Indian Naval Discussion

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vasu raya
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

Is it an insurmountable problem if given a small port, a barge, a large crane, a workshop to able to manufacture sub modules, a rail head to transport steel to the workshop, 20 such low intensity manufacturing places along the two coasts, financing is done through private sector involvement

the barges are used to deliver the sub modules to the major ports where assembly is completed like they were doing with the SSBN program

railways maybe a hindrance and one of these days a gas turbine loco may have to be presented by the IN to them reminding them of the freight capacity augmentation needed
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_23694 »

Singha wrote:we need to walk the talk on the infra front before aspiring even to dominate the IOR, let alone poke our nose in east asia.
well said :)
we have to be practical and take a realistic approach. My understanding is that for most of the issue we have the potential to overcome them, but our approach is that because we have been following some old policies so we should continue with them even if it is not suitable in the current scenario.
For ex, related to IAC or Subs, why can't we allow the private sector to work on them, if they are able to build them as per the Navy's requirement then fine else there loss.

Make it open / transparent and let the fittest survive at least for the defence sector since the country;s interest is paramount
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by alexis »

adityadange wrote:
Thanks vina for your post. What I want to say is if the hull is made 1 inch thicker it will add substantial weight to the ship. This may sound silly but I was under impression that warships hulls are made up of thick metal plates to protect from misile/torpedo attack (similar as of a tank although not as thick as a tank). And thicker the hull, better the protection. Also if the explosion makes bigger hole then chances are more to sink as more water gets inside the ship.
Warships are made from thinner steel plates than commercial ships. This is to reduce weight and make the ship go faster.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by nakul »

We have Klub missiles on our submarines. The new missiles extend the sea denial capabilities of the IN. Here is more info about them

Warhead: 200 kg
Range: 220 km
Speed: Subsonic; Mach 2+ for the last 20 km

More info
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/513/s3m54e11fk.jpg
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/9329/s3m54e25hg.jpg
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 634997.cms

Navy shortlists six big consultants for phase2 of karwar....9000 acre campus to come up housing 18000 people.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SaiK »

Image

Fantastico!
initially described as an embarrassing failure, appear to have actually been a success, while propulsion problems developed by the aircraft carrier are not nearly as serious as reported in the media.
Now the question:

1. Was that intentionally done
- a. chankian
- b. failed counter strategies
- c. hiding the faults, and correcting a poser.. and now, they think we can accept with defects, else they will chew us more $$$$.


however, we have other lessons here:
Traditional asbestos lining was not used at the request of Indian specialists and replacement material developed slight deformation when the boilers were run at full power, causing some firebricks to fall out. The Indian side has now agreed to the use of asbestos cardboard.
DRDO can work on some better tech, where it satisfies both asbestos advantage and firebricks put together feature where the disadvantages of using asbest
:?:

the basis of these question, is unquestionably unreliable news media and nations which are on taking advantage of Indic-ness.
Apart from the boilers, defects were also detected in some other equipment, such as refrigerators, nitrogen generators and compressors sourced from German, British, Polish and Indian suppliers who had been picked by the Indian side.
please note the quality of non-Indian components and equipment.. especially aam and DDM must know that all firang and white is not gold.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by nakul »

Now the question:

1. Was that intentionally done
- a. chankian
- b. failed counter strategies
- c. hiding the faults, and correcting a poser.. and now, they think we can accept with defects, else they will chew us more $$$$.
There was nothing wrong reported about the trials. If you notice, the trials continued even after the boiler problem was detected. The aircraft carrier could work at normal speeds and trials that do not involve max speed were successfully carried out. It shows the resilience of the carrier that even after such a breakdown it could continue to work for a month at normal speeds.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by alexis »

Traditional asbestos lining was not used at the request of Indian specialists and replacement material developed slight deformation when the boilers were run at full power, causing some firebricks to fall out. The Indian side has now agreed to the use of asbestos cardboard.
Once again, it is India who is making the sacrifice! Instead of enforcing a penalty, we are diluting the standards :x

IN sailors are going to be at the receiving end due to our "magnanimous" behaviour
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_20292 »

Singha wrote:yesterday before i knew the Ulyanovsk had been scrapped in mid 90s I started google earth and went looking for nikolayev in ukraine. just take a look yourself at the infra the big dogs built up...miles and miles of factory sheds and docks and piers along a rambling bay .... similar and even more scary probably in virginia, kola peninsula, vladivostok and now few places in Cheen as well.
in contrast our shipyards look like village level kirana shops in scale.

we need to walk the talk on the infra front before aspiring even to dominate the IOR, let alone poke our nose in east asia.
I never have been able to understand how fixed asset infrastructure works, and fixed asset investment spending works.

China is able to make humongous amount of road rail etc. and India is not. China is deep in doo doo resulting from huge fixed asset outlays but India is not.

So how can we have all of that factory sheds and the like...how do we justify all that infra spending, and do some calculations of ROI to make them happen?

How does anyone, in their right minds, decide to build a road or a network tower and recover their moneis?

Someone? Anyone?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by mody »

There is generally nothing wrong as far as asbestos is concerned in terms of performance. It is the environmental aspect and on health grounds that asbestos is not preferred anymore. If asbestos fibers are inhaled, then it can lead to lung infections and even TB in the long run.

This is a major concern for the environmentalist lobby, when we take in old ships for scrapping at our ship breaking yards.
Hence the Euros have banned the use of asbestos in such applications as insulation material, in brake linings for industrial brakes etc. But the performance of asbestos in all these applications is not bad.
Currently also in India for a lot of industrial applications where asbestos was being used before, non-asbestos based material is now being preferred.

The Indian Navy would have asked for asbestos not be used on the environmental and health grounds only, but now after encountering this problem , have reversed course and accepted the asbestos in the interest of expediting the delivery.

Wow a milestone....101 posts after 12 years of semi lurk mode on the forum.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

One news item today said that the carrier would be ready only by "next fall",though there is a 3-4 month extra time period for delivery.Right now no one is talking of any penalties until the vessel is commissioned.Another report says that the speed op the vessel even after the boiler problems were detected was 27.5kts which is pretty good,considering that the max speed is supposed to be 29/30kts.A real pity about the added delay,but the time before it is handed over must be made use of in testing the other eqpt. aboard which does not require high speed operations.It will also give our naval aviators extra time to hone their flying skills on the MIG-29Ks being inducted.

With our desi IAC-1 also being delayed by 3-4 years,the IN must think creatively as to how to leapfrog the long process of designing and building the larger IAC-2 at home.We should seriously think of acquiring the second new QE carrier being built which the RN cannot afford,which may even be finished before IAC-1 is commissioned! Though it might cost a bomb,the time saved (4-5 yrs. at least) will be invaluable and would ceratainly give a quantum leap in the IN's capabilities before 2020.

PS:Good news about the 3rd Talwar batch-2,Trikand-dock trials being completed n Russia in this report perhaps posted before.Good piece on the Brahmos.
http://indrus.in/articles/2012/09/19/th ... 17755.html
Last edited by Philip on 03 Oct 2012 16:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sum »

Another report says that the speed op the vessel even after the boiler problems were detected was 27.5kts which is pretty good,considering that the max speed is supposed to be 29/30kts.A real pity about the added delay,but the time before it is handed over must be made use of in testing the other eqpt. aboard which does not require high speed operations.It will also give our naval aviators extra time to hone their flying skills on the MIG-29Ks being inducted.
Love the way the glass becomes half full when it comes to foreign maal but becomes half empty when it is the turn of Desi maal
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

The glass is always "half full" if you take the attitude that "the vulture is a patient bird"!
With the clause ,"during the vulture's lifetime!" Too long a dose of "patience" makes one impotent,
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by nakul »

Philip wrote:The glass is always "half full" if you take the attitude that "the vulture is a patient bird"!
With the clause ,"during the vulture's lifetime!" Too long a dose of "patience" makes one impotent,
Changing suppliers from Roos to UK is like falling from oil into the fire.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

India wants Gorshkov in 6 months; says Further Delay will invite Penalty
We will tell the Russians to seriously step up the workforce at the Sevmash shipyard for the refit-repair of Vikramaditya. A leeway of three to four months is provided in the contract after the December delivery date… Beyond that, penalty clauses and liquidity damages could kick in,” said a source.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by tushar_m »

at last a strong stand by our side , we should start training our pilots & crew on board the Vikramaditya for coping with the time lost due to this incident.

even if simple sea trial is going on one need to familiarize with the equipment which take a lot of time , by sending the actual, to be deployed crew we can get a fully functional force when it enter service with our navy.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Nikhil T »

INS Viraat heads to a 5-month long refit, setback for Navy
R S Chauhan
It looks as if India's plan to have three carrier battle groups, centred around INS Viraat, INS Vikramaditya and an indigenously built aircraft carrier in Cochin shipyard, has suffered a huge setback, reports RS Chauhan

The Indian Navy will be without an operational aircraft carrier for over four months between November and March 2013 as the lone and ageing INS Viraat heads for a longer refit to Cochin very soon, top sources in the naval headquarters say.

The naval HQ has told the defence ministry that the delay in delivery of INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov) from Russia has made it imperative for the Navy to prolong the lifespan of India's lone aircraft carrier, INS Viraat.

INS Viraat, formerly HMS Hermes, a British ship, is over half a century old and has undergone several upgrades and life extensions, as India has been unable to either build its own carrier or get the Russians to deliver one for the past eight years.

With the latest schedule for a longer refit to be carried out at the Cochin Shipyard, INS Viraat will be out of action till late March-early April, the sources said.


Meanwhile, India is likely to seek clarity from Russia about the revised delivery schedule of INS Vikramaditya this week since media reports have been contradictory.

The Hindu newspaper, reporting from Moscow, said the sea trials were not a failure as initially reported. Its Moscow reporter said: 'The controversial sea trials of the INS Vikramaditya in Russia, initially described as an embarrassing failure, appear to have actually been a success, while propulsion problems developed by the aircraft carrier are not nearly as serious as reported in the media.'

'After the ship returned to the Sevmash shipyard a week ago, the Indian Navy's overseeing team, who closely monitored the sea trials, came to the conclusion that the ship had overall done extremely well and the programme of tests had been largely fulfilled.

'The results of the trials were analysed and the remaining work was detailed in a protocol signed by Vice Admiral Nadella Niranjan Kumar, controller, warship production and acquisition (CWPA).

'The main conclusion from the trials is that the INS Vikramaditya has stood the test as a full-fledged highly capable aircraft carrier converted from the former hybrid missile-cum-aviation cruiser Admiral Gorshkov. The ship displayed excellent seaworthiness and manoeuvrability and performed flawlessly during aircraft takeoff and landing. Its sophisticated radio-electronic, navigation and other systems demonstrated high efficiency and reliability,' the newspaper reported.

The Times of India, on the other hand, said: 'The delivery of the already much-delayed Vikramaditya was to take place on December 9 as per the re-revised timeline, but crippling engine-boiler malfunctions during the carrier's recent sea trials have put paid to the plan... and now, it's certain the 44,570-ton Vikramaditya will not be ready for induction anytime before end-2013 at the earliest.'

Against this backdrop, it looks as if India's plan to have three carrier battle groups, centred around INS Viraat, INS Vikramaditya and an indigenously built aircraft carrier in Cochin shipyard, has suffered a huge setback following these developments.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Good news that the problems weren't as bad as first reported and that the trials,esp. of aircraft went off very well.With the Viraat also going in for another 4+ month refit ,it underscores the inability of the MOD to think creatively and missing opportunities.The RN due to massive budget cuts have scrapped their Harriers and carrier (Ark Royal,much younger than the Viraat when acquired) decades early.These were available for a song and could've been picked up even as an amphib carrier .It would've given the IN service at least upto 2025 when IAC 1 and 2 would've arrived by then.The ship may be still available from the man who bought it for scrap value!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Brando »

X-Post:
SaiK wrote:luckily, the masala dosa making machine from desh did not fail yet.
Join the Indian Navy - Eat Dosa/Chappati at Sea!

Too bad we won't see that on any recruitment posters anytime soon. Never figured out why did they build those things anyway. What can't Indian sailors eat eggs on toast/cereal and coffee/tea the rest of the world ?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by bharath_a »

Brando wrote:X-Post:
SaiK wrote:luckily, the masala dosa making machine from desh did not fail yet.
Join the Indian Navy - Eat Dosa/Chappati at Sea!

Too bad we won't see that on any recruitment posters anytime soon. Never figured out why did they build those things anyway. What can't Indian sailors eat eggs on toast/cereal and coffee/tea the rest of the world ?
eating homely food makes you feel comfortable. us soldiers morale went up when fast food opened up in major bases in iraq.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Surya »

What can't Indian sailors eat eggs on toast/cereal and coffee/tea the rest of the world ?
oh boy

waiting for Shiv
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

by that yardstick why does US put in effort into sourcing food from mainland and even setting up McD and burger king in "green zones" and "firebases"?
just source excellent quality local rice, dry fruit and mutton and eat like the "rest of the world in that part of the world" does.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sum »

Never figured out why did they build those things anyway. What can't Indian sailors eat eggs on toast/cereal and coffee/tea the rest of the world ?
:lol: :lol:
This is what is called painting a bullseye on oneself, eps with some well known Hakims/piskologists lurking around.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

^^^


Because home food away from home is one of the most important ways of maintaining morale. That is the reason what IN cant just source food stuff from just anywhere.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SaiK »

Brando wrote:What can't Indian sailors eat eggs on toast/cereal and coffee/tea the rest of the world ?
Because we have to import both the machine and food stuff to be like the rest of the world. Why do you want IN men feel home sick? The fact that these machines are on the INS Vikramaditya means, >95% voted for it, and wants it!. I am sure, if these machines are installed on USS Truman or nimitz class, you would go like.. wow cool!.. we have now a market to export.

BTW, Masala Dosas sell like hot cakes when I make them and sell it to firangs on Indic melas in maasa. They just love it!, and get energized to take up all kind of pisko stuff. I got a USS San Juan hat by just treating one masala dosa to a benz man!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_20292 »

masala dosais are like (veg) burgers onleee....aloo inside grain samwich.

"jab tak rahega dosai mein aloo,

tab tak rahega jungle main bhaloo"
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_23858 »

Brando wrote: Too bad we won't see that on any recruitment posters anytime soon. Never figured out why did they build those things anyway. What can't Indian sailors eat eggs on toast/cereal and coffee/tea the rest of the world ?
'Not sure if its Ignorance, arrogance or sheer stupidity on your part to assume 'rest of the world' has egg on toast and cereal for BLD.... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Hell, even american soldiers in afghanistan have different diet than their buddys on mainland...for them its IEDs And pakistani bullets... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Shrinivasan »

Brando wrote:X-Post:
SaiK wrote:luckily, the masala dosa making machine from desh did not fail yet.
Never figured out why did they build those things anyway. What can't Indian sailors eat eggs on toast/cereal and coffee/tea the rest of the world ?
our friends in the newest floating rust bucket eat flied noodles and soup... not toast and Cereal...
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by nakul »

What can't Indian sailors eat eggs on toast/cereal and coffee/tea the rest of the world ?
Because they will end up being like the rest of the world.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Is Indian food so bad, that you need toast and egg and cereals, for meals??

:P
Last edited by Pratyush on 04 Oct 2012 15:35, edited 1 time in total.
Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

I think they would be served different meals including idli , dosa , apam , set dosa ,cereals ,egg , toast the menu list for breakfast lunch and dinner would be a long one :)
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

Austin wrote:Aircraft Carrier Killers - Malakhit, Bazalt, Granit, Oniks, Brahmos, Club-K

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-cm-f2JpiI
So just 3 Brahmos is needed to break the back of aircraft carrier that is quite impressive. I think the 3 Brahmos will attack from 3 different direction and total warhead of 600 kg when hit at the right place with KE would sink the carrier.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

sinking a supercarrier is tough without damage below the waterline in the key structural area near the bottom. massive internal damage though and rendering it scrap or in dock for N years.

a trio of heavy torpedoes exploding below the keel would likely cause far more structural problems while doing less internal damage imo.

if you recall Forrestal had a massive fire , but nowhere near sinking.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Any chance a Bramhos attack can expose the enriched material in reactor to the ship, that will make crew abandon ship, also these ships store a lot of munitions and Jet fuel, much more fuel and than oil burning ship for its own engines, if these storeage areas are hit , the ship will blow up pretty quick.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by vina »

Singha wrote:sinking a supercarrier is tough without damage below the waterline in the key structural area near the bottom. massive internal damage though and rendering it scrap or in dock for N years.

a trio of heavy torpedoes exploding below the keel would likely cause far more structural problems while doing less internal damage imo.

if you recall Forrestal had a massive fire , but nowhere near sinking
Just ONE torpedo amidships will sink any ship. The modern torpedoes do not smash into the side of the ship like in WWII (they knew it, but couldn't get it working reliably for the most part inWWII), but just explode below the keel, literally creating a massive bubble , followed by a jet of water (which cuts just like a water jet), that lifts the part of the ship out of the water and when the bubble collapses, the ship sags into the void. The buckling motion just snaps the ship into two.

Check out these Animation and footage torpedo


Rockets can cause massive fires and above surface damage , forcing the carrier to be writtien off (even if it is not sunk). Even in Midway, the Japanese carriers were struck by dive bombers which started uncontrollable fires and the carriers were reduced to burned out hulks which were later torpedoed by their own escorts for the most part.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

Even a partial damage or a crater atop the carrier on middle of runway will make it practically useless for any take off and landing for a long time to come making it a mission kill.

Aircraft carrier are as must as useful as tool for sea control as it is vulnerable.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

there are supposedly "classified" protection measures underwater to guard against torpedo hits and to protect vital areas like reactor zones.on a 330m long carrier with a huge flat bottom, I doubt just breaking the "keel" at one spot will sink it.....the spine is designed to flex and infact apparently flexes 3 ft up and down in heavy seas ..... if a couple vertebra or ribs get broken, the structural integrity of the rest of ship should still be intact in a huge carrier case. there will be watertight compartments and deck levels to contain damage. for DDG downward I agree one torpedo is enough.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by nakul »

The Brahmos Block II was called carrier killer for a reason. It has top down attack capability which will do a mission kill. During war, an ACC is nothing but a floating strip. Once its aircrafts are grounded (or floated), the other ships will be incredibly vulnerable to air based attacks.

We also have Dhanush as an AC killer. Inshallah Dhanush tech is incorporated into K 15 variants allowing stealthy elimination of ACs.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_20453 »

Killing an aircraft carrier and super carrier are two completely different things. Many have Carriers, only one has Super carriers, one cannot sink a super carrier and live long enough to claim victory or glory, you can atbest disable it but one can be sure of a fitting Unkil response that would leave the enemy paralysed for thousands of years if not wiped out. Besides to kill one super carrier you must knock out it's own defences i.e 90 4.5gen fighters, EW aircraft, helos armed to teeth with cutting edge eletronic sensors and surrounded by AEGIS. they do have hordes or SM-2/3, Sea Sparrows, RAM and guns, the net is very tight. The only possibility is to have a brahmos fly lo-lo-lo fired out from 120km because if the brahmos is fired at 300km, it will knocked out at high alt flight by SMs, even then we would need atleast 10 to be fired at the same time, some will be shot down, some will get through, disabling it.
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