Bharat Rakshak

Arun saar, you were planning to write articles regularly for other prominent news sites....it is better to take-control and present your view as an authority on the subject than letting the cut & paste writers steal and provide bits & pieces as their own...side benefit: lot of motivation for students to learn, follow the foot steps and have fun.

There is a Singha going great guns on rediff boards too, This one though seems to be our goat rearing cousin from across the western border

Arun:

No need to be upset. As they say "Immitation is best form of flattery". Whenever there is a new missile test, all these plagiarists know where to look for. The keys to their brain are in your hands now.

Ab aap langoor to kisi bhi tarah se nacha sakte hain

I must admit that I do not normally read your posts at all, but this caught my eye. Your idea of fun, I must say apparently did little to improve the level of knowledge of anyone on here.

In other words you trolled him off the forum.

Congratulations on your victory, He is a loss to BRF. He was (and remains) my personal friend and I am warning you not to play clever crossword puzzle games with identities on BRF with this "scramble" business.

Please respect.a person's right to keep his name private if he wants to do that. Not doing that is trolling too.

Arun, Whats is the operating time for PSLV 4th stage engine?

Would you be kind enough to say what relevance this information has to this thread? TIA

Their reaction---not reacting is also a reaction---is exactly in line with their approach. To express a a visible vocal reaction is to acknowledge the importance of this test. It is to show that it worries them. Internally they may be worried, or even panicked, but to show it is to confer more respect to India than they would like to.

In fact, the sharp reaction during Shakti tests of 1998 was somewhat out of character. They lost their cool.

This is also a discussion worth having on the "Understanding the Chini mind".

By the way, the reaction is country-specific. If it was Japan testing, the reaction would be different. I for one think it is an excellent response from the Chinis. Shows smartness.

From previous AIII post flight news reports: FS ~ 60 secs and S/S ~ 110 secs. Now reentry from 350km at ~ 4km/sec equals 87.5 secs ignoring other effects. So total active time= 60+110+88=258 secs. So the coast phase was quite long! (800-260secs = 540 secs) Wow!

Agni V, next goal of DRDO

[quote]Hyderabad, May 9 Indian defence scientists have embarked on Project Agni V, to develop a long range missile that can strike targets upto 5000 kms.

“The development process has already begun and in the next two years, the design should be readyâ€

So what happened to Agni-4? Does Agni-3 SL become Agni-4?

From : http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SPACE/spa ... -pslv.html

PS4 burn time: 420 seconds



Can explain the 87.5 sec in more details?

I rakoning is 185 second boost phase and 42 second for reentry; that leaves 573 sec coasting.

For 350km apogee, 800 second flight and 3000Km range clearly a 2 stage
missile cant do in physics no matter how hard one tries. Only a an upper stage atop second stage that fires after considerable coast interval can the 3 datum reported by Avinash Chandra be meat.

With the upper stage added, there are many solutions possible. One of them is:

In this confign:

1) The 2 stages fire at a (suboptimal) trajectory that will take the nose cone(containing the payload and a small upperstage { SUM 120-14} motor) to 350 Km, but that will require 431 sec flight time. Left to its own this results in a range of only 2,500Km and total flight time of ~860 second. Exceeding reported time by 80 second, and short of 500km range.

2) At Apogee the Upper stage motor fires with a slight negative angle to ensure it can return back to earth faster to be within reported 800 sec flight time.

3) End result is it hits targeted zone at stated 800 second total flight time and 3000Km range.

DRDO readying design for 5,000 km-range Agni-V.

Riding on the success of the test-firing of the 3,500 km range, nuclear-capable Agni-III surface-to-surface ballistic missile, the DRDO scientists team involved in the Agni project is planning to complete the design for the first developmental flight of Agni-V ( 5,000 km) in two years. Besides, the team also proposes to equip Agni-V in the later stages with multiple warheads and anti-ballistic missile counter measures.

Talking to reporters here on Friday, Agni’s programme director and Advanced Systems Laboratory director Avinash Chander said, “We are getting ready for the 5,000 km system. Designs are in progress.â€

In Yindu hi-tech Oracle-Operator speak: ++ means +1

So on BR Missile page for brotherly piece(sic) with friendly countries there is a sub-section on Agni-3++ aka Agni-IV

Please see the BR link: Agni-3++/IV

Now for transition from Agni-IV to Agni-V, one has to wait for organic growth. That happens when GoI/Indian Prime Minister develops gonads to openly flaunt the big rocket, an ICBM that can hit any challenger anywhere on earth.

But as long as the guy who commands the Agni-4 has a mindset of a rat that trembles every time he hears heavy steps of a white man walking close by or a muslim terrorist suspect is arrested in UK or Australia, the Agni-IV will refuse to fly further than Pakistan.

Coming from India I am only being "Chanakya" speak.

Arun-saar, this SDRE has a headache. A SUM firing at a slight negative angle only increases re-entry velocity and does not extend the range (much). Was than an SDRE tactic for concealing real range ?

Given that A-III will evolve into a 3 stage mijjile, we have a fourth "stage" (SUM) and a fifth "stage" (RV itself having fuel). Is it the case that stages 1,2,3 give the range, SUM controls payload injection points for MIRV and the RV is used for velocity correction and countermeasures ? Or is it the case that RV in the MIRV'ed stage wont carry fuel (for miniaturization) and SUM is used exclusively for MIRV payload injection and countermeasures ?

Arun_S,

The software looks quite good Were you solely responsible for its design and development or did you also collaborate with other guys/experts. Is is still closed source since it belongs to that college you mentioned?

BTW lots of the engineers (atleast in massa-land) who work on the real thing are avid model rocket enthusiasts (so it is not only for children!)...personally I have usually stuck to model aircraft..perhaps make the transition to rockets someday..

Range can be stated by full demonstration that even the most moronic idiot will be convinced. A more classy demonstration of payload speed and range capability (again an example of a bikini) is to go for a 4x100 relay race, clearly show that the fist two fat boys ran half the track in a leisurely top speed of (set by 350 Km altitude), taking 440 seconds, then the Mush kicking 3 stage kicks in for a short period and the fourth stage coasts to a finish line at 3000 km, the total average speed was un-impressive, but the bikini flashed once (if some one had eyes one for it) when the 3rd stage spurt into action for a short time to roll back the leisurely stride of the first 2 stages.

I think the new RV will have only tiny thrusters & fuel that can change range by few tens of Km.

The second stage will be the Maraging case motor of the type that was tested on D2 flight. The third stage will be the composite case motor that was tested in ths D3 flight, the 4th stage is the SUM that was also tested in this D3 flight under the covers of ....

I was only jesting. I used to fly small rockets with my kids and enjoy it as much as my kids, never made it to the bigger dia motors though.

Correct since the collage owes and controls the source code it is not open source.

Yes I developed it in spare time when not tending to filthy creatures roaming around the durra.

Thanks sanjaykumar, jmaxwell and everyone else for your words of appreciation. That is an essential juice to keep me going, inspite of hardship at work and my teeny weeny detractors who only want to hear GoI press releases and the gospal of "GoI is Gwad".

Arunji, was the Agni3 D3 flight of the Agni3 TD variety or was it the Agni3A variety? Thanks!

Agni-3-D3 was outwardly a Agni-3 TD as seen on BR missile page. However I strongly believe it also carried a SUM (Small Upper Motor) as outlined in the RV Mk-3 drawing.

So in terms of performance it would be similar to Agni-3C configuration on BR Missile page. I.e. ~10,300Km for 1,050Kg throw weight.

Without the SUM, The 2 stage motor configuration will yield 4,300Km for 2,500 Kg throweight. The current BR Missile page is obfuscating that.

Thanks Arunji. I kind-of figured the last part looking at the BR Agni page and the discussion over the last 4 pages .. Nice, I like..

Intrestingly Arunji, the airforce base next to your alma mater at gorakhpur, now has several blue coloured sheds admist what looks like a railway line coming right into the base.

I wonder why?

The SDRE's are quite cunning it seems, they intend to use the railway line to flee the moment there is sign of trouble.

^^

Too close to civilian settlements.

Im guessing that most of the important/large city based AFBs are close to civilian settlements anyways due to lots of civilian colonies being built almost at the perimeters of the bases...at least,it seems so in Bangalore.....

is SUM == HAM (high altitude motor) thats been whispered about ?
or SUM kicks in before the HAM in the RV.

Arun saar has written about HAM in Agni2-TD in india defence review...

SUM is not HAM.

It is the equivalent of the third stage motor of the Trident missile. The RVs are arranged around the third stage base. The nose fairing thus covers both the RVs and the third stage motor. See this drawing: Trident D5

In the SUM drawings, is 1:1 on the width for SUM:MIRV (each). The SUM having more dia, sounds like it has a lot bigger job to do. How much of a re-entry energy/distance does each RV needs to handle in terms of terminal correction for precision purposes?

Does the SUM rides along during coast phase (mid-course), and will only release the MIRVs just before or after reentry. Now, lot of electronics and software is needed to control say 6-10 MIRVs to deliver them to the intended targets. May be it has lot of hardware in it [equal to a short term satellite]... btw, if it can remain in the space during the mission, can it also include the mission relay to capture the MIRV phote/vidoes for mission verifications, or each MIRV will have a camera that relays to SUM, back to mission control.

What are all SUM roles?

iirc a MIRVed warhead can deviate around 200km right/left from the path
traced on the ground by the "bus" (driven by the SUM) in space. so each
RV carriers relatively small amt of fuel and a compact engine. the "bus"
can also deviate left and right to some extent due to SUM it looks like.
due to SUM the distance between the release of first and last MIRV RV
can probably be extended in essence permitting attack on a longer line
of targets.

Those of us who want to learn more about the timeline involved in R&D of missile development, complexities involved, you can read this article. Written in quite plain english, gives some fundamental education.

Missile Education

DRDO also said, their MIRVs would be capable of dodging anti-missiles.. actually it only takes one dodge to evade, and before ABM reverts after re-correction of its terminal homing, agni's target is obliviated.

Its better to have that small engine that works along with G forces, and thus the few seconds becomes no use.. furthermore, SUMs may be also a target of ABMs.. Hence, depending on mission computing finalizations, it could either be available as a dummy target for the ABMs., and keep the tizzied folks glued to some momentary happiness, before the dawn happens [that perhaps even nullifies anymore ABM launches]..if the MIRV targets are so chosen.

For a big country, that is trying to exceed the super cop nation, and are now in the third stage of their economic development, its important that MIRVs can target any city/region in the chosen country [let say the size of at least 4 times India], besides ensuring such an attack happens with at least half a dozen a3sls, and we don't have to think about 3rd strike.

Why waste time with Photo shopping Adminullah's gyan on futility of a Thermo Nuclear weapon (India never needs it, except Arun_S for his drawings ), or a bigger Fusion Boosted weapon? But if one seeks to field a missile force that is not the size of PSLV, then yes that 1:1 shows why MIRV capability requires TN weapons and why FBF weapon will not fit the bill. The diameter is the limiting factor (and that is limited by? smallest possible fission primary). RC's working diameter is too big to be useful. No smoke and mirror to his waste/waist(sic).

SUM is simply a solid fuelled last stage. No payload separation possible when it is thrusting. Dispensing at the end of boost phase.

Electronics: No, even a new microcontroller, much less a FPGA can do it all.
Software: Concept not very difficult; IMU & inertial frame transformation and kalman. Yes Engineering is difficult, but complexity due to MIRV is comparatively small.

IMHO that is empty boast. Believe at your own peril that portal to Alice in Wonderland.

Before Dodge it must first see. ABM has array of metal hulk (on ground and airbourn) with lot of electric power to know and track missile. What does MIRV have?

If it dodges blindly, it just increases the IR signature that helps an incoming interceptor. Exo-atmosphere dodging is even worse in inviting attention to ABM systems (including interceptor seeker if it in vicinity). Dodging maneuver is only useful if MIRV can see interceptor AND its thruster can generate higher G than the interceptor; I say fat chance.

FWIW.. I hate to see you in the "mode" you are in currently. You have "nothing" to prove. IMHO. The earliest you can ignore, and move on, the better..

HAM is the stale food of YamriKhans old missiles that have a MIRV Bus carrying pure ballistic payloads. A-2 with its huge ~4 m long re-entry vehicle looks like a classic RV with an integrated bus (for single payload, it no more resembles a bus but more like sports motor-cycle carrying one payload). So it is ostensibly capable of doing the job of not only correcting dispersion but also as range increasing motor.

Indian RVs will continue to be non-bus architecture. Looks like rest of the world is also taking that new Indian middle path.

SUM is only the last solid propulsion motor for the payload section.

Correct. That layout results in most compact package. All submarine launched long range BM use that style packaging.

Apart from reducing length, there is another technical aspect. For large diameter missiles, as one gets progressively to smaller fuel capacity of upper stage, the length to diameter ratio of the cylindrical solid motor becomes infeasible or very inefficient because mass of dead weight appendages grow disproportionately. Reducing the diameter of the top stage thus helps build efficient small motors, but that at the same time demands repackaging payload section.

These SDRE yindoos are like that onlee...They want to be good student and please Prof Yamri Khan. They want to drop the test tube at Mach 5 pluz without annoying the sleeping professor....Agni 3 is IRMB onlee...ICMB is too much to handle for these SDREs

Edited later: Sorry for using Pakistani-English, was very excited

{Admin note: Edited to clean use of Pakistani-English. -Arun_S Admin Hat on}

H.B.Krishna: Though I am sometimes also at fault, but we need to restrict Puki-English to the dedicated fun poking thread: "[url=Pakistan Enlightened Nuclear Islamic State - positive news]Pakistan Enlightened Nuclear Islamic State - positive news[/url]" only.

Request you to pls sanitize your post.

The meaning of reentry deceleration of more than 35G, clearly means that the A3-D3's big nose cone did not come down as one piece. (That would have generated >110G). All indications are that whenever rained down had high-Beta (ballistic coefficient) to be around 35G. That means its diameter was pretty small.

So the RV tested was either RV Mk-2A or Mk4 or Mk5.
Clicky.

This is from the link posted earlier in full.
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 761000.htm
.


These "futuristic missiles" probably refer to NCADE type systems fired from high flying platforms . How do you beat these systems? by increasing boost phase velocity?

India's fire power

The Pioneer Edit Desk

The Daily Pioneer
http://www.dailypioneer.com
2008/05/11
posted in full since site does not archive

Agni III adds to nuclear muscle

With the successful test firing of Agni III off the coast of Orissa on Wednesday, India now has a long-range nuclear capable ballistic missile that is almost ready for induction as a crucial component of the country's strategic arsenal. The Agni III is a two-stage missile capable of carrying nuclear warheads, which thus adds considerable teeth to India's defence and adds a further dimension to the country's strategic deterrent programme. This is the most powerful missile to have been indigenously developed by our scientists and technologists so far - Agni III can carry payloads beyond 3,500 km. It has justifiably been described as "not just a missile but a system for the future with which various configurations can be developed". The DRDO, therefore, deserves to be lauded for having worked hard to develop this surface-to-surface missile. Wednesday's test demonstrated the missile's ability to hit its intended target at a range of over 3,000 km; all other parameters have also been met. This is the third test of Agni III, which was carried out to establish the 'repeatability of missile performance'. The missile is said to have reached its target in 800 seconds, travelling at 4000 m/second and reaching a peak height of 350 km. It is believed that the 'Circular Error Probable' of the missile is less than 20 m, which is the best in this class of ballistic missiles in the world. Agni III was first tested two years ago when the second stage of the missile had failed to separate. This was a considerable setback to the Agni III programme and at that time it had been felt that the project would be delayed. Yet, DRDO has bounced back with considerable competence - it has rectified the flaws in the design, a point made during the second test in 2007 and repeated this week.

With Agni III, India now joins the select club of nations that have this kind of advanced nuclear capability. The missile also evens India's strategic balance with China which has the capability to strike targets inside India. The solid fuel Agni III can strike targets deep inside China, including Beijing and Shanghai. However, India's strategic weapons are not targeted at any particular country but are part of our policy of minimum credible nuclear deterrence. Agni III enhances India's counter-strike capability. That apart, Agni III also showcases the outstanding capabilities of our defence production industry. Cassandras who do not tire of criticising and lampooning DRDO have once again been proved wrong. In a sense, Agni III is a fitting tribute to India's genius on the 10th anniversary of Pokhran-II.