Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 May 2010 00:58

Gerard, First let them develop a vehicle for the 1.5 tonne AIII payload that goes 5000km. Magambo will be khush.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 27 May 2010 02:26

He has 3 rings and a red thread for god sakes. And two are gem stone embedded. That is so common I don't know why such a big deal is made out of it.

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 27 May 2010 03:01

prithvi wrote: I was under the impression that head of a scientific institute like DRDO (Mr. Saraswat) will have less reliance on the intervention of gems and astrology on personal and professional fate!! look at the number of gems rings he is wearing...!!

Acclaimed mathematicians cum astronomers, Aryabhatta and Varahmihira were both eminent astrologers as well. Their association with astrology doesn't nullify or dilute the contribution which they have made in the progress & development of this world. Just because the western world discards Indian astrology, we don't need to treat it as if it is some kind of disease.

In the case of Dr Saraswat, we must focus on his work and not the number of rings on his fingers. If he continues doing the good work for the country, then I won't mind even if he runs on the road wearing the same stuff which the good old Archimedes wore while shouting Eureka.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 May 2010 04:02

Actually it reflects on the commenter's mind not Dr. Saraswat's mind.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 27 May 2010 04:39

ramana wrote:Actually it reflects on the commenter's mind not Dr. Saraswat's mind.

Newton of course was an occultist. But the point is valid for this is the 21 century, only it is not really anyone's business but the wearer of the talisman.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 27 May 2010 06:20

ramana wrote:Actually it reflects on the commenter's mind not Dr. Saraswat's mind.

one simple observation made such huge hue and cry..we are so reactive as a whole.. I repeat I have utmost respect for anyone who is remotely involved in protecting the border of my country. If this observation has offended so many people then I sincerely apologize. I am sure this OT is going to stop soon and people are going to jump into Saraswat's recent comment's armed forces inclination for buying foreign stuffs... and all .. so I put this "Astrology" stuff into back burner...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 May 2010 06:24

could we PLEASE stop this conversation on rings ? this is the missile thread for heaven's sake.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 May 2010 07:26

Apologies RahulM-ji. Couldn't get this post before your note

Dr. Saraswat is right in wearing the rings at three levels

1. Actor - He is wearing them so they would protect his well being so he can perform at his best capabilities.

2. Action - Since his work involves public good, he is doing the right thing by wearing auspicious symbols/gems suitable to his work.

3. Result - Hinduism believes that god-consciousness is present in everything. By wearing the suitable gems he is invoking the scientific consciousness in the final product.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 27 May 2010 08:58

ramana wrote:Gerard, First let them develop a vehicle for the 1.5 tonne AIII payload that goes 5000km. Magambo will be khush.

What gets my goat is the utterly stupid spin they are trying to put on A5 - calling an IRBM as an ICBM. Since the next class of SSBNs will be built around the dimensions of A5 (as opposed to a real ICBM), we will in effect be paralyzing the 3rd leg of our nuclear triad. Its a shame.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 May 2010 09:12

5000km with 1.5t payload is not a bad thing, with a 600kg payload (couple of mirv) it will go further.

secondly, the submarine dimensions cannot grow realistically for us beyond accomodating a 12m length (using humpback) and 2.5m diameter and 40t weight. The A5 (A3SL) will likely fill this volume fully. it has to be 3 stage, yet be shorter by 4mts than current A3(16m).
further improvements will need to be in propellant, drag reduction and going composite in all stages (trident style) as well as lighter warheads (if we resume testing).

in short I think A5 is new name for A3SL(Arun_S name) and will be a common missile for land (railway) and submarine use, even the gas generator used to cold launch the thing may be common and it will go up topol-M style...igniting 1st stage as it clears the launch tube.

pls correct me if A5 != A3SL

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 27 May 2010 09:22

Singha wrote:5000km with 1.5t payload is not a bad thing, with a 600kg payload (couple of mirv) it will go further.

Its not a bad thing - agreed. But why are we wasting our time releasing Agni versions with incremental improvements in range. ICBMs are not exactly cutting edge.

The increase in range with a reduced payload applies in theory. Unless we have tested it at that range (with all the attendant additional stresses, accuracy issues etc), this will remain a theory.

Sure - there will be engineering problems to be solved if we shoot for an SLBM with a 8K+ range. But we are not even attempting it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 May 2010 09:29

>> ICBMs are not exactly cutting edge.

um why is that? we have never built or tested a 3-stage missile with mirv payload and cansister launch from land, let alone sea. if the diameter increases from A3 to account for shorter length, needs new solid motors. also more use of composites are essential for airframe.

it is not cutting edge work for US/france/Russia who have deployed multiple families of such products but for India it is - esp because no foreign help can be obtained in these programs. every problem has to be solved by us. every crucial comp which ISRO can import cannot
be imported.

perhaps going for a 5000km weapon is the current indian limit in technology to package within the given dimensions and/or risk reduction
in shooting for goals that can be achieved in a timely manner. there is no point producing a half baked bulava-mki next year which fails 50% of tests after a dozen tests.

as mentioned, the SSBN dimension cannot increase beyond what Arun_s drew for A3SL due to cost and technology issues for us - we simply cannot afford to make a typhoon class even if we had the tech base for it - which we dont.

koti · Post by **koti** » 27 May 2010 09:43

Prem Kumar wrote:
Singha wrote:5000km with 1.5t payload is not a bad thing, with a 600kg payload (couple of mirv) it will go further.
Its not a bad thing - agreed. But why are we wasting our time releasing Agni versions with incremental improvements in range. ICBMs are not exactly cutting edge.

The increase in range with a reduced payload applies in theory. Unless we have tested it at that range (with all the attendant additional stresses, accuracy issues etc), this will remain a theory.

Sure - there will be engineering problems to be solved if we shoot for an SLBM with a 8K+ range. But we are not even attempting it.

Going by your point, Our current arsenal already will be having ICBM in the form of A3 with reduced payload.
So increasing the payload and claiming lesser range will be politically a better option.
Added, the higher weight can also accomodate decoy wareheads(In time).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 May 2010 10:30

the political atmosphere is such even if we deploy a SS18-I , it will be claimed as 5000km only. measure the distance from bihar to beijing, our ICBMs will always be claimed <= that.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 May 2010 10:54

If they use maraging steel for building the A-5, then putting it on a sub will mandate a big 'dabba' just like on the Soviet Delta class subs.

They'll have to go in for an all composite missile,just like the Trident D5s for it to be compact enough and have the range to be able to fit into the current sub dimensions.

I can't believe guys found the time to discuss Dr Saraswat's rings! Why not start a thread discussing that major important issue and call it "Lord of the Rings" thread or something?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 May 2010 10:59

there is no option but all-composite to save on weight and increase speed. everyone is going/gone that route.

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 May 2010 12:11

Imo the vented inter stages need to be done away with for keeping the size within limits and more importantly for sub launch capability.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 May 2010 12:56

too many unknowns changing at same time will perhaps be avoided:
- vented interstage
- new high power propellant
- cansister cold launch
- composite casings
- three stage
- fatter diameter
- new RV to withstand mach20+ reentry
- submerged launch

the might retain vented interstage in first cut and live with less size of stages (less range) until A5-AT a few yrs hence.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 28 May 2010 07:33

India Thought Leaders: Hypersonic BrahMos Missile By 2015, CEO Says

BANGALORE - The Indo-Russian BrahMos supersonic missile program has made its mark in the international arena with a series of successful launches and subsequent rapid induction by the Indian Army and Navy. Now an air version of the missile is currently under development and will be fitted onto the Su-30MKI platform when ready. AVIATION WEEK caught up with BrahMos Aerospace CEO and Managing Director A. Sivathanu Pillai to learn more.

AW: Indian media has often hailed your role in making BrahMos a major hit. What do you think has led to your successes so far?

A.S.P.: Joint venture BrahMos is built upon the technological synergy of strengths of the two nations – India and Russia. Moreover, the superiority of the product such as Speed, Precision and Power has ensured the realization of this high-tech product and attracted the users to go for induction of the system in the shortest possible time. It can be proudly said that the Indian Army is the only land force in the entire globe to have a supersonic maneuverable land-attack cruise missile regiment.

AW: Could you please give an update on the program? How many missiles (squadrons) have the Army and Navy inducted?

A.S.P.: As you are aware, the development of both antiship and land-attack versions of BrahMos had been completed successfully and we are in the process of delivering the systems to the Navy and Army. Recently, contracts have been signed for induction of the mobile complex for Indian Army and Indian Air Force. Further orders are in the pipeline. The number of systems will depend on the force strength the services need to have.

AW: What kind of additional orders are we talking about for Army and Navy? What’s the order value?

A.S.P.: As BrahMos will be the first strike weapon with punch, there will be a greater number of ships, mobile launchers and aircraft fitted with the missile. Our order value will exceed $5 billion.

AW: When will the hypersonic version come out? What’s the latest from this front?

A.S.P.: The hypersonic version is on the drawing board and mutual discussions are in progress. We would like to freeze the design aspects in the near future. The realization of the missile would be taken up. Probably five years down the line, we can start testing of the missile.

AW: What kind of role are private industries playing in the success of BrahMos?

A.S.P.: BrahMos is an ideal example for the public-private industries consortium. Many industries had been identified in both India and Russia for manufacture of subsystems. Industries have become the production partners and are extending full support in the timely manufacture of the systems/subsystems. In short, the Missile Industry Consortium has been established in both the countries.

AW: Over the last two years BrahMos Aerospace Thiruvananthapuram Ltd. (BATL) has taken shape in Kerala. Where do you see BATL in the next couple of years?

A.S.P.: BATL was established as a leading aerospace industry and a role model for Kerala. It is expected to grow in the coming years. BATL is primarily for supporting various projects of BrahMos, Defense Research Development Organization and Indian Space Research Organization. In addition, we will be supporting Bhabha Atomic Research Center for the robotic system and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) for engines. The Phase-II expansion will begin after we get additional land and the Phase-III thereafter. The first fully-integrated BrahMos missile is expected to roll out from BATL by 2012.

nash · Post by **nash** » 28 May 2010 09:38

As per article after 5 years testing will start, which might take atleast 2-3 years then induction so by 2020 we can expect this missile is ready for action,IF there is no delay happen(which is highly doubtfull).

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 28 May 2010 16:25

India to Gear Up for 'Star Wars'

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 28 May 2010 16:48

Juggi G wrote:India to Gear Up for 'Star Wars'

Posted earlier mate..

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 28 May 2010 19:37

Barak2 test fire...

Indo-Israeli missile successfully test-fired: DRDO chief

The Indo-Israeli Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LR-SAM) was successfully test fired in Israel last fortnight. "The 70-km missile was fired at an electronic target and met with its initial objectives," DRDO chief Dr Vijay Saraswat said in an exclusive interview with India Today.

The second test of the missile will be held in India sometime later this year. The missile will be integrated by Indian technicians. The LR-SAM area defence missile is being jointly developed by India and Israel under a Rs 2500 crore project which began in 2006. The missile, also called the Barak-2 are to equip the three guided missile destroyers of the Project 15A class. The three destroyers are to join the Indian navy in one year intervals beginning in 2012.

"We will deliver the system to the armed forces in 2013. I am very confident it will be an astounding success," Dr Saraswat said. A second variant, called the Medium Range SAM (MR-SAM) is being developed for the Indian Air Force under a Rs 10,000 crore project signed in 2009. The MR-SAM is to replace all the IAF's ageing Soviet-made Pechora SAM missiles. According to naval officials, a 100-km range theatre defence version called the Extended Range SAM is being developed for the four Project 15B destroyers.

vic · Post by **vic** » 28 May 2010 20:26

shukla wrote:Barak2 test fire...

Indo-Israeli missile successfully test-fired: DRDO chief
The Indo-Israeli Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LR-SAM) was successfully test fired in Israel last fortnight. "The 70-km missile was fired at an electronic target and met with its initial objectives," DRDO chief Dr Vijay Saraswat said in an exclusive interview with India Today.

The second test of the missile will be held in India sometime later this year. The missile will be integrated by Indian technicians. The LR-SAM area defence missile is being jointly developed by India and Israel under a Rs 2500 crore project which began in 2006. The missile, also called the Barak-2 are to equip the three guided missile destroyers of the Project 15A class. The three destroyers are to join the Indian navy in one year intervals beginning in 2012.

"We will deliver the system to the armed forces in 2013. I am very confident it will be an astounding success," Dr Saraswat said. A second variant, called the Medium Range SAM (MR-SAM) is being developed for the Indian Air Force under a Rs 10,000 crore project signed in 2009. The MR-SAM is to replace all the IAF's ageing Soviet-made Pechora SAM missiles. According to naval officials, [b]a 100-km range theatre defence version called the Extended Range SAM is being developed for the four Project 15B destroyers[/b].

Wonder what is 100km range missile, a variant of Barak-2/8/NG/MRSAM/LRSAM i.e. addition of a booster or something based on AAD?

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 29 May 2010 07:47

Hypersonic BrahMos Missile By 2015, CEO Says

http://idrw.org/?p=1827

BY: AVIATION WEEK

The Indo-Russian BrahMos supersonic missile program has made its mark in the international arena with a series of successful launches and subsequent rapid induction by the Indian Army and Navy. Now an air version of the missile is currently under development and will be fitted onto the Su-30MKI platform when ready. AVIATION WEEK caught up with BrahMos Aerospace CEO and Managing Director A. Sivathanu Pillai to learn more.

AW: Indian media has often hailed your role in making BrahMos a major hit. What do you think has led to your successes so far?

A.S.P.: Joint venture BrahMos is built upon the technological synergy of strengths of the two nations – India and Russia. Moreover, the superiority of the product such as Speed, Precision and Power has ensured the realization of this high-tech product and attracted the users to go for induction of the system in the shortest possible time. It can be proudly said that the Indian Army is the only land force in the entire globe to have a supersonic maneuverable land-attack cruise missile regiment.

AW: Could you please give an update on the program? How many missiles (squadrons) have the Army and Navy inducted?

A.S.P.: As you are aware, the development of both antiship and land-attack versions of BrahMos had been completed successfully and we are in the process of delivering the systems to the Navy and Army. Recently, contracts have been signed for induction of the mobile complex for Indian Army and Indian Air Force. Further orders are in the pipeline. The number of systems will depend on the force strength the services need to have.

AW: What kind of additional orders are we talking about for Army and Navy? What’s the order value?

A.S.P.: As BrahMos will be the first strike weapon with punch, there will be a greater number of ships, mobile launchers and aircraft fitted with the missile. Our order value will exceed $5 billion.

AW: When will the hypersonic version come out? What’s the latest from this front?

A.S.P.: The hypersonic version is on the drawing board and mutual discussions are in progress. We would like to freeze the design aspects in the near future. The realization of the missile would be taken up. Probably five years down the line, we can start testing of the missile.

AW: What kind of role are private industries playing in the success of BrahMos?

A.S.P.: BrahMos is an ideal example for the public-private industries consortium. Many industries had been identified in both India and Russia for manufacture of subsystems. Industries have become the production partners and are extending full support in the timely manufacture of the systems/subsystems. In short, the Missile Industry Consortium has been established in both the countries.

AW: Over the last two years BrahMos Aerospace Thiruvananthapuram Ltd. (BATL) has taken shape in Kerala. Where do you see BATL in the next couple of years?

A.S.P.: BATL was established as a leading aerospace industry and a role model for Kerala. It is expected to grow in the coming years. BATL is primarily for supporting various projects of BrahMos, Defense Research Development Organization and Indian Space Research Organization. In addition, we will be supporting Bhabha Atomic Research Center for the robotic system and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) for engines. The Phase-II expansion will begin after we get additional land and the Phase-III thereafter. The first fully-integrated BrahMos missile is expected to roll out from BATL by 2012.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 29 May 2010 08:08

sathyaC wrote:Hypersonic BrahMos Missile By 2015, CEO Says

Same report posted yesterday SathyaC by Craig on the same thread.. worth checking before posting matey..

koti · Post by **koti** » 29 May 2010 16:48

I've guessed the HyperSonic version will have a higher range then ~300KM.
But since it is a collaboration, the MCTR might prevent it from exceeding the same range.
Can anyone throw some light on this?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 May 2010 19:23

Can some noble soul summarize the varied SAM types being inducted/RFP sent and those under development?

There seems to be too much going on for this mango-abdul to keep track off.

Many thanx in advance.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 31 May 2010 10:49

Agni-5 test in a year, but no ICBM programme: DRDO

It's just .5 metres longer than the Agni-3 but can carry a 1.5 ton nuclear warhead to any point in China.

India is to testfire the Agni-5, a missile with a range of over 5000 km, within a year.

Revealing this, DRDO chief Dr VK Saraswat said that testing and evaluation of the sub-systems of the Agni-5 were on and the flight trial of the missile which looks identical to the Agni-3 and approaches ICBM capability would be conducted "within a year".

The missile marks the culmination of the Agni series of strategic missiles Dr Saraswat said.

He denied that India had any programme to build a full-scale Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM)-missiles with ranges in excess of 5500 km.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 31 May 2010 12:57

Rony wrote:He denied that India had any programme to build a full-scale Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM)-missiles with ranges in excess of 5500 km.

Ahaa.. deny in public I guess... Nice work Dr VKS

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 03 Jun 2010 11:19

has drdo done a air launch test of Astra

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 03 Jun 2010 11:23

Still few years away for that

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 03 Jun 2010 11:32

krishnan wrote:Still few years away for that

so it might be ready by the time LCA Mk2 is going in for integration

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 04 Jun 2010 01:31

After Russia and Israel, India to Develop Missiles with France
The Indian Express

After moving ahead with similar projects with Russia and Israel, India is set to finalise a missile co-development project with France to manufacture a new range of Short Range Surface to Air Missiles (SRSAM) for the armed forces. The joint project, which will involve the DRDO and French missile manufacturer MBDA, is likely to be finalised within the next few months.

While India and France initiated the project in 2007 — it is mentioned in the joint statement on defence cooperation between the countries — the project has taken more than three years to finalise. Sources say that the final terms of the agreement are in the process of being finalised. The next generation air defence missile, which will be inducted by the Army, Navy and Air Force, could also be made available for export.

The joint development is likely to take the course of the Indo-Russian Brahmos supersonic cruise missile project that has already borne fruit for the DRDO. India has also recently signed a deal with Israel to co develop a long range surface to air missile to protect its warships and vital assets on the ground.

The Indo-French missile, which has tentatively been named ‘ Maitri ’, will replace the ageing arsenal of Russian missiles that are currently being used by the armed forces to protect airfield and other vital installations. Sources said that the project could be signed as early as August this year to kick start the manufacturing of the missile.

Over the past three years, MBDA and DRDO have finalised the design and performance parameters of the missile to suit the needs of the armed forces. Besides providing the armed forces with a modern air defence missiles, the project will also add a new capability with France that presently does not have a similar missile in production.

India and France are also close to signing an estimated $ 2.2 bn deal to modernise the fleet of Mirage 2000 fighters.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 04 Jun 2010 07:49

Why are we going for so many different systems? We have Spyder, Barak, Barak NG. Now why go for Maitri too?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 04 Jun 2010 07:51

Part of coalation of like minded. We will need different kinds of missiles to deter different kinds of threats. Kind of boiling pot of ideas I guess.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jun 2010 08:12

methinks we should first finish the astra (which uses a mbda radar seeker) and in parallel start work on a desi IIR sr-aam and a desi ramjet aam in collab with them. we just cannot perpetually import foreign missiles - lot of headaches given the diversity of our fighters and the usual "russia wont integrate r77 on 2052 and israel wont integrate derby on bars" kind of issue. instead, obtain help but have our own missile with full control of source codes.

likewise we need to have a desi version of 2052 for full control and flexibility.

Matthew_H · Post by **Matthew_H** » 04 Jun 2010 08:50

DELETED

munna · Post by **munna** » 04 Jun 2010 09:10

Matthew_H wrote:I hope that you find my articles interesting, and that they raise awareness of India’s rapidly evolving dual-use technologies and military space systems. I would like to emphasize that the deployment of these military space systems will only serve to undermine India's security. I also believe the United States is supplying India with dual-use technology to fuel the US defense industry, but more importantly the US is setting India up to be a proxy rival to China

Matthew a few points that might be helpful to the discussion

1) Regarding your point about raising awareness about Indian endeavors in space weapons technologies, they are supposed to be classified if they exist at all, is'nt it? Why do you expect Indians of all people to raise hue and cry against their own government's efforts at advancing the defense capabilities of the nation, if indeed this is the case. Sorry I would rather prefer to raise NO awareness about any programs real or imaginary which concern the capabilities of Indian MIC.

2) You have emphasized that such capabilities would undermine Indian defense. I emphasize that any capability that reduces the power projection gap between India and other major powers of the world is beneficial for us. We would rather have a capability than depend on someone' good wishes and platitudes, that is IF we decide to have it.

3) You have said you BELIEVE that India is being supplied with dual use technologies by US. You know to put it mildly I believe that Julia Roberts is my girlfriend! When most of our science and tech institutions are on restricted entities list you are telling us that US is supplying India with real "stuff". Please provide concrete evidence behind your beliefs.

4) It is tough to make Indian a proxy country and least of all to counter one country. China angle is just a strawman to reduce India to South Asia bunkum.

Finally our government and strategic community will do what they have to do! And whatever they do we shall support them to the hilt.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Jun 2010 09:22

to preempt a big flame war, STAY CIVIL.