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shiv
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PostPosted: 05 May 2008 10:19 
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Even the most low tech nations buy high tech aircraft and the suppliers ensure that such an embarrassing early accident does not occur - because it is not in their interest.

Unless we are absolutely determined to self flagellate and say that the India connection has made the hawk crash - a short period of reflection will reveal that most new inductions into India do not crash in this manner. Please check the IAF records of new inductions and many in service flying machines before shooting off thunderbolts.

Whichever way you look at it there is massive egg on BAe's face. Egg on BAes face means that they will be looking to hive off blame on someone else - as they have done in the past (vide Jaguar accident stories on BR).

So any stories we hear about blame need not necessarily be the truth...

This Hawk should not have crashed. There are already reports of less than 40% serviceability and the induction ceremony "only just" managing to get 4 aircraft in the air.

Something is amiss and I am glad that something has cropped up without loss of life. May this be the harbinger of a long and safe record of the Hawk in the IAF.
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HariC
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PostPosted: 05 May 2008 21:10 
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shiv wrote:


Whichever way you look at it there is massive egg on BAe's face. Egg on BAes face means that they will be looking to hive off blame on someone else - as they have done in the past (vide Jaguar accident stories on BR). .



The only way BAe can get out of this is if its pilot error. One might say that there is a brit pilot involved and thus BAe should take the blame, but some reports are talking about both pilots being indian and not british. Can someone confirm if a british pilot was involved or not?

This report http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080501/j ... 213646.jsp says both were 'experienced flight instructors' and makes no mention about a british pilot. It also confirms that the aircraft is 'not recoverable'.
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John Snow
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PostPosted: 05 May 2008 21:20 
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I was implying the same that it better be manufacturing problem, hence the egg on BAe (BeA web logic)!.

To say the componenents did not fail will ead to more complicated but BAe would want it otherwise. If the British Pilot was involved all the more better, because they cant pass the blame down the Ganges rather than problem at the mouth of Thames
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karan_mc
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PostPosted: 05 May 2008 21:40 
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if the crash is due to poor spares or workmanship can India demand brand new jet from bae for free other wise this hawks will crash like dead ducks this planes will be flown by trainee pilots and many accidents around the world with jet trainers have 50% crash rates due to pilot errors
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Meena
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PostPosted: 06 May 2008 11:57 
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Both pilots were Indian.
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Nayak
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PostPosted: 06 May 2008 12:11 
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SHE WHO KNOWS wrote:
Both pilots were Indian.


DELETED BY ADMIN
REASON: IRRELEVANT
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Meena
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PostPosted: 06 May 2008 12:28 
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Both pilots are alive, one however has a broken jaw and burns. But the important thing is they are alive. Regardless of the nationality.

Someone asked about the seats, they were Martin Baker.
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shiv
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PostPosted: 06 May 2008 14:06 
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[quote="SHE WHO KNOWS"][/quote]

The username SHE WHO KNOWS is not accetable as per forum guidelines. I was tempted to change it to "Me-Knowk-she" (Meenakshi), but I will probably change it to Meena if you intend to make any more forum posts.

Please see the forum guidelines.
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Meena
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PostPosted: 06 May 2008 14:22 
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Meena will be fine. How do I go about changing
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shiv
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PostPosted: 06 May 2008 14:31 
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SHE WHO KNOWS wrote:
Meena will be fine. How do I go about changing


I will have to do it for you it's done now. You should be able to log in as Meena
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SaiK
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PostPosted: 06 May 2008 17:29 
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We bought the Trainers to prevent the Crashers, Now We need to buy the Prevent-ors to prevent the Trainers. Babu-garu-doom.. will safely hide it under dilli billi carpets, and help the web logic folks to escape.. perhaps, with strings of complex ddm articles that will lead to now.here..

ps: she who knows, should actually be she-o-naaz./ot
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HariC
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PostPosted: 06 May 2008 21:36 
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<SARCASM ON>Now that we know both pilots are indian - time to start the blame game by shifting the reason for the crash from the 'non-existant british pilot' to the 'sub-standard british spares' * </SARCASM OFF>

*completely ignoring that the CoI is yet to come out with any findings, and that we have completely ruled out pilot error using our extra-sensory perceptions.
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Juggi G
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PostPosted: 07 May 2008 08:58 
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[url=http://www.indianexpress.com/story/306366.html]IAF Clears Hawk Trainers to Fly Again
[/url]IndianExpress
Quote:
IAF Clears Hawk Trainers to Fly Again
Manu Pubby
Posted online: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 at 2350 hrs

Flight Record to be sent abroad for scrutiny

New Delhi, May 6: India’s newly-acquired fleet of Hawk trainers, which had been grounded after a crash at the Bidar airbase last week, have been cleared to fly again, even as the Indian Air Force (IAF) is yet to determine the cause of the accident.

Officials confirmed that the trainers resumed flying operations on Tuesday, indicating that no major technical fault has been identified in the British origin aircraft. However, the investigation has not yet determined whether it was a human error or a technical fault that brought down a trainer on April 29, while it was taking off on a routine sortie.

Sources said the inquiry will take time to come up with a definitive answer as data from the Flight Data Recorder (FDR), which registers all communication and flight details, has not been examined. The sources added that India does not have the facility to read its contents.

The FDR will now be sent abroad, most likely to South Africa where it was manufactured, for detailed examination. Till then, IAF is not ready to comment on the reason behind the crash, saying it could be both a human error or technical fault.

The aircraft in the IAF remained on the ground for close to a week as investigators tried to figure out the reason behind last week’s downing of a fighter trainer seconds after it took off from the Bidar airbase.

The IAF had grounded the entire fleet of 10 Hawk trainers and was extremely cautious about the investigations as the newly acquired trainers had been facing serviceability issues and problems with spares.

The Air Force was also concerned about the safety of the trainers after it discovered that the brand new aircraft contained parts that appeared to be old and used. The IAF also said the aircraft had a low serviceability rate of only 40 per cent.

However, with the Hawk trainers flying again, the IAF will breathe a sigh of relief as its pilot training programme will be put back on schedule.

IAF plans to kick-off the first training course with the new trainers in July once a total of 20 aircraft arrive at Bidar.
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Jaeger
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PostPosted: 07 May 2008 14:10 
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^^ we don't have the facility to access the data on the FDR?! is that a fact? does anyone else find this a little ludicrous?
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Ved
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PostPosted: 07 May 2008 21:41 
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Jaeger wrote:
^^ we don't have the facility to access the data on the FDR?! is that a fact? does anyone else find this a little ludicrous?

Not yet, presumably.
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Igorr
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PostPosted: 08 May 2008 00:27 
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Jaeger wrote:
^^ we don't have the facility to access the data on the FDR?! is that a fact? does anyone else find this a little ludicrous?

I loved further sentention even more: "But it is shocking that there should be a question mark on supply of spares for new aircraft. It indicates that the contract was not negotiated correctly".
- So, jentlemen, if the supply of spares is broken, it's onree coz you didnt rightfully negotiated it. :mrgreen:
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shiv
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PostPosted: 08 May 2008 04:47 
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A little birdie tells me that the first HAL built Hawk has flown.

The black box of the crashed I believe was made in South Africa and is being sent there for decoding.
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Meena
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PostPosted: 08 May 2008 10:57 
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Shiv is correct. The first Hal flew for 1 hr 20min on wed no problems. Congrat's to Hal. This was not a complete build for Hal we have to wait a little longer for that.
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SaiK
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PostPosted: 08 May 2008 11:33 
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Isn't there a std or mil specific std for FDR reading and writing? whats the issue?
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Arun_S
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PostPosted: 08 May 2008 12:05 
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Meena wrote:
Shiv is correct. The first Hal flew for 1 hr 20min on wed no problems. Congrat's to Hal. This was not a complete build for Hal we have to wait a little longer for that.

Meena, you seem to speak with insider knowledge. Would you mind introducing yourself to people on this thread?
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Meena
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PostPosted: 08 May 2008 12:08 
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Sorry no can do. Certain security issues stop me.
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Surya
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PostPosted: 08 May 2008 18:49 
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welcome meena.
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Vivek K
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PostPosted: 08 May 2008 19:04 
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Igorr wrote:
Jaeger wrote:
^^ we don't have the facility to access the data on the FDR?! is that a fact? does anyone else find this a little ludicrous?

I loved further sentention even more: "But it is shocking that there should be a question mark on supply of spares for new aircraft. It indicates that the contract was not negotiated correctly".
- So, jentlemen, if the supply of spares is broken, it's onree coz you didnt rightfully negotiated it. :mrgreen:

Well, Igorr, wait and watch how quickly corrective action "per the terms of the contract" will be taken without the demand of a couple of billion dollars extra.
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Drevin
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PostPosted: 08 May 2008 19:11 
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:rotfl:
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Phil Camp
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PostPosted: 08 May 2008 21:58 
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traditionally if an aircraft is involved in an incident, the unit is sent back to the recorder OEM for data dump. This may be the only way of getting usefull info out of it due to damage. The Patna 737 recorder was sent back to L3 communications. At a local level there should be a ruggedised lap top to dump the data onto. Sometimes military aircraft recorders employ algorithams to encrypt data.

Best wait for the court of inquirey on this one. If a pilot survived intact in the aircraft, then it should be in reasonable shape. So the fault should be found.

Regards Phil Camp :eek:
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Arun_S
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PostPosted: 09 May 2008 00:42 
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If the recorder is in resonable shape local readout should be easy as cake walk. But in case of damage, one have handle the unit very carefully like a baby in ICU. For units that have water seepage (ocean crash) it is more involved, and specialist care at OEM vendor is right thing to do.

Even in the case FDR unit is smashed to pieces (say a vertical crash) the IC's can be recovered and the silicon probed to pull out data. (New FDR use IC's). Irrespective of the IC or metal tape media, the recording encoding has lots of digital data redundancy to allow reconstruction from even mauled up pieces of the whole media.

But in this case given that Pilots made it out alive the units very very likely is in good shape for connectorized local readout.

India and Indian have to come out of "Jugaad" mentality and do it right the first time. More so after paying primium Pounds to her majesties arms supplier. The days of buying Mig21 for Rs. 98 lakh are long past, the jets cost big big money and local readout system onleeee cost TINY money.

Someone must have earned a slap on the wrist for this.

JMT
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shiv
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PostPosted: 09 May 2008 05:42 
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Arun_S wrote:
the jets cost big big money and local readout system onleeee cost TINY money.

Someone must have earned a slap on the wrist for this.

JMT


Arun saab - there is no point in acting like mine is bigger in this area. A Hawk crash so soon after induction is big stakes and while everyone will want unexpected problems to be corrected forever, nobody will want to own up for errors.

You know and i know that when an event occurs in country X involving an entity (person or object) of country Y, country Y will always and invariably complain that the findings of the analysis in country X were incompetent or flawed if country X does the analysis of country's Y's maal. They will ask for access to the evidence and complain that it was damaged irreparably by country X if the findings are unfavorable to country Y. This is as true of FDR analysis as forensic investigations or post-murder autopsies. (which are all variants of the same idea). Once that happens it becomes a "mine is bigger" or "yours is smaller" game.

One way to reduce the likelihood of this is to have the manufacturer of an FDR give guarantees that he will retrieve the recoverable data and you can ask for unfettered access to data for independent analysis by anyone.

So the idea that "We onlee must analyse the FDR" is only likely to be met with disdain and/or skepticism if the analysis is unfavorable to BAe because millions of Pounds and hundreds of jobs in Horwich or Warton are at stake. The issue is more than one of a single plane and a couple of pilots. It becomes a political issue. And India's record in this has not been that great - Rajiv Gandhi bought helicopters to save Maggie Thatcher's political career, if you recall. Same dynasty on the throne now..
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Meena
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PostPosted: 09 May 2008 10:58 
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Shiv, I totally agree with you but on a few points no. One is the Horwich that place has nothing to do with the Hawk. The second is Maggie Thatcher dynasty she was a Conservative. They now have a Labour Government.
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shiv
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PostPosted: 09 May 2008 14:18 
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Meena wrote:
Shiv, I totally agree with you but on a few points no. One is the Horwich that place has nothing to do with the Hawk. The second is Maggie Thatcher dynasty she was a Conservative. They now have a Labour Government.


No No - same dynasty in India. Rajiv Gandhi - Sonia Gandhi (backseat driving)
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rrao
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PostPosted: 09 May 2008 20:02 
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Arun Saar! HAL korwa div has developed soild state FDRs for use in Jags, LCA etc... These FDRs store data and voice on heavily ruggedized flash memory sticks!
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CPrakash
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shiv wrote:
[ Rajiv Gandhi bought helicopters to save Maggie Thatcher's political career, if you recall. Same dynasty on the throne now..


The Westland W30s were procured literally free - it was paid for with the aid money from the british government. Though the helicopters ended up as junk, we havent lost money (But we did lose quite a few lives). The W30 was junk.

The Hawks are excellent, but we also paid a packet for them.
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Arun_S
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PostPosted: 10 May 2008 09:13 
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rrao wrote:
Arun Saar! HAL korwa div has developed soild state FDRs for use in Jags, LCA etc... These FDRs store data and voice on heavily ruggedized flash memory sticks!

HAL Korwa ... that refreshed fond memories. Nice campus. Very humid place though, and the guest house has big mosquitoes. Those days they made avionics for Jaguar. In fact because of political reason alone the HAL facility was built to buy the local vote bank. HAL Lacknow is till today is partly utilized.

But the best thing about that is the Railway station is so modern and so well furnished and much money is spent to keep it the as the Patronized Dhimmi constituency of the current Royal Family of Indian (aka Amethi Railway Station, the home constituency of the Gandhi Family (now that Kashmir proper is gone to terrorist dogs and the current Gandhi Family there will be lynched or assassinated). Where else in India one can get off the train at 1 Pm at night and on the spot get an an air-conditioned retiring room! They have quite a few such AC room on the rail station)

Of course all trains fast or slow have to pay obescience to Amethi Railway station and do a proper scheduled stop. :twisted:
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Arun_S
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PostPosted: 10 May 2008 09:21 
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CPrakash wrote:
shiv wrote:
[ Rajiv Gandhi bought helicopters to save Maggie Thatcher's political career, if you recall. Same dynasty on the throne now..


The Westland W30s were procured literally free - it was paid for with the aid money from the british government. Though the helicopters ended up as junk, we havent lost money (But we did lose quite a few lives). The W30 was junk.

The Hawks are excellent, but we also paid a packet for them.


Did the British Govt also pay money for the lives of Indian aircrew and passengers killed by the Westland junk they sold to India?
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Jagan
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PostPosted: 10 May 2008 21:48 
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Quote:
Did the British Govt also pay money for the lives of Indian aircrew and passengers killed by the Westland junk they sold to India?


One of the least known facts was that the pilot killed in the first Westland W30 crash was the 1971 War hero - Gp Capt HS Manget (Maha Vir Chakra) who flew the damaged Sukhoi fighter bomber back to base after a missile hit. Those who went to the IAF museum and saw the peppered sukhoi tail section will know who I was talking about.
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Arun_S
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Jagan wrote:
Quote:
Did the British Govt also pay money for the lives of Indian aircrew and passengers killed by the Westland junk they sold to India?


One of the least known facts was that the pilot killed in the first Westland W30 crash was the 1971 War hero - Gp Capt HS Manget (Maha Vir Chakra) who flew the damaged Sukhoi fighter bomber back to base after a missile hit. Those who went to the IAF museum and saw the peppered sukhoi tail section will know who I was talking about.


Oh my GOD !!!!!!!
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HariC
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PostPosted: 12 May 2008 20:04 
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The Hawks are on hold for now
(www.mailtoday.in)
By Suman Sharma in New Delhi



THE GOVERNMENT has put on hold the delivery of 14 British- built Advanced Jet Trainer ( AJT) ‘ Hawk’ Mk- 132 after one of the trainer aircraft crashed last month. This is a major setback to the £ 1.1 billion ( Rs 8,800 crore) AJT deal for 66 Hawk AJTs signed by the NDA government in 2004.

Twenty- four of these were be bought off the shelf, 42 were to be made by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited ( HAL), while the rest would have come directly from the UK. Air Officer Maintenance ( AOM), Air Marshal K. M. Rama Sundara had told the ministry, following a visit to the BAE Systems in UK to inspect the aircraft, that most of the parts used in the AJT were “ obsoleteâ€
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gopal.suri
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PostPosted: 12 May 2008 21:39 
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PIB release says opposite

Indian ministry of Defence clarified that the supply of Hawk aircraft has not been stopped. In fact, two aircraft arrived from UK today, along with large quantities of spares, as per the induction plan. Two more aircraft would arrive in the first week of Jun 08.

After the accident on 29 Apr 08, aircraft were not grounded, but flying was temporarily suspended for carrying out checks to rule out critical system failure especially as the aircraft are under warranty. This is a normal practice followed after any serious accident.
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Meena
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PostPosted: 13 May 2008 11:48 
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New Delhi, May 12: A lady flight cadet trainee of the Indian Air Force was killed on Monday afternoon when the Hindustan Piston Trainer aircraft she was flying crashed near Medak in Andhra Pradesh. The crash took place north of the Air Force Academy at Dundigal in Andhra Pradesh. The lady flight cadet was undergoing training at the Air Force Academy. IAF officials in New Delhi confirmed that she trainee had "sustained fatal injuries" and died in the crash. An enquiry has been ordered into the cause of the crash which took place at about 3 pm on Monday. This is the fourth IAF aircraft to have crashed this year so far. In the past five years, 62 IAF aircraft have crashed.

It may be recalled that less than two weeks ago, on April 29, a brand new Hawk 132 Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) aircraft of the IAF had crashed at Bidar Air Force Station in Karnataka. But in that case, the pilots had escaped unhurt. Meanwhile, two Hawk aircraft arrived from UK on Monday along with large quantities of spares as per the induction plan, IAF officials said. Two more Hawk aircraft would arrive in the first week of June.

The Hawk AJT which crashed last month was one of the 10 new aircraft inducted into the IAF just two months ago in the presence of the Indian defence minister, IAF chief and British high commissioner. The Hawk aircraft is manufactured by BAE systems, a British company. The total contract signed between the government and BAE systems provides for the procurement of 66 Hawk AJT aircraft out of which 24 will be bought "off the shelf" from BAE while the remaining 42 will be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. after technology transfer from BAE.
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Arun_S
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PostPosted: 13 May 2008 12:12 
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Meena: BRF culture requires posting the source of the news, and if available on web its url. Please culturally assimilate with BRF ethos, and provide the source / url link to the above news.
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Meena
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PostPosted: 13 May 2008 12:59 
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Sorry.

http://howrah.org/india_news/12100.html
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