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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010 11:18 
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super duper news. where is the emoticon for lungi dance when u need one. :eek: :D

expect early hiccups but process should smooth out in the long run.

Prem Kumar wrote:
Fantastic news!! Its also heartening to see a move to promote competition between BEL and BDL (even though they are both DPSUs). In line with the latest MOD policy on defence production.


<OT>
I personally don't support privatization of defense sector as that will permanently place defense industry in India. In the long run it will require fuel to sustain in the form of war economy (like US). If there is no war or conflicts these industries will starve with billions in losses and thousands of job losses.

But in case of DPSU GOI you can wrap up whenever they want, with no ifs and buts or thinking about profit N loss equations. DPSU can keep running even if they are in loss state with no worries of job losses (thanks to poor Indians tax payers money :wink: ) as they have been running for years now.

May be am too senti after reading this news :D
</OT>


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010 11:33 
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Any idea how many sqaudrons come to the Army with this order?


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010 11:36 
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Aditya_V wrote:
Any idea how many sqaudrons come to the Army with this order?


Aditya,

You bet me to the question....

How much does each Army/Airforce Akash squadron cost ? Is the number of squadrons ordered open source information ?

Could BEL and BDL both manufacturing this might also imply that India for once is preparing for mass induction of a home grown weapon system ?


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010 11:48 
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Aditya_V wrote:
Any idea how many sqaudrons come to the Army with this order?


Great news, IAF was to get around 1000 missiles and 8 squadrons for Rs. 5500-6500 crore, I think that the army order should give it around 2000-2500 missiles


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010 19:34 
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HHM (Indic version of AoA) :twisted:

Finally Indian Armed forces are acquiring Indic weapons in Quantity. A total of 2500-3000 akash missiles covering Indian skies.

We need a couple more such orders to ensure at least 3 layers of air-defense in our borders before anything can reach key population/economic centers.


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010 19:39 
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Quote:
The 2.55-tonne BrahMos supersonic anti-ship missile has been modified, shedding 500 kg and getting a new ignition engine to fire the missile at high altitudes.


Question to gurus!

What will be impact of reduced weight (500Kg) and high-altitude on the range of AkashaBrahmos?


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010 21:04 
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Quote:
DAC had earlier cleared an Akash order worth Rs 6,500 for the Indian Air Force (IAF), with Bangalore-based Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) as its system integrator.


Wow that's cheap I'm ordering one too :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010 22:37 
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Juggi G wrote:


Are these kits Indian designed ones or the ones that we got through TOT from raytheon.


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010 22:41 
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Did you read the accompanying news report?


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010 22:41 
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rajsunder wrote:
Juggi G wrote:

Are these kits Indian designed ones or the ones that we got through TOT from raytheon.


What part of this sentence from above link was incomprehensible to you
Quote:
The Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) has successfully designed, developed & carried out the user trials of laser guided bomb kits at Pokhran with the participation of the IAF.


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010 23:26 
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rajsunder wrote:
Are these kits Indian designed ones or the ones that we got through TOT from raytheon.

please feel free to educate me about 'the ones we got through TOT from raytheon.'


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010 23:27 
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This Akash situation is rather confusing here.

IAF has placed a definate order for 2 squadrons and it Will order another 4 ( or 6) squadrons soon

What does the figure for 12,800 crore mean in context of the army order.


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010 23:56 
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^^ Gentelmen, IAF has 70 Radars (rajendra) being acuqistioned for Akash SAM for RS 2,800 Cr Being that it is a higher quantity the discount is applied and each radar cost about RS 40 CR......

Indian Army has ordered 30 radars for which they are paying RS 1,500 Cr. This works out to about Rs 50 cr PER radar.
RS (2800 + 1500 = 4,300 CR) for Radars ALONE

Now the additional costs involved in getting the missiles, integrating c2centers and support will obviously add on to the rest...
All in All a good deal as long as they take some of this profit money, and invest it in AKASH 2 (which by recenet news report is going to happen) and as long as the production agency doesn't FAKAP because of POOR workmanship!!!!


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 00:54 
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Rahul M wrote:
rajsunder wrote:
Are these kits Indian designed ones or the ones that we got through TOT from raytheon.

please feel free to educate me about 'the ones we got through TOT from raytheon.'

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories13.htm

this is where i got the info that India was set to get this technology from Raytheon.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 01:08 
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it was clearly a testing the waters type of article that doesn't even talk of any concrete proposal, how can you conclude that we got TOT from raytheon based on just this report ? there are hundreds of such proposals floating around, only a handful ever see the light of day.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 01:15 
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Rahul M wrote:
it was clearly a testing the waters type of article that doesn't even talk of any concrete proposal, how can you conclude that we got TOT from raytheon based on just this report ? there are hundreds of such proposals floating around, only a handful ever see the light of day.

Even i had my doubts about the article, and that is the reason why i asked the knowledgeable members if they knew whether the technology was a Indian built or the one that we got from Transfer of technology.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 01:19 
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We just have to establish a difference between Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) to get to the bottom of this Paveway II ToT. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 01:42 
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One thing from the picture posted by ChackoJoseph, there is no conduit to the rear fins and they are fixed not movable like the US ones. So this is not a Paveway copy.

The Indian solution is to add rear fins for center of pressure stability and perform the pitch and yaw control through the forward fins. And these fins rotate and do not extend. Most likely a worm drive of the fins.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 02:18 
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The conduit in question is not visible in this picture though.May be a different model/version i.e. Paveway-III or IV have that.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... b.jpg.html


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 09:25 
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I think that Indian LGB has a telescoping fin and the pointy edge of the fin/s pops out of the lower half after being dropped.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 10:17 
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Akash orders means something like US$ 5 Billion order in total for various akash missile systems which would be around 3000 missiles, 100 CAR radar, 100 Rajendra radar, 30 WLRRajendra derviative Radar, 1000 Tatra trucks with cranes, 300 genset etc. This is the biggest ever order for any indigenous system by Services. This order suggests that there might be "delay" or "cost" or "technology transfer" problems in Barak-2 or a combination of all three issues. As per open source news Barak-2 is supposed to cost around US$ 2.2 Billion for 432 missiles which would mean that it is around 5 times more costly compared to Akash systems even though it is perhaps 2 generations ahead.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 10:58 
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Barak-2 and Akash SAM are different system , the former is a MR/LR system ( ~ 70 - 150 km ) while the latter is in SHORAD-ER category ( ~ 25 km )


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 11:46 
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Self Deleted


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 16:07 
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Akash II

Quote:
The missile will have an intercept range of 30-35 km, or a little over 10-km more than the Mk-I version. Apart from extending range, the Mk-II project mandate will be to increase accuracy of the missile's guidance system and the fire control system, push up the missile's performance, agility, speed, efficiency and accuracy. This will involve tweaking of almost all major systems, including the missile itself, signal processors etc.


Within 2 yrs and no additional budget :eek:


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 16:19 
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Will they include a seeker in the Missile in Akash-MK-II, why do they still need the 55KG warhead, thats seems pretty large when compared to other SAM's standards.

With the better use of Chemicals can't they reduce the weight for the warhead and thereby increase range.

Anyway cheers to the Akash' team


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 21:00 
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^ I think that 55Kg limit is for nukes :twisted:


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 21:18 
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Aditya_V wrote:
Will they include a seeker in the Missile in Akash-MK-II, why do they still need the 55KG warhead, thats seems pretty large when compared to other SAM's standards.


They could add a seeker ( ARH/IIR ) and make the missile autonomous , the disadvantage will be the cost of the missile will go up significantly , the present Command Guidance mode affords a cheaper and mass produced missile although it depends on Rajendra FCR from start to end game engagement.

I think it would be far more cost-effective if DRDO can increase the capability of Rajendra to allow it to track more targets and guide more missile and incrementally improve the range of the missile to ~ 35 km , that would be the only way they can quickly get Akash Mk2 going in 2 years time frame.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 21:32 
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I think a rotating 2 faced rajendra that can track 360' and guide 16 missiles instead of fixed face 90' and 4 missiles at present will add lot
more redundancy to the whole battery in maintaining 360' coverage.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 21:51 
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Akash Mk-2 will become Akash EX (Extended Range Mk-II)
http://idrw.org/?p=1983

Initial work on Akash MK-2 has begun ,and the new missiles system will be fielded within next two years by DRDO , earlier plans was to have Akash mk-2 with range up to 50 to 60km but those plans have been curtailed to bring in only extended range Akash with marginal increase in range of 10 to 15 km from its current range of 20 to25 km .
This probably has been done to avoid two different long range missiles in Army and Air force arsenal , DRDO and IAI of Israel have already developed Barak-II (Barak 8 with range of 70km for navy and work on land based version will also be developed soon ,so its logical to work on Barak-II which will be long range interceptor missile for all three forces while Akash MK-1 and MK-2 will be Medium range surface to air interceptor missile for both army and air force .
Barak-2 has been recently been tested in Tel Aviv successfully and further testing will be held in India later this year .
While DRDO will be working with French for the short range Low Level Quick Reaction Missile (LLQRM) know has MAITRI , which will have technology developed for Trishul LLQRM TDP (technology Demonstrator Project) and will have range of 8 to 15km and will be used by all three defence forces of India.
DRDO will also be developing more advance version of the Rajendra BSR (Battery Surveillance Radar) which is PESA radar, while Akash Mk-2 will have a Rajendra derivative AESA radar to perform the same role, AESA radar will give it better tracking, and engagement functions. Work on AESA variant has begun and almost nearing completion.
DRDO expects to increase the range of Akash by using using better composite booster with lengthened booster section to achieve the desired range.
This will be the Roles of Surface to Air missile in Indian Armed Force
MAITRI (LLQRM) 8-15 km Quick reaction short range Air to Surface missile
Akash MK-1 /MK-2 (MR-SAM) 20-25 /35 km Medium range Air to Surface missile
Barak-2 ( LRSAM) 70km Long Range Air to Surface missile
While all three missile systems will have different roles in Indian Armed force and will be inducted by all three forces ,only Akash MK-1/2 will not see service in Indian Navy .


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 21:53 
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Austin wrote:
Barak-2 and Akash SAM are different system , the former is a MR/LR system ( ~ 70 - 150 km ) while the latter is in SHORAD-ER category ( ~ 25 km )


Small nitpick Austin: Barak-2 is 70 km range. There is no confirmation that there is a 150 km missile in the works. There have been odd gossips here & there but no official word from DRDO. Also the term MR & LR seems to be used interchange'ably in many DDM reports. Barak-2 is an MR-SAM IMO, not an LR-SAM.

Agreed that Akash is an SRSAM. I just want to make sure that at least within BRF, we use an agreed-upon terminology.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 21:55 
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Yes they can do that as well to achieve large target tracking/guidance and/or improve the present Raj via better signal processor,software to track/guide many targets.

The USP of Akash is its a cost effective missile system that can be mass produced and mass deployed with mobility to deal with cheap cruise missile ,smart weapon and aircraft threats

Add Autonomous guidance to the missile it becomes expensive , make Rajendra AESA from present PESA it becomes expensive and looses it original goal.

If they can improve the accuracy of Rajendra FCR and consequently increase the kill probability of single missile from the present ~ 86 % to above ~ 95 % then it would mean they would need less number of missile per target for high Pk , that itself would give Akash far greater track/kill capability.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2010 22:16 
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From Shiv Arror's blog :

EXCLUSIVE: Akash Mk-II SAM To Fly In Two Years

Quote:
...The Akash Mk-II will be a longer-range, faster and more accurate SAM. Ok, now here's the low-down on the Akash Mk-II. The missile will have an intercept range of 30-35 km, or a little over 10-km more than the Mk-I version. Apart from extending range, the Mk-II project mandate will be to increase accuracy of the missile's guidance system and the fire control system, push up the missile's performance, agility, speed, efficiency and accuracy. This will involve tweaking of almost all major systems, including the missile itself, signal processors etc.

Project Akash-II has set itself a deadline of 18 months to begin simulated trials, following which it will begin a routine of development test-firings. While Mk-I cost DRDO Rs 1,000-crore to complete, the Mk-II project has taken a decision not to ask for funds unless it absolutely needs them. An interim feasibility study conducted by the laboratories concerned has shown that scientists are confident of getting the first prototype up and ready on a modest tech-dem budget extended to all follow-on programmes.
...


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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2010 07:28 
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this has got to be one of the biggest SAM orders in the history of SAMs.


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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2010 13:43 
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Quote:
While DRDO will be working with French for the short range Low Level Quick Reaction Missile (LLQRM) know has MAITRI , which will have technology developed for Trishul LLQRM TDP (technology Demonstrator Project) and will have range of 8 to 15km and will be used by all three defence forces of India.

Goddamn it... Is the MAITRI alive or dead?

One day, we have it as scrapped and the other day, we hear it equipping all three forces!!!!


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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2010 20:52 
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Aditya_V wrote:
Will they include a seeker in the Missile in Akash-MK-II,


Though there is provision, DRDO made it clear that sporting of any seeker in future versions of Akash solely rests on the requirement from the User. If the User said yes, then they would we working on the seeker for the Akash. Otherwise, no.


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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2010 02:43 
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Nag hits a moving target in 3.2 seconds
Quote:

Test conducted by missile scientists from DRDL

Missile has top-attack capability to defeat armour of modern-day tanks

HYDERABAD: Anti-tank missile Nag on Sunday was successfully test-fired from the Army's Field Firing Range at Shamirpet, near here. This time it hit a moving object. Last Sunday (June 6), it destroyed a stationary target and proved its capability of destroying a target at a close range of 500 metres in three seconds.

This Sunday, Nag smashed the moving target in 3.2 seconds after its launch at 10.30 a.m., a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) official told TheHindu.

The test-firing was conducted by missile scientists from the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) after the Army requested for a close range launch on a moving target. The missile punched a hole as it pierced through the target, which was specially developed by Hyderabad-based Delta Technologies in collaboration with DRDL.

Director of Research Centre Imarat (RCI), S.K. Ray, RCI Associate Director S.K. Chaudhuri, Director of Missile Systems Quality Assurance Agency Commodore S. Patel and other DRDO officials were present.

With the land version of the missile already proving a maximum range of four km in the user trials held in the last two years in Rajasthan, the official said Nag had a higher lock-on before launch (LOBL) range compared to contemporary third generation anti-tank missiles. As the missile is expected to be cleared for induction by the Army after the final validation trials next month, the pre-production process was on at Bharat Dynamics Limited here.

Equipped with an active Imaging Infra-red (IIR) seeker to make it highly accurate, the missile has top-attack capability to defeat the armour of modern-day tanks. The missile carries a highly potent HEAT (high explosive anti-tank) warhead and could be launched during both day and night.

The official said the first flight-test of air-borne version of Nag, called HELINA, was expected to be conducted by the year-end. Having lock-on after launch capability, the air-borne variant would be deployed on Advanced Light Helicopters.


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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2010 06:22 
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any news on man pad version ?


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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2010 06:57 
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If Helina has LOAL capaility then there must be a way where Helina and the Operator , the way it would work is it will be in two way communication and once the target is identified from helina seeker by the operator it would simply designate and helina will go in a F&F mode even if the target is moving it will hit it , LOAL is effective against hidden target plus it allows the operator to be in loop for some time.

I do not know why they mention Active IIR seeker in the report it should be passive IIR seeker.


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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2010 09:15 
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does LOAL mean the heli can fire from behind a hill blindly in general direction of enemy and missile will target the first available thing that matches its image library?


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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2010 09:26 
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Singha wrote:
does LOAL mean the heli can fire from behind a hill blindly in general direction of enemy and missile will target the first available thing that matches its image library?


The missile will be fired in the general direction of the target ( beyond operators view ) but the operator will choose the target from Nag IIR sensor in realtime and if he locks at a target/bunker/tank , Nag will autonomously hit the target without operator intervention in F&F mode. Although the LOAL Nag still retains the LOBL capability for LOS target.


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