Artillery Discussion Thread

[D Roy]

Ravi_g

A few kilometres up from solang even the Manali-leh road becomes Class I only. It is right now being widened to Class II level.

I am acutely aware of such roads having travelled in both buses and cars on them for days on an end.


Like I said. It's not unobtanium. it has already been demonstrated.

Please feel free to believe this or not. The Army knows what it is doing.

[rohitvats]

rohitvats ji, right now at least I cannot see anybody whining.

Guns are in issue now because guns are the river we need to cross hence we have a decision point for ourselves. People can surely decide about the wisedom of a decision taken by somebody else.

And its a yes to every point of yours in the first para. Which is what set me thinking in the first place. I came to the conclusion that anything beyond 30-35 km can only be dealt with by guided rockets type weaponry.

I would love to take this forward. I am a patient man hope you do not get riled easily. Unfortunately too much on hand rigth now.

Peace bro

I guess it is only me - but then I do expect people to read up a bit. Long barrel length is a 'catch all' phrase when it comes to this question of road length issue. Question - how long is too long? And how do you judge that? I did not see anyone bothering to find this aspect out. For example - do you know that the good old M-46 with its 130 mm gun is 52 Cal?

So, if you don't go for 52 Cal, what other option do you have? Does 45 or 39 Cal offer any advantage in terms of length and movement related issues? Or, in terms of money and number of units which can be obtained? Last I checked, the latter point was not even an issue - after all, we're standardizing on 155/52 Cal across the board.

Therefore, the issue pertains to movement - is getting a 'shorter' (again, how short?) barrel the answer or widening of roads a more appropriate answer? After all, IA is working towards widening of NH-1A to allow for road transport of T-90 laden trailers - and that beats every gun out there in terms of weight and length.

And irrespective of width of road, they are all prone to be taken out by the enemy once the shooting match starts. Just look up the Chumbi Valley topography - India could hole up the entire PLA Garrison in that valley and cut it off from the rear. And this is where the helicopters come in - and IMO, that is why the bill for proposed MSC is so steep - there is no getting away from vertical component if you want to fight offensive battle.

[darshand]

For example - do you know that the good old M-46 with its 130 mm gun is 52 Cal?

Nitpick: 52 cal barrel for a 130mm gun will be shorter than for a 155mm.

[ArmenT]

Speaking of caliber, SHQ and I visited the USS Iowa this prev. weekend and I got to touch the big 16 inch/50 cal guns. Got some very good pictures too. Any interest in seeing them here?

[Aditya_V]

Just abount 52*25mm , i.e 1.3 mtrs shorter

[Bala Vignesh]

Definitely armenullah, please to post in either the Misc Thread or in photography dhaga in GDF..

[member_22906]

What are we so obsessed about truck mounted arty for mountain sectors? With M777 coming in soon, really dont see a need for truck mounted guns. In fact, it only adds to a longer logistics tail and lesser flexibility

[member_20317]

D Roy ji, I am also for the most part convinced about the wisdom of the IA brass incharge of the ops. In fact I am yet to any sign of IA deciding about SPGH/Mounted in Himalayas. Instead they went the other way round. They bought the M777. IMO a very smart decision indeed. These towed articulated carriage guns should allow for a lot of flexibility in operating without putting the whole system at risk. But since on a relevant cost basis it is a very expensive piece of hardware so something has to come in, in the filler role. Which is where 105 and 130 come in. 130 is said to have a reputation for higher accuracy but poor elevation and longer in and out of action time. 105 has good of everything but a smaller warhead. So at present I believe we have a reasonable mix of all pieces.

And no I am not very bothered about the lengths, Singha ji referred to overhead wires but in himalayas at most places we will not have overhead wires. Width is something more important for me. Articulation of the entire system is even more so. Bigger deal for me is the emplacement and displacement times.

If one reads the following (available on net) one will realise the importance of what we have and the areas we should grow in. And it is to be borne in mind that US army is actually moving around at a very big scale (equipment wise) and the figure 9 on page 39 shows their self diagnosis:

“Howitzers on High Ground: Considerations for Artillery Employment in Southwest Asia
A Monograph by Major Joseph A. Jackson United States Army.”

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>If one reads the following (available on net) one will realize the importance of what we have and the areas we should grow in. And it is to be borne in mind that US army is actually moving around at a very big scale (equipment wise) and the figure 9 on page 39 shows their self diagnosis:

“Howitzers on High Ground: Considerations for Artillery Employment in Southwest Asia
A Monograph by Major Joseph A. Jackson United States Army.”

Well, the entire analysis in that document is in context of US Army fighting Taliban in the Afghanistan theater - hence, the emphasis on artillery which can move out of forward fire bases, are more mobile and much more easier to operate. It laments the emphasis on technology as 'be-all-end-all' and argues in favor of more quantity - as technology tends to loose its cutting edge in high mountainous territory + when fighting a nimble and mobile adversary as Taliban.

[rohitvats]

Second part on Analysis of Artillery Divisions in Indian Army:

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/12/ar ... my_22.html

Here, I have tried to answer the question about the ORBAT of an artillery division using information available about 41 Artillery Division.

Regards,

[member_22906]

Great post once again RV...

I was almost spot on regarding the composition of the Arty Div

On the force mix in an Arty Div, I suspect that there will be:

a) 2 X Gun Bde (3-4 Regts with M46 and/or FH-77B)
b) 1 X Rocket Bde (1 Regt of Smerch + 1-2 Regts with Grads and/or Pinaka)
c) 1 X Composite Missile Bde (1 Brahmos unit + 1 Prithvi unit, which could be replaced by Prahar in future)
d) HQ resources/ unit could include UAV and SATA radars & eqpt.

My 2 cents...

[rohitvats]

Great post once again RV...

I was almost spot on regarding the composition of the Arty Div

On the force mix in an Arty Div, I suspect that there will be:

a) 2 X Gun Bde (3-4 Regts with M46 and/or FH-77B)
b) 1 X Rocket Bde (1 Regt of Smerch + 1-2 Regts with Grads and/or Pinaka)
c) 1 X Composite Missile Bde (1 Brahmos unit + 1 Prithvi unit, which could be replaced by Prahar in future)
d) HQ resources/ unit could include UAV and SATA radars & eqpt.

My 2 cents...

AS - you were right about more than one thing...I'm sorry, I could not reply to your mails. They have really helped me fill up some gaps in my understanding. So, a big thank you for that.

For example, I was of the opinion that (I) Arty Bdes were under AHQ. BTW, on the Corps Arty Bdes, only the ones with Strike Corps got merged with Arty Divisions...rest of the Corps have their Corps Arty Bde...I have seen evidence of the same on the net. In fact, this was confirmed by Lt.Gen. Panag (retd.) when he tweeted about arty divisions - this was in reply to some gentle soul tweeting my first post on the subject and LTG Panag replied to same giving explanations.

[Boreas]

Second part on Analysis of Artillery Divisions in Indian Army:

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/12/ar ... my_22.html

Here, I have tried to answer the question about the ORBAT of an artillery division using information available about 41 Artillery Division.

Regards,

Both parts are very informative and well written. Keep up the good work.

(If I may suggest try changing the blog background.. this one hinders with the text)

[rohitvats]

Second part on Analysis of Artillery Divisions in Indian Army:

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/12/ar ... my_22.html

Here, I have tried to answer the question about the ORBAT of an artillery division using information available about 41 Artillery Division.

Regards,

Both parts are very informative and well written. Keep up the good work.

(If I may suggest try changing the blog background.. this one hinders with the text)

Thanks for the good word...as for background - well, I have suffering from my usual itch to do something 'creative'...after the initial swaying between here and there....I've redone the thing to make it more legible..please have a relook. Thanks.

[Boreas]

Thanks for the good word...as for background - well, I have suffering from my usual itch to do something 'creative'...after the initial swaying between here and there....I've redone the thing to make it more legible..please have a relook. Thanks.

Much better.. cool banner.

You may also like to include a CC license to protect your work. (link - http://creativecommons.org/choose/)

[member_22906]

Glad I could help RV

[rohitvats]

Thanks for the good word...as for background - well, I have suffering from my usual itch to do something 'creative'...after the initial swaying between here and there....I've redone the thing to make it more legible..please have a relook. Thanks.

Much better.. cool banner.

You may also like to include a CC license to protect your work. (link - http://creativecommons.org/choose/)

Thanks...any idea how does one stretch the banner all the way across? The layout template chosen actually shows page title area extending from one corner to another.

Also, how does one use this CC license for a blog?

[Aditya G]

Second part on Analysis of Artillery Divisions in Indian Army:

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/12/ar ... my_22.html

Here, I have tried to answer the question about the ORBAT of an artillery division using information available about 41 Artillery Division.

Regards,

Rohit, excellent blog. Pls indulge me on a noobish question that follows;

Presently bulk of the guns are likely to be 130mm M-46 with sprinkling of 155/39 Cal FH7B02 Bofors. However, in due course of time, once the FRAP sees light of the day, the caliber will be standardized at 155/52 Cal with induction of new guns. Another important aspect is the mobility – at present, all these guns are of the towed variety. If the division has to keep pace with its parent Strike Corps, it will need mounted or Self-Propelled guns (tracked or wheeled) in its inventory. However, given the limited number of SP (Tracked) guns being ordered (180, I think), the divisions are likely to be equipped with a mix of towed and mounted guns.

In India-Pak scenario, to what extent should the artillery keep pace with the armour? If the armour penetrates around 50 Kms over 2-3 days ... then can't the howitzers simply sit behind the IB and lob the shells across?

[rohitvats]

Glad I could help RV

AS-you've been of more than help...this is one subject which very few people understand or bother to follow.

Everyone likes to go after technological aspect of defense systems...what we need to understand is how the same is organized and translates into effectiveness on battlefield.

[rohitvats]

Second part on Analysis of Artillery Divisions in Indian Army:

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/12/ar ... my_22.html

Here, I have tried to answer the question about the ORBAT of an artillery division using information available about 41 Artillery Division.

Regards,

Rohit, excellent blog. Pls indulge me on a noobish question that follows;

Presently bulk of the guns are likely to be 130mm M-46 with sprinkling of 155/39 Cal FH7B02 Bofors. However, in due course of time, once the FRAP sees light of the day, the caliber will be standardized at 155/52 Cal with induction of new guns. Another important aspect is the mobility – at present, all these guns are of the towed variety. If the division has to keep pace with its parent Strike Corps, it will need mounted or Self-Propelled guns (tracked or wheeled) in its inventory. However, given the limited number of SP (Tracked) guns being ordered (180, I think), the divisions are likely to be equipped with a mix of towed and mounted guns.

In India-Pak scenario, to what extent should the artillery keep pace with the armour? If the armour penetrates around 50 Kms over 2-3 days ... then can't the howitzers simply sit behind the IB and lob the shells across?

Aditya, thanks for the good word.

As for SP arty of the wheeled/mounted or tracked variety, the movement is not only required to keep pace with the mechanized column but also to be able to move from location A to location B on their own power - and over varied terrain. If your armor can take Axis A to advance, can the artillery move along the same axis or needs to move along alternate axis - which is more suitable for towed guns.

[Boreas]

Thanks...any idea how does one stretch the banner all the way across? The layout template chosen actually shows page title area extending from one corner to another.

Also, how does one use this CC license for a blog?

To Add license -

Go to cc license link -> chose copyright features as u wish -> in the fourth block, just below the text - "Copy this code to let your visitors know!" -> copy all the html code in that textbox

open blog -> goto Design -> Layout -> Click on Add a gadget (on right sidebar) -> from the gadget list select Html/javascript -> copy paste html text from cc licence website here -> save

Copyright information should now appear on ur blog.


For banner.. it won't stretch you have to use a bigger image. 1000 x 200 will fit well i think. You can add title and description text on picture itself, that way it will be easier to get font of proper size and color suiting your banner image.

[A Sharma]

Desi Bofors gun passes the test

JABALPUR: It is thumbs up finally to made in MP desi Bofors gun. The country cousin of the Swedish high caliber artillery gun has passed the final hurdle race in Proof and Experimental establishment (PXE) Balasore with flying colors on December 23.

The performance of the both updated prototypes has been just as expected, project director of the weapon development component and general manager Gun carriage factory GCF S P Yadav declared here. Amidst reports that GCF has already piped the rivals and bagged the Rs 6000 crore project, a jubilant Yadav said that, things were "in process", but declined to comment till he got the order in hands.

Both prototypes -155/45 caliber guns Yadav said have fulfilled all required parameters on the PXE testing orange. There were three successive field trials held in Balasore on December 19, 20 and 23 respectively at the technology intensive range, equipped to provide accurate ballistic measurements .and both specimen could hit 38-40 kilometers mark successfully in presence of Yadav his team and DG artillery lieutenant general Anjan Mukherji who represented Indian Army, along with the experts from defense research and development organization DRDO.

DRDO has compiled the data and analysis and we would shortly receive a copy the general manager said.

Though the initial internal trials held in May this year in Pokharan had yielded positive results the indigenous howitzer, developed by the GCF for final clearance had to pass two acid tests- at Itarasi and Balsore- before it could be handed over to Army. Taken first to the central proof establishment CPE Itarsi, it went through three day test on November 30 and December 5 and 6. However, at CPE, firing was confined to the arrester butt on zero degree elevation as against Balasore where we could go up to our maximum elevation of 70 degrees at every designed angle, Yadav said.

The prototypes have been, after the CPE firing, subjected to series of tests for assessing its structural strength. It was found that all components and assemblage could sustain the firing stress effortlessly without any damage. On its way back from Orissa, both guns would be dismantled to be examined part by part to once again to be doubly sure before being handed over to the Army next month.

A team of 125 personnel had been working on the project for last year and half to develop a, technically updated version of the Swedish 155/39 caliber gun which had a firing range between 27 and 29 kilometers. Though GCF Jabalpur had the lead role in the project it was duly assisted in the endeavor by other ten units including Kolkota, Muradnagar, Medhak, Ambernath and Dehradoon.

[sarabpal.s]

Desi Bofors gun passes the test

JABALPUR: It is thumbs up finally to made in MP desi Bofors gun. The country cousin of the Swedish high caliber artillery gun has passed the final hurdle race in Proof and Experimental establishment (PXE) Balasore with flying colors on December 23.

The performance of the both updated prototypes has been just as expected, project director of the weapon development component and general manager Gun carriage factory GCF S P Yadav declared here. Amidst reports that GCF has already piped the rivals and bagged the Rs 6000 crore project, a jubilant Yadav said that, things were "in process", but declined to comment till he got the order in hands.

Both prototypes -155/45 caliber guns Yadav said have fulfilled all required parameters on the PXE testing orange. There were three successive field trials held in Balasore on December 19, 20 and 23 respectively at the technology intensive range, equipped to provide accurate ballistic measurements .and both specimen could hit 38-40 kilometers mark successfully in presence of Yadav his team and DG artillery lieutenant general Anjan Mukherji who represented Indian Army, along with the experts from defense research and development organization DRDO.

DRDO has compiled the data and analysis and we would shortly receive a copy the general manager said.

Though the initial internal trials held in May this year in Pokharan had yielded positive results the indigenous howitzer, developed by the GCF for final clearance had to pass two acid tests- at Itarasi and Balsore- before it could be handed over to Army. Taken first to the central proof establishment CPE Itarsi, it went through three day test on November 30 and December 5 and 6. However, at CPE, firing was confined to the arrester butt on zero degree elevation as against Balasore where we could go up to our maximum elevation of 70 degrees at every designed angle, Yadav said.

The prototypes have been, after the CPE firing, subjected to series of tests for assessing its structural strength. It was found that all components and assemblage could sustain the firing stress effortlessly without any damage. On its way back from Orissa, both guns would be dismantled to be examined part by part to once again to be doubly sure before being handed over to the Army next month.

A team of 125 personnel had been working on the project for last year and half to develop a, technically updated version of the Swedish 155/39 caliber gun which had a firing range between 27 and 29 kilometers. Though GCF Jabalpur had the lead role in the project it was duly assisted in the endeavor by other ten units including Kolkota, Muradnagar, Medhak, Ambernath and Dehradoon.

Good news at that front but little premature as cold weather and high hill test yet to be done as per reports

[sum]

Amidst reports that GCF has already piped the rivals and bagged the Rs 6000 crore project, a jubilant Yadav said that, things were "in process", but declined to comment till he got the order in hands.

What rivals?

I thought the DRDO/Bharat Forge etc were making a seperate 52 cal 155 mm Howitzer which was not competing with this 39/45 cal gun?

[Singha]

maybe he meant the GHN45 whose production line was purchased by bharat forge?

I think there is room for two types of towed howitzers - they will use the same IACCS and ammo and training procedures will be similar. apart from derisking our technology base, it will also permit 2X faster induction than a sole vendor situation. it will also encourage pvt industry. we anyways have various types like 130mm and 105mm in the payroll, with new hires like m777 to join shortly.

in other new FIPB has rejected the proposal by M&M and Rafael to setup a defence subsidiary JV here. no reasons were given.

[srai]

Second part on Analysis of Artillery Divisions in Indian Army:

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/12/ar ... my_22.html

Here, I have tried to answer the question about the ORBAT of an artillery division using information available about 41 Artillery Division.

Regards,

It would be interesting to see how the artillery with mountain brigades/division would differ.

[suryag]

Arrey Yadavji aap itni jaldi paise ginna bandh kijiye, now the asli mazaa starts with trials by the IA in Pokhran/Leh/Punjab and then you will be handed a list of to-dos which you will take a year to fix and then another year of trials. That 6k CR even if it is coming to you will only come in 2016 (remember the trichy assault rifle)

Jokes apart if the IA were serious they would start inducting these guns in numbers not waiting from the 52cal version from DRDO and hope DRDO doesnt veto it at the APEX ... hmm i think they can only veto it when the vendor is foreign so OFB should be okie i guess

[sum]

Arrey Yadavji aap itni jaldi paise ginna bandh kijiye, now the asli mazaa starts with trials by the IA in Pokhran/Leh/Punjab and then you will be handed a list of to-dos which you will take a year to fix and then another year of trials

True.

If there is something the 15 year artillery saga with the IA has taught, it is "don't count your guns before they are formally inducted by IA".

It always seems to be so near, yet so far ( like the Bhim case or the 1000000 summer trials going on for donkey years)

[Vipul]

All these successful trials are fine and dandy but what about the overseas accounts in tax-heavens awaiting fresh deposits. Hain Ji?

[Singha]

All these successful trials are fine and dandy but what about the overseas accounts in tax-heavens awaiting fresh deposits. Hain Ji?

SP and truck deals could address that pain point.

[Vipul]

The light howitzers is a Govt to Govt deal, now the towed Guns are being made by OFB, the Import lobby will doubt about the rest of the variants especially after the Desi companies are circumventing bans and coming up/proposing to come up with Jugaad versions in the truck(mounted) and wheeled category.
So the foreign vendor company is ensured its share, the indian ministers and bureaucrats will be left with nothing unless ethical and reputed companies like TATA's and L&T indulge in wholesale bribing.I doubt that will happen as L&T after investing Rs 2,000 crores in a ship-yard is not able to ensure orders from the Navy.

Unless a character like Nikhil Gandhi gets involved it is not going to happen.
It is interesting how Nikhil Gandhi has ensured business for Pipavav and L&T has been left holding the bag even though its hi-tech yard was ready before Pipavav's.

[rohitvats]

Second part on Analysis of Artillery Divisions in Indian Army:

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/12/ar ... my_22.html

Here, I have tried to answer the question about the ORBAT of an artillery division using information available about 41 Artillery Division.

Regards,

It would be interesting to see how the artillery with mountain brigades/division would differ.

Artillery Brigades of mountain divisions have the combination of 105mm IFG/LFG and a Medium Regiment. Plus, the Light Regiment with 120mm mortars.

[Shrinivasan]

Amidst reports that GCF has already piped the rivals and bagged the Rs 6000 crore project, a jubilant Yadav said that, things were "in process", but declined to comment till he got the order in hands.

What rivals?
I thought the DRDO/Bharat Forge etc were making a seperate 52 cal 155 mm Howitzer which was not competing with this 39/45 cal gun?

Rivals are the Natasha armed Dalals, and Jernails... there can be endless trials, improvements suggestions, cross-country trials, cold weather, hot weather, monsoon, desert, sea... Andaman & Nicobar trials etc...

[vic]

I think indigenous guns will fail underwater exo-atmospheric plasma firing tests and Army will order first batch of 100 guns subject to successful completion of these tests. In the meanwhile requirement of M777 will go upto 2000 and articles will be written as to how Desi Bofors is too heavy.

[Austin]

Indian Big Guns Ready to Fire
Indigenous industry steps into the buying freeze to fulfil Army's heavy artillery needs

[Singha]

another area crying out for pvtization and where tech is likely available COTS from offshore is munitions ranging from 5.56mm to 155mm shells. there is no reason for only OFB to make ammo when this profitable line of work with running needs will attract pvt players and given them scale to venture in other defence areas.

this will finally fix the issue of having to import lakhs of shells in emergencies from rus or idf stocks are wartime price gouging rates and enable a befitting reply to cheen trolls as well

[KrishnaK]

Army's bid to acquire five different types of howitzers-tracked, wheeled, towed, mounted and air-droppable ultralight guns-over the past decade.

^^ That from the india today article. What's the difference between wheeled and mounted ?

[Will]

Army's bid to acquire five different types of howitzers-tracked, wheeled, towed, mounted and air-droppable ultralight guns-over the past decade.

^^ That from the india today article. What's the difference between wheeled and mounted ?

The wheeled one is like a tank but on wheels not tracks, more like a BMP.

[Gurneesh]

^^^ BMP is also tracked..

Tracked SP arty is a turreted artillery gun mounted on a tracked chassis (typically a tank chasis). E.g. Bhim (Arjun chassis + T6 turret) is a tracked arty.




Wheeled SP arty is a turreted arty gun mounted on a special purpose wheeled chassis. E.g. Denel G6 is a wheeled arty.




Mounted SP arty is just a gun mounted on a truck like the TATA gun which uses the same G5 gun that the G6 and Bhim use but without any turret.




While Mounted SP Arty is generally much lighter than the tracked or wheeled versions, it also provides lesser crew protection from counter battery fire, mines etc.

[KrishnaK]

Thanks