Indian Naval Discussion

[Singha]

if we want to pound Cheen mainland and ships, shore based blackjack types and SSNs are best.

but if we want to hunt Cheen units (surface and subs) in the IOR to protect our own shipping, we need a mix of carriers, LRMP and subs.

its not a OR situation, we need to do both.

[prashanth]

Singha sir,
But aren't blackjack types vulnerable to air defence? As an aside, how difficult is it to upscale the IUSAV into a manned stealth bomber that can fly undetected over tibet into mainland china? Just my thoughts.
Apologies for OT

[Singha]

To shoot the blackjack you need to detect it 1000km away moving at mach1.5 on its attack run. Its can remain at the edges of air defence bubble using its endurance and launch shower of missiles, it can also draft a longish route around well surveyed areas. Over the ocean it is truly in its element and can make life difficult for a surface group without organic carrier air wing.
And you just cannot follow it back to a fwd air base...it will disappear 2000km into the interior after a strike.

It is a creature of the dark side and grows in strength at night.

[Will]

Costs.A conventional diesel AIP sub (not a Scorpene!) such as the Amur would cost not more than 1/3rd that of a nuclear boat (Though Wik has given the cost of an Amur as just $100M,I am sceptical of this figure,a figure of $250-$300M would be more accurate) and have Diesel subs are better suited to littoral warfare which is the primary task of the IN when dealing with the PN and sanitising our coastline.

The acquisition of at least two more Akulas is another matter,which should simultaneously be pursued as Indian nuclear boat construction for the next decade will be firmly fixed upon building SSBNs first before we find the money and space in our yards to build SSGNs.

Since we are talking of Hunter Killers , if we asked the Russians nicely maybe they would build us a scaled down conventional Yasen class clone Now that would be really something.

[Prem Kumar]

if we want to pound Cheen mainland and ships, shore based blackjack types and SSNs are best.

but if we want to hunt Cheen units (surface and subs) in the IOR to protect our own shipping, we need a mix of carriers, LRMP and subs.

its not a OR situation, we need to do both.

And we need SOSUS-type arrays. With our large hydrographic experience, this is the next logical step. These are the AWACS/Aerostats of the oceans

[John]

o shoot the blackjack you need to detect it 1000km away moving at mach1.5 on its attack run. Its can remain at the edges of air defence bubble using its endurance and launch shower of missiles, it can also draft a longish route around well surveyed areas. Over the ocean it is truly in its element and can make life difficult for a surface group without organic carrier air wing.
And you just cannot follow it back to a fwd air base...it will disappear 2000km into the interior after a strike.

If you are firing conv. stand off weapons even Bear can get that job done safely. Also it cannot sustain supersonic flight for long it is mainly designed for low altitude terrain following attack run, since it at high altitude most air defenses like Patriot would have made quick work out of it.

[Singha]

Interesting, a couple of blackjacks penetrating lololo with a tonnage of heavy jdams and sdbs could likely wipe an airbase off the map from tens of km away.

Carlo kopp should do a nice analysis with graphs on the blackjacks envelope

[Philip]

Will,better still if they kept on with assisting us in indigenous N-boat construction so that we design the boats for our specific requirements.In our context,there would be not too much of a difference in an SSGN design and an SSBN design-see how ex SSBNs like the USN's Ohio has been converted from an SSBN into an SSGN.True the SSGN/SSN will have to be a faster boat and armed with a variety of anti-sub,anti-ship and land attack weaponry.It should also have the ability for surveillance and inserting special forces along with their mini-subs/chariots and other gear.A lot of the components now being used on new Russian subs could be used so that it would be easy to maintain the boats,train crews,etc.

[Manish_Sharma]

To shoot the blackjack you need to detect it 1000km away moving at mach1.5 on its attack run. Its can remain at the edges of air defence bubble using its endurance and launch shower of missiles, it can also draft a longish route around well surveyed areas. Over the ocean it is truly in its element and can make life difficult for a surface group without organic carrier air wing.
And you just cannot follow it back to a fwd air base...it will disappear 2000km into the interior after a strike.

It is a creature of the dark side and grows in strength at night.

http://www.indiadefence.com/Tu-160.htm

.............The “significantly small” Indian Navy requirement of strategic combined maritime strike and reconnaissance platforms, justified in light of their deployment restricted over oceans and need not over fly integrated hostile enemy Air Defence (AD) system and missile network over land, makes even highly sophisticated and expensive designs approachable if operational benefits significantly overlap the financial and technical investment. In this context perhaps the optimally suitable maritime strike platform for Indian Navy resides in the Russian Tu-160 “Blackjack” supersonic strategic bomber, the true successor of Tu-95/142 “Bear” and the pride of the Russian Dalnaya Aviatsiya since reorganized to 37th Strategic Air Army comprising of the 22nd Guards Red Banner Donbass Heavy Bomber Division and the 79th Guards Heavy Bomber Division in May 1998. Both high-profile Divisions posses a mix of five regiments of nuclear and conventionally armed Tu-95MS6/MS16 “Bear” strategic bombers, single regiment of nuclear armed Tu-160 “Blackjack” strategic bombers plus four regiments of Tu-22M3 “Backfire” conventionally armed medium range bombers. Tu-160s by themselves equip the 121st Air Regiment based at Engels Air Force Base at Saratov region.

Tu-160 in contrast to Tu-22M represents a formidable state-of-the-art Fly-By-Wire (FBW) platform with 10,500-km inter-continental range with considerable weapons load estimated on a mission profile of subsonic high altitude cruise, followed by transonic penetration at low altitude on internal fuel alone. The IFR option is available for further enhancement of range. Russian Air Force Tu-160s repeatedly displayed their capability to operate over Indian Ocean during Indo-Russian Naval Exercises (INDRA) from Russian homeland and Central Asian Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) bases striking down dummy or notional targets with cruise missiles. On conceptual level, if operated from Indian bases the Indian Ocean “will fall under scanner” in totality along with adjoining territories of West Asia and Far East.

In Tu-160 design, sufficient stresses have been given on reduction of RCS with the wing and fuselage gradually integrated into a single-piece configuration. The four NK-32 augmented turbofan engines, each providing a maximum thrust of 25,000-kg are installed in two pods under the shoulders of the wing with engine-intakes well shielded under fuselage to be screened from look-down radars. Measures were also applied to reduce the signature of the engines to infra-red and radar detectors. The Tu-160 avionics system consisting of navigation and attack radar and electronic countermeasures system will represent the pristine Russian technology after proposed upgradations, which are to follow alongside resumption of production lately for Russian 37th Strategic Air Army service. Even a limited export order for Indian Navy may evoke considerable interest as this is bound to “streamline” the re-opened production line to subsequently cater future Russian Air Force needs.

The Tu-160 in Indian Navy service may well be the perfect carrier (almost a made for each other) of the projected air-launched variant of supersonic (Mach 2. Indo-Russian PJ-10 BrahMos Anti-Ship Cruise Missile (ASCM) with smaller booster and additional tail fins for stability during launch, accommodating six of them on multi-station launchers in each of the two internal weapons bays. BrahMos ASCM is a joint venture between Indian DRDO and Russian NPO Mashinostroyeniya (NPO Mash) and inherits from its predecessor the Russian Yakhont ASCM, low RCS with an active radar homing seeker to facilitate fire-and-forget launch. Varieties of flight trajectories including sea-skimming or terminal pop-up followed by a deadly dive are meant to complicate the task of the adversary.

Mid-course guidance is inertial, developed and refined by Indian scientists. It is now an open secret that for further refinement of mid-course guidance the Indians are working hard at enhancing and refining the Inertial Navigation System (INS) with possible Israeli assistance that keeps track of the smallest change in velocity of the missile from its launch. In fact, if the warhead is nuclear tipped to cause wide-area destruction, the degree of accuracy delivered by INS is sufficient. Indians are believed to have obtained gyroscopes and other related items from European nations and are said to have successfully reverse-engineered them. Concurrently as a parallel development and as part of Alfa next-generation airborne reconnaissance and strike system, NPO Mash unveiled the Yakhont-M air-launched supersonic ASCM at the MAKS 2003 air show, which share elements with the Indo-Russian PJ-10 BrahMos. Armed with multi-sensor guidance, to engage surface ships and ground targets at up to 300-km, reconnaissance and target acquisition are to be provided by radar and electro-optical sensor equipped Kondor low-Earth-orbit satellites.

No wonder, BrahMos is rapidly emerging to be an enigma of sorts as numerous variants are being proposed or mooted simultaneously. The quest for a Brahmos LACM variant was hinted at in a test at Pokhran during December 2004, the missile being equipped with special image processing software for terminal homing and subsequently searched, located and destroyed a 50-cm thick concrete bunker with pinpoint accuracy. Although not officially stated, the special image processing software could well be a Digital Scene Matching Area Correlator (DSMAC) variant, which uses a zoom lens to collect images and matches them with the snaps of the approach to the target stored in the memory, to conduct precision strikes against an array of enemy counter-force and counter-value targets ranging from airfields to overland communications, command and control centres and powerful air defence installations.

There is considerable speculation that the ultimate BrahMos variant could emerge as tri-service sub-sonic or transonic LACM variant with an estimated range of 800-km to 1,400-km with Global Positioning System (GPS) guidance backup. Such a formidable missile system will offer considerable stand-off distance to every launch platform and will enable Indian Navy airborne LRMP/ASW and strike platforms to execute their operational roles without having to enter hostile airspace or engage enemy AD systems. Looking from a pure technological standpoint, Tu-160 “Blackjack” in Indian Navy colours will effectively eclipse other airborne strategic and sub-strategic platforms “in the vicinity” like Chinese Peoples Liberation Army-Air Force (PLA-AF) operated H-6 (Tu-16) bombers and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) F-111 strike fighters and only be competitive with USAF B-2 Spirit platforms occasionally based in Diego Garcia.

[Singha]

i think if we can buy 6 x MRTT refuelers for around $250 mil each, we can buy 12 blackjacks new build. sure Rus will make some profit and use that to fund a few of their own, but thats life.....the Big Shtick is not for free.

but imagine the ungodly things we could do with it....we could fly to the edge of antarctica and spook aussie ships or maybe take a trip to japan and land directly in yokohama for a combined JMSDF exercise....or wander around off the vietnamese shore close to hainan....

there's a lot of fun to be had with the blackjack.

as for tibet - airbases can be POUNDED with dozens of heavy standoff weapons in a single sortie .. Ahuja sir will just love playing around with a few these.

for kargil2 - the top of tiger hill will disappear in a cloud of debris as 24x2000lb bombs strike it and thats it for the stone bunkers.

[Austin]

http://www.indiadefence.com/Tu-160.htm

I hope my friend Sayan understands that Russia would never sell Tu-160 or any SSBN as they are counted under Arms Control Treaty (START ) and are Strategic Weapons , Even the idea of selling them would be considered as destabilising by NPA in US and both US and China would be at Russis neck.

The best IN can hope for Tu-22M3M , its a semi-strategic bomber that does not get counted under any arms control agreement with US and the latest M3M variant are being modernised with a modified IRBIS radar and modern electronics and weapon system.

We can think about integrating Brahmos and Nirbhai if we are serious on Tu-22M3.

[Singha]

the fact its counted as a strategic weapon shows the power of this mighty beast.

[Austin]

the fact its counted as a strategic weapon shows the power of this mighty beast.

Its just a bomber with a range that can be considered as Continental , Fact is even Tu-22M3 was forced to remove its refulling probe because DIA considered that SU was hiding its true range and with the probe it will get strategic range and would get counted under arms control but even without a probe it has signigicant radius of action think 2000 km with full load of 24 tons.

[member_20317]

Tu22M3M would really dominate the IOR. here is the density of merchant shipping in IOR. Su-30MKI can do it but without the benefit of any loitering capacity and without the benefit of multiple missile shots. As Singha ji mentioned a 1000 km detection range requirement for countering this thing so the opponent would need a land based OTH and even then remain vulnerable.

Perhaps by 2025 we should aim to have a small but potent bomber force with IN. A later iteration of Tu22. In anycase if the chinese own the Tu22 line as is rumoured right now then an pinidigenous bomber with the PN is not very far off. They too would require something to threaten Indian shipping with and to avoid a repeat of Operation Trident and Python.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shipp ... _black.png


Added later:
Krishnan bhai the photu was too big for the forum so modified it to a url only. Shows how almost all (except the shipping line going from gelf to australia) shipping lines in IOR are within ~2000 km of Indian coast. With loiter a Tu22 would be a deadly asset to own.

[krishnan]

What photu is that ????

[John]

We can always purchase acquire Su-34 for maritime strike purpose.

[vivek_ahuja]

You know you don't have to strike the ships 2000 km away, right? I mean, look at the region near ANC. One could throw grenades off the coast and probably hit an enemy ship from there.

But seriously, Su-30s and carrier based Mig-29K are enough for the naval strike role.

But coming to the Tibet based sector, the TU-22M as a cruise missile truck is what I see as its most useful role. And in case Cheen procures it, I see it replacing their H-6M/Ks (not the U tanker variants or the other EW variants) in the coming decade.

But that's just JMT.

[Austin]

Central Vigilance Commission starts probe against Scorpene project head

MUMBAI: Already mired in controversy due to massive cost-overruns, the Scorpene project — India's first conventionally developed submarine — has been hit by another torpedo.

The Central Vigilance Commission (CVC) has launched an inquiry against Scorpene project head, Commodore (retired) Gopal Bharti, following a complaint alleged financial irregularities in the project. The identity of the complainant is being withheld under the Whistleblower's Act.

While the first of the six submarines were to be delivered to the Indian Navy by Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) last year, the deadline has been pushed to 2015. Interestingly, even as the probe is underway, MDL — in contravention of service rules — allowed Bharti to take premature retirement on January 1, 2013.

The whistleblower listed out a slew of financial irregularities including one in which Bharti took his son abroad on public money. Another serious charge is he purposely delayed placing orders for about 170 of 300 items — called Mazagon Docks Procured Items — essential to build the Scorpene.

Sources say orders for the items, worth around 138 million, could have been easily placed in the three to four years when Bharti headed the project. Incidentally, defence Minister A K Antony has already cited red-tapism as a reason for the five-year delay and massive cost overruns of not less than a few thousand crores.

Bharti allegedly made a false claim and pocketed 900, ostensibly to purchase train tickets on a 2008-visit to France when in reality, the cost was borne by DCNS, the French partner in the Scorpene project. The complaint has listed out how DCNS then issued a credit note asking MDL to reimburse the train ticket expense, but which they mysteriously cancelled later.

Another serious allegation against the retired commodore is about the disappearance of 15 of over 30 high pressure specialized underwater valves from his department. The complaint says Bharti, while shrugging off the responsibility, put the onus on his juniors. "MDL is learnt not to have made any enquiry on how the valves disappeared, or who will bear the additional cost," said officials.

Commodore Bharti, director ( Submarine and Heavy Engineering), however has vehemently denied any wrongdoing. "I don't know of any CVC inquiry against me. The allegations made against me are by disgruntled individuals and are baseless," he said. The MDL spokesperson, too,

denied the allegations of irregularities or of the CVC inquiry. "Bharti has been relieved as per service rules with necessary permission of the competent authorities," the spokesperson said.

[Austin]

Navy set to issue tender for new submarines

[John]

But coming to the Tibet based sector, the TU-22M as a cruise missile truck is what I see as its most useful role. And in case Cheen procures it, I see it replacing their H-6M/Ks (not the U tanker variants or the other EW variants) in the coming decad

As we had already discussed countless times' Russia would never allow it to be modified for such a purpose because it can also be adapted for strategic strike. if ever sold to india or china it can only be fitted with AsuW armaments...

[Prem Kumar]

You know you don't have to strike the ships 2000 km away, right? I mean, look at the region near ANC. One could throw grenades off the coast and probably hit an enemy ship from there.

But seriously, Su-30s and carrier based Mig-29K are enough for the naval strike role.

But coming to the Tibet based sector, the TU-22M as a cruise missile truck is what I see as its most useful role. And in case Cheen procures it, I see it replacing their H-6M/Ks (not the U tanker variants or the other EW variants) in the coming decade.

But that's just JMT.

IF we decide to purchase long range bombers, wouldnt it be under the IAF? I hope the IAF's mindset towards bombers changes. IMO, we badly need a bomber squadron or two, especially once Nirbhay and Brahmos-A kicks in. Either purchase TU-22M or build a B2-esque stealth bomber

[vivek_ahuja]

But coming to the Tibet based sector, the TU-22M as a cruise missile truck is what I see as its most useful role. And in case Cheen procures it, I see it replacing their H-6M/Ks (not the U tanker variants or the other EW variants) in the coming decad

As we had already discussed countless times' Russia would never allow it to be modified for such a purpose because it can also be adapted for strategic strike. if ever sold to india or china it can only be fitted with AsuW armaments...

When did Cheen start asking for Russian permission when it comes to modifying and reverse-engineering their aircraft?

And I am certainly not looking at this aircraft for Indian use, air-force or naval.

[Aditya G]

Tu-22M is fancy for sure but the trick can be done by buying in more Su-30s and basing them in Iran, Oman, ANC and Mauritius Su-34 is a good compromise ... but i am not convinced if the main radar sensor and its production is sorted out yet. Even Brahmos equipped Tu-142, IL-38 and P-8I will do the trick.

[John]

When did Cheen start asking for Russian permission when it comes to modifying and reverse-engineering their aircraft?

And I am certainly not looking at this aircraft for Indian use, air-force or naval.

China wouldn't but your question should be have we ever done anything without Russia's permission. Heck even adapting Brahmos for non Russian platforms requires Russia's blessings...

[vivek_ahuja]

IF we decide to purchase long range bombers, wouldnt it be under the IAF? I hope the IAF's mindset towards bombers changes. IMO, we badly need a bomber squadron or two, especially once Nirbhay and Brahmos-A kicks in. Either purchase TU-22M or build a B2-esque stealth bomber

Replied in Military Aviation thread, saar.

[vivek_ahuja]

Tu-22M is fancy for sure but the trick can be done by buying in more Su-30s and basing them ... ANC and Mauritius ... Even Brahmos equipped Tu-142, IL-38 and P-8I will do the trick.

I agree.

[vivek_ahuja]

China wouldn't but your question should be have we ever done anything without Russia's permission. Heck even adapting Brahmos for non Russian platforms requires Russia's blessings...

Exactly why the Tu-22M does not make sense for India in any shape or form. No need and no sense doing so.

But we have to anticipate our response to Cheen doing this and deploying the aircraft against us. Frankly, it does not make any difference when it comes to stand-off launches whether an H-6 does it or a Tu-22M except the response time allocated to the defending side and the extended range the aircraft gives the enemy, expanding his bubble around the mainland in which his launchers will pose a threat. If that is within the comfort zone, the aircraft does not represent an elevated threat any more than the H-6 would.

[srin]

Navy set to issue tender for new submarines

Is there something drastically wrong with Scorpene class (which can have AIP as add-on) that we need to go for further RFP and negotiation ? We may have options for extra subs that we can exercise and then maybe manufacture more ...

If we want a second line, we should design and go for one ourselves. Otherwise, what ToT are we talking about that we got from the scorpene project ?

[Aditya G]

http://www.asianage.com/columnists/few- ... sities-144

n September-October 2000, as the Eastern Fleet Commander, I led a task force of warships on a 45-day overseas deployment to what is now a hotly disputed region, namely the South China Sea and the East China Sea.

We made port calls to show indigenously-built Indian warships and also exercised with warships of Singapore, Vietnam, China, South Korea, Japan and Indonesia. After this path-breaking deployment, the Indian Navy has carried out 60-day deployments every year to the Asia Pacific Region, which is of vital interest to India. In addition, our warships and submarines deploy on similar flag showing missions in the Indian Ocean Region, as also in the Mediterranean, Europe and, occasionally, the American continent. These periodic deployments show that India is aware that over 90 per cent of India’s trade is by sea, 50 per cent of India’s sea-borne trade (including energy imports) is to and from the West and 50 per cent is eastwards. The impressive growth and deployment of the Indian Navy is recognised globally, but organisational issues of higher defence management remain, which need to be resolved so that our national interests may always be fully protected by a Navy on which billions of dollars are spent.
It is a matter of time before the Indian Navy begins operating ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) of the INS Arihant and the follow-on types. In the strategic field of nuclear deterrence, the Indian Navy will deploy the SSBNs as mandated, but the question is: what will the government do in case of a doomsday scenario, wherein India or its military is attacked by an enemy nuclear “first strike”?
In 2008, it took massive public outcry for the government to permit Indian naval ships to commence anti-piracy patrols off Somalia. Subsequently, 26/11 forced the government to beef up coastal security, which had been neglected despite the Mumbai bomb blasts of 1993. By early 2011, the Indian Navy and the Indian Coast Guard (ICG) neutralised the threat of piracy within 600 nautical miles off India’s west coast (numerous pirate boats were sunk and over 120 pirates arrested), and have also deterred repetition of 26/11. Indian Navy warships off Somalia have co-operated with the international community in counter-piracy operations ensuring, for the first time in over five years, a decline in the number of Somali piracy-related seizure of merchant ships.
Impressed by the growth of the professional Indian Navy, Vietnam, in 2011, offered India a naval base in the South China Sea. The government is yet to take a decision, despite the fact that such a facility is essential if the Indian Navy is to protect Indian sea-borne trade and ONGC oil exploration in South China Sea. The only alternative is induction of 6 to 12 tactical nuclear submarines (SSNs) of the INS Chakra type, for prolonged deployment in distant waters without any base support.
Recently China has upped the ante by declaring that Tibet (including “lower Tibet” i.e. Arunachal Pradesh), South China Sea, East China Sea and the Yellow Sea as areas of its “core interests”, and that it would not tolerate any foreign interference in these areas. India has yet to spell out its core national interests in the region.
The year 2012 marks the 400th anniversary of the Indian Navy, which traces its origin to 1612, when a squadron of the East India Company warships defeated the Portuguese in a sea battle off Surat. On December 4, 2012, Indian Navy Chief, Adm. D.K. Joshi, speaking to the media on the occasion of Navy Day, said that the Indian Navy would be ready to sail anywhere (including the South China Sea), to protect India’s national interests. Unfortunately, India’s national security adviser, Shiv Shankar Menon, who was in Beijing for talks, issued a statement to appease the Chinese. Around the same time, the Maldives government asked the Indian infrastructure firm GMR to get out of its project on the Male airport. Shortly after, a Maldivian government delegation went to Beijing for “defence and military co-operation” and returned on December 13, 2012, with a $500 million military aid package.
The Indian Navy (along with the Indian Army and Air Force) assisted the Maldives government in 1988 coup attempt, and again in 2004 after the December 26 tsunami. The ICG and the Indian Navy have been training Maldives Coast Guard personnel for over two decades. Has all the goodwill built up by Indian sea power been squandered in a few days because of inept Indian diplomacy? The Chinese, who set up an embassy in Male a year ago, are now entrenched in India’s backyard (China also built the Gwadar Port in Pakistan and Hambantota Port in Sri Lanka, in addition to ports in Bangladesh and Burma). The Gwadar Port, located 360 nautical miles off the strategic Gulf of Oman, is expected to become a Chinese naval base in a few years. The threats to India’s oil imports from West Asia are obvious.
In India, naval diplomacy is something that is still frowned upon. In February 2008, the Indian Navy organised a meeting of the heads of Indian Ocean navies and coast guards in New Delhi under the name Indian Ocean Naval Symposium. This two-day symposium was inaugurated by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and attended by Navy and Coast Guard chiefs of 30-odd Indian Ocean nations, along with numerous foreign ambassadors. Conspicuous by its absence were officials from our external affairs ministry; apparently, the Indian Foreign Service was peeved at the Indian Navy stepping on its turf.

Our defence and foreign ministries need to be reminded of what Fredrick the Great of Prussia said over a century ago, “Diplomacy without military power is like music without instruments.”
The latest American National Intelligence Council report of 2012 lists India as one of the top three economies, along with the US and China, by 2030. Clearly, if India has to emerge as a great power, it must closely co-ordinate its diplomatic and naval efforts. This is vital since the only place where the Chinese military machine and economy are vulnerable is in its extended sea trade routes in the Indian Ocean, which can be interdicted by the Indian Navy. China’s proxy Pakistan too is extremely vulnerable to a naval blockade by India.
The higher defence management in India needs a drastic change with the Indian armed forces being integrated with the government (ministry of defence) as is the case in most nations of the world.

The writer, a former vice-admiral, retired as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, Visakhapatnam

[member_23455]

http://www.asianage.com/columnists/few- ... sities-144

n September-October 2000, as the Eastern Fleet Commander, I led a task force of warships on a 45-day overseas deployment to what is now a hotly disputed region, namely the South China Sea and the East China Sea.

On December 4, 2012, Indian Navy Chief, Adm. D.K. Joshi, speaking to the media on the occasion of Navy Day, said that the Indian Navy would be ready to sail anywhere (including the South China Sea), to protect India’s national interests. Unfortunately, India’s national security adviser, Shiv Shankar Menon, who was in Beijing for talks, issued a statement to appease the Chinese. Around the same time, the Maldives government asked the Indian infrastructure firm GMR to get out of its project on the Male airport. Shortly after, a Maldivian government delegation went to Beijing for “defence and military co-operation” and returned on December 13, 2012, with a $500 million military aid package.
The Indian Navy (along with the Indian Army and Air Force) assisted the Maldives government in 1988 coup attempt, and again in 2004 after the December 26 tsunami. The ICG and the Indian Navy have been training Maldives Coast Guard personnel for over two decades. Has all the goodwill built up by Indian sea power been squandered in a few days because of inept Indian diplomacy? The Chinese, who set up an embassy in Male a year ago, are now entrenched in India’s backyard (China also built the Gwadar Port in Pakistan and Hambantota Port in Sri Lanka, in addition to ports in Bangladesh and Burma). The Gwadar Port, located 360 nautical miles off the strategic Gulf of Oman, is expected to become a Chinese naval base in a few years. The threats to India’s oil imports from West Asia are obvious.
In India, naval diplomacy is something that is still frowned upon. In February 2008, the Indian Navy organised a meeting of the heads of Indian Ocean navies and coast guards in New Delhi under the name Indian Ocean Naval Symposium. This two-day symposium was inaugurated by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and attended by Navy and Coast Guard chiefs of 30-odd Indian Ocean nations, along with numerous foreign ambassadors. Conspicuous by its absence were officials from our external affairs ministry; apparently, the Indian Foreign Service was peeved at the Indian Navy stepping on its turf.

Our defence and foreign ministries need to be reminded of what Fredrick the Great of Prussia said over a century ago, “Diplomacy without military power is like music without instruments.”
The latest American National Intelligence Council report of 2012 lists India as one of the top three economies, along with the US and China, by 2030. Clearly, if India has to emerge as a great power, it must closely co-ordinate its diplomatic and naval efforts. This is vital since the only place where the Chinese military machine and economy are vulnerable is in its extended sea trade routes in the Indian Ocean, which can be interdicted by the Indian Navy. China’s proxy Pakistan too is extremely vulnerable to a naval blockade by India.
The higher defence management in India needs a drastic change with the Indian armed forces being integrated with the government (ministry of defence) as is the case in most nations of the world.

The writer, a former vice-admiral, retired as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, Visakhapatnam

Too bad the author is writing for a publication with hardly any circulation -articles like these need to be hammered home in Op-ed columns of all national publications on a monthly basis along with a warning of the alarming parallels at a strategic level to the ill-thought, politically hamstrung "Forward Policy" which resulted in us getting a bloody nose in 1962.

The military has clearly institutionalized those lessons but the buffoonery of the netas and babus continues. DK Joshi is no Sundarji but he would do well to leave AK Antony in no doubt that the next Sino-Indian confrontation is going to happen at sea, and we better do a Sumdorong Chu to them before they do a Rezang La to us.

[Philip]

The kind of extra "bang" that is required for the next-gen class of subs-for example like UUVs to be sent into "harm's way",to scout harbour defences of the enemy,etc.,special forces mini-subs,can only be accommodated on subs larger than 3000t+,which for any conventional sub would pose huge technological challenges to miniaturise as much eqpt. as poss.With a nuclear boat however,this is an easier task as more space is available.An N-boat can also carry a larger and wider variety of weaponry including long range stand-off missiles.

Therefore,the P-75I project is going to be a very challenging task for any manufacturer and the IN would do better to increase numbers in a cost-effective manner ,instead of being highly ambitious.It is ludicrous to imagine that we can design a cutting edge high-tech sub for the 21st century with all the bells and whistles when we are labouring so much in building a firang design,the Scorpene,3 years delayed at least and with huge cost overruns.What is immediately needed are healthier numbers of subs in service first,which can dal with the expanding area of operations of the IN,now into the Indo-China Sea as well as the IOR.Even if the decision on the next sub line is taken within two years of the RFP being issued,at the current rate of construction by MDL,it will take at least a decade before the first of the new class is launched.

The force multiplier for the IN at the moment is Brahmos.The priority should be to see that a suitable platform for the UW version of the missile is found asap.

It is great that the IN is now 400 years old,but a crying shame that the historic event was not celebrated in a manner befitting the historic occasion.I was present in the UK at the "Trafalgar 200" celebrations at Portsmouth,where ships from all over the world including the IN were present to mark the historic anniversary of this momentous battle.There was a royal review of the fleet of international warships,a flying display by the Red arrows despite the inclement weather and a marvellous display of sailing ships and a recreation of the battle accompanied by a truly majestic fireworks display ,giving an impression of the ferocious battle and the massive storm that came afterwards which supposedly sank more ships than the battle itself! This was truly a missed opportunity ,but perhaps the IN could celebrate it at the end of this year.

[member_20036]

http://m.timesofindia.com/city/mumbai/C ... 879802.cms

Central Vigilance Commission starts probe against Scorpene project head


MUMBAI: Already mired in controversy due to massive cost-overruns, the Scorpene project — India's first conventionally developed submarine — has been hit by another torpedo.
The Central Vigilance Commission (CVC) has launched an inquiry against Scorpene project head, Commodore (retired) Gopal Bharti, following a complaint alleged financial irregularities in the project.The identity of the complainant is being withheld under the Whistleblower's Act.
While the first of the six submarineswere to be delivered to the Indian Navy by Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) last year, the deadline has been pushed to 2015. Interestingly, even as the probe is underway, MDL — in contravention of service rules — allowed Bharti to take premature retirement on January 1, 2013.
The whistleblower listed out a slew of financial irregularities including one in which Bharti took his son abroad on public money. Another serious charge is he purposely delayed placing orders for about 170 of 300 items — called Mazagon Docks Procured Items — essential to build the Scorpene.
Sources say orders for the items, worth around 138 million, could have been easily placed in the three to four years when Bharti headed the project. Incidentally, defence Minister A K Antony has already cited red-tapism as a reason for the five-year delay and massive cost overruns of not less than a few thousand crores.
Bharti allegedly made a false claim and pocketed 900, ostensibly to purchase train tickets on a 2008-visit to France when in reality,the cost was borne by DCNS, the French partner in the Scorpene project. The complaint has listed outhow DCNS then issued a credit note asking MDL to reimburse the train ticket expense, but which they mysteriously cancelled later.
Another serious allegation against the retired commodore is about the disappearance of 15 of over 30 high pressure specialized underwater valves from his department. The complaint says Bharti, while shrugging off the responsibility, putthe onus on his juniors. "MDL is learnt not to have made any enquiry on how the valves disappeared, or who will bear the additional cost," said officials.
Commodore Bharti, director (Submarine and Heavy Engineering),however has vehemently denied any wrongdoing. "I don't know of any CVC inquiry against me. The allegations made against me are by disgruntled individuals and are baseless," he said. The MDL spokesperson, too,
denied the allegations of irregularities or of the CVC inquiry."Bharti has been relieved as per service rules with necessary permission of the competent authorities," the spokesperson said.

[arijitkm]

Striking at sea.
Beginning of the rise of India’s blue water navy.

[sum]

Against the darkness of the sky, the commanding officer of the Pakistani destroyer Khyber observes a bright light approaching from his starboard side. The officer’s first impression – according to
Pakistan Navy records – is that the bright white light is a flare dropped by an aircraft. But later observing the speed of its approach, he decides it to be an aircraft. He is dead wrong. The white light, now screaming in towards the Pakistani ship, is the exhaust of a Styx anti-ship missile launched from the Nirghat. The missile scores a direct hit on the Khyber’s starboard side, destroying the boiler room. As huge flames rise from the ship, the radio operator sends out a message, which shows the Pakistani crew had no idea what hit them: “ENEMY AIRCRAFT ATTACKED SHIP. NO 1 BOILER HIT. SHIP STOPPED.”

Minutes later another Styx crashes into the Khyber, destroying the second boiler as well as all lifeboats on board. The crew frantically tries to dump ammo before the fire spreads but finds the torpedoes jammed. Within minutes the ship goes down in a spectacular fireball. There are few survivors.

From a distance, the Pakistani minesweeper Muhafiz is observing the conflagration in the darkness of night. As the ship moves towards the scene of the action at a speed of nine knots, a white light is observed heading straight for the ship. The third Styx, fired by the missile boat Veer, hits the Muhafiz on the port side, near the bridge. The Pakistani ship disintegrates almost instantly.Like a pack of wolves, the Indian Navy’s ships swoop in on Karachi. And as a bonus the fleet sinks the supply ship, Venus Challenger, carrying American ammunition from the US-occupied port of Saigon to Pakistan, and its escort warship, Shahjahan.

Just reading this para is giving me the chills and goosebumps.

Superbly written.

[GeorgeWelch]

Is there something drastically wrong with Scorpene class (which can have AIP as add-on) that we need to go for further RFP and negotiation ?

That it might never arrive?

2005 - delivery in 2010 (5 years out)
2008 - delivery in 2012 (4 years out)
2011 - delivery in 2015 (4 years out)

[srin]

Is there something drastically wrong with Scorpene class (which can have AIP as add-on) that we need to go for further RFP and negotiation ?

That it might never arrive?

2005 - delivery in 2010 (5 years out)
2008 - delivery in 2012 (4 years out)
2011 - delivery in 2015 (4 years out)

However - it is far more concrete than the P75I. RFI in 2008, and RFP "any day now" for past couple of years. And then, it will be MMRCA circus all over again - a year to process the RFP, a year of trials (in hot water and cold water conditions) and two years of negotiations. Anybody can get blacklisted anytime. Add another 6 months for DAC, CCS etc to approve and then after everything, finance ministry says there is no money. For a country which is the biggest importer, we really don't know how to procure.

OTOH - Scorpenes are being built, funds have already been committed and allocated. Even while speaking of CVC investigations, nobody is talking of blacklisting anybody. Add more scorpenes and have 10+ subs of a single design that you have mastered. Make changes (throw out MESMA and have our own AIP) if necessary.

[Pratyush]

WRT the scorpeans. Dont get your hopes up. It still possible that the project gets scrpped.

The interesting detail is that the project has always been years away form completion. By the time it enters service, the design would be nearly 20 years old.
Placing the IN in the paradoxical position of having a brand new sub in 2015 . That was state of the art in 1995. That too without AIP. While the prc and the tspn would be having boats with aip.

The P75I may well follow the same script. With the first boat entering water only by 2030.

By which time, the sub arm would be a shadow of what it is today.

[Philip]

There is a recent debate going on in the US about the CNS wanting "bomb trucks" instead of very costly "luxury cars" with respect to US naval aviation.It is a far sighted policy when UCAVs are on the horizon and the erosion of the advantage of the stealth factor with the advent of new anti-stealth sensors and newer air defences.This view of thought should be carefully examined not only by the IN but also by the IAF with respect to the MMRCA.In the naval context,expecting "luxury" subs with all the bells and whistles instead of simple robust reliable subs that can "do the business".What the IN should've done some time ago was to take one its many Kilos,as so many have gone to Russia for upgrades,and added a Brahmos VLS plug. The sad fact is that even by 2020 with our new Scorpenes,they will still possess vastly inferior subsonic Exocet anti-ship missiles,when the hypersonic version of Brahmos would've been tested! As I've said earlier,the priority for our conventional subs is to find a platform asap that can accommodate Brahmos.It is the key advantage that the IN has over its rivals at the moment.

[tsarkar]

^^ Brahmos plug on Kilo will make it a self propelled pontoon, losing stealth & manoeuverability inherent for a SSK.

[John]

tsarkar,
Don't bother wasting your time unf. there is consensus here fitting Brahmos onto any platform solves all our problems . Lets forget that if P-3 happens to detect such a launch you can kiss the Kilo goodbye unlike a SSN, SSK cannot really maneuver out of it. Which raises the question why even both when airborne platform can do the same job lot cheaper, faster and safer.