Arjun thread

[Raymond]

[quote]“The last I checked IA was working with DRDO and still wanted 3500 Arjun's; reading the language one way or the other is a exercise which can be done ad infinitum with no value --.â€

[kvraghav]

Quote:
“The last I checked IA was working with DRDO and still wanted 3500 Arjun's; reading the language one way or the other is a exercise which can be done ad infinitum with no value --.â€

[Nayak]

There is too much of ignorance about how things real world being passed off as a virtue in this thread.

Next person who makes a allegation -- back it up.

Saying TI consistently failed? What consistently -- is it failing today? What was the rate of failure? How many failed -- how long did it take to fix the problem. Provide all the details.

Okay a quick check on Google revealed the following -

Times Of India

India, of course, is quite unhappy with Russia's failure to maintain delivery schedules of contracted weapon systems, provide uninterrupted supply of spares and its propensity to jack up costs mid-way through execution of agreements.

Even the T-90S tanks have attracted some criticism for being "too expensive", apart from having initial technical glitches with its missile and thermal imaging systems.

Ya allah what is this one more report on the T-90 problem, it is a conspiracy I say !!

Monsters and Critics

But army officers complained that the existing T-90S tanks faced 'recurring' technical problems which were adversely impinging on the force's operational preparedness.

Senior armoured corps officers said the Catherine thermal imaging (TI) camera supplied by Thales of France that is the 'heart' of the T-90S' fire control system (FCS) had 'repeatedly malfunctioned' in the excessive summer heat of the western Rajasthan desert where the MBTs frequently exercise and will eventually be deployed.

Officers operating the tanks said temperatures in excess of 60 degrees Celsius inside the tank had rendered between 80-90 FCS 'unserviceable' over the past four years. Attempts to rectify them had so far largely proven unsuccessful.

In one armoured regiment in Punjab, an alarming 30 of 40 tanks were 'off-road', lamented an officer, declining to be named.

In keeping with the army's qualitative staff requirement for the T-90S MBT that stipulated a 'longer range, shimmerless' sight, Peling of Belarus with its IG 46 sight entered into partnership with Thales to integrate its Catherine TI camera thereby giving the FCS a range of around three kilometres. The FCS components were 'mated' by the manufacturers at the T-90S Nizhny Tagil factory in the Urals in Russia.

When problems first began to emerge in 2003 with the TI camera - priced at around Rs.20 million ($444,444) per unit, a fifth of each tanks cost of Rs.117.5 million - they were replaced as the T-90S were under warranty till March 2004.

Thereafter, with the warranty having ended, the army has grudgingly conceded that it is looking to 'rectify' the FCS problem, but has not yet come up with a viable solution.

The T-90S licensed production that was to commence at HVF in 2006 has also been 'considerably' deferred, armament industry officials said.

This was due partly to engineering problems encountered in locally assembling the MBTs, but principally because of integrating the Catherine TI camera with the 1G 46 sight.

The first locally assembled T-90S tanks began rolling out of the HVF in January 2004, but within a short period they too faced FCS problems in hot temperatures.

Ammunition for the T-90S is also posing a major problem.

Initially, the T-90S fired Russian-made AMK-338 and AMK-339 rounds, but these were soon exhausted in training and presently the tanks are without any ammunition as their 125 mm smoothbore guns have not yet been configured to fire the locally manufactured AMK-340 rounds.

Production of the MBT's 9M119 Refleks (NATO designation AT-11 Sniper) missiles by the state-owned Bharat Dynamics at Hyderabad in southern India that was scheduled to begin earlier this year is also behind schedule as several test firings have been unsuccessful. Russian technicians have been called in to assist.

Alongside, armoured corps officers said the T-90S had been 'overexposed' in exercises 'to suit the individual whims of senior commanders' anxious to show off the new tank and were already in need of major overhauls.

Each tank has a maximum life of 650 cycles on the onboard rev-counter with static running equalling one rev per hour while travelling 17.5 km equalled one rev. But, in less than four years, most of the T-90S tanks had completed 600 revs.

Army officers also bemoaned the shortage of T 90 simulators of which there were only five at present, in order to extend the MBT's operational longevity.

One more on the TI malfunction

Defense Industry Daily

The move to assemble 330 more T-90 tank kits from Russia is even more remarkable given the in-service difficulties noted by MosNews’ report. These include repeated heat-related malfunctions of the fire-control system’s key Thales Catherine thermal imaging (TI) camera, lack of cooling systems leading to uninhabitable temperatures over 60C degrees (over 140F) inside the tank, and reports that at least one armored regiment had an in-service rate of just 25% for its T-90s.

India Defence has a complete article on the glorious performance of $hitcans Link

During repeated manoeuvres in the Thar Desert, where the T-90s will ultimately be deployed in the event of an outbreak in hostilities, prolonged use under high temperatures had already "knocked out" between 80 and 90 of the Catherine TI cameras, rendering the FCS "unserviceable." The officers said that repeated efforts to correct the problem had been without success.

The TI cameras are the crucial "eyes" of the tank’s systems. At Rs 2 crores each, the Catherine TI system comprises almost one-sixth of each T-90’s total cost of Rs 11.75 crores.

The T-90s are also facing a host of other problems, including a nearly exhausted inventory of ammunition. The tank’s 125 mm smooth-bore gun is electronically configured to fire imported Russian AMK-338 and AMK-339 shells, the supply of which has run out after innumerable exercises.

Surprisingly, the T-90’s gun has not been configured to fire the Indian-made AMK-340 shells. These shells have turned out rather dubious in quality, with over 150,000 rounds having to be destroyed, leading to the loss of over Rs 700 crores. Some AMK-340 shells have even burst inside the tanks, killing crew members, in at least one instance at Babina. Armoured Corps officers said many tank crews, who feared the shells would explode inside the barrel, had refused to use the faulty ammunition, and when forced to do so went to elaborate lengths, enabling them to fire from outside the tank.

It was the T-90’s missile-firing capability that had initially clinched the Army’s decision in its favour way back in 2001. But with BDL unable to supply the missiles and the endless problems with the fire control system, many officers are of the view that the tank appears little better than the already proven T-72, also currently in service with the Indian Army.

When those $hitcans go up in flames in the middle of the desert let me see how much cheerleading you will do to defend them.

[Sanku]

No value is maybe what you think but I think as I have already said it clearly indicates the biased position of the army.

I think it is more a reflection of your biases on Army than Armies on Arjun.

The army gives a BS report to the parliamentary committee in such language to deliberately show the arjun in poor light and that doesn’t change anything on the ground??If a army trial report that could have effect on the products future isnt a part of the "ground" then I dont know what is.

The language oh the language; the H&D of the language. Can we get over the "language" and get to the contents -- other than one quote of the Army officer there is no other Army language -- unless the parliamentary scribes are also Army now.

Secondly other than the issue of "engine failure" vs "transmission failure" can you POINT to SINGLE OTHER point which is I your opinion incorrect?

Btw..first you said that the language was probably drafted by a babu and when pointed out that it was the army itself you shift to saying that the language on an official report doesn’t matter?Shifting goalposts?

I am saying its not Army except one sentence -- and in any case language does not matter -- two things. Can you tell me how do you know that other than the quote the language is Army's?

Because you assume so? Anything more definite than your assumptions?

.

Yes today, that quote was made on Nov 2007.There is nothing as complicated in that quote as wishlist or such stuff as you want to prove.He was talking just and only just about the Arjun plain and simple.Yes I agree the chief cannot be a fanboy,but then again if the quote be put to scrutiny the chief would have a hard time substantiating it.

Well you are taking his statement out of context -- he was talking about the future in context of what we have today.

Secondly; is the Arjun manufacturing world class? Is manufacturing not a part and parcel of tank?

It may have been corrected now but the simple point was that there were very serious problems with the T-90 and the army was more than enthused to bring it upto the mark which is not the case with arjun considering the arjun has more significance and importance to India.

Bah and bah again -- IAs job is to equip itself to fight the war best -- and if it needs weapons that DRDO cant give it in time -- it is more than justified to ask for outside weapons. IAs job is simple and clearly defined -- protecting the borders is its first task -- they will make sure that they do everything to support Arjun but their task first and fore most in defence.

And T 90 is not the same as Arjun irrespective of what you may claim -- even Army says the very same thing.

Not hardly.An import is fine but a faulty import?

What fault import? What are the problems today

And whatever the credentials of the makers be it is the finished product that matters.I can give many examples where an established maker turned up with a lemon and a inexperienced maker turned up with a world class product.

Yes; but they have to prove their credentials; no one takes their word for it.

Whether they are being used successfully is neither for you or me to judge.

Really you are not so eager to be equally leinet with IA for Arjun are you?

Double standards here?

We have just seen it being used.In anycase even if they didn’t have problems they clearly did when they were trialed in the desert some years back.And THAT is the point I am talking about.That problems existed but due to hand holding by the army it was possible to correct them to a large degree.

Well who disagrees; and the point is Army is doing the same with Arjun; how is it not?

Point in favour of IA needing to support indigenization.

But obviously -- however the picture is not 1 or 0; indigneization must happen with right products -- not just for the sake of it get any thing in.

The last report was during ex ashwamedha ,last year.And lets not forget the chief now wants to put a cooling unit in the T-90.How is that even going to fit on the can?

Just like it fits in Russian T 90s whats the big deal. Again you are talking of problems during deployment.

Yes but still a miscalculation by the army for which now they are having to pay.

Well it was never my case that Army is perfect -- the question is that whether what they do is withing acceptable bounds of reason.

No I am comparing the tank which was deployed despite having problems and another one which wasn’t.

Not a valid comparison -- when T 90 was deployed it came from a long line of working tanks with very few problems which were quickly sorted.

Arjun is today where T 90 was in 2000; may be not even that (in terms of being a mature product)

Don’t mix it up.the shell problem was an issue

Shell problem is a Indian problem mostly -- it not working with T 90 was something because of software changes that were needed.

and the army having to buy more 347 tanks due to delayed tech transfer another.

Huh that we know; so imports have this problem this is not a IA testing problems is it

Who knows whether the TI performed according to specs?Who knows how much fuel the T-90s used up?who knows what the temperature was inside the tank?Who knows whether the tank crews suffered from any medical problems because of the heat?who knows whether the munition the T-90 fired would go through any modern ceramic armour?

If you dont know why talk about it? Speculate but keep within bounds then.

The army says it works; if you dont agree post proofs rather than mud slinging. In terms of T 90 mutions. Which tanks is it up against?

There is a wide gulf of difference between “what is acceptable standard for a productâ€

[Sanku]

[quote="kvraghav"]Quote:
“The last I checked IA was working with DRDO and still wanted 3500 Arjun's; reading the language one way or the other is a exercise which can be done ad infinitum with no value --.â€

[Sanku]

defend them.

Nayak you have not posted anything worthwhile than dredging up really OLD links which have been discussed to death already.

Perhaps you can try reading -- I will recommed Avids post on the Arty thread which is now in trash can.

For all the great Arjun and all -- not even 50 have been made till date -- if the T 90 does go up in flames in the desert -- (no doubt against horded masses of Challengers and Panthers and what not) -- it will be because it was the only thing which could get there -- because Avadi was still trying to figure out how to fit the seal on a HSU reading Renks blueprints.

Wake me up when Avadi actually makes enough tanks which can be used.

[Nayak]

Oh jeez, sounds like I am posting on PeeDeeEff or on the deaf and dumb fora on how the T-90 is the greatest thing after sliced bread.



We can wake up a person who is asleep, but how do we wake up a person who is pretending to be asleep ?

Bah, this thread should be closed. Army has dissed Arjun and it will be the poor shmucks putting their 3rd world necks on the line. When a war does happen, we will all get teary eyed and write unending eulogies on how our heroes went on a faulty $hit can to war and got their musharrafs handed back to them.

The cycle of stupidity continues. Army has become a crack-head addicted to imported toys. It needs to get into rehab quick and asap.

[kvraghav]

Wake me up when Avadi actually makes enough tanks which can be used

ohh and untill now i thought avaidi made the t-72 and will be making t-90 in india.

[Nayak]

Nayak you have not posted anything worthwhile than dredging up really OLD links which have been discussed to death already.

Wake me up when Avadi actually makes enough tanks which can be used.

Oh jeez, I am sorry bwana that my links could not meet your high intellectual standards.



This thread need Jc on board to knock some sense. Till then sayonara.

[Nayak]

Wake me up when Avadi actually makes enough tanks which can be used

ohh and untill now i thought avaidi made the t-72 and will be making t-90 in india.

Selective application of logic and reasoning onlee.

Avadi + T-90s = winner
Avadi + Arjun = heh, let them learn to how to handle HSU.

I told ya, this is turning out like the deaf and dumb fora thread.

His arguments are similar to a agent whose pockets have been lined by russkies.

[Sanku]

Oh jeez, sounds like I am posting on PeeDeeEff or on the deaf and dumb fora on how the T-90 is the greatest thing after sliced bread.
.

PDF yes I think so too --
No doubt primarily due to your own posts and comprehension skills.

If you didn't notice -- no one is comparing T 90 to Arjun -- except the fan boys -- what the real men are comparing are product maturity; fit ment into IA model -- testing needs -- threat perception etc etc.

In any case if you missed this so far T 90 was inducted before Arjun was ready -- As Shivji tried hard to point out over the noise -- EVEN IF ARMY GIVES ARJUN A 1000 tank order today -- they are not coming before 2020 in anycase; so we need both.

And those who dont grok it -- WORKING WITH DRDO means construtive feedback too.

BUt of course since none of the arm chair generals have a stake in dying at the battle front they can advocate that IA accepts tanks just because they come from DRDO and says "Made in India"

oh the echeendee.

[vina]

Wake me up when Avadi actually makes enough tanks which can be used.

Ah.. But they can't make any unless they get orders, can they. A chicken and egg story, no ?

Arjun needs to clear reliability tests -- which once is done by DRDO with Renk or whatever the tank will be accepted. If DRDO cant -- Arjun wont make it.

Funny , how the T-90 never had to clear any reliability tests! So the Belarus guys go to the French to get a TI, integrate it and sell it to the Indians via the Russians .. and that SOB fails in hot weather , making the thing entirely useless.

When you could do the same thing with the Arjun FCS (the older version) , which failed in hot weather tests and damned the Tank, why coudln't you do that with the T-90 ?..

Also, when the torsion bar suspension broke in the T-90, why did the Army paint it as an "Arjun" failure via DDM ?

[Sanku]

Wake me up when Avadi actually makes enough tanks which can be used.

Ah.. But they can't make any unless they get orders, can they. A chicken and egg story, no ?

Army asked for 124 tanks in 2000 guess how many have been made so far? Guess what was the original schedule -- guess why? Is it all IAs fault?

Read the parliamentary report

Funny , how the T-90 never had to clear any reliability tests!

As I said; please show where the T 90 and Arjun have different tests?

Dont compare deployed tank problems to induction test issues.

Also, when the torsion bar suspension broke in the T-90, why did the Army paint it as an "Arjun" failure via DDM ?

Can you say where the Army said so? Which report?

[Nayak]

If you didn't notice -- no one is comparing T 90 to Arjun -- except the fan boys -- what the real men are comparing are product maturity; fit ment into IA model -- testing needs -- threat perception etc etc.

Huh, product maturity, come on bwana, you pulling out management terms out of musharraf without coming out with a single solid point on how T-90s fits into our model.

In any case if you missed this so far T 90 was inducted before Arjun was ready -- As Shivji tried hard to point out over the noise -- EVEN IF ARMY GIVES ARJUN A 1000 tank order today -- they are not coming before 2020 in anycase; so we need both.

Army suffers from a disease called brochuritis. It kept revising the GSQR umpteen number of times. Army should have placed orders for Arjun long back and work out the kinds in product iterations.

And those who dont grok it -- WORKING WITH DRDO means construtive feedback too.

Constructive feedback - yes
Pulling the rug and lying to Parliament - no

BUt of course since none of the arm chair generals have a stake in dying at the battle front they can advocate that IA accepts tanks just because they come from DRDO and says "Made in India"

Err, as taxpayers we are entitled to answers onlee.

oh the echeendee.

What echendee!! see the number of posters who are $crewing your posts.

[kvraghav]

As I said; please show where the T 90 and Arjun have different tests?

and could you please show me where the T 90 and Arjun had SAME tests?
sorry if the links for these tests also has already been posted

[Sanku]

Selective application of logic and reasoning onlee.

Of course you should know since you are so good at it.

Avadi + T-90s = winner

Says who?

Do you know that Avadi today is currently assembling T 90s? Even which it could not do fast enough so that complete tanks have to imported.

Avadi + Arjun = heh, let them learn to how to handle HSU.

Do you know that Arjun is a mangnitude more complicated design? Or is assembing a Mig 21 and manufacturing a F 22 the same to you?

I told ya, this is turning out like the deaf and dumb fora thread.

His arguments are similar to a agent whose pockets have been lined by russkies.

As long as people like you will post BRF will suffer so I am afraid.

[Sanku]

Avid it didnt even take a six months.

Ah the debate which is a shouting match rather than a listening, understanding, and knowledgeably debating.

I am told the debates within DRDO and User meetings are similar. No wonder!

IMHO - Arjun is a classic case of inadequate project scoping and management. Much like the monster ERP projects in corporate sector that have "failed". The definition of failure is a little too stringent and not universally agreed on. You do not meet any of the following 100% then it is considered failure: 1) user requirements, 2) time schedule, 3) cost schedule.

The anti-Arjun folks always point to failure on all three fronts. Technically speaking they are right. Strictly speaking it did not meet any of the three when it was first rolled out. Now - it has only not met the second two conditions.

Much like the corporate folks who blame the consultants for "failure" of their multi-million dollar ERP systems, the anti-Arjun folks forget that the single root cause for problems pertaining to Arjun is poor specification of user requirements and their constantly changing nature. The consultants - DRDO in this case - in their eagerness to get the project and their overconfidence in technical abilities - came up short in their responsibility to educate the customer (Army) about true consequences and all challenges in meeting these requirements.

At the end of it all - the project has indeed come to fruition. It meets the all of the current user requirements, albeit over schedule and cost. Beyond this point it is more the issue of management. There's enough sour feelings on both sides (DRDO and Army) and these are justifiable from their own points of view. Folks should find opportunities to talk to these folks in depth rather than armchair opinionate on BR.

Coming to the issue of T-90, here's my understanding from what little I do know. Continuing with the earlier analogy of the IT projects and infrastructure -- the T-90 is much like new modern mainframes - they are new, modern, extremely capable, able to handle newer technology, but at the end of the day they are legacy systems. Arjun on the other hand is the modern new system which has nothing legacy about it. Components from it may be used to augment the legacy systems during transition. Comparing the two is like debating who is stronger the Tiger or the Cheetah - just because both are "Cats" are they comparable?

From my discussions with friends in IA the reasoning for purchasing T-90s is as follows:
1. They are part of the migration path from legacy systems to "new" system. They upgrade the legacy system while new system is rolled out in phases and other kinks (logistic, training, etc. etc.) are encountered and managed. Note that these kinks are not necessarily product related but process related.

2. Given the large number of T-72s in IA armor, consider the time requirement for retraining existing crews to man Arjun. The officer training for developing new strategies which leverage the capabilities of Arjun, and in some case unique abilities. All of this would take a lot more time, and in the mean time there was urgent need to field muscle. T-90 being closer cousin of T-72 (Bengal Tiger to Sumatran Tiger) it was easier to add this muscle. For those debating whether we should have upgraded the T-72 or bought the T-90, this debate is not new for any system displaying similar characteristics - i.e. upgrade or buy newer a bit more powerful system. Question is whether T-72 could truly be upgraded to T-90 level. Sticking a new processor into an old motherboard just because you can does not necessarily get you the same capability or performance.

3. Ramping production of Arjun to supply at the rate needed would also take time. Considering #1 and #2 above, it is a smarter strategy to phase in "new" system.


Well that is my 2c. Somehow I am sure we will be back to this point in the circle in oh let's say 3-6 months because someone will refuse to accept the complexity of the system and jump the gun again. Rolling Eyes

[kvraghav]

Do you know that Arjun is a mangnitude more complicated design? Or is assembing a Mig 21 and manufacturing a F 22 the same to you?

Does this mean t-90 is mig-21 and Arjun is f-22??

[Sanku]

Do you know that Arjun is a mangnitude more complicated design? Or is assembing a Mig 21 and manufacturing a F 22 the same to you?

Does this mean t-90 is mig-21 and Arjun is f-22??

I was hyper extrapolating to make a point -- but yes -- Arjun is a different class tank -- a much heavier; more modern and more capable one.

[Nayak]

Do you know that Arjun is a mangnitude more complicated design? Or is assembing a Mig 21 and manufacturing a F 22 the same to you?

Does this mean t-90 is mig-21 and Arjun is f-22??

Dont know why Mig 21 and F22 have to be brought in for comparison.

Btw, this gem is being deliberately ignored.

Armoured Corps officers said many tank crews, who feared the shells would explode inside the barrel, had refused to use the faulty ammunition, and when forced to do so went to elaborate lengths, enabling them to fire from outside the tank.

With T-90s, our brave jawans have to fire from outside the tank. With Arjun, they are constrained to fire from within the tank.

[Sanku]

As I said; please show where the T 90 and Arjun have different tests?

and could you please show me where the T 90 and Arjun had SAME tests?
sorry if the links for these tests also has already been posted

T 90s only had induction tests; since the manufacturer had done basic tests and shared it with IA; for DRDO IA is doing all the basic tests that Russia had done on its own.

Arjun was finally ready in 2000 when IA accepted that it will be inducted and asked for 124 to check for reliability etc.

Usually this means that IA now has no problem with the tank and design per se but wants enough tanks to work out the bugs in the system on both its and manufacturing ends.

People seem to read the report as this is a test for induction -- it is not -- it is a test for relibality.

124 tanks where supposed to be given by 2006. And even today only 53 are ready.

[kvraghav]

With T-90s, our brave jawans have to fire from outside the tank. With Arjun, they are constrained to fire from within the tank.

That explains why IA didnt want a A/c inside because all jawans would be OUTSIDE

[Sanku]

With T-90s, our brave jawans have to fire from outside the tank. With Arjun, they are constrained to fire from within the tank.

Nayak if you could actually read -- you would be able to know that the issue is the shell with T 72. because the shell was poorly made by OFB

How can it be T 90 since T 90 cant even fire the shell as per the same report?

Trust the fan boys to be low on comprehension

Nayak I think you have skated on thin ice long enough -- please desist posting trash on such threads.

[Nayak]

Nayak if you could actually read -- you would be able to know that the issue is the shell with T 72.

Huh, that is a configuration issue isnt it ? That is a short-coming isnt it ? You still havent answered the points raised above.

How is that Avadi manufactured $hitcans are okay, but Avadi manufacture Arjuns are a no-no ?

Trust the fan boys to be low on comprehension

I aint no fanboy, but when I see BS I call it out. Right now my BS meter is flashing bright red.

[Sanku]

I aint no fanboy, but when I see BS I call it out. Right now my BS meter is flashing bright red.

Nayak try and read up older posts; and if you pull out of your Mush; perhaps the BS meter will be better placed to detect the reality.

For starters go to a dictionary and read up meanings of
Assembly
Manufacture

We can take the next baby step on the thin ice then.

and please please read about the shell -- the shell that OFB is shitty -- explodes inside tanks (T72) thus folks are afraid to use it. As far as T 90 is concerned at the time when the report was written the software did not even allow the shell to be loaded; how can it exlpode inside? What does software configuration on T 90 have to do with shells exploding in T 72.

Why is it so difficult to get even the basics into your head?

[d_berwal]

[quote="Raymond"][quote]“The last I checked IA was working with DRDO and still wanted 3500 Arjun's; reading the language one way or the other is a exercise which can be done ad infinitum with no value --.â€

[Raymond]

Sanku,

[quote]“I think it is more a reflection of your biases on Army than Armies on Arjun.â€

[d_berwal]

Wake me up when Avadi actually makes enough tanks which can be used.

Ah.. But they can't make any unless they get orders, can they. A chicken and egg story, no ?

well with orders also they cant make ne thing.... pls look at the history of AVdhi and all the programmes under its belt....

-- Avdhi has never met the timelines of nay production schedule
----- T-72 overhaul and manufacturing both are delayed over years

-- BMP - 1 & BMP 2 production was always behind schedule

-- Even Vijayants suffered from massive Time delays resulting in yrs of delay

-- Lets not Talk of T-90 and ARJUN production (ARJUN delay already 8yrs... T-90 1yr delayed)

Arjun needs to clear reliability tests -- which once is done by DRDO with Renk or whatever the tank will be accepted. If DRDO cant -- Arjun wont make it.

Funny , how the T-90 never had to clear any reliability tests! So the Belarus guys go to the French to get a TI, integrate it and sell it to the Indians via the Russians .. and that SOB fails in hot weather , making the thing entirely useless.

When you could do the same thing with the Arjun FCS (the older version) , which failed in hot weather tests and damned the Tank, why coudln't you do that with the T-90 ?..

Also, when the torsion bar suspension broke in the T-90, why did the Army paint it as an "Arjun" failure via DDM ?

T-90 user and reliablity trials were done in 97-98-99 time period

-- IA went for French TI not belarus guys.......... it failed in user trials.. but got reported b y DDM in exercises ,,,, some TI did fail in operational service but the issue was user training and maintainence not faulty product integration......

-- If T-90 TI's were unoperational how come they have been taking part in every exersise from their induction

[Igorr]

Funny , how the T-90 never had to clear any reliability tests!

OMG, do you really believe T-90 was purchased without reliability tests? There are even a video on YouTube about the tests in Rajasthan.

So the Belarus guys go to the French to get a TI, integrate it and sell it to the Indians via the Russians .. and that SOB fails in hot weather , making the thing entirely useless.

French TI was asked instead of Russian by Indian side after all tests and before purchase. It's the last thing, that was asked, and this moving was made by Indian side demand. So it's true, French TI was not over reliability tests before been purchased.

Also, when the torsion bar suspension broke in the T-90, why did the Army paint it as an "Arjun" failure via DDM ?

How the probability of this fault? We dont know. An isolated cause doesnt mean.

[kvraghav]

If T-90 TI's were unoperational how come they have been taking part in every exersise from their induction

I thought there was difference betwen unoperational and having problems.The drive systems of Arjun are also not unoperational but are said to have failed after certain distance

[kvraghav]

Hi Igorr,
One question please,i think russia has a rule that they cant buy foreign arms isint it???Sorry if this is off the topic.just always wanted to clarify this.

[Sanku]

Now wait a second!Your thinking that there is nothing to the language is okay but me thinking there is a problem with the language is a bias?

Its not a personal attack -- you are one of the few rational posters here -- but where you see a problem where I can not -- I suspect a bias you are saying IA is biased; I am saying perhaps you are biased about IA. Again not a personal attack.

What one army officer?The language in the report!This report was prepared by the army and dictated by a senior in the army.The parliamentary scribes have nothing to do with it.

Ok this is a serious mismatch between my understanding and yours -- As far I know -- this report is made by parliamentary scribes for MPs based on the deposition of all parties to the committee. The report also quotes DRDO et al.

May I ask on what basis are you saying this is a IA report? Honest question.

Oh please …how about 3 HSUs failed after their prescribed service life was over and still shown to be a problem?And no, it matters even if it’s a single problem.Because you just cannot give false testimony be it single or a dozen.

True no false testimony -- but as we agreed lets hold our horses before deciding on that point. My point is simple -- there in only one point of contention today which may very well be confusion between transmission and engine.

HSU was only in Shukla's blog.

I am not just talking about the quote.I am also talking about the language in the report.

Ok lets leave the language out - please - we will be stuck in a rut on the language debate.

Now that’s a twist.For your eyes again:
What we have today is a mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Kapoor said last November.

There is no relation to manufacturing in the quote at all!BTW is the T-90 manufactured using higher technology by the same Avadi??

T 90s are assembled not manufactured. I understand you will see the difference.

Secondly the chief says technology -- in common parlance techonology encompasses all including manufacturing tech. No need to twist anything rather obvious.

And equipping itself with an obsolete tank is the best way to protect the borders!

Against T 80s and the chinese tanks? You bet T 90 is more than enough.

And they are clearly not doing their best.

Perhaps but IMO well enough; "best" is a mythical beast.

Please..I have began to take whatever the army say with a sack of salt nowadays.Ofcourse its not the same.Its better.

Uh mis communication -- the issue is not whether the tank is better per design -- its whether its ready.

TI camera still is a problem.torsion bar still is.And when it was imported it had a host of other problems.Still it was taken.

No these problems were solved with 2-3 years including TI; the torsion bar is a urban legend no proof. Compare this with Arjun's ramp up time (which BTW is not a criticism of Arjun but is somewhat expected)

Whos taking their word?On the other hand you were advocating that we take Russians word since they are established manufacturers.

I am sure they shared data; I am not asking that their "word" be taken. T 90 serve in the Russian army too correct. There were induction tests too.

Well I am being lenient with the army even if they imported a lemon, saying okay fine they are working things out with that or atleast trying to!

Please T 90 is a working tank more than suitable for what it is meant to do.

>fasifying testimony and report to the parliament

We agreed to not jump to conclusions on this,

>trying to show the arjun in poorlight even if it means the army chief making controversial and unsubstantiable statements to the media

Nothing the Army chief said was untrue unfortunately all facts and he was not doing anything to run down the tank. Just stating facts.

>refusal to carry out comparative trials

How is this a problem? Army accepts that there is no comparison even without tests? So why the test?

In any case what would the test show -- that Arjun is a heavier tank with better gun and better armor? Everyone accepts that today . And how will that change anything on OFB front?

>refusal to order more than the initial 124 units
etc.

A very correct decision -- let 124 tanks be built on schedule first and with quality -- Avadi is not running anywhere its a captive plant. Whats the hurry?

Infact the army is acting like a child throing tantrums like “substandard tankâ€

[Sanku]

If T-90 TI's were unoperational how come they have been taking part in every exersise from their induction

I thought there was difference betwen unoperational and having problems.The drive systems of Arjun are also not unoperational but are said to have failed after certain distance

Yes and if it is within what the manufacturer claimed it is not a problem. In this case it was probably much before the design.

This is not the T 90 case.

[kvraghav]

In this case it was probably much before the design

Design of the tank or design of the TI?

[Sanku]

In this case it was probably much before the design

Design of the tank or design of the TI?

I was taking of the Arjun -- in case of TI it was initial issue of integrating products from different sources; unlike in case of Arjun where IA has a central node for Arjun for TI + T 90 had to figure that one itself with help of vendors.

[kvraghav]

All i can say after this is if merkava-1 was given to IA instead of IDF there wouldnt have been a merkava-4.We will have to start somewhere.if we can expect 50% offsets from foreign vendors,why cant we have 20% indian equipment.

[Sanku]

All i can say after this is if merkava-1 was given to IA instead of IDF there wouldnt have been a merkava-4.We will have to start somewhere.if we can expect 50% offsets from foreign vendors,why cant we have 20% indian equipment.

that statement is not based on any facts but merely your biases; I can also say that if DRDO was asked to make Merk 1 we would have still be waiting for 1 while everybody was on 4. But that statement would also be equally intelligent as the one you made.

[kvraghav]

ok but why dosent agni or prithvi not have any reliability issues.To the best of my knowledge they were also made by DRDO.and are you saying merkava-1 didnt have any reliability issues????[/quote]

[Sanku]

ok but why dosent agni or prithvi not have any reliability issues.To the best of my knowledge they were also made by DRDO.and are you saying merkava-1 didnt have any reliability issues????

Agni and prithvi are not comprable to tanks. The missiles are fired once -- the tanks are supposed to work in and out many times; they have different techonological needs; further DRDO is not one behmoth different parts are different in execution.

Thirdly the reliablity issue many not even be a "DRDO" issue but a OFB+DGQA issue.

Did Merk 1 have reliablity less than what IDF wanted or less than best in class? I dont think so.

Will Arjun soon be best in class of reliablity -- I am sure the MoD will come down on Avadi like a ton of bricks if that is not the case. With time it will be so

(That is assuming we have a half decent govt)

[kvraghav]

Agni and prithvi are not comprable to tanks. The missiles are fired once

do you know what happens if a nuclear missile fails mid way??

Did Merk 1 have reliablity less than what IDF wanted or less than best in class? I dont think so

the defence minister had to step in for this i will post a link very soon.sorry should have not put this without a link but i am sure i have read this