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PostPosted: 12 May 2010 22:10 
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Sanku wrote:
Thomas_S wrote:
I think you are saying this because Arjun is obviously the better system and there is no more discussion required on that :) ....i agree with you on this.


There was never any doubt that tank to tank Arjun would be a better machine, the specs made sure of that.

The only issue had been in translating the specs into reality, it took longer than we hoped for (for known and understood reasons)

-------------------

This does not mean that T 90 is not a good tank btw. It is a very good and a very potent tank especially in the Indian context.

T 90 does not have be bad mouthed to say Arjun is better. T 90 is very good, Arjun is even better. :D




Well the 'better' one got 124 orders and the other one got 1600 orders.....what an irony..... :roll:


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PostPosted: 12 May 2010 22:22 
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Thomas_S wrote:
Sanku wrote:

There was never any doubt that tank to tank Arjun would be a better machine, the specs made sure of that.

The only issue had been in translating the specs into reality, it took longer than we hoped for (for known and understood reasons)

-------------------

This does not mean that T 90 is not a good tank btw. It is a very good and a very potent tank especially in the Indian context.

T 90 does not have be bad mouthed to say Arjun is better. T 90 is very good, Arjun is even better. :D


Well the 'better' one got 124 orders and the other one got 1600 orders.....what an irony..... :roll:


Not at all, aren't you missing this very obvious part of the answer?

Quote:
The only issue had been in translating the specs into reality, it took longer than we hoped for (for known and understood reasons)


The specs have been realized only now, and as per chaiwalla reports, GoI (not IA) is discussing on the way ahead (note it has time to discuss because Avadi is still making the old order)

So it will happen. For sure.


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PostPosted: 12 May 2010 22:23 
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Austin wrote:
You said it Sanku . Kudos for bringing facts out consistently .......Hats off to you 8)


Thanks Austin, I really appreciate it.


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PostPosted: 12 May 2010 22:35 
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Sorry to butt in in the middle....was there any accident 2-3 months ago inside the Arjun tank during the tests in Mahajan range, Rajasthan? heard that the round blew up inside the turret killing 2 tank crew....this chennai guy from army(co passenger in train) wasn't sure if it was the Gun's problem or the round's(he also wasn't sure if it was HESH or Armour Piercing one)...I couldn't believe him :shock: ...he ended up saying..tank is good but quality is lacking....

Venkat


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 00:07 
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Sanku wrote:

2) This simple fact may cause you terrible pain, but the entire world including the Uber tank makes, Germans have seen that for tanks a smooth bore is better for APFSDS and HEAT and missiles. Sorry thats how it is, thats not theory, the fact that 9000 Abhrams + 1000 Leos + 10000 Ts are all smooth bore is not because some read in a book that it is theoretically advantageous.



Sir capability to fire Hesh round was a requirement of the end user. Can a smooth bore fire a hesh round? I think not.
So it does not matter even if there are one billion smooth bores out there. Those did not have this specific requirement which was valid in the indian context. So we went for a rifled gun which anyways is a better one than the current T-90's smooth bore.
Is this so difficult to understand?


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 00:16 
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Sanku wrote:
Austin wrote:
You said it Sanku . Kudos for bringing facts out consistently .......Hats off to you 8)


Thanks Austin, I really appreciate it.


The Tag Team champions..... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 00:19 
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Sanku wrote:

4) Let me also remind you a simple thing, FCS+autoloader+Gun+ammo ARE different components. Fine there will be system integration effort, but hey tomorrow Arjun May anyway have a different FCS, then wont there be changes?


Well at least we need not have to ask anyones help/permission to modify Arjuns FCS in future.
The inability to fire indian manufactured ammo from T-90 was posted here before i think....they didnt share the FCS code.
How long did we had to go after them for the gun barrel technology....
Will any of the above problem have happend with arjun ?


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 00:23 
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Quote:

The specs have been realized only now, and as per chaiwalla reports, GoI (not IA) is discussing on the way ahead (note it has time to discuss because Avadi is still making the old order)

So it will happen. For sure.


Oh you mean the specs has been realized in 2010 or was it in december 2009?
Lets all keep discussing...at the same time keep importing the tin cans.... :D


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 00:35 
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Sanku wrote:


<SNIP>

This does not mean that T 90 is not a good tank btw. It is a very good and a very potent tank especially in the Indian context.

T 90 does not have be bad mouthed to say Arjun is better. T 90 is very good, Arjun is even better. :D


So good, in fact, that the TI Conks off in high temprature environment and engine actually produces lesser than the "brochure" claims - heat or no heat.......and needs a modified auto-loader to fire a some what western comparable APFSDS from Russian stable...requires "enivormental control system" to allow it to use it's TI.......and it's engine siezed in the trials.... :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 03:57 
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Venkarl wrote:
Sorry to butt in in the middle....was there any accident 2-3 months ago inside the Arjun tank during the tests in Mahajan range, Rajasthan? heard that the round blew up inside the turret killing 2 tank crew....this chennai guy from army(co passenger in train) wasn't sure if it was the Gun's problem or the round's(he also wasn't sure if it was HESH or Armour Piercing one)...I couldn't believe him :shock: ...he ended up saying..tank is good but quality is lacking....

Venkat

patent BS, had it happened we would have heard it by now. the blowing up incidents that killed crew happened in the T-72 and that was at least a couple of years back.
the accident he refers to is this viewtopic.php?p=853375#p853375

the said gent has badly mixed up his tanks.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 08:24 
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Rahul M wrote:
patent BS, had it happened we would have heard it by now.


It would have been more deafening that Hiroshima and Nagasaki put together.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 08:31 
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Sanku wrote:
Austin wrote:
You said it Sanku . Kudos for bringing facts out consistently .......Hats off to you 8)

Thanks Austin, I really appreciate it.


Frankly you guys should get a room.
This public displays of affection is becoming embarrassing.... :mrgreen:

~Ashish.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 11:31 
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Venkarl wrote:
Sorry to butt in in the middle....was there any accident 2-3 months ago inside the Arjun tank during the tests in Mahajan range, Rajasthan? heard that the round blew up inside the turret killing 2 tank crew....this chennai guy from army(co passenger in train) wasn't sure if it was the Gun's problem or the round's(he also wasn't sure if it was HESH or Armour Piercing one)...I couldn't believe him :shock: ...he ended up saying..tank is good but quality is lacking....

Venkat


bro,
if that had happened with Arjun it would be in all the newspapers, magazines, tv news, blogs, forums...., and many respected people here would have raised that point for defending their favorite toy :D :rotfl:


Quote:
The specs have been realized only now, and as per chaiwalla reports, GoI (not IA) is discussing on the way ahead (note it has time to discuss because Avadi is still making the old order)
So it will happen. For sure.


Why don't they make new specs for tin cans?
avadi is still making old order too :D
i hope they don't make specs just to kill Arjun project once for all and forever.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 12:49 
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isnt it because T-72 was originally called Arjun and the name Ajeya being a later addition?

Is it possible that ground level folks in IA still think T-72 is the Arjun?


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 13:12 
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Rahul and Sameer.....I couldn't believe what he said...when he said that..it hurt me bad and spoke to him in defense of Arjun...was curious if BRF was aware of it..I don't login much these days so thought I missed it...apologies to you Sirs.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 13:58 
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Sorry folks, broke up the "IA bad, T 90 bad rah rah rah...." and repeat party here did I? With facts and data?

:lol:

Thomas_S dear; you are mixing up issues.

1) Arjun readiness, only in 2008-2009 time frame. Shown the readiness only now that too according to Chaiwalla reports. Official word awaited. The last order still not completed.
2) Gun ToT issue, it took one year, between 2007-2008, part of negotiations.
3) Sure we can change the FCS why not, and thats why we should keep changing things to ensure evolution, why not.
4) HESH vs disadvantages of Rifled gun trade off? -- Personally I think 100% of all modern tanks (Arjun are 50 of 20000 modern tanks) to me is a pretty clear indication of the trade off. Sure IA is different. But not THAT different. IA should seriously look at whether then need the HESH round w.r.t. Arjun.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 15:18 
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ARJUN MKII SANCTIONED

Finally, Govt Orders Full Revamp Of DRDO, Formally Sanctions Mark-II Versions Of MBT Arjun & Akash SAM

Quote:
Significantly, the decisions also include continuation of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for design and development of combat aircraft, continuation of the Kaveri aero-engine programme, development of MBT Arjun Mk-II and Akash Mk-II by DRDO and selection of industry partners by DRDO through a transparent process by evolving a suitable mechanism.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 15:26 
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Viv S wrote:
ARJUN MKII SANCTIONED


There are times when the lack of the lungi dance icon is sorely missed.

Viv S, bless you, old egg!!


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 16:02 
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Viv S wrote:
ARJUN MKII SANCTIONED

Finally, Govt Orders Full Revamp Of DRDO, Formally Sanctions Mark-II Versions Of MBT Arjun & Akash SAM

Quote:
Significantly, the decisions also include continuation of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for design and development of combat aircraft, continuation of the Kaveri aero-engine programme, development of MBT Arjun Mk-II and Akash Mk-II by DRDO and selection of industry partners by DRDO through a transparent process by evolving a suitable mechanism.


All Izzz Well !!


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PostPosted: 13 May 2010 16:08 
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From The Hindu,on the same issue of Arjun Mk II
Quote:
The government has also given its nod to development of second generation of main battle tank ‘Arjun’ and ‘Akash’ surface-to-air missile by DRDO.

With Arjun’s performance in the comparative trials with Russian T-90 tanks coming in for praise and it proving itself to be a superior tank, the decision to go in for a second generation Arjun Mk-II tanks is only an indication that the Army would be inducting more of these tanks in the future.

Already, the Army has placed orders for 124 Arjun tanks of which about 50 tanks were finally handed over to it last year to form a regiment.


The IA must be involved in Mk II development at every stage so that we don't go through the same pain all over again.


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