Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Locked
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

The power of secrecy: Inder Malhotra
Intelligence agencies must be made subject to parliamentary scrutiny

Astonishingly little attention has been paid to the Supreme Court's recent notice to the Union government to submit its views on a PIL before the bench, which demands the setting up of "a mechanism to ensure the accountability of this country's intelligence agencies". The Centre for Public Interest Litigation (CPIL), which has filed the petition, specifically wants "parliamentary oversight" of these agencies and "an audit of their funds by the Comptroller and Auditor General".

The government has been given ample time to respond. There is, therefore, a window of opportunity to see to it that what ought have happened long ago — making the tangled skein of intelligence agencies accountable to the people — takes place at least now. Sadly, despite the horrendous experience during the Emergency, the number of Indians worried about the state of the intelligence machine is woefully small. The public has to be made aware of the urgency of the problem.

Among the world's leading democracies, India has the dubious distinction of never making its intelligence network accountable to the public or even subject to parliamentary oversight. Consequently, these agencies tend to become a combination of a law unto themselves and meekly subservient to their political masters, who seldom hesitate to use or misuse them for political or partisan purposes. There has to be an end to this ugly and dangerous state of affairs, and that would require an effort that is nothing short of the campaign Aruna Roy and other activists conducted to secure the Right to Information Act. Specific directives to the powers that be from the apex court, as it hears the relevant PIL, would be invaluable.

Independent India inherited its intelligence machine, like almost everything else, from the British Raj. This became the Intelligence Bureau in 1947 and had the sole control of all sectors of intelligence, external and internal. Under the dynamic, if personalised, leadership of B. N. Mullik, who enjoyed Jawaharlal Nehru's full confidence and remained in the job almost through the Nehru era, the IB built itself up into a major power centre. It also had to share a large chunk of the blame for the debacle in the 1962 border war with China.

In 1968, Indira Gandhi decided to separate internal and external intelligence. Thus came into being the Research and Analysis Wing, better known by its acronym, RAW. Its founder director was the legendary spymaster R. N. Kao, earlier in charge of the IB's external operations, who later built up a great reputation. Soon enough, offshoots of RAW sprouted, and only a few years ago, the agency for technical intelligence, the National Technology Research Organisation (NTRO), was formed. There is one common feature in all these powerful entities, which came up from the late-19th century to the early-21st century: none of them has been set up under a law of Parliament. All of them draw their authority from executive orders.

In the aftermath of the 1962 disaster, when concerned citizens wanted intelligence agencies to be supervised credibly, the then home minister, G.L. Nanda, rebuked them. Affairs of agencies protecting national security "could not be discussed in the market place", he said. In the radically changed atmosphere after the Emergency, the Shah Commission, appointed by the Janata government, drew attention to the gross misuse of the intelligence agencies by the Emergency regime. The government then appointed a committee, headed by the outstanding civil servant who had also served as governor, L.P. Singh, to suggest reforms of the IB and the Central Bureau of Investigation. But by the time the committee came out with its report — recommending that the government spell out not only what the spying outfits were permitted to do but also what was "specifically prohibited" — the Janata was history and Indira Gandhi was back in power.

In January 2010, Vice-President Hamid Ansari became the first, and so far only, leader publicly to call for parliamentary scrutiny and public accountability of intelligence agencies to prevent their "misuse". He specifically recommended the formation of a standing committee of Parliament on the lines of the US Congressional committees, which have been functioning effectively since the end of the Vietnam War. A democratic society, he added, must ensure that the secret intelligence apparatus never becomes "a vehicle for conspiracy" or "a suppressor of (people's) liberties".

Soon thereafter, Manish Tiwari, now minister for information and broadcasting, then a Congress MP, took the welcome initiative of introducing a private member's bill to implement Ansari's wholesome suggestions. However, the bill lapsed and nobody has done anything since. Let not the opportunity provided by the PIL in the apex court be wasted.

The writer is a Delhi-based political commentator
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by svinayak »

In January 2010, Vice-President Hamid Ansari became the first, and so far only, leader publicly to call for parliamentary scrutiny and public accountability of intelligence agencies to prevent their "misuse". He specifically recommended the formation of a standing committee of Parliament on the lines of the US Congressional committees, which have been functioning effectively since the end of the Vietnam War.
We have to get out of the US mentality

India has terrorist and enemies right from independence. India is tryng to get back into its full independence and has too much big hurdle.

Indian elected govt has the repsonsibility to uphold the freedom of its citizens according to the constitution
shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7101
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by shyamd »

So you are saying that the intelligence should not be accountable to the MPs?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by ramana »

Not yet.

I want military types to take over intelligence as current Indian setup is now replete with political hacks leading to repeated failures. This is because they serve their politicial masters and not the country. All of the bad ones retire gracefully and write memoirs or op-ed pieces to shape the opinion. They are still serving their former masters!

In every country intelligence is a military or quasi-military setup with retired or serving servcies officers. Quite a few heads of US premier agencies were ex-military.


After all threats are neutralized we can have the intelligence services reporting to honorable MPs.
shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7101
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by shyamd »

Every country's intel service serve the political masters ultimately - see Iraq war. Every day we see controlled leaks that fit the political narrative in NYT, WaPo etc.

Militarisation will help to an extent - but one would argue there are mil walla's seconded already.

-------------------
Sanjeev Tripathi the current RAW head is expected to take over as NTRO chief.
pentaiah
BRFite
Posts: 1671
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by pentaiah »

Only caseswhich were solved and have nobearing waht so ever in the ongoing investigations.
Also the cases could be partially masked in detail and age till such time that no adverse impact on the current sources, actors, (including Sunjaa Dutt) etc.

At appropriate time what the MPs were briefed should in full public gallery of people and press. Not like LKg white paper on J&K only to diplomats of Foreign countries
Ankit Desai
BRFite
Posts: 634
Joined: 05 May 2006 21:28
Location: Gujarat

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Ankit Desai »

ramana wrote:Not yet.

I want military types to take over intelligence as current Indian setup is now replete with political hacks leading to repeated failures. This is because they serve their politicial masters and not the country. .......
On same point other view can be that above quoted lines make it ideal case to be accountable to MPs, isn't it ! If current intelligence agencies are serving political masters than committee of MPs (which constitutes by MPs from various political parties) can ask more questions about political use/interference of agencies and scandals like 2G in intelligence context can be scrutinized by them. Right now such interferences are going scot-free.

Once as you mentioned military types people will take over and agencies will be freed from political use than MPs accountability can be reduced.

-Ankit
KrishnaK
BRFite
Posts: 964
Joined: 29 Mar 2005 23:00

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by KrishnaK »

It is reasonable to expect that intelligence agencies be answerable to the elected representatives of the people. After all one of the two major parties will form the nucleus of the ruling coalition. However, only the Congress or the BJP usually handles sensitive affairs like intelligence (Chidambaram would be an exception ?). Can the parliamentary committee be limited to only those two parties. Or at least parties with major pan India ambitions rather than regional players. How do you prevent the likes of Mulayam Singhs/Mayawatis/Karunanidhis from using the knowledge of sensitive information to blackmail the ruling coalition ? While the thought of our own elected representatives being such lowlifes is frightening, it is also fact.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by ramana »

Right now the ruling combine blackmails their own supporters to ensure they support them!
And if Lok Sabha oversight is there it will on basis of the ruling party majority and can lead to same unaccountablity and misleading the public. And the opposition members in the oversight committee could be bought off with favors to get them elected.
Right now we know the agencies are accountable to the government in power. With current political situation even that will be gone.

I would rather not have RAW officers from IB as IB is politicised agency since Independence. Further it defeats the split in 1968 which was due to the multiple lapses of IB on external intelligence since 1962 to 1965. Having said that the RAW folks are quite undisciplined about accountability/use of funds and the excuse is to bring order the IB people need to be posted!!!
VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2982
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

India as a great power Know your own strength
UNLIKE many other Asian countries—and in stark contrast to neighbouring Pakistan—India has never been run by its generals. The upper ranks of the powerful civil service of the colonial Raj were largely Hindu, while Muslims were disproportionately represented in the army. On gaining independence the Indian political elite, which had a strong pacifist bent, was determined to keep the generals in their place. In this it has happily succeeded.

But there have been costs. One is that India exhibits a striking lack of what might be called a strategic culture. It has fought a number of limited wars—one with China, which it lost, and several with Pakistan, which it mostly won, if not always convincingly—and it faces a range of threats, including jihadist terrorism and a persistent Maoist insurgency. Yet its political class shows little sign of knowing or caring how the country’s military clout should be deployed.
:
:
:
:
Good read, read rest of the artical
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by svinayak »

But there have been costs. One is that India exhibits a striking lack of what might be called a strategic culture. It has fought a number of limited wars—one with China, which it lost, and several with Pakistan, which it mostly won, if not always convincingly—and it faces a range of threats,

India lacks a chief of the defence staff of the kind most countries have. The government, ever-suspicious of the armed forces, appears not to want a single point of military advice. Nor do the service chiefs, jealous of their own autonomy.

The absence of a strategic culture and the distrust between civilian-run ministries and the armed forces has undermined military effectiveness in another way—by contributing to a procurement system even more dysfunctional than those of other countries.


India’s search for the status appropriate to its ever-increasing economic muscle remains faltering and uncertain.

Instead of clear strategic thinking, India shuffles along, impeded by its caution and bureaucratic inertia. The symbol of these failings is India’s reluctance to reform a defence-industrial base that wastes huge amounts of money, supplies the armed forces with substandard kit and leaves the country dependent on foreigners for military modernisation.

Since independence India has got away with having a weak strategic culture. Its undersized military ambitions have kept it out of most scrapes and allowed it to concentrate on other things instead.

If India does not stop coddling its existing state-run military-industrial complex, he says, it will never be capable of supplying its armed forces with the modern equipment they require.

fearing that the Arjun, as well as being overweight, may be unreliable.
This looks more like a tabloid thrash with the kind of language used
member_20292
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2059
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by member_20292 »

economist article

seems like a dailymail type silly balderdash.
VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2982
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

India, China working in tandem to prevent Taliban surge
NEW DELHI: With the US withdrawal from Afghanistan looming large, neighbouring countries are hedging against bad outcomes in that part of the world. The jitteriness is palpable, with Afghanistan's neighbours all tying up with each other in different combinations as they scramble to contain what many fear a Taliban surge supported by Pakistan and extremism/terrorism spilling over its borders.

China is teaming up with Russia and Pakistan on a trilateral on Afghanistan, and the first meeting is scheduled in a few weeks. This comes weeks after India, Russia and China sat down in Moscow to craft another trilateral dialogue whereby all the three countries would exchange information and coordinate positions on Afghanistan's future. The new trialateral allows Pakistan and China reaffirm their traditional ties, including showing India that their commitment to each other remains unalloyed.

The Moscow meeting was the beginning of a bilateral track between China and India, a surprising and significant development, given that India and China are generally believed to be on opposing sides of Afghanistan's "Pakistan divide". A bilateral talks between India and China on Afghanistan raised eyebrows within the Indian system since the request came from the Chinese side.

But it showed for the first time, that China too was hedging its bets regarding its "lips-and-teeth" relationship with Pakistan. Pakistan's ties with the Taliban show no signs of abating, despite Islamabad's own travails with them. None of the peace talks with the Taliban are going anywhere because Pakistan's ISI retains a stranglehold on them. And, Pakistan seems to be in a minority that believes the Taliban should be part of the power structure in Kabul.

China's worries are centred on their concerns in the Xinjiang province and the threat of jihadi spillover from Afghanistan.


But also China, like India, wants to protect its considerable investments in Afghanistan. In May China's CNPC will be extracting oil from its wells in northern Afghanistan. This could be the beginning of a resource boom for Afghanistan.

India has theoretically invested in Afghanistan's Hajigak mines, but security concerns persist. An India-China bilateral dialogue could be the precursor of a joint approach to securing their investments in Afghanistan.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Philip »

Wonderful discovery by AKA,after so many years at the helm of Indian defence.He similarly forgot about Gen VKS's Tatra attempted bribe-for a whole year, until it became public knowledge.he has been an unmitigated disaster as DM,a man who will be remembered for the delay in years in decision-making and the multitude of scams right under his very nose.

Some of the world's most successful spies.However,the best ones are the ones who have never been discovered and of whom we may never know about until a century has passed!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/galle ... life-spies
Series: The 10 best ...
The 10 best real-life spies – in pictures

From Melita Norwood and Klaus Fuchs to Francis Walsingham and Harold 'Kim' Philby

1.Melita Norwood
1912–2005
She was the seemingly innocuous assistant to the director of one of Britain’s atomic research centres, who coolly passed the secrets of the atom bomb to Russia for 37 years, before finally being identified in 1999. Daughter of a Latvian-born father and a communist-sympathising mother, she became known in the press as “the spy who came in from the Co-Op” as a result of the shopping bags she was carrying when her true allegiance was exposed at the age of 87. Her initial response: “Oh dear. I thought I had got away with it.”


2.Fritz Joubert Duquesne
1877–1956
A native South African, Duquesne was disgusted by the actions of the British army during the Boer war, in particular Lord Kitchener’s scorched earth policy and the imprisonment of his mother and sister in concentration camps. After a stint as the personal hunter of Theodore Roosevelt while on safari in Africa, he became a German spy in 1914. Disguised as a science researcher, he planted time bombs on numerous British ships, faked his own death and later claimed he had been responsible for the sinking of the ship carrying Kitchener on his fatal trip to Russia in 1916.

3. Virginia Hall
1906–1982
A US-born volunteer with the Special Operations Executive during the second world war, Hall operated in occupied France. She co-ordinated the activities of the Resistance in Vichy working as a correspondent for the New York Post, and appeared on the Gestapo’s “most wanted” list as “the limping lady”. This referred to the fact that she had shot herself in the foot in 1932, causing her lower leg to be amputated and replaced with a prosthetic limb (named “Cuthbert”), in which she hid numerous documents Photograph: Courtesy of Jeff Bass

4.
10 best: Klaus Fuchs
Klaus Fuchs
1911–1988
A German nuclear physicist who came to England in 1933, Fuchs worked on the top-secret British atom bomb project, codenamed "Tube Alloys", and later on the American Manhattan Project. He was arrested and imprisoned in 1950 after it became clear that he was passing information to the USSR, motivated by anti-Nazi feelings and a complicated view of how best to achieve postwar equilibrium. According to reports, he was an extremely academic and gentle man; he once drew a diagram of the workings of a spin-washer on a prison laundry receipt to demonstrate its workings to his fellow prisoners Photograph: PA/PA

5.Belle Boyd
1844–1900
Born in Virginia, Maria Isabella “Belle” Boyd became a spy for the Confederates at the age of 17, after having been put under guard for shooting a drunken Union soldier who, according to her memoirs, insulted both her and her mother. “We ladies were obliged to go armed in order to protect ourselves as best we might from insult and outrage.” Charming and beautiful, she extracted secrets from the Unionist sentry charged with her imprisonment. “To him,” she wrote, “I am indebted for some very remarkable effusions, some withered flowers, and a great deal of important information.”

6. Francis Walsingham
c1532–1590
Move over, Thomas Cromwell; Walsingham was the ultimate Tudor spymaster. Principal secretary to Elizabeth I and a staunch Protestant, he made it his business to stamp out Catholicism by any means necessary. His record is formidable: he intercepted letters, employed professional forgers of seals and ordered the torture and execution of Mary, Queen of Scots and many poor old Catholic priests, along with numerous other suspected conspirators. If history weren’t always written by the victors, she’d have ended up as Bloody Queen Elizabeth

7.Sidney Reilly
1873–1925
Dubbed the “Ace of Spies” and made into a household name through the writings of his friend Robert Bruce Lockhart, Reilly was the prototype for Fleming’s James Bond. A known womaniser, many of the exploits he claims to have performed are unverifiable, but he is most famous for his involvement in a British-backed plot to overthrow Lenin’s Bolshevik government in 1918 with the help of the Latvian army charged with guarding the Kremlin. This plot earned him a death sentence in absentia, which was finally carried out when he returned to Soviet soil in 1925

8.Harold “Kim” Philby
1912–1988
Taking his nickname from the character in Rudyard Kipling’s picaresque novel, Philby came to inhabit his appellation. He became a communist at Cambridge during the early 1930s and is the most famous of the “Cambridge Five”. He rose to be head of the Soviet counterespionage section of the Secret Intelligence Service, was awarded an OBE and, for a while, his influence in the upper echelons of power was so staggering that Stalin refused to believe it was true. He defected to the Soviet Union in 1963 and remained there until his death

9.Oleg Gordievsky
1938–present
The only spy I have ever actually met, Gordievsky was the London resident for the KGB in the 1980s, during which time he was in contact with the British secret service. Disillusioned with Soviet politics after the Prague Spring, he was one of the highest-ranking KGB officers ever to work for western intelligence. After coming under suspicion as a result of information given to the KGB by Aldrich Ames, he was recalled to Moscow and interrogated. He escaped with the help of the British – smuggled out during his morning jog. Like Reilly, he was sentenced to death by the Russian authorities in absentia

10.
Ursula Kuczynski
1907–2000
A German Jewish communist, Kuczynski committed to the cause from an early age. In 1930, she moved to China, where she practised radio techniques, and subsequently lived in Switzerland and England, before fleeing to East Berlin in 1950 after the arrest of Klaus Fuchs, one of the spies she was running for the KGB. She later became a writer of children’s books. from www.cia.gov

PS:One can add personal favourites to the list!

I can add the Walker brothers who caused massive trouble for the US by spying for the Soviets.There is also no mention of Israeli spies,many of whom we know nothing at all.In contemporary times,they must probably be the most successful.
member_25399
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 67
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by member_25399 »

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/te ... 618709.ece

Newbie question - why don't they create a single entity and keep all the related stuff within its preview, instead of creating security directorate, CMS and everything else separately. At least will streamline things ?
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Philip »

"Fowl " play by the dastardly Pakis what?!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 74156.html
Dead bird found fitted with surveillance camera sparks fears of fowl play at India-Pakistan border.
Ed Frankl

Monday 15 April 2013

A falcon found dead in India near the country’s highly militarised border with Pakistan has sparked alarm after it was found to be fitted with a small surveillance camera.

The bird was found by Indian security forces near the ancient fort city of Jaisalmer in the desert state of Rajasthan, where Indian armed forces regularly conduct war games.

Early suspicions centred around covert spying by Pakistan on its fellow nuclear-armed neighbour, but the effort could be the work of Pakistani hunters, a security force official told AFP. “However, the possibility of it being an espionage attempt from Pakistan cannot be ruled out,” he said.
VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2982
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

How weakness buys strength
The defence minister must have the political courage to order the military to induct specified Indian weapons platforms
by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 16th Apr 13

We know that Defence Minister A K Antony is honest, at least financially. But if there is truth in even half the allegations of corruption that dog his ministry, Mr Antony's probity has failed to keep his subordinates straight. The defence minister's thoughtless and knee-jerk reaction has been to declare that developing weaponry in India is the way to end corruption. Mr Antony, it would appear, believes that corruption is a foreign product.



But ending corruption does not feature in the many benefits that will flow from building our own military systems. Our defence acquisition process has been internally corrupted not by foreign devils, but by our own holy cows. Much of the responsibility lies with the prime minister and his national security team, who have shrunk from the hands-on management of defence, limply acquiescing to the military's insistence on making us the world's largest arms buyer. Then there are the generals and air marshals (I shall explain why I leave out admirals) who have deployed the manipulative argument that national security is under dire threat, and only the immediate purchase of this or the other foreign weapons system can protect us from the Chinese/Pakistanis/jehadis, take your pick. Next comes a sprawling, state-owned defence production establishment that has promised much, delivered little, and has never been held accountable for doing so little with so much. Bringing up the herd are the holy calves --- a new crop of private defence companies --- that have sensed clearly that India's rotten defence system is easier joined than reformed.

This country has what is needed to build its own weaponry --- talented engineers, software designers, an industrial base that supplies the world's automotive industry, and a military that can plan and oversee development programmes. But successive governments have failed to provide the political leadership needed to combine these elements. Mr Antony has publicly scoffed at the "miserly" R&D budgets of private defence companies, but history suggests that governments alone have the budgets and organisational clout to create a defence industry.



An aerospace honcho from Russia whom I asked why Indian defence production was doing so badly lobbed a question back at me. Why, he asked, was Russia such a successful builder of sophisticated fighters and helicopters when that country was still unable to build a passable passenger car? The answer, he said without waiting for a reply, was Moscow's strategic direction. Through famine, hardship and war, Russia's leadership systematically brought together the myriad elements of an aerospace industry: educational institutions that churned out aeronautical designers; design bureaus where legends such as Sukhoi, Mikoyan, Beriev, Ilyushin and Tupolev developed generations of aircraft; science laboratories that produced the special materials that go into aircraft and aero-engines; an industrial base that produced high-quality components like pipes, hoses, rivets, pumps and actuators; technological institutes that churned out trained and productive shop floor workers. With all this in place, Moscow decreed that the Russian military would use only Russian aircraft.



While India must upgrade its training, technological manpower, R&D base and production ecosystem, the biggest obstacle to indigenisation remains the military's argument --- supinely swallowed by a political leadership that is still haunted by memories of 1962 --- that Indian soldiers must be equipped with the world's best when they go into harm's way. Not one defence minister, or any national leader, has had the political courage to argue that Indian strategic interest demands that the military equips itself primarily with Indian weaponry, accepting short-term weakness to build long-term capability. The army and Indian Air Force (IAF) do not see that overseas procurement does not solve even the short-term problem, given how frequently it is disrupted by allegations of corruption.

The Indian Navy provides the army and the IAF with daily reminders of the benefits of indigenisation. With the same R&D base, the same feeble defence industry and the same defence ministry the navy has canalised its meagre allocation of 18 per cent of the defence budget into genuine indigenisation. Today, 43 warships are being built in Indian yards, with just two being built abroad. Initial warships were significantly below global standards. But the navy accepted those, building up industry and creating the capability to deliver warships that are currently up to regional, if not global, standards.

The army and the IAF have inexplicably rejected incremental improvement. The army continues to oppose the Arjun tank, apparently willing to countenance nothing less than a perfect fighting machine. Ironically, it is willing to use the outdated T-72, even though the Arjun has outperformed the more modern T-90 tank in comparative trials. Every major army employs "spiral development" of weaponry, accepting into operational service a "Mark I" product, using it and providing feedback that allows the scientists to develop it into a Mark II. The Israeli Merkava tank is currently being developed into a Mark IV.

In a similar quest for sublime perfection, the IAF resists the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. The development of Mark II Arjuns and Tejas has been grudgingly conceded, but the process is being stifled. Such small numbers have been ordered that no industrial ecosystem will be galvanised.

Mr Antony must bluntly tell the army and the IAF that the days of importing weaponry are over. He must order them to identify their requirements and place development orders on Indian industrial consortia. He must bring to the table the components of a defence industrial base --- R&D, industry and the military --- and substitute rhetoric with the placing of firm orders. Sixty Tejas and 500 Arjuns in their Mark I versions would be a good beginning.
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Kim Philby was probably the greatest embarrassment for MI6 in post Cold war era. Oleg Penkovsky was one of their biggest success in the early parts of the Cold war.
nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9102
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by nachiket »

abhishek_sharma wrote:Kim Philby was probably the greatest embarrassment for MI6 in post Cold war era. Oleg Penkovsky was one of their biggest success in the early parts of the Cold war.
Not just Philby. It was the entire "Cambridge Five" ring comprising Philby, Maclean, Burgess, Blunt and a still unidentified fifth member.
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Corera, Gordon The Art of Betrayal: The Secret History of MI6: Life and Death in the British Secret Service
The CIA was also learning from Penkovsky. ‘Who are the people that dream of power and glory, and, not only frustrated in these dreams but perhaps even ridiculed in their daily lives, become so bitter as to turn their backs on family, friends and nation?’ That question was posed to colleagues by a CIA officer soon after Penkovsky. ‘The single, self-evident observation is that the enormous act of defection, of betrayal, treason, is almost invariably the act of a warped, emotionally maladjusted personality,’ the officer continued. ‘It is compelled by a fear, hatred, deep sense of grievance, or obsession with revenge far exceeding in intensity these emotions as experienced by normal reasonably well-integrated and well-adjusted persons … a normal, mature, emotionally healthy person, deeply embedded in his own ethnic, national cultural, social, and family matrix just doesn’t do such things.’ 130

What made someone like Penkovsky take such crazy risks? The unbalanced nature of such spies, the CIA officer argued, was reflected in his own experience of agents.

All of them have been lonely people … [who] have manifested some serious behaviour problem – such as alcoholism, satyriasis, morbid depression, a psychopathic pattern of one type or another, an evasion of adult responsibility… It is only mild hyperbole to say that no one can consider himself a Soviet operations officer until he has gone through the sordid experience of holding his Soviet ‘friend’s’ head while he vomits five days of drinking into the sink.

A retired MI6 man agrees. ‘Most agents were unattractive people. Half were nasty characters who you wouldn’t want to spend much time with. It was a very strange relationship when you meet them in some woods and he hands you some Minox and begins telling you about his life.’

‘Normal people aren’t traitors,’ Dick White once declared. One recommended CIA strategy was to look for the ‘emotionally weak, immature and disturbed fringe elements’ seeking revenge for real or imagined slights. They should be investigated using telephone taps and the gossip of wives and by watching the small signs of irritation and professional or personal jealousy at social events. These irritations could even be encouraged by an officer who got close but who would do so while avoiding polemics and political evangelism. Watching the response to a carefully planted question about how promotions work in the Soviet military might be one way. The aim of the contact is to ‘awaken resentments and anxieties, to plant ideas, to make oneself a sympathetic friend … The process is one of pinning the blame for his intense personal dissatisfactions on the regime.’ In a final aside, the officer also suggests looking for the ‘unique vulnerabilities of middle age … The period of life from say age 37 on shows the incidences of divorce, disappearance, alcoholism, infidelity, suicide, embezzlement … because it’s a time when men take stock’ and the result is often ‘traumatic in the extreme’. ‘Nobody ever defected because they were happy,’ a CIA psychologist decided after studying the files, including that of Penkovsky. 131

Most of the spies Britain and the US ran in the Cold War were walk-ins, like Penkovsky, rather than the result of careful cultivation. But still the hope was that spies could be recruited through careful preparation leading to an approach. ‘Ideally you should have got to know the person so you have built up some sort of trust and you are much more likely to get a yes if you have done that,’ explains Colin McColl. ‘The cold approach is very, very dicey. It has worked.’ 132


jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by jamwal »

From WikiLeaks:

Link: https://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/ ... 401_a.html
Sir Creek and Siachen disputes
-----------------------------
9.(C) Raghavan reported that there has been good progress on
the Sir Creek dispute, but that now "the mood in Pakistan is
too self-absorbed to work on it." On Siachen, he reported
that the Indian Army has drawn a line with its political
leadership. It has told the GOI that withdrawal was
tantamount to ceding the area to Pakistan due to the
difficulty of retaking it should Pakistan occupy it.
Instead, the GOI is attempting to "soften" the issue by
proposing joint military projects such as environmental clean
up or trekking. There has been no Pakistani response to
these suggestions, he noted.
Wow, Wikileaks is coming with one disclosure after another. I'm going to donate some money to these guys

[edit: added link]
Last edited by jamwal on 23 Apr 2013 23:00, edited 1 time in total.
KrishnaK
BRFite
Posts: 964
Joined: 29 Mar 2005 23:00

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by KrishnaK »

jamwal,
link please
VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2982
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

From Hindustan Times Blog: India’s nuclear logic
The former Indian foreign secretary, Shyam Saran, gave a revealing speech on India’s nuclear deterrent on April 24th. The speech was titled, somewhat vaguely, “Is India’s Nuclear Deterrent Credible?”

But it more usefully updated India’s nuclear weapons status in a way that hasn’t happened since the release of the draft nuclear doctrine back in the early 2000s.

The most striking part of the speech doctrinally responded to Pakistan’s supposed move to develop tactical nuclear capability. Saran made it clear that India wouldn’t distinguish between a kiloton weapon aimed at tanks or a megatonner aimed at a city. “The label on a nuclear weapon used for attacking India, strategic or tactical, is irrelevant from the Indian perspective. A limited nuclear war is a contradiction in terms. Any nuclear exchange, once initiated, would swiftly and inexorably escalate to the strategic level. Pakistan would be prudent not to assume otherwise as it sometimes appears to do, most recently by developing and perhaps deploying theatre nuclear weapons.”


The speech also fitted in place missing bits of India’s nuclear puzzle.

He confirmed that two legs of India’s nuclear triad — airborne weapons and rail and mobile land-based nuclear warheads — have been completed. And he laid out a timetable for the completion of the third submarine-based leg.

He also confirmed that an official nuclear doctrine has been approved, and bemoaned the face it has not been made public.

“Since January 4, 2003, when India adopted its nuclear doctrine formally at a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), it has moved to put in place, at a measured pace, a triad of land-based, air-delivered and submarine-based nuclear forces and delivery assets to conform to its declared doctrine of no-first use and retaliation only. It has had to create a command and control infrastructure that can survive a first strike and a fully secure communication system that is reliable and hardened against radiation or electronic interference.” Saran argues that if the doctrine cannot be revealed, then India should at least release an annual Strategic Posture Review.

I feel Saran pulled his punches on arguing for the doctrine to be made public. Deterrent works only by being transparent about intent and capability. Otherwise, an opponent may conclude the deterrent is a bluff. At a time when Pakistan is slowly losing its political marbles, the logic of such transparency is stronger than ever.

The speech also lays out a potted history of India’s nuclear posture. One of the more forceful parts of the speech refutes the argument that India went nuclear largely for reasons of prestige. It was China, China and China, Saran makes clear.

“I find somewhat puzzling assertions by some respected security analysts, both Indian and foreign, that India’s nuclear weapons programme has been driven by notions of prestige or global standing rather than by considerations of national security.”

He also makes the argument that India’s nuclear environment with its three-nation minuet makes a lot of the strategy that evolved in the West irrelevant. “It is because of this complexity that notions of flexible response and counter-force targeting, which appeared to have a certain logic in a binary US-Soviet context, lose their relevance in the multi-dimensional threat scenario which prevails certainly in our region.” This is an interesting argument but needs a lot more explaining than this speech was able to.
PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

A curious comment, the only one so far, from a Navtej Sarna:
Still fuzzy and mumbling so that his muttering can be taken as a personal viewpoint - the fact is that India does not have a nuclear doctrine just technology demonstrators and working missiles period
Is this Navtej Sarna, the ambassador to Israel? :) Funny though that someone with the same name as an Indian ambassador should be discrediting the Indian Foreign Secretary's assertions.
satya
BRFite
Posts: 718
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 03:09

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by satya »

Shri Shyam Saranjee is first among equals in race for filling the shoes of GoI's Bhisham Pitamah ( vacant for some time )not to be taken lightly . He has the highest possible approval from all quarters . Its reassuring & timely message .
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32279
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by chetak »

VinodTK wrote:From Hindustan Times Blog: India’s nuclear logic
The most striking part of the speech doctrinally responded to Pakistan’s supposed move to develop tactical nuclear capability. Saran made it clear that India wouldn’t distinguish between a kiloton weapon aimed at tanks or a megatonner aimed at a city. “The label on a nuclear weapon used for attacking India, strategic or tactical, is irrelevant from the Indian perspective. A limited nuclear war is a contradiction in terms. Any nuclear exchange, once initiated, would swiftly and inexorably escalate to the strategic level. Pakistan would be prudent not to assume otherwise as it sometimes appears to do, most recently by developing and perhaps deploying theatre nuclear weapons.”[/b]

He also makes the argument that India’s nuclear environment with its three-nation minuet makes a lot of the strategy that evolved in the West irrelevant. “It is because of this complexity that notions of flexible response and counter-force targeting, which appeared to have a certain logic in a binary US-Soviet context, lose their relevance in the multi-dimensional threat scenario which prevails certainly in our region.” This is an interesting argument but needs a lot more explaining than this speech was able to.
Very upsetting to the kandle kissers and pappi jhappi types. The onlee solution seems to be more people to people contacts and a unilaterally liberalized visa regime to permit the vermin to easily cross the border. :twisted:

BTW, I never really understood,why do so many pakis, given their feral hatred for all things Hindustan, want to come to India and many of the jokers just do not leave after the visa expiry.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by svinayak »

chetak wrote:
BTW, I never really understood,why do so many pakis, given their feral hatred for all things Hindustan, want to come to India and many of the jokers just do not leave after the visa expiry.
They have been boasting to the americans that 50k Pakis are inside India spying for Pak
Americans use that against Indians to show that India cannot do anything.

One gora even told me that Pak missiles can hit India and he was smiling.
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by vishvak »

May be someday Europe will look at India to buy anti missile system against missiles threat from porkies. Who knows if porkies export missiles to some countries not too aligned with goras
pgbhat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4163
Joined: 16 Dec 2008 21:47
Location: Hayden's Ferry

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by pgbhat »

Sarabjit Singh, and the spies we left out in the cold
India’s less-than-enthusiastic covert warfare efforts were, perhaps, shaped by circumstance. In 1947, as imperial Britain left India, its covert services were stripped bare. The senior-most British Indian Police officer in the Intelligence Bureau, Qurban Ali Khan, chose Pakistani citizenship—and left for his new homeland with what few sensitive files departing British officials neglected to destroy. The Intelligence Bureau, Lieutenant-General LP Singh has recorded, was reduced to a “tragi-comic state of helplessness,” possessing nothing but “empty racks and cupboards”.

The Military Intelligence Directorate in New Delhi didn’t even have a map of Jammu and Kashmir to make sense of the first radio intercepts signalling the beginning of the war of 1947-1948.
\
Time hasn’t proved that assumption well-founded—reopening debate on whether Prime Minister Gujral’s decision to shut down the covert war needs to be reviewed. Secure behind its nuclear umbrella, Pakistan has pursued covert war whenever it has deemed it in its best interests. Fearful of the potentially awful consequences of all-out war, Delhi has chosen to weather out the crisis rather than retaliate. India’s political leadership believes aggressive covert means of the kind unleashed in the 1980s would only escalate the spiral of violence.

In the wake of the Kargil war, key intelligence officers including a former Intelligence Bureau director, attempted to persuade Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee to issue the necessary authorisations for renewed offensive covert operations against Pakistan. “Vajpayee didn’t say a word,” recalls one official present at the meeting. “He didn’t say no; he didn’t say yes.”
Following the carnage of 26/11, some in India’s intelligence establishment again pushed to develop the resources needed to target jihadist leaders in Pakistan. The project, intelligence sources say, was also denied clearance.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by sum »

Following the carnage of 26/11, some in India’s intelligence establishment again pushed to develop the resources needed to target jihadist leaders in Pakistan. The project, intelligence sources say, was also denied clearance.
Hoping that this is just a false flag by Intel sources to keep DDM off their toes and there is actually something on-going
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Austin »

Just the usual bluf by media , forget Jihadist they didnt not managed to Target D who was sitting in pakistan for 10-15 years after 1993.
India generally takes it up at MEA level expressing strong displeasure at the presence of Jihadi in Pakistan and thats about it.
Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1286
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by Nikhil T »

What the Indian side does not want to talk when it comes to China story. Unpalatable border home truths and progress that annoy Beijing-baiters.

By K.P. Nayar

<SNIPPED>
An equally strong surmise is that, in part, the Chinese have escalated the dispute now to influence the choice of India’s next foreign secretary. S. Jaishankar, the ambassador in Beijing, is one of the contenders to succeed Ranjan Mathai in a few months and his mettle, leanings and preferences will be tested in the current crisis.

The Chinese have done this before. When Nirupama Rao was ambassador in Beijing and was similarly in the running for the top diplomat’s job, the Chinese created a crisis by infiltrating the embassy, trapping the station chief of the Research and Analysis Wing. Several other staffers were casualties of that episode.

Rao, however, came out unscathed, proved her worth and went on to head South Block. If the political leadership had not stepped into the Ladakh dispute in full force, Jaishankar would have borne the brunt of the latest crisis and been tested before he heads out of Beijing to New Delhi or elsewhere soon.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by ramana »

This one takes the cake. The RAW guy was having an affair with the Chinese spy and KPN claims it was to embarass Nirupama Rao as soon as she was konw to be in teh running for Secy MEA!
The RAW guy should have had better sense.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by ramana »

It seems the new head of French Secret Service is the former Ambassoador to Afghanistan.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Bajolet


Maybe India should try to widen the pool of RAW chiefs beyond the Police to get a better value from the service.
shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7101
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by shyamd »

^^ Got to it before I did.

He's a knowledgable chap and was the intel coordinator for France under sarkozy. He introduced a number of changes and is still working on them as DGSE chief.

--------------
Info leak: 3 Navy officers to be sacked
suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4041
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by suryag »

Sarabjit Singh expires, may he be reborn again in India - thanks Sir for all that you have done
SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16267
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Post by SwamyG »

Sad end. Hats off to the fallen hero.
Locked