Artillery Discussion Thread

[krishnan]

yes artillery on a helo

[RoyG]

Are the Mods sleeping?

[Vipul]

government has failed to encourage private sector in defence-production

[krishnan]

wow.....thats a very small link tittle

[Pratyush]

even though India has large artillery gun acquisitions lined up. "They haven't said no, so that is a relief," says Rahul Chaudhry, CEO of Tata Power SED. "For how long will the life of our soldiers and national security be held hostage by the narrow interests of unions?" he adds. L&T and Bharat Forge are also developing howitzers.[/url]

How do we know that the lukewarm response of MOd s not due to that fact that foreign partner has been black listed due to the wild allegations of one Renuka Chaudhary.

[Vivek K]

More than likely some babu in MOD has not received enough greenback to give up his natash addiction.

[alexis]

Unfortunately, TATA is not known for bribery! Some other group would have got the approval much faster in the system

[Singha]

the large number of Rus/Ukr/Belarus call girls available in delhi as a free pool gives any foreign vendor a PGS(prompt global strike) kind of deployable on-demand firepower to shall we say "lube" and "warm" the wheels of the machinery. generally businessmen can afford to patronize but with strong vendor financing, they can be diverted to anyone desired.
I dont have a complaint against the girls in the oldest profession - they do it out of choice and to make money for export-import small business ventures they run, generally sourcing goods from india and selling back home sometimes.

its the aeging men of weak mind who have forgotten the oaths they took at the sight of uncovered gori "meat"

[rohitvats]

^^^And the 'delay' by MOD could very well be to give enough window of opportunity to a DPSU to tie up with a foreign vendor and propose an 'indigenous' product. It does not matter that the said DPSU will simply serve as a front for the foreign vendor and undertake only screwdriver level of work. And there will be no net addition to technology base of the country.

[Sanku]

Unfortunately, TATA is not known for bribery! Some other group would have got the approval much faster in the system

Oh please TATAs know how to work the system as much as others. Note the 2G Radia gate saga.

[P Chitkara]

Sanku ji, I have worked with TATA long enough to vouch for their honesty. As far as bribery is concerned, there is a very strict no tolerance policy.

[Vipul]

Dont want to go OT, but am amused to read about the ethical standards of the Tata group. They were responsible for misusing the monopoly after the takeover of VSNL in keeping the general charges for telecom(long distance calls and web access) very high.

[Kanson]

More than likely some babu in MOD has not received enough greenback to give up his natash addiction.

Very likely........... but there is a story behind MoD not being so enthusiastic in particular with TATA. There is an allegation that they threatened/coerced(you substitute it with any diplomatic word) to sell software developed for Armed forces to outside.

[member_20317]

<SNIP>
What has gone wrong in the last 13 months?

Time does not permit me to expand but the problem is not Pinaka system but rockets thereof. The QC issue is with rockets manufactured by OFB. Pinaka is BTW manufactured by private players.

http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home/Our ... erview.pdf

Loss of indigenously designed/manufactured ammunition

Large quantity of indigenously designed and manufactured ammunition
valuing ` 408.06 crore was declared unserviceable without thorough
investigation and analysis to determine the causes of failure. This resulted in
import of ammunition costing ` 278.88 crore. (Paragraph 2.5)

<sniped>

Projection of inflated requirement of ammunition

Despite holding surplus stock, the Ministry of Defence based on the
requirements projected by Director General Ordnance Services placed indent
on Ordnance Factory Board for supply of ammunition besides ‘in principle’
approval for their import. Timely intervention by Audit led to cancellation of
orders resulting in a saving of ` 168.75 crore.
(Paragraph 3.5)

<sniped>

Unfruitful expenditure on development of Modular Charge System for field guns

Defence Research and Development Organisation undertook a Technology
Development project for development of modular charge system for 105 mm
and 130 mm guns based on projection made by Director General Artillery.
However, on completion of the project the DG Artillery expressed disinterest
in the technology due to the likely de-induction of these guns from the service
leading to unfruitful expenditure of ` 13.48 crore incurred on the development
of the system. (Paragraph 3.2)

<sniped>

Avoidable extra expenditure in procurement of stores

Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory Hyderabad refloated tenders for
procurement of die blocks and die stack parts even as there was enough scope
to finalise the L-1 offer within the validity period. This led to an avoidable
extra expenditure of ` 4.56 crore. (Paragraph 6.1)

<sniped>

Delay in production and issue of rockets for Pinaka Rocket Launcher System by Ordnance Factories

The project for production of rockets for Pinaka multi-barrel rocket launcher
system is way behind the schedule. The quality related problems in a
production process resulted in a loss of 407 rockets valuing ` 44.51 crore and
propellant valuing ` 4.25 crore. Repeated failures and stoppage of production
of the rockets for a certain period, led to overall delay in operationalisation of
the Army units as per induction plan. (Paragraph 8.2)

<sniped>

Production of new generation vehicles in Vehicle Factory Jabalpur

Vehicle Factory Jabalpur which undertook manufacture of two new generation
vehicles based on transfer of technology from M/s Ashok Leyland Ltd.
(Stallion) and M/s Tata Motors Ltd (LPTA) could achieve in-house
manufacture of components/assemblies to the extent of only a meagre 17.46
per cent (Stallion) and 16.63 per cent (LPTA), as against the objective of
achieving in-house production target of 59.04 per cent (Stallion) and 51.58 per
cent (LPTA). Gross under-utilisation of plant and machinery resulted in trade
procurement of components and assemblies aggregating ` 498.86 crore during
2008-11. (Paragraph 8.3)

[abhik]

^^^And the 'delay' by MOD could very well be to give enough window of opportunity to a DPSU to tie up with a foreign vendor and propose an 'indigenous' product. It does not matter that the said DPSU will simply serve as a front for the foreign vendor and undertake only screwdriver level of work. And there will be no net addition to technology base of the country.

Except that this time Tata seems to be acting as a front for a foreign vendor i.e. Denel. An "Indigenous" gun which doesn't have an indigenous gun. Like it or not OFB is still our best bet in making indigenous guns. The only other player I can think of is Bharat Forge which apart from JVs with foreign vendors has bought a artillery plant from Austria which should help them in production know-how. Also their core competency is in metals, so expect some progress in the core technologies involved in the guntself. Unlike Tata which has used its automotive and electronics/software expertise to modify an existing Denel product and dress it up as "Indigenous".

[Prem Kumar]

There is no harm in admitting (be it OFB or Tata or anyone else) that we are only at 50% indigenous level. There should be an MOD driven mandate to achieve 100% indigenization over a certain number of years. I dont see why Tatas shouldnt be given a chance to compete for this business. Tatas, L&T, Bharat Forge are all hungry - if the MOD is willing/smart, they can set the terms of the deal

[V_Raman]

^^^And the 'delay' by MOD could very well be to give enough window of opportunity to a DPSU to tie up with a foreign vendor and propose an 'indigenous' product. It does not matter that the said DPSU will simply serve as a front for the foreign vendor and undertake only screwdriver level of work. And there will be no net addition to technology base of the country.

Except that this time Tata seems to be acting as a front for a foreign vendor i.e. Denel. An "Indigenous" gun which doesn't have an indigenous gun. Like it or not OFB is still our best bet in making indigenous guns. The only other player I can think of is Bharat Forge which apart from JVs with foreign vendors has bought a artillery plant from Austria which should help them in production know-how. Also their core competency is in metals, so expect some progress in the core technologies involved in the guntself. Unlike Tata which has used its automotive and electronics/software expertise to modify an existing Denel product and dress it up as "Indigenous".

Buying/Moving plants is not new to TATA. They did it for their cars. Maybe they will eventually do it with Denel...

[rohitvats]

Except that this time Tata seems to be acting as a front for a foreign vendor i.e. Denel. An "Indigenous" gun which doesn't have an indigenous gun. Like it or not OFB is still our best bet in making indigenous guns. The only other player I can think of is Bharat Forge which apart from JVs with foreign vendors has bought a artillery plant from Austria which should help them in production know-how. Also their core competency is in metals, so expect some progress in the core technologies involved in the guntself. Unlike Tata which has used its automotive and electronics/software expertise to modify an existing Denel product and dress it up as "Indigenous".

Well, if you had read the TATA SED statement, it said that 52% of the gun has indigenous component. Which, BTW, is the condition if a product has to be procured from Indian companies - even if they have JV with foreign companies. Secondly, if there is a confirmed order, I don't see a reason for TATA SED/DENEL to not move the full tech production in the country.

As for Bharat Forge - well, best of luck to them. GCF Union had threatened to go on strike the moment they learnt that TATA SED is developing a 155 mm gun. They relented only when they were told that TATA gun is in a different category. BF gun is very much in the same category as GCF, Jabalpur. Let us see how the same plays out.

I have more faith in a private company to get its act together than a OFB enterprise. The OFB/DPSU are themselves known for dressing up foreign product as domestic and passing it own to Services. The Zuzana Wheeled SP Gun is a prime example of the same. So, why discriminate against private player? At least things will be done more efficiently with better QC.

[Suresh S]

its the aeging men of weak mind who have forgotten the oaths they took at the sight of uncovered gori "meat".

Even though said in half jest it is a profound statement singha.History may not have recorded it properly but the same thing has been India,s downfall in the centuries gone by.

[abhik]

Except that this time Tata seems to be acting as a front for a foreign vendor i.e. Denel. An "Indigenous" gun which doesn't have an indigenous gun. Like it or not OFB is still our best bet in making indigenous guns. The only other player I can think of is Bharat Forge which apart from JVs with foreign vendors has bought a artillery plant from Austria which should help them in production know-how. Also their core competency is in metals, so expect some progress in the core technologies involved in the guntself. Unlike Tata which has used its automotive and electronics/software expertise to modify an existing Denel product and dress it up as "Indigenous".

Well, if you had read the TATA SED statement, it said that 52% of the gun has indigenous component. Which, BTW, is the condition if a product has to be procured from Indian companies - even if they have JV with foreign companies.

The actual gun itself is made by Denel not Tata.

Secondly, if there is a confirmed order, I don't see a reason for TATA SED/DENEL to not move the full tech production in the country.

That is speculation. AFAIK Tata itself has not released any information on what arrangement they have reached with Denel. Have they bought the design and production IP to freely produce it locally? Or is it like BEML's deal for the Zuzana where they make the prime mover and import the gun itself. What good does that do? It not just that they have not clarified this they are even being quite evasive about the origins of the gun. Not surprising given that Denel is a blacklisted company. And this might make it dead on arrival.

As for Bharat Forge - well, best of luck to them. GCF Union had threatened to go on strike the moment they learnt that TATA SED is developing a 155 mm gun. They relented only when they were told that TATA gun is in a different category. BF gun is very much in the same category as GCF, Jabalpur. Let us see how the same plays out.

It is the job of the Raksha Mantri/MoD to reform, modernize and make the OFBs/DPSUs more competitive. Unfortunately the RM and MoD is guided by inertia, so we cant really expect any change.

The OFB/DPSU are themselves known for dressing up foreign product as domestic and passing it own to Services. The Zuzana Wheeled SP Gun is a prime example of the same. So, why discriminate against private player? At least things will be done more efficiently with better QC.

Put the private players in the same position as the OFBs/DPSUs and I don't doubt they would be doing the same.

[Picklu]

^^^ the best bet would be BF/OFB Gun on TATA prime mover plus electronics. if only wishes were horses ....

[abhik]

Posted in the BR main page:-
Govt clears Rs 1,500 crore proposal for Pinaka rockets

.. the government has approved a Rs 1,500 crore proposal for production of more than 2,000 rockets..

Does this mean each Pinaka rocket costs ~ 75 lac? Not exactly cheap.

[Aditya_V]

Posted in the BR main page:-
Govt clears Rs 1,500 crore proposal for Pinaka rockets

.. the government has approved a Rs 1,500 crore proposal for production of more than 2,000 rockets..

Does this mean each Pinaka rocket costs ~ 75 lac? Not exactly cheap.

Or as it shown in other thread its a typo and it is for 20,000 rockets, still INR 7.5 lac per rocket.

[member_20317]

^^
http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home/Our ... Chap_8.pdf

The Ministry of Defence, in March
2006, i.e. 20 years after the project was sanctioned, finally entrusted the
production of various components of the system to different production
agencies that included two private sector firms16 (rocket launchers), Bharat
Earth Movers Limited, a public sector undertaking (chassis for support
vehicles), and the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) for rockets.
The order on OFB was placed by the Army, in November that year, who were
required to supply 4752 rockets at a total cost of Rs. 767.28 crore during the
period 2007-12. OFB, in turn, assigned the task of producing the rockets to
nine17 Ordnance Factories (OF).

~ 16 lacs per shot.

But you are right I tried running it but did not make sense. The only thing I came up with was it carries x10 rockets.

Unit Cost--------INR in Cr..........faksfj
3.19--------------332................. 3.19*104 tatra Kolos
1614646--------698..................1614646*18 firing units*2 regiments*12 rockets*10 loads/10000000

0.58 million USD to a firing unit. Assumed all trucks of whatever whatever at same cost.

[Katare]

OFB's manufacturing capacity is being agumented to 2000 rockets/year from 1000 rockets/year now.

[ShauryaT]

Put the private players in the same position as the OFBs/DPSUs and I don't doubt they would be doing the same.

With one key difference. The profit motive! It is this motive that will compel them to perform better, compete or die, lower costs, innovate for better ROI, beg, borrow or steal and become self sufficient. A DSPU has no such corresponding motives, except for claimed but hollow patriotism. Are we saying private Indians are less patriotic than govt companies or employees? I do not think so.

[srin]

OFB's manufacturing capacity is being agumented to 2000 rockets/year from 1000 rockets/year now.

Correct - an order for 2000 rockets is not being placed. The manufacturing capacity (new production line, maybe ?) is being enhanced.

[member_20317]

What I am suspect is that the IA recomendation of 2012 which is what this MoD ok about, carried a full plan for raising 2 regiments and the associated consumables, with funds for all of it being released most likely in staggered progress payments and it also carries a component for the initial build up for the jigs and infra in place for the full 2000 rocket capacity. Oh! BTW 2000 rocket benchmark implies not just the rockets rather the whole system. For Rs. 1500 Cr you would get close to 9000 pinaka rockets had it been only rockets.

Apparently from what I read OFB till date has supplied on 1500-2000 rockets @ less then 30% production to its capacity of 1000 rockets per annum. Now for 36 launchers expected in the first 2 regiments that is a way above x20 stock. Now for the additional 1000 rockets capacity OFB would need a further funding. Also the recommedation is for a 5 year scaling up of the capacity to 5000 rockets per annum. That would mean the jingo wish for a stock of 20000 rockets is very much on the cards. But the timelines are still anybodies guess. The money is on the table for only an additional 1000 rockets p.a. as of now.

[Philip]

Great....but before we start celebrating,what was that report about the OFB which produced thousands of crores worth of useless tank ammo,artillery shells or whatever? With such a large order,there must be regular quality control measures in place and if the OFB screws up,heads must roll! Severe penalties must be imposed on both PSUs and Pvt. players.Because of the defective ammo,we are importing a few thousands of crores worth of ammo,ATG missiles whatever, from Russia.

In fact,the entire list of small arms,MGs,mortars,utility mil.vehicles,upto ICVs apart from artillery should be opened up to pvt. Indian industry.FDI upto 35% should be allowed and the GOI too can take a small stake if need be ,alllowing controlling shares with the pvt. player.

[abhik]

Put the private players in the same position as the OFBs/DPSUs and I don't doubt they would be doing the same.

With one key difference. The profit motive! It is this motive that will compel them to perform better, compete or die, lower costs, innovate for better ROI, beg, borrow or steal and become self sufficient. A DSPU has no such corresponding motives, except for claimed but hollow patriotism. Are we saying private Indians are less patriotic than govt companies or employees? I do not think so.

On the contrary the profit motive would make it worse. Consider that BEML was able to post blockbuster profits on the Tatra trucks because of the huge mark-up. A private entity in BEML's place will simply be more efficient in profiteering.

[rohitvats]

On the contrary the profit motive would make it worse. Consider that BEML was able to post blockbuster profits on the Tatra trucks because of the huge mark-up. A private entity in BEML's place will simply be more efficient in profiteering.

BEML making huge profit on the TATRA deal is exactly what is wrong with the entire DPSU set-up.

BEML was able to make money because the MOD was the judge-jury-plaintiff all rolled into one. So, MOD was milking Services through BEML and making itself look good. Services had no recourse to any complaint because at the end of the day, MOD controlled everything. The DPSU can very well ask the Service to go fly a kite in case they took up the matter with it directly. The corruption angle meant that gravy train was too lucrative to be let go.

Rank corruption by way of collusion between private players and MOD powers is the only way private companies can fleece Services. Other wise, a well drafted contract can take care of most of the risk of procurement. There is no such recourse available with DPSUs as they are MOD's own babies.

[ShauryaT]

abhik ji: I think it was obvious that a DPSU that is owned by its customer having a profit motive is oxymoronic. It is a simple equation really, the more guarantees one provides the worse the performance. The incentives were never there. Even if you put in a Modi into this setup, you may see a turn around for a while, but the idea is structurally flawed. Far better to nurture some private players, who have to earn their way after some baby sitting.

[svinayak]

Made in India - Enter The Big Guns

ANy UN treaty to cut arms trade has to be made irralavent

[Yagnasri]

In fact UN treaty is a boon for India if taken in right "spirit".

[gkriish]

On the contrary the profit motive would make it worse. Consider that BEML was able to post blockbuster profits on the Tatra trucks because of the huge mark-up. A private entity in BEML's place will simply be more efficient in profiteering.

BEML making huge profit on the TATRA deal is exactly what is wrong with the entire DPSU set-up.

BEML was able to make money because the MOD was the judge-jury-plaintiff all rolled into one. So, MOD was milking Services through BEML and making itself look good. Services had no recourse to any complaint because at the end of the day, MOD controlled everything. The DPSU can very well ask the Service to go fly a kite in case they took up the matter with it directly. The corruption angle meant that gravy train was too lucrative to be let go.

Rank corruption by way of collusion between private players and MOD powers is the only way private companies can fleece Services. Other wise, a well drafted contract can take care of most of the risk of procurement. There is no such recourse available with DPSUs as they are MOD's own babies.

No Sir BEML was not making money out of Tatra deal in fact the company manufactured the TATRA unit in loss however in the name of BEML few individuals and Babus Nethas both state and central up to the top of the political family was making money out of it....... One more info for the BRF members to talk about still the Tainted BEML Ex CMD VRS Natarajan is not behind Bars because if he goes he will spill the bean on other politicians and babus and Netas

[rohitvats]

No Sir BEML was not making money out of Tatra deal in fact the company manufactured the TATRA unit in loss however in the name of BEML few individuals and Babus Nethas both state and central up to the top of the political family was making money out of it....... One more info for the BRF members to talk about still the Tainted BEML Ex CMD VRS Natarajan is not behind Bars because if he goes he will spill the bean on other politicians and babus and Netas

BEML was selling the TATRA vehicles for up to 1 cr to Indian Army while the same was retailing in Europe at 50%-60% price point. In fact, the main TATRA company was selling the vehicles at loss to the intermediary set up to sell to BEML. So, how was BEML making loss on sale to the IA?

[member_23364]

I keep reading that Tatra trucks cost 1 crore each and they sell for 50-60% less in Europe. Having stayed in Britain and continental Europe, this is not something i agree with.

The place where I bought my used car from also had a sister truck dealership in UK and i happened to check the prices stuck to the 6X6 or bigger trucks. 1-2 year old trucks usually cost >80,000 GBP.

See the ad below for a 1 year old 6X6 Tipper truck (tippers are usually cheaper than Mil grade trucks and more expensive than flatbeds) which is 90K GBP (INR 75L). And these are USED.

http://www.mascus.co.uk/transportation/ ... izn0l.html

Now I am in the US and only tractors (the cab and the engine)retails for $100,000+

http://www.truckenterprises.com/pre_own ... Vb63ByHsXg.

And these are all commercial trucks, not mil grade.

Was the 1 crore figure for smaller than 6x6 Tatra trucks ? I thought IA Tatras were 8X8 or larger?

Or did the Indian Army import used Tatras? (unlikely)

And how much does a comparable TATA or Ashok Leyland 6X6 or a 6X8 truck cost?

[mody]

Finally the upgrade of M46 130 mm guns approved by the govt. Upgrade to be done by OFB, most probably GCF-Jabalpur.
Hopefully 420-600 guns will be upgraded to 155 mm 45 cal standard. Will be a good way to add some muscle on the cheap.
should be fairly good for the plains. In the mountains, since the barrels cannot be elevated beyond a certain degree, comparable to Howitzers, the effectiveness would be slightly limited.
Anyone know what is the maximum elevation that the upgraded guns can achieve? What is the maximum elevation angle that the currently Soltam upgraded guns capable of?

[Pratyush]

A nube sawal to all the gurus. What is the difference in a field gun and a Howitzer?

[Lalmohan]

howitzers usually allow for high angles of elevation to lob shells 'over' obstacles/long ranges
field guns tend to be used more for direct fire