Understanding INSAS

bagha
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 32
Joined: 27 Jan 2001 12:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by bagha »

saw a SPG guy today.
had a MP-5... but i was surprised to see that it wasnt the standard MP-5... rather it was more like the PDW version.. with optical sights and of course the twin magazine clipping.
and barely a minute later i saw an armed guard in front of some big shot's house with a MP-5... this time the standard version but with a collapsible butt.
how many MP-5s are there India??? next i will be seeing the friendly constable Pandeyji with one.
:D
davidn
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 82
Joined: 30 Jan 2001 12:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by davidn »

the reason western armies went in for the 5.56 LMGs such as the SAW was weight, pure and simple. A fully loaded M60 could weigh as much as ~18kg.
Add onto this extra ammunition weight, plus standard infantry equipment, and you have one very bogged down trooper. The 7.62mm machine guns reduce a soldiers mobility and vastly increase the fatigue factor.

By contrast a 5.56 SAW comes in at just ~6-7kg.

Of course, the problem with that is that they found it nowhere near as effective as the heavier caliber guns.

But on attachments for the INSAS...
I saw the pictures of the scopes and they looked great.
But how bout Special forces requirements, such as silencers, grenade launchers, laser targeters, torches, shotguns fittings etc. on the INSAS
Are there any plans/programs to make any of these?
bagha
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 32
Joined: 27 Jan 2001 12:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by bagha »

hmmm more on user verdict of INSAS:
met two NCOs of Signals. Posted in Jammu since Dec 13.
they hate the INSAS. they miss the SLR and mention the AK47 and their eyes light up... these guys love the AK47.
by the way i met those guys on train. you almost always meet someone from the armed forces in trains, and i cant help talking to these guys.
of course they first think you are a spy... seriously, they think you are a spy, they ask you about how you know so much etc.. then they start talking about their rifles, their equipment, what they think about the current situation and of course about the poor pay.
the problem with INSAS is that the plastic parts fall off and the internal parts are very prone to damage, and any damage means the INSAS is out of action. the perception is that the INSAS is a very complicated weapon..
i have yet to meet any soldier who is happy with the INSAS.
and everyone i have met is like ready to start an AK fan club.
JCage
BRFite
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Oct 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by JCage »

by the way i met those guys on train. you almost always meet someone from the armed forces in trains, and i cant help talking to these guys
You can say that again.Journeys on Bharatiya Railways are always interesting.

Regards,
Nitin
Joeqp
BRFite
Posts: 111
Joined: 11 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: Earth

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Joeqp »

hmmm more on user verdict of INSAS:
met two NCOs of Signals. they hate the INSAS.


Since the INSAS is in fairly widespread use (SBM probably has the numbers), I'm sure some statistical analysis can be used to analyse the failure reports and see if there really _is_ a problem, or is it just perception.
Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Raj Malhotra »

As I am trying to use this thread to collate info on INSAS, so I think it should live for some time more,

up
ehsmang
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 54
Joined: 12 Nov 1999 12:31
Location: ndelhi
Contact:

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by ehsmang »

thathta astu
Guest

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Guest »

Had spoken to a few army guys in a central indian army base. They had handled Ak-47, FN FAL as well as the INSAS.

They told me that the AK is a good weapon for counter insurgency operations, where accuracy isnt much of a factor (most encounters are close combat) and the burst rate and caliber of the weapon matters most. With a higher burst rate and calibe (7.62mm) the AK is a more potent weapon for close combat.

However, as an infantry weapon, the AK SUCKS. They said that they had absolutely no chance of hitting a target more than 250 meters out with an AK-47. The recoil is so great that accuracy goes to the dumps. However, according to them, the INSAS scores as an infantry weapon because it is highly accurate upto 400 meters and is ideal for infantry encounters where engagements are generally not close quarter. Most of the people I spoke to were quite satisfied with the performance of the INSAS.

The Ishapore was somewhere in between, being a decent infantry weapon, but a lousy counter insurgency weapon due to slow rate of fire and cumbersome size.

Overall after talking to quite a few army men, their choice was as follows

For infantry operations (Primary role of the army)
1. INSAS
2. AK-47
3. FN FAL

For counter insurgency ops
1. AK-47
2. INSAS
3. FN FAL
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by ramana »

rahuls thats a fair assessment.
Raj, can we please now have an article on the INSAS?
Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Raj Malhotra »

Rahul, very interesting

Now can you comment on maintenance requirements and accuracy?

Ramana I believe rupak and LNS were dealing with certain aspects of this issue.

in any case it will just be rehash of my above posts.
putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4665
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by putnanja »

SEAL survived until his gun jammed

Report from CNN says that the navy SEAL's gun jammed and then he was killed. What is the standard issue for a US navy SEAL ?
davidn
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 82
Joined: 30 Jan 2001 12:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by davidn »

Originally posted by Ravikumar:
SEAL survived until his gun jammed

Report from CNN says that the navy SEAL's gun jammed and then he was killed. What is the standard issue for a US navy SEAL ?
Ravi, i heard that he had a LMG when he fell out, probably a SAW

Otherwise,( taking an educated stab in the dark :D ) for most US special forces ops i think the Colt M4 is the weapon of choice
member_2802
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 1
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 05:32

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by member_2802 »

allright, enough discussion about ishapore, insas,
sterling,druganov etc...but can somebody tell wat exactly is 7.62mm MSG-90 rifle is used for in the Indian Army....looks deadly and advanced though....
regards
Anupam
Raj Malhotra
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 26 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Raj Malhotra »

IIRC MSG is a cheaper sniper version compared to PSG-1/2 of G-3 German rifle whose action is based on German machine guns of WW II.
Div
BRFite
Posts: 341
Joined: 16 Aug 1999 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Div »

Originally posted by Ravikumar:
SEAL survived until his gun jammed

Report from CNN says that the navy SEAL's gun jammed and then he was killed. What is the standard issue for a US navy SEAL ?
SAW is the generic term (Squad Automatic Weapon) for the M249 - a license produced FN Minimi.

http://milpics.web1000.com/Army/Weapons/img_Bel_Minimi.html
http://milpics.web1000.com/Army/Weapons/img_Minimi_Para.html

The box mag has a 200 round belt.
Div
BRFite
Posts: 341
Joined: 16 Aug 1999 11:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Div »

In seeing many of the news photos of the IA mobilisation, I must say that the majority of soldiers seem to have transitioned to the INSAS. Only the paramilitaries seem to still be sporting the FN-FALs.
Himanshu
BRFite
Posts: 191
Joined: 25 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: Mumbai

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Himanshu »

I was searching this topic in the Mil-tech Archive forum.. but found it here in this forum

Mods: Please don't let it go off
VKumar
BRFite
Posts: 730
Joined: 15 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Mumbai,India

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by VKumar »

Met a couple of guards of B**** regiment at a gate. They were carrying INSAS.They were very happy with it, advantages:-
1. Light weight
2. Long range
3. Carries 30 rounds in a plastic clip which enables user to see how many rounds are left.
4. Can be fired in single shot or three burst.
5. Unlike AK does not empty on full automatic and therefore steadier to use.
6. Comes with a telescopic version for sniping.

They said it was ready before Kargil but was launched during Kargil.

earlier there was a problem with a part that used to break but now that has been rectified.

Nice to see the soldiers happy with their weapons.
debjani
BRFite
Posts: 114
Joined: 06 Aug 2000 11:31
Location: calcutta, west bengal, india

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by debjani »

To allay the doubts about AK 47 over the INSAS, it is suffice to say that there is always apprehensions and ‘cribs’ about a new weapon when viewed against a time tested weapon unless the new weapon is vastly superior. INSAS and AK 47 are both good weapons and comparable.

A new weapon will have birth pangs, but these are not that serious that it requires rethink.

The philosophy of 5.56 is that it was felt that a weapon that does not kill but decapitates, has greater value than killing. If a soldier is wounded [5.56] it creates a whole lot of problems both during the battle, during the campaign and post war rehabilitation. Compared to this, if a soldier is killed outright [7.62], then it is just one enemy soldier less and nothing more.

Imagine a soldier hit and wounded during an attack. He falls and obviously writhes, howls in pain. Imagine the psychological effect on the others who are pressing on in the attack and not yet hit. The bullets are flying all around, the tracers zooming past and missing, artillery shells bursting close and dangerously! Another soldier fall, howls in pain. The others would surely like that immediate attention is given to the fallen comrades. What is to be done for these soldiers down? Should one detach personnel from the bayonet strength to evacuate them? If that is done maybe the bayonet strength required when on the objective, may fall a wee bit less and the attack fails? Then it would mean another attack and more wounded soldiers, waste of operation time and manpower and the defender knowing the attacker’s intention may reinforce and a larger force would be required and this may upset the complete schedule of the further offensive. If attention is not given to the fallen soldiers the morale would sink since they would be worried that if they too were hit, they would be left wherever they are hit till the attack is over. Not a pleasant thought for anyone in the attack. Compare this will a kill. If a soldier is killed, the ‘problems’ are eliminated since it will only mean a decent cremation or burial after the attack is over. The 5.56 thus adds a moral and a morale dilemma.

Next. The soldiers who have been hit are evacuated to the FUP {Forming UP Place] where the troops for the second phase are forming up. Note one cannot take them elsewhere since it is only safe to move along the path through which the attacking troops have gone in the minefield. The second phase troops see these wounded men still howling, bleeding and writhing in pain. Imagine what goes through the minds of the second phase troops!

The wounded now have to be evacuated rearwards. The troops bandaged and forlorn move in vehicles. Reinforcements are coming up from the rear. They see these mangled men. Imagine their mental condition on seeing these men, especially those who have never seen battle. Imagine their state of mind when they are sent in to attack! That is why the wounded and the refugees are not sent along the same route as the returning convoys.

Once the war is over, these men return to the village. While they maybe treated as heroes, yet the crippled and maimed are not great for publicity for further recruitment! Also, the government has to spend a large sum for their rehabilitation.

Compare this with a weapon that kills. No residual hassles!
Abhisham
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 86
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Abhisham »

INSAS is indeed quite a good Rifle
I mean it has survived the harsh weather of Siachen. Beginning There were breakage problems with the holding mechanism and due to bad processing of the gun barrel in extreme cold conditions it used to burst at times. But most of those problems had been sorted out and we should remember that its been service quite some time now. IT was a good decision and a good precursor to induct the rifle during kargil time otherwise the rifle would still have been going trials and would have seen service quite late down the line.

According to an officer on the trial team of the INSAS the army had proposed for a replacable barrel type gun. Later it was guranteed that the gun barrel should be able to sustain 100,000 rounds before replacement. I myself fired quite a few 100 rounds of the INSAS and there were problems at time due to jamming. But it was not due to the Rifle itself but mostly due to the bullet. a small dent can jam the bullet inside the gun and anyone who has served in the NCC will know the bullet quality of Indian factories. But the rifle itself is quite rugged and light.

Accuracy is not at all a question as around 250meters+ its accuracy is quite good. For an ametuer like me shooting cans was something of a dream. Doing that on the FN-FAL was quite difficult. A person can get aquainted to an INSAS very quickly but same's not the case with AK series. They have lot of recoil and you need to spend quite some time to get the weapon under control. But full automatic burst mode on the AK is very suitable for Urban and counter insurgency operations as there is no shortage on amount of ammunition but same's not the case during a war when you need to conserve every single bullet.
I mean firing a 3 short burst on the SLR is quite difficult. The rifle tends to go out of ur control and pitches upward. This is not the case with INSAS you can control the rifle even in burst mode. As a whole early introduction in to the armed forces has made the rifle shed all its problems eventually.

Abhisham
Guest

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Guest »

I found this info from an outdated PMO page on Shram awards for the year 2000 (Broken URL of PMO page: http://pmindia.nic.in/shramawards/shram2k_list.htm working .... google cache link.) It'll be good if this stays on the BR archives.

this person got a Shram Bhushan award for fixing machining/CNC problems on the INSAS project resulting in recurring annual savings of INR 56 lakhs!
S H R A M B H U S H A N

SHRI ASIS BHATTACHARYYA

Shri Asis Bhattacharyya was born on 7.11.1959 in Distt. Murshidabad, West Bengal. He studied up to Higher Secondary and achieved professional qualification in the Tool & Die Maker Trade, S.A.T. in Tool Maker Trade and AUTO CAD and AUTO LISP from Regional Computer Centre, Jadavpur University. Presently, he is working as CNC Operator.

Rifle Factory, Ishapore procured a number of CNC Machining Centers against 5.56mm INSAS Rifle weapon project. These machines were commissioned at RFI during the year 1994-95 in Proj. Shop-II. Shri Bhattacharyya was associated with the commissioning engineers of the firm since Jan. 1994. He volunteered to work in the then upcoming CNC shop foregoing his regular incentive earnings. This shows the inclination of the person towards learning newer technology.

The CNC Machining Centres were supplied by M/s Mysore Kirloskar Ltd. of M/S STEINEL, Germany. The manufacturer assured 16.97 minutes cycle time for manufacture of the component Barrel Extension for the 5.56 mm INSAS Rifle. However it was found that the actual cycle time was 21.29 mins. M/S Mysore Kirloskar claimed that the cycle time was more since indigenous tools were deployed.

Shri Bhattacharyya took up the challenge of reducing the cycle-time. He did a lot of experiments with toolings, cutting parameters, the part-programme, sequence of operations and alternative cutting operations for achieving a particular dimension etc. all alone, often overstaying beyond duty hours for approximately two months of hard and totally devoted working to carry out experimentation. He undertook a self-study of the Tool manufacturers’ catalogues. Ultimately, he was successful in bringing down the cycle-time to 17.04 minutes inspite of two additional operations due to change of drawing requirements. This resulted in a saving Rs.56 lakhs per annum.

Shri Bhattachayya changed the sequence of operations, combined certain operations, eliminated some of the tools and replaced some tools by a different tool in order to reduce the rejection percentage and to improve quality.

Shri Bhattacharyya noticed that the existing ‘CAM Programme’ required 80% of the jobs rework resulting in loss of 600 mandays per annum. He took the challenge of decoding the part programme and amended the programme by replacing the R-parameters by a practical value, thereby saving of two men who could be shifted to productive area.

Shri Bhattacharyya prepared a process control card used in quality control which has helped in timely input of tool wear compensation data to the m/c and thereby reducing the rework. The benefits arising out of this are qualitative in nature.

Thus, Shri Asis Bhattacharyya through his innovations, has contributed a lot in improvement of quality and quantity of production of Barrel Extension for 5.56 mm INSAS Rifle through CNC route.

Only because of his sincere initiative, innovative thinking, dedicated hard work, exemplary zeal and enthusiasm Rifle factory, Ishapore is making recurring yearly direct saving of Rupees 56 lakhs to the Govt. exchequer. <img src="http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif" alt="" />

Top
debjani
BRFite
Posts: 114
Joined: 06 Aug 2000 11:31
Location: calcutta, west bengal, india

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by debjani »

No more posts. We have understood the INSAS?
member_201
BRFite
Posts: 425
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 05:32

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by member_201 »

Ray Saheb, we will never understand the INSAS ;)
Adi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 42
Joined: 01 Nov 2001 12:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Adi »

This is one of those "Ramayan ki katha ho gayi aur poochcha kaun hai Ramachandra" situations, but could someone explain the difference between automatic and semi-automatic modes to a newbie like me?

Please note that my combat experience is limited to playing Counter-Strike on the computer :D - perhaps even add INSAS to the array of weapons!)
S Bajwa
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 91
Joined: 11 Jan 1999 12:31
Location: pittsburgh,pa, usa
Contact:

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by S Bajwa »

difference between automatic and semi-automatic modes to a newbie like me
Automatic is when you press the trigger and empty the whole magazine. (as long as trigger is down rounds fly).

Semi-automatic is an option to convert automatic gun to a single shot at will.

I believe in automatic mode INSAS fire three rounds when a trigger is pressed each time.
Ashwin B
BRFite
Posts: 137
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Ashwin B »

This could be trivial, but definitely trivia.
I spoke to a petty officer on board INS Tarangini when she was in NYC. Asked him about the armaments and he said that among an SLR (don't know which one), and some 9mm pistols they carry an INSAS on board as well.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by shiv »

Originally posted by sbajwa:

I believe in automatic mode INSAS fire three rounds when a trigger is pressed each time.
INSAS can be configured to fire in 3 different modes - single shot - i.e you have to pull the trigger each time you want to fire; three-round burst - when you can pull the trigger as much as you like but it will fire only three rounds and you can let off 3 more by releasing and pulling the trigger again. These are the only two modes required by the Indian army for the assault rifle AFAIK

INSAS is also available in in the full-auto mode where you press the trigger and the rifle keeps firing until you release the trigger or the magazine is empty. The OFB stall at Aero India had a display of a (sleek black colored) INSAS para rifle and an INSAS assault rifle with levers that offered all 3 modes of fire. Apparently these models were for export (at that time to Nepal and Swaziland)
Adi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 42
Joined: 01 Nov 2001 12:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Adi »

Thanks sbajwa and shivji.
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by ks_sachin »

all you INSAS experts -
Here is some latest info:
THe NV and telescopic sights have been provided for the INSAS however the mounting is such that everytime they are used the weapon has to be ranged again (sights have to be recalibrated).
Also slung on the right shoulder the weapon's safety catch has an irritating ability to move. even a slight movement from the firing selector jams the weapon. THis is still a problem.
THe magazine is such a problem that a friend of mine who has just finished a stint in the valley remarked that they should make it a canteen item.
the LMG is not very popular as well because of its mag being under the weapon. It is not very confortable to position or rather leaves the user with less options insofar as firing position is concerned.

Abhisham and other guys - please comment. Because the weapon has a terrible image among most soldiers i have met. They would like it recalled and worked on perhaps. One young offr did mention that in the valley it is a weapon that comes somewhere near the last choice of weapon.
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by ks_sachin »

PS before some of you guys jump on me - i am posing to you what was told to me and I would back the opinion of these guys i have spoken to implicitly.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by shiv »

Sachin - there have been many complaints about the INSAS - and I suppose sorting out such glitches is part of the development process of a weapon.

Now that someone has told you that there is a problem - nobody can say "There is no problem". Problems as always, need to be sorted out.

I actually spoke to some Jawans (all carrying INSAS) at the army day show in Bangalore prior to Aero India 2003. Some praised the weapons and others had no complaints. It's a mixed bag all in all, and any complaints will have to sorted out - and cannot be dismissed either as untrue or as a reason for saying that everything is bullsh1t.

Ther is one more thing I have to say that is more difficult to say. Officers of the Indian armed forces may be dedicated and disciplined, but they are Indians to the core and suffer from all the "perceptions of things Indian" problems that many other Indians do - discussed at length under variuos Indian psyche threads.

I have heard one IAF officer (whose name is known to many on this forum) call all Indian technology "Khadi gramodyog". But I have heard others upbeat about exactly the same stuff. So you have 4 different combinations of people and equipment: Good equipment, faulty equipment, critical people, satisfied people.
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by ks_sachin »

Originally posted by shiv:
Sachin - there have been many complaints about the INSAS - and I suppose sorting out such glitches is part of the development process of a weapon.

Now that someone has told you that there is a problem - nobody can say "There is no problem". Problems as always, need to be sorted out.

I actually spoke to some Jawans (all carrying INSAS) at the army day show in Bangalore prior to Aero India 2003. Some praised the weapons and others had no complaints. It's a mixed bag all in all, and any complaints will have to sorted out - and cannot be dismissed either as untrue or as a reason for saying that everything is bullsh1t.

Ther is one more thing I have to say that is more difficult to say. Officers of the Indian armed forces may be dedicated and disciplined, but they are Indians to the core and suffer from all the "perceptions of things Indian" problems that many other Indians do - discussed at length under variuos Indian psyche threads.

I have heard one IAF officer (whose name is known to many on this forum) call all Indian technology "Khadi gramodyog". But I have heard others upbeat about exactly the same stuff. So you have 4 different combinations of people and equipment: Good equipment, faulty equipment, critical people, satisfied people.
Shiv first of all mine was not a critique of the weapon but rather accounts of problems that users have told me. I wanted a situation report on some of these issues from the likes of Abhisham who seemed to have used the weapon albeit just to fire a few rounds.
Secondly ~I iknow that weapons go through development process and evolve and this is a point I have made repeatedly on BR many times. However I did not expect you to think that I do not know this - many others yes which is why I post rather infrequently.
With regard to the third point about the khadi gramudyog bitty - these guys I met are my friends prescicely because they are not like the offrs you mentioned.
Incidentally one of them is now in Bangalore and if you are interested I could arrange a meeting. There are lost of valley related issues that would be of interest to BR. Obviously some stuff is classified but a first hand perspective of the psychology of serving there would be quite interesting.
Let me know what u think. I will also flag this to LNS.
kind regards
Guest

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Guest »

Shiv,Sachin

cAn you check your emails and respond to me.

Regards
Subra
merlin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2153
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: NullPointerException

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by merlin »

Shiv, if you ever get to meet this gentleman, how about a small informal BR meet at that time?
debjani
BRFite
Posts: 114
Joined: 06 Aug 2000 11:31
Location: calcutta, west bengal, india

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by debjani »

Khadi Gramodyog? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Now, I dead through laughing. A good one!
rajkumar
BRFite
Posts: 423
Joined: 22 Sep 2000 11:31
Location: London U.K
Contact:

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by rajkumar »

One thing which no one has said anything about is the fact that one of the true advantages of the INSAS is the conventional design i.e. not a bull pup and as such the weapons drills do not need to change when people switch from the SLR to the INSAS.

I had a hell off a time switching from the SLR to SA-80!!!. It meant having to go back to drill school, not to be recommended IMO. :D
Abhisham
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 86
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Abhisham »

ok here goes

-AFAIK the problem about jamming was related to the quality of the bullets. Thats what the general openion i got from the officers. Not only the INSAS even the HMG and LMG have problem with the rounds. As a matter of fact 7.62mm rounds for the Dragaunov are specially imported.

In cold climate the main problem the soldiers mentioned had to do with the breakage of the plastic casing due to harsh temperature. And the pastic case once broken cannot be fixed unlike the ones used in SLR etc.

LMG just started getting issued during the standoff around the fourth month or so. LMG is accurate but yes it does have problem with the positioning of the rifle as not only the magazine is fed from below the gun bipod is also not fully stable as the joint has something like a ball bearing type that can also rotate the gun in trasverse direction to facilitate the user. But ironically doesn't give any advantage over the bren L4. But regarding INSAS LMG you can use the same big magazine pouch for the INSAS Rifle and even the sight is interchangable and to some extent a few parts.

regarding the firing mode lever which is arranged on the trigger guard just above and its quite possible that it might interfere when palced on the right shoulder. But its is quite common in all rifles so i don't seem that there should be problems with it. According to me the problem could be traced back maybe to the maintainence of the rifle. If its quite rugged enough to begin with then you require force to change the selection from say safety to single shot to burst mode i hope you understand what i mean.

Scope - Ok scope is good serves the purpose. To add to that is dirt Cheap. But they could have improved on it as its all plastic cover rather than the ones used on the Draganauov which are metal based. Heavy but much sturdy. But its illogical to say that every time you change the scope you have to recalibrate the site. I don't agree with it. Because the officer changed the site for me on two different guns and it seemed to have no problems with accuracy. But yes they could have made the whole system more rugged. It serves the purpose but it looks fragile.

To tell you the truth INSAS is indeed a good rifle. I can gurantee and say that if the Indians had marketed the same rifle with a foreign name and said its imported the soldiers would have liked it, same goes for many officers. Trust me its a mindset of ppl towards indian equipment. Its so that when an indian soldier gets used to one kind of LMG or a rifle its hard for him to change over espeically when its being replaced by indian indegenous equipment. Especially when he would have heard stories from his superiors or more senior ppl about the success of say SLR or AK-47. AK-47 carries a name with it that is indisputable, even if the rifle sucks it has to better than the INSAS and a small rumor can spoil thigns badly. Who says BREN LMG doesn't have problems or in a matter of fact HMG or even SLR. They all jam, even the freaking AK-47 jams. To take a similar case the new Koflach shoes given in siachen were refuted by the soldiers as they had changed the design from the usual orginal one and thus a rumor spread that its indian shoes and blah blah and then finally the thing was rejected withought going thru much of a trial. To add to that koflach company even sued the indian govt for spoiling its name. :mad: and now what? no shoes? a soldier has such a bad mindset that he would rather wear a old koflach than a new ASOLO which are quite good themselves.

But atleast one thing is sure about the INSAS. No one has questioned the accuracy of the rifle and i have always good good comments about it. Thus the major factor is fulfilled. Problems will stay only to be removed slowly. Just for thinking sake the rifle has only seen service for less then 5 years. Give it some time.

Hope it answeres some queries.

Abhisham
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by ks_sachin »

THanks Abhisham,
That is what I wanted.
Kind regards
sachin
PS: One question what weapons are the PAras and SF being issues with. Where are the Tavors going.
Whos is being issues with the folded butt INSAS.
Adi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 42
Joined: 01 Nov 2001 12:31

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by Adi »

Could someone do a hard comparison between the INSAS and say, the Colt M4A1? Muzzle energy, effective range, accuracy etc?
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Understanding INSAS

Post by ks_sachin »

The firing mode lever was a problem identified. It could be maintenance as you said but what the officer said to me was that the lever is too sensitive and even a slight movement leads to the rifle not firing. But i take your word for it.
Regardinf the recalibration I too was surprised but then if you say this is not so then i shall investigate this further. Any what ranges were you firing at. The officer was categorical that once the scope has been used the sights on the rifle have to be zeroed. I am not talking about the scope.

please clarify
kind regards
sachin
Locked