Artillery Discussion Thread

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 Sep 2012 10:32

singha hopefully not the gold plated version which wil be in 10s of the units

jai · Post by **jai** » 14 Sep 2012 11:32

Howitzers tender scrapped again

NEW DELHI: Government has scrapped an army tender worth over Rs 4,600 crore to procure 180 self-propelled howitzers, the fourth such cancellation, and initiated a fresh process in this regard. The tender issued two years back was cancelled recently following complaints of snag in the guns of one of the two companies. The two companies include Konstrukta of Slovakia and Rheinmetall of Germany.

[/quote]

Nothing will happen till we get a clean government at the center.[/quote]

I fear given the political climate, govt's only interest now would be to divert spending to populist schemes to get votes. Two years of major spending on sops now would mean the new govt may not have enough funds first two years to push Def. modernization back on track. In the meantime costs will go up, and induction schedules will get pushed into the next decade. I am so hoping some foreign power pushes GOI into buying some good guns - even to increase their internal employments - as long as we get some good guns

kit · Post by **kit** » 14 Sep 2012 14:06

jai wrote:
Howitzers tender scrapped again

NEW DELHI: Government has scrapped an army tender worth over Rs 4,600 crore to procure 180 self-propelled howitzers, the fourth such cancellation, and initiated a fresh process in this regard. The tender issued two years back was cancelled recently following complaints of snag in the guns of one of the two companies. The two companies include Konstrukta of Slovakia and Rheinmetall of Germany.

Nothing will happen till we get a clean government at the center.[/quote]

I fear given the political climate, govt's only interest now would be to divert spending to populist schemes to get votes. Two years of major spending on sops now would mean the new govt may not have enough funds first two years to push Def. modernization back on track. In the meantime costs will go up, and induction schedules will get pushed into the next decade. I am so hoping some foreign power pushes GOI into buying some good guns - even to increase their internal employments - as long as we get some good guns

[/quote]

Someone in bureaucracy making sure the other chaps doesn't make any money as he is not getting any cuts..i don't think it has actually anything to about technical capabilities.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Sep 2012 16:35

The answer to this mess is for the IA to issue a clear and precise GSQR to the pvt industry and give them 5 years to deliver. Else we will waste another 20 years trying to get the guns.

PS:- I hope that every one that could be blacklisted has been blacklisted in this mess.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Sep 2012 09:33

The answer is to first "blacklist the blacklisters",than hand over the decision-making task to the IA and watch results happen at record speed!

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 17 Sep 2012 00:21

Yes - the IA's efficiency in the case of Arjun is well documented. We will probably end up ordering 1000s of imported guns!!

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 17 Sep 2012 07:40

^^And that is undesirable to some posters because???

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 17 Sep 2012 08:46

Arun Menon wrote:^^And that is undesirable to some posters because???

Not undesirable. Just ironic.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Sep 2012 15:25

Arun Menon wrote:^^And that is undesirable to some posters because???

Dependency on Foreign Suppliers for Key weaponary when we have a better solution made in India is definately Not Smart.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Sep 2012 17:01

^^^

Having the IA deprived of modern arty is perhaps a CBM. So they keep on asking for a foreign arty piece and then blacklist the potential supplier.

If heaven forbid an Indian supplier designed an indigenous solution, It will be made to under go a million years of tests and a toke numbers will be ordered.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Sep 2012 17:39

To be fair to the IA and desi innovators,haven't a sizable number of Russian 130mm guns been upgraded to 155mm because of the delays in decision making? Also rememebr that the IA was not in the "driviing seat" as far as Arjun was concerned-the weight issue was allegedly harped upon by the IA for aeons(but as I've said,what did the IA say about A's weght and when did they say it?).The point being made here is that once you put the services in charge of desi projects they will have to perform or face humiliation and disgrace. In the IN's case,they can blame no one but themselves if the yards are in their control.Hncee chance oif better results.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 17 Sep 2012 20:22

^^
How many 130mm do we have and how many have been upgunned to 155mm? Material on internet is scattered and limited, so asking...

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 17 Sep 2012 21:58

Philip wrote:Also rememebr that the IA was not in the "driviing seat" as far as Arjun was concerned-the weight issue was allegedly harped upon by the IA for aeons(but as I've said,what did the IA say about A's weght and when did they say it?)

I think you missed the point being made there.

The IA was not in the driving seat for Arjun (as they should have been), but the point was that they took the opportunity provided by the long genesis time for the Arjun to push through on large numbers of T-90s and fill the void created. That part of the effort WAS under their control and they used it effectively to crush a indigenous project and move on. And BRFites have been crying about that savage culling process for years.

Its ironic now that we must depend on the same efficiency displayed by the Army and suggest that they DO use it to fill another void left by this artillery mess.

But because the effort does not involve crushing another indigenous project (I hope!), perhaps we all will be better for it.

Ironic times indeed.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Sep 2012 23:05

Ajay Sharma wrote:^^
How many 130mm do we have and how many have been upgunned to 155mm? Material on internet is scattered and limited, so asking...

Well, in the mid 90s IA did purchase substantial amount of 130mm guns from Russia and it seems at throw away prices. As per 2009 Parliamentary Standing Committee Report, IA is authorized 180 Field and Medium Regiments. Earlier, the ratio of Field to Medium Regiments would have been (IMO) slightly less than 3:1 (an infantry divisions artillery brigade has (had?) 3 x Field Regiments + 1 x medium regiment)...but, now it seems that ratio is reaching 1:1.

As for upgrade of 130mm guns to 155/45 caliber using the Soltam kit, the initial order was for 180 guns or 10 regiment worth. From what I've read, after initial hiccups, the entire conversion went through. IIRC, the second round of up gradation of I think double/more than this number is in pipeline.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 17 Sep 2012 23:19

^^
Thanks RV

Thats what I thought too.

What is confusing is that as per Janes it was more than 180. Moreover, a (new) program called metamorphosis from IOB is at a prototype stage

http://articles.janes.com/articles/Jane ... India.html

The first contract covered the upgrade of 180 systems with follow on contracts expected to cover an additional batch of 200 to 250 units. Recent information has indicated that no follow on orders were placed with Soltam Systems. Details of the Soltam Systems 130 mm M-46 field gun upgrade are provided in a separate entry in Jane's Artillery and Air Defence. It is not known as to whether the recently revealed Indian Ordnance Factory Board Metamorphosis M-46 155 mm/45-calibre upgraded weapon was developed in competition to the Soltam Systems design or as a possible alternative.The Indian Ordnance Factory Board upgraded weapon is also referred to as the IOB M46 Field Gun (FG).This upgraded weapon is being offered on the export market by the Indian Ordnance Factory Board.As of January 2012 it is understood that the Metamorphosis upgrade remained at the prototype stage. It is known to have been demonstrated overseas, including the Middle East.

.... and http://articles.janes.com/articles/Jane ... srael.html

Recent information has stated that the total value of the first contract to upgrade 180 weapons in Israel is about INR2.07 billion (USD48.13 million). Upgrading of the follow on batch of weapons was carried out in India at Kanpur and Jabalpur.Recent information has indicated that no follow on contracts have been placed by the Indian MoD with Soltam Systems for additional 130 mm M-46 field gun upgrade kits.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Sep 2012 00:09

^^^AS, the report is correct in the sense that first set of upgrade was done for 180 guns. From what I know, the subsequent set of upgrade did not go through. I remember reading an article by ex-DG Arty where the number of guns to be upgraded in second tranche was stated to be 360.

As for Metamorphosis program of the OFB (it is listed on their website as well:http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wlc/4.htm). - what is not known is whether it is based on Soltam supplied kits or a home grown solution. There are reports which say it is based on same Soltam kit which was used to upgrade first tranche of 180 guns.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 21 Sep 2012 14:18

What happend to the production of bofors guns based on the designs etc avaliable with us. Heard nothing on the progress in this. I wonder if they stopped this effort.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 22 Sep 2012 14:52

Antony to review indigenous artillery howitzers - Firstpost

New Delhi: Defence Minister AK Antony will on Saturday review progress of the work on two types of indigenous artillery howitzers being developed for the army by the Ordnance Factory Board at its facility in Jabalpur.

During his one-day visit to Jabalpur in Madhya Pradesh, the defence minister will also visit the vehicle factory which manufactures trucks for the army.

The army, which has failed to induct even a single artillery gun in the last 25 years, is eagerly waiting for the indigenously manufactured guns which are being developed after the transfer of technology of the controversial Bofors guns.

Recently, Antony had said the two types of howitzers for the army will be ready for trials by December and by June next year respectively.

The clearance for the project was accorded by the defence ministry’s Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) in its meeting in October last year granting permission to the Ordnance Factory Board to manufacture 155mm howitzers.

Under the project, the OFB will manufacture two prototypes of 155mm 39 calibre FH-77-B02 guns and the upgraded version of 155 mm/45 calibre howitzers.

The decision to allow the OFB to manufacture these guns was taken after the army failed in more than four attempts to modernise its artillery.

The army has made several attempts to procure four types of howitzers, but all of them have failed due to one reason or the other.

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 23 Sep 2012 21:32

Army to induct indigenous howitzers in 2013: AK Antony

After failing to induct artillery guns in the last over 25 years, the Indian Army will get its first indigenously-manufactured howitzer next year, Defence Minister AK Antony said in Jabalpur on Saturday.

The guns produced in the unit (Ordnance Factory) will be inducted in the Army by 2013, he said after launching the facility to manufacture 155 mm howitzers at the Gun Carriage Factory.

The army, which has not inducted artillery guns in the last 25 years, is eagerly waiting for the indigenously manufactured weapons which are being developed on the basis of the transfer of technology of the Bofors guns.

The two types of howitzers for the army will be ready for trials by December and by June next year respectively.

The clearance for the project was accorded by the Defence Ministry's Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) in its meeting in October last year granting permission to the Ordnance Factory Board to manufacture 155mm howitzers.

Under the project, the OFB will manufacture two prototypes of 155mm 39 calibre FH-77-B02 guns and the upgraded version of 155 mm/45 calibre howitzers.

The decision to allow the OFB to manufacture these guns was taken after the army failed in more than four attempts to modernise its artillery.

The army has made several attempts to procure four types of howitzers, but all of them have failed due to one reason or the other.

Antony said that plans are afoot for modernisation of ordnance factories in the country saying, "There are a total of 39 ordnance factories in the country and all of them are doing a good work in production of weapons for the Army".

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Sep 2012 01:10

The decision to allow the OFB to manufacture these guns was taken after the army failed in more than four attempts to modernise its artillery.

The army has made several attempts to procure four types of howitzers, but all of them have failed due to one reason or the other.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 25 Sep 2012 11:34

varunkumar wrote:
Army to induct indigenous howitzers in 2013: AK Antony

After failing to induct artillery guns in the last over 25 years, the Indian Army will get its first indigenously-manufactured howitzer next year, Defence Minister AK Antony said in Jabalpur on Saturday.

The guns produced in the unit (Ordnance Factory) will be inducted in the Army by 2013, he said after launching the facility to manufacture 155 mm howitzers at the Gun Carriage Factory.

The army, which has not inducted artillery guns in the last 25 years, is eagerly waiting for the indigenously manufactured weapons which are being developed on the basis of the transfer of technology of the Bofors guns.

The two types of howitzers for the army will be ready for trials by December and by June next year respectively.

The clearance for the project was accorded by the Defence Ministry's Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) in its meeting in October last year granting permission to the Ordnance Factory Board to manufacture 155mm howitzers.

Under the project, the OFB will manufacture two prototypes of 155mm 39 calibre FH-77-B02 guns and the upgraded version of 155 mm/45 calibre howitzers.

The decision to allow the OFB to manufacture these guns was taken after the army failed in more than four attempts to modernise its artillery.

The army has made several attempts to procure four types of howitzers, but all of them have failed due to one reason or the other.

Antony said that plans are afoot for modernisation of ordnance factories in the country saying, "There are a total of 39 ordnance factories in the country and all of them are doing a good work in production of weapons for the Army".

Now, we would get some indigenous guns! This is one case where the bogey of corruption has helped indigenisation.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Sep 2012 12:08

^^^

Cross your fingers that the trials don't go on for 10 years and then a dozen are ordered.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 29 Sep 2012 14:45

^^^ Sirjee, I'll take that.. It is still better than getting nothing for 25+ years, don't you think..

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 01 Oct 2012 19:27

144 indigenous howitzers approved for Army: Antony

NEW DELHI: Defence Ministry has cleared a proposal to induct 144 indigenously-developed 155mm howitzers into the Army for which trials will be held later this year.

The 155mm artillery guns are being developed indigenously by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) in Jabalpur on the basis of Transfer of Technology of the controversial Swiss Bofors guns, which were inducted into the Army in late 1980s.

"The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has cleared a proposal for production of 144 155mm guns (in the Army). Winter trials will take place in December and summer trials in June," defence minister A K Antony told reporters here.

He expressed hope that these trials would be successful "so that after 30 years, India can have upgraded 155mm guns."

The defence minister had recently visited Jabalpur to review the progress in the development of these guns. The Army has not been able to induct even a single new piece of artillery gun in the last 25 years despite several attempts.

Asked about recent reports suggesting that the Defence Ministry was curbing the financial powers of the DRDO chief, Antony said, "That is not correct. We are in the process of delegation of more powers to the various wings of the Defence Ministry."

"When there is delegation of power, we have to set right things more systematically. It is not confined to DRDO or BrahMos but to entire Defence Ministry family. Out of our past experience, whenever there is more delegation, there should be more transparent systems. There should be check and balance," he said.

The minister said efforts to bring in more accountability and transparency in financial management was for "common good and not for one person or one institution."

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Oct 2012 19:34

Tatra trucks used to be parked backside of my appartment and had visited the factories in Jabalpur which also has other installations which I can not mention. No Arti peaces are seen during my stay there. Hope a lot will start comming there.

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Oct 2012 21:49

NEW DELHI: Defence Ministry has cleared a proposal to induct 144 indigenously-developed 155mm howitzers into the Army for which trials will be held later this year.

Would have done a lungi dance but knowing the IA and the artillery saga, would wait till it actually happens unless a new vigilance case starts and the whole thing is called off!!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Oct 2012 22:22

So, just checking on the terminologies here.. trials then -> approval or approval -> trials? I think, the most aspects of the gun has been done to good user satisfaction, and those which needs correction from user feedback shall be taken on tranche based. If that is the message, then MoD could look at higher or better approval process, where when DRDO satisfies the user on minimum success criteria, then could start making components, so that factory and production engineering issues could be sorted out earlier in time.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Oct 2012 10:46

^^^^

Fingers crossed. That the guns will be inducted and the IA will place follow on orders.

Will · Post by **Will** » 02 Oct 2012 12:33

Think this is just a stop gap measure till DRDO develops the 155mm 52 cal gun. It's really pathetic that we havent had an indigenous gun project till now.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Oct 2012 22:48

The inside jobbers and lobbyists will prevent things happening towards authentic wishes.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 20 Oct 2012 21:56

Not sure if video posted before

Indian Army to get 155 MM Gun by year end

Will · Post by **Will** » 21 Oct 2012 01:51

A Sharma wrote:Not sure if video posted before

Indian Army to get 155 MM Gun by year end

What a Dork!! The reporter I mean. Trying to hide the fact that its just an upgraded Bofors gun.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 21 Oct 2012 06:51

Will wrote: What a Dork!! The reporter I mean. Trying to hide the fact that its just an upgraded Bofors gun.

I can see a dork alright, it just ain't the reporter. Some people need to demean and deride anything good (however small) that happens in India and to Indians. This is a gun that IA did not get for decades, a gun that will save the lives of soldiers should there be a war. When the Chinese copy and improve something, that is to be emulated, but when Indians do it, its less than nothing. But hey, that is just my opinion.

Will · Post by **Will** » 21 Oct 2012 14:53

Arun Menon wrote:
Will wrote: What a Dork!! The reporter I mean. Trying to hide the fact that its just an upgraded Bofors gun.

I can see a dork alright, it just ain't the reporter. Some people need to demean and deride anything good (however small) that happens in India and to Indians. This is a gun that IA did not get for decades, a gun that will save the lives of soldiers should there be a war. When the Chinese copy and improve something, that is to be emulated, but when Indians do it, its less than nothing. But hey, that is just my opinion.

Dude Dude give credit where credit is due and call a spade a spade when you see one. How far have the Chinese got with their copy and paste stuff? Its only now that they are trying to do something on their own. There are some people in here who think that India should follow the Chinese path of copy and paste. That is the mentality that has landed India in the state it is in now. No one is trying to take away any credit from Indian scientists for the job they have done on the upgrade. My bone to pick is with the reporter for not putting things in perspective. Not to take away anything form OFB for the job they did on the upgrade but on a forward looking note, it is when DRDO has its 155mm 52 cal gun ready, that will be the time to celebrate for all Indians who really care about the country and not just being jingostic.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 21 Oct 2012 21:53

It is not a stolen copy & Paste. India has paid for the Bofors technology. And it is trying to implement it now.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 21 Oct 2012 22:43

What a dork you are Will! This is a good development!

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 21 Oct 2012 22:47

I like the chinese strategy. Begged, borrowed or stolen. On the battlefield these are not going to matter. What matters is how much metal you can dump on the opponent's base. Anything that helps us do just that is more than welcome.

Will · Post by **Will** » 22 Oct 2012 00:03

Vivek K wrote:What a dork you are Will! This is a good development!

Whos the dork? Who said its not a good development? My comment was on the reporter not on the upgrade

.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 22 Oct 2012 00:20

You are critical of the process - i.e. reverse engineering. Why? That is dorky!

mody · Post by **mody** » 22 Oct 2012 12:59

I would say the way forward for the Indian artillery should be as below:

1). 144 nos. of OFB 155 mm-39 cal. Start production by 2013.
2). 144 nos. of OFB 155 mm-45 cal. Start production by 2015, once the production of no. 1). is finished.
3). Restart/speed up the upgradation of 130 mm field guns to 155 mm/39 cal howitzers. (Not sure if the upgrade can convert the field guns to true howitzers or not. I recall that there was a problem with the max firing angle that the gun could achieve, even after the upgrade.). However, the program would still provide a cheap option to bring up the numbers.
The upgrade should be given to the OFB to finish the upgrade process, so that we end up with atleast 600 of these upgraded guns.
No need for Soltam kits. If the OFB can produce a bofors clone and can make the barrels and other critical components in house, they sure can upgrade the old 130 mm guns as well.
4). Kalyani Forge 155 mm/52 cal gun to be made ready by 2014. The gun is based on the old Austrian gun, being upgraded to 52 cal from the original 39 cal.
I would suggest that DRDO should also join this effort and provide the software and other automation related components for this gun itself. The DRDO developed WLR should also be integrated with this gun. There is no point developing a new gun from scratch by DRDO.
Either this or DRDO should take up the OFB/old bofors gun as the starting block and start developing, an upgraded 155mm 52 cal version, with better fire control software etc.
Produce 800-1000 nos. of Towed guns based on either of these two options. No point in having both the options.
Production should hopefully start by 2015-16 time frame.

5). Once the 155 mm/52 cal has matured enough in the development phase, the basic components of the gun should be taken up by DRDO for integration with the Arjun chassis for the reborn Bheem project. The development can then proceed along with the development of the towed gun, trailing the development of the towed gun, by perhaps a year or 18 months.
Produce 180-240 nos. of these with production starting end of 2016 or early 2017.

6). Along with no. 5). also start development of wheeled self propelled gun, mounted on a 6x6 or a 8x8 truck developed by the Tata's or leyland. DRDO would take the basis parts of the 155mm/52 cal towed gun, to be mounted on the truck chassis, in partnership with the truck manufacturer. The key points to develop would be the auto loader system, fire control software, integrated with Weapons Locating Radar etc.
Produce 600 truck mounted guns, with production starting 2017.

Apart from the above the induction of the 145 nos. of M777 and 105 LFG for the mountains. I also like the mounted 105 mm gun option shown by the OFB. Would provide much better mobility as compared to a towed gun. Maybe a version with a 155 mm/39 cal gun can also be explored.

If all of the above go through smoothly, then by 2020, we can field the required strength of arty that can stare down the Chinese and scare the sh!t out of the porkies.