LCA News and Discussions

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merlin
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by merlin »

Sidharth wrote:Why are we dhoti bearers so hard on ourselves ?
Probably comes from a massive inferiority complex.
geeth
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by geeth »

Saw the display of a trainer in R Day parade. I could not see to full parade. Did the show any flying?
I saw the Republic Day Parade Yesterday..I felt India was trying to be apologetic with its military might, lest it hurt feelings across borders! Few tanks, Brahmos, Pinaka, LCA and some Nautangi..thats all. Why have it at all?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

cost containment too - shipping all the gear to delhi, with proper people and security cannot be cheap. we have shown stuff like agni in the past, not much need to flaunt it again like a soviet parade with 1000s of trucks rumbling across red square :) even replica models are not cheap.

what counts is real production, QA and deployment in numbers and no effort must be spared there.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by krishnan »

All started in APJ time i think, cut down the parade to hr or less.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by merlin »

geeth wrote:
Saw the display of a trainer in R Day parade. I could not see to full parade. Did the show any flying?
I saw the Republic Day Parade Yesterday..I felt India was trying to be apologetic with its military might, lest it hurt feelings across borders! Few tanks, Brahmos, Pinaka, LCA and some Nautangi..thats all. Why have it at all?
Yes, I felt it too. Wasn't fun for a hardware jingo.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by geeth »

cost containment too - shipping all the gear to delhi, with proper people and security cannot be cheap.
But when the whole idea is to showcase the Military MIGHT, where is the question of cost? Either have it in full swing particularly when you have a foreign head of state as the chief guest, or don't show anything..not something in-between.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by jai »

Whine start ..

Given that this is the only civil - military parade in this country that showcases not just our wonderful armed forces but also the wide cultural diversity of our country, I think it should be expanded with more armament on display, more regimental marches, more floats and dances from each state and ministry ...all leading to a massive colourful concert at JLN Stadium - music and dances from each state, contemporary classical and popular musicians etc etc. This is one occasion when the average abdul starts to feel jingoistic and appreciate India for its diversity - need more and more jingoism in India.

We are happy to put show for CG for visiting atheletes but not for our own citizens even on the Republic day.

Its sad to see the parade ending so quickly. The Media - TV has nothing else to report / show in the name of celebrating our republic day except reruns of "Lakshya" and "Border".....15th August in any case becomes Political due to the speeches....the republic day at least should be celebrated in all possible glory, otherwise it will fast loose its meaning.

whine end.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

yeah yeah...but before demanding parades we should demand DAVP be brought out of comatose state , do some nice meaningful military videos and mandate that all multiplexes and cinema halls show these as fillers before the show starts. that would have a more wider and permanent impact that just a yearly parade watched by a small section of TV viewers.
before every soft kid watches transformers3, I want him/her to see visibly indian guys in balaclava masks fast roping down from Dhruvs with tavors and shipons to do a room by room clearing or arjuns doing on-the-move gunnery practice at night etc.....or a line of Pinakas at dusk blasting dozens of rockets into the night....that will take the sheen off the "chuck norris > yindu coward paradigm" until bollywood catches up.
vishnu.nv
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vishnu.nv »

+1 to that singha sir...

something more better will be bollywood movie like transformers where a couple of Bramos hitting Decepticons.....
Rambhas fighting Starscream with their TVC ..... etc.

Wonder weather US Military industry complex sponsors Michel Bay!!!!!

Sorry for daydreaming guys!!!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Rahul M »

krishnan wrote:All started in APJ time i think, cut down the parade to hr or less.
it started during op parakram since mil folks were busy with the real thing. nothing to do with APJ himself.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

We need mission statement change for this to happen. It is all pisskology. They go after "God bless America", and ending up more for searching the truth. We go after "Satyameva Jayate", and end up pleading to be blessed by God.

Clutter happens when mission statements merge with firangi invasions. Same was the stagnation of in-vedics.. and so would be our samskriti. Call it a war, then things will shape up slowly
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by sumshyam »

SaiK wrote:Call it a war, then things will shape up slowly
Too aggressive, will not be that...anyhow may be a much efficient stance that can be..!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Aggressiveness depends on how you wage it. :wink:
Avik
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Avik »

it started during op parakram since mil folks were busy with the real thing.
In addition, two more factors contruibuted to the parade being curtailed:

1) Incessant complaints by dilli-billis about how their precious morning commute was a huge hassle due to the long parade, and the attendant road blocks etc, extending for almost 2-3 weeks. Till last year, the page 2 in HT and page 3 in ToI was to be seen to be believed. Bunch of morons kept moaning about long commutes and the like...

2) The second reason is, once having foreign Presis/PMs as Chief Guests became de rigeur at the parade, some of the foreign missions "requested" that the parade be shortened since it was felt to be too long!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Drishyaman »

Any news when we will have the Experimental LSP-6, guess with the Kaveri engine ?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Gurneesh »

merlin wrote:
geeth wrote: I saw the Republic Day Parade Yesterday..I felt India was trying to be apologetic with its military might, lest it hurt feelings across borders! Few tanks, Brahmos, Pinaka, LCA and some Nautangi..thats all. Why have it at all?
Yes, I felt it too. Wasn't fun for a hardware jingo.
OT: It could have been made short to spare the president from standing for long periods of time. I don't know about recent years, but in early to mid 2000's the parades had a lot of weapons and systems.
B_Ambuj wrote:Any news when we will have the Experimental LSP-6, guess with the Kaveri engine ?
LSP 6 will fly (when it flies) most probably with 404 as it has been earmarked for the crucial high alpha and g tests. After those it could be used for Kaveri testing (but IIRC Kaveri itself is expected to be ready for that towards the end of this year only).
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

LSP 6 will fly (when it flies)
I am very tired of this "it will fly when it flies", yeah yeah i know the difficulties but it would be nice to see lsp6/7/8 flying by March-April(which i think was what PS promised last)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

oh please, tellis strongly recommends JSF rather LCA. check his numbers for his vision IAF 2030
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

Lalmullah strongly recommends a mixed force of lalchix and white ghagra chix
there, that should make the newspaper headlines, just like ashleybhai
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

The JSF is in such trouble (AWST reports) that the US is armtwisting its allies and India into buying more F-16s/F-18SHs instead until the JSF finally arrives.Oz has bought 40+ SHs for the moment."Tell-us" is simply touting US wares.The cost of the JSF after the British/RN's savage budget cuts has dumped the STOVL version into te sea with barely a handful (14?) JSFs on order! The cost of one JSF has now been estimated as being not less than $130 million! For that price,one would get three MIG-35s or Gripens and 4-5 LCAs instead! Moreover,a single-engined JSF is more at risk in carrier ops at sea than a twin-engined fighter.With the late arrival of the JSF, not on the horizon yet ,with more US allies getting disillusioned about buying it,the US is desperate for a new sucker,so presto!......here comes India again,after saving Boeing's bacon with 10+6 C-17s already sold to it!

Tell-us is telling us to buy Tejas because he knows and we know how much futher the work on MK-2 has to be done and just how limited prodution will be by 2020.The very attractive "most bang for the buck Gripen" poses the greatest threat to the US in the emerging markets with S.Arica,Thailand,Romania and others operating it or lusting ater it (Brazil).Therefore the war against the Gripen has ebgun by the US.Expect more mud to be thrown at it by "tell-alls" like Tell-us!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by jai »

Agree 100%. This is nothing more than lifafa journalism from folks getting desperate and frustrated after hearing the stories about the Euro canards getting ahead.

This also scares me, because these guys can go to any levels of "Saam, Daan, Dand, Bhed" to get business, and our greedy, cunning, self serving powerful elite of India are an ever-ready lot...
Last edited by jai on 28 Jan 2011 16:39, edited 1 time in total.
Lalmohan
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

in a $10B deal, one must expect atleast $500m-$800m to wash around and get soaked up
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by kmc_chacko »

it was expected to deliver a squadron by 2013 i donot know whether LSP are also included in that

1 sq means - 20 or 18 aircrafts ? little bit confusing
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Rahul M »

for single seater fighters, 16+2 type trainers is the usual strength. 2 additional single seaters per sqdn are allocated as attrition reserve but I'm not sure if these are held by the sqdn itself.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by kmc_chacko »

Rahul M wrote:for single seater fighters, 16+2 type trainers is the usual strength. 2 additional single seaters per sqdn are allocated as attrition reserve but I'm not sure if these are held by the sqdn itself.
thanks,
so roughly 20 per sq
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Jagan »

Attrition reserves are not held by the Squadron. So its 18. More often than not, there is always a shortage of the type trainer - so in real sense, a squadron would end up with 16+1 or even 15+1, even though its establishment on paper is 18
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Fani_A »

Lalmohan wrote:in a $10B deal, one must expect atleast $500m-$800m to wash around and get soaked up
well Radia tapes indicate that 15% cut is quite common...
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

sure, but size of deal sometimes imposes caps on %age deductions
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by nachiket »

The LCA order is 20 + 20. So that will make 4 squadrons with 18 aircraft each plus 4 attrition reserves. For the MRCA however there appear to be no attrition reserves. 7 squadrons, 18 aircraft per squadron makes 126 exactly.
Edit: Appears to be same for the MKI. Eventual numbers will be 270. That makes 15 squadrons exactly at 18 per squadron.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

I dont understand Ashley Tellis Locus standi in writing the report? He a US citizen and an ex-US official is writing an advice report for IAF to implement. How proper is that? And how proper of Indian officials to give him inputs? Are they retired or in office?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

C.Uday Bhaskar, Dan Blumenthal, Peter Garretson, Gregory Jones, Benjamin
Lambeth, M. Matheswaran, and Arun Prakash
from the pdf
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by neerajb »

Kartik wrote:
Singha wrote:looks like wake penetration clearance is a must for combat formation flying as also operating in vicinity of large commercial/transport a/c which can leave strong wakes. one of this wake from a 747 is claimed to have caused the A300 crash in brooklyn 2 mins later.
How important the wake penetration testing is can be fathomed by looking at a Gripen crash which occurred when the trailing Gripen entered into the wake of another Gripen during air combat training, and lost control and crashed.
Check @1:25, the mirage crossing the exhaust of the lead mirage involuantarily enters into a roll when the right wing catches the high speed jetwash. IMHO the roll is uncommanded. Indeed Tejas needs to clear those tests before formation/combat flying.

Link fixed :mrgreen:


Cheers....
Last edited by neerajb on 29 Jan 2011 16:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

^^^ Guys but i think i had seen a video of two white tds taking off in quick succession, if thats true, what more does wake penetration entail ?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vina »

basic question...how would they perform a wake penetration test? I mean the aircraft needs to be subjected to different "wake" profiles right? how would they create the "wake"?
By flying an aircraft in front of course! How else? And then test whether you can enter from right behind, from top to bottom, diagonally, bottom to up, enter while turning, different altitude, speeds etc!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vina »

Whatever we do with Snecma and DRDO, the design goals for the Kaveri to come out of the JV should be crystal clear, technology level wise, I think what we should aim for is this.

1) All blisk compressor stages.

2) TeT at around close to 2000k, an overall pressure ratio of 30:1 and a T:W ratio of 10:1

3) Contra rotating spools

4) Cutting edge HPT and LPT turbine materials with Thermal Barrier Coatings.

Some 4000 hrs of service life and a thrust growth potential of upto 125 KN, probably entering with around 100KN thrust.

If that happens, it will all have been worth it, including the K-9 learning experience and everything. We will end up having an engine that is among the best possible and comparable to anything anywhere in the world.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Drishyaman »

vina wrote:If that happens, it will all have been worth it, including the K-9 learning experience and everything. We will end up having an engine that is among the best possible and comparable to anything anywhere in the world.
This is perhaps what GTRE is after now.

Vina, I must say I am a big fan of yours. I like to read your posts and eagerly wait for that. :)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vcsekhar »

i was reading some of the messages posted about the gripen earlier this week about what a wonderful aircraft it was and how quickly the NG was developed and about the wake penetration test crash. After doing a bit of digging on uncle google, I came to a wikipedia page about the gripen crashes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidents_ ... _39_Gripen

Interestingly there have been several (5) crashes of the Gripen A/B/C/D till now, and after reading through them, I see that 4 of them are due to some aircraft problem and the fifth is due to inadequate training.

Interestingly two of the crashes are due to pilot induced oscillations (PIO) would this be classified as what the IAF would call "Pilot Error"? (does anyone here know), i was just wondering about all the marketing material talking about "care free handling", FBW will not allow the pilot to do anything that could damage the aircraft, etc etc....
What happened to the super duper FBW and computer controlled logic etc during these crashes?

Very interestingly, one of the crashes was due to an incorrectly placed ejection handle!!!, what happened to all the great Swedish ergonomic prowess?
Let us take all the marketing speak with a pinch of salt, what is to say that the NG is a perfect plane already and that there are no flaws waiting to be found.

Think about what would happen to the LCA if we have even one crash even at this stage (i hope that it does not ever happen). At the end of the day there is no use claiming that the electronics and computer control will not have any flaws because any system this complicated will have bugs and flaws that are hidden until something happens and a detailed investigation will find them.
These are fighter aircraft, they are built to the edge of existing (or known) technology, to the very edges of existing manufacturing technology and tolerances, so any such incident should not be the reason for great panic or alarm. They should be treated as an opportunity to find out what went wrong and what can be done to prevent it from happening again.

Anyways time to end my rant, "Shit happens to anyone and everyone, how they deal with it and what they learn from it, shows what they are made out of". I have to say that the LCA team has had a lot of shit happen to them and they have learned, adapted and come through with flying colours.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Gurneesh »

neerajb wrote: Check @1:25, the mirage crossing the exhaust of the lead mirage involuantarily enters into a roll when the right wing catches the high speed jetwash. IMHO the roll is uncommanded. Indeed Tejas needs to clear those tests before formation/combat flying.



Cheers....
I just see a blank grey spot where the video should be.... :-?

Please provide link..
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Austin »

vina wrote:Whatever we do with Snecma and DRDO, the design goals for the Kaveri to come out of the JV should be crystal clear, technology level wise, I think what we should aim for is this.
If you put the spec premium that high you can be assured that GTRE Kaveri will never achieve it in the next 15 years and it will be Kaveri redux , Snecma AFAIK does not have those kind of 10:1 rated engine tech and will never part with its tech even if they achieve those with some variant of M-88

A reasonable spec of GTRE-Snecma JV is to develop an engine with T/W ratio of 8-8.5:1 and a A/B thrust of 90-100 KN in the next 5 -8 years that is good enough to power the Tejas.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by neerajb »

@Gurneesh

Link fixed in the original post.

Cheers....
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