Indian Naval Discussion

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 19 Sep 2012 03:48

Austin wrote: Also IN Admiral Suresh Mehta was on record stating for the money we paid we couldn't have got a better deal than this

But wasn't that before the Russians arm-twisted us into giving more money and delayed the delivery for several years?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 19 Sep 2012 04:54

nachiket wrote:
Austin wrote: Also IN Admiral Suresh Mehta was on record stating for the money we paid we couldn't have got a better deal than this
But wasn't that before the Russians arm-twisted us into giving more money and delayed the delivery for several years?

It was after that, basically he said even with the price increase at THAT time, vik was the best deal they could get.
For example, cavour italy's aircraft carrier (ship only) which is just greater than two thirds the size, i.e. 30000 tons costed 1.4B Euros, approx 8000 crores (aircraft complement cost extra). Even with all these arm twisting as of today Vik(45000 tons) along with aircraft component, we are at 2B $, i.e. 9000 crores. So at THAT time as well as today with even some additional moolah, as long as the ship can run its full life, it is a decent deal.

That is not to say, that russian seems to have become experts in botching things up. There was an accident on INS Chakra, now this.

Will · Post by **Will** » 19 Sep 2012 06:39

Many years back had started a thread on KeyMags - The Groshkov Saga, which ran for many years and multiple versions. Well the "Saga" continues.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 19 Sep 2012 07:12

Third Indian Frigate Undergoes Dock Trials in Russia

A Talwar class frigate being built for the Indian Navy at the Yantar Shipyard in Russia’s exclave of Kaliningrad has begun dock trials, the shipyard said.

The Trikand is the last in a series of three frigates built under a $1.6-billion contract with India. The first frigate, the Teg, was delivered to India in April 2012, while the second, the Tarkash, has completed sea trials and will be delivered in November.

“The Trikand started dock trials at the Yantar shipyard on September 15,” Yantar spokesman Sergei Mikhailov told reporters on Tuesday. “They will continue until mid-January next year.”

The sea trials of the frigate will be held in the Baltic Sea and the delivery of the warship to the Indian Navy is expected in summer 2013.

The new frigates are each armed with eight BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles.
:
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member_23785 · Post by **member_23785** » 19 Sep 2012 09:42

Kersi D wrote:I SMELL A RAT

There seems to be a conspiracy to ensure that IN does not get the AC.

Or Russians are playing dirty so that IN finally says it does not want the AC and it goes to Russian Navy, paid by us.

In that case IN can cancel the Mig 29K complement it was buying from Russia and Russian Navy can enjoy them too aboard Gorkshov. IAF too can cancel the FGFA. Let them find a new partner.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 19 Sep 2012 12:11

Virupaksha wrote: It was after that, basically he said even with the price increase at THAT time, vik was the best deal they could get.
For example, cavour italy's aircraft carrier (ship only) which is just greater than two thirds the size, i.e. 30000 tons costed 1.4B Euros, approx 8000 crores (aircraft complement cost extra). Even with all these arm twisting as of today Vik(45000 tons) along with aircraft component, we are at 2B $, i.e. 9000 crores. So at THAT time as well as today with even some additional moolah, as long as the ship can run its full life, it is a decent deal.

<snipped..>

No sir,its not $2B. Let's compare apples to apples. Since you're referring to Cavour's 1.4Bn euros cost without aircraft, let me remind you that the $2bn figure for Adm Gorshkov you quoted also does not include the Mig 29K cost.

Here's the latest figure, which by the way is likely to go up because of the additional year's worth of work, boiler equipment, trials and training.

Ship cost - $2.3 billion (source)

16 Mig-29K cost - $740 million (source)

Total = $3.04 billion. At $=Rs 50 (the average for last few years), the cost is Rs 15,400 crore. Not including cost of an additional refit for INS Viraat as also its operating costs for an extra 4 years of service. Also, not including the new drama. Not cheap by any means.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 19 Sep 2012 13:17

SNaik wrote:
aniket wrote:Is the vikramaditya being run by an Indian crew, or by the Russians ?
Russians. Captain is Igor Ryabko, former First Officer of Kuznecov.

Thanks for the quick reply. There must be an Indian observer group on board right ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Sep 2012 15:28

RajS wrote: IAF too can cancel the FGFA. Let them find a new partner.

chippanda club is okay with you? they will jump at it at copying price.. however fools they may be. India is on other extreme, being always be fooled! we are allowing ourselves in that situation by not paying attention to details in every matter that matters.

we have no understanding of capitalism nor communism ways of making others pay for the maals.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 19 Sep 2012 17:10

aniket wrote: Thanks for the quick reply. There must be an Indian observer group on board right ?

Yes, of course. There are couple of photos of the guys on board on the Web.

member_23785 · Post by **member_23785** » 19 Sep 2012 17:25

SaiK wrote:
RajS wrote: IAF too can cancel the FGFA. Let them find a new partner.
chippanda club is okay with you? they will jump at it at copying price.. however fools they may be. India is on other extreme, being always be fooled! we are allowing ourselves in that situation by not paying attention to details in every matter that matters.

we have no understanding of capitalism nor communism ways of making others pay for the maals.

I suspect the Chipanda would jump at FGFA. Two reasons 1)- Would Russia be comfortable sharing a fifth generation technology with a neighboring nation which has once stabbed in the back by aligning with US and undercutting it.
2)-Would China do that considering that it has invested millions if not billions in creating a fifth generation figther program (Off course minus the engine) just for the sake of engine(whose technology off course Russia is never going to share even with us)?

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 20 Sep 2012 19:38

Russia to demand more money to fix INS Vikramaditya

The issue is expected to be at the forefront when Russian Defence Minister Anatoly E Serdyukov visits India next month. The Russians have informed about the glitches during the sea trials of the 44,570 tonnes Kiev class aircraft carrier, rechristened as INS Vikramaditya literally meaning “Brave as Sun”, to the Indian Defence Ministry.

Sources informed The New Indian Express that the Russians are building up case for another price hike for the second hand warship. “The Russians are claiming that it was the Indian Navy that insisted on bricks insulation for the boilers rather than the traditional asbestos coating and would therefore claim more in the name of dry dock maintenance,” added the sources.

Can we bring back to India and fix it here ? may be with IAC-1 equipment's in it

kit · Post by **kit** » 20 Sep 2012 19:50

OT .. but ..China would be very much interested in getting the electronics and engines that go into PAKFA ., they don't need the planes as such.I would expect them to get at these by various 'means'

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 20 Sep 2012 19:54

I never though i will say this but its a fact , Chinese have done a great job on a Varyag , Varyag was striped down lacked engines, a rudder, much of her operating systems including electronics on top of that Chinese had Zero experience in building or operating a carrier of that size .

kit · Post by **kit** » 20 Sep 2012 20:02

hmm ..why does India gets fooled ? .. India is a nation of individuals who thinks as if they are global citizens first rather than Indians., the 'elite' bureaucracy has a good number who put themselves first.Money and honey before country.Every country has people like this ., but in India more than anywhere else. I wont go into specifics., but there is a lot lacking in the political department.

kit · Post by **kit** » 20 Sep 2012 20:07

http://www.janes.com/products/janes/def ... 1065971526

janes report that 7 of 8 boilers failed in tests

RajD · Post by **RajD** » 20 Sep 2012 20:08

Russia to demand more money to fix INS Vikramaditya

From http://idrw.org/?p=14229#more-14229.
Here they go again!!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Sep 2012 20:17

kit wrote:hmm ..why does India gets fooled ? .. India is a nation of individuals who thinks as if they are global citizens first rather than Indians., .. a lot lacking in the political department.

Yes, you have the answers there in your own words. The very frabric is wrong, i.e., global citizens are first class, and Indians and indics are second class. And this is the fundamental basis for all Indic problems with all aspects of life, from military, defence purchase to basic living and facilities. Ah why do we need this? why do we need good roads and infrastructure..we are just Indians anyway? Yes.. it applies to all threads for our 1B planet. never an OT for any thread, I would say.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 20 Sep 2012 20:30

I think its time to cool down and wait till the Techniski's take stock and do some diagnostics. Seems that the problem is not a boiler blow-up rather its about developing the full rated power as reported by different reports on the forum.

Needless to say we need to plan for contingencies including prioritizing the construction of the IAC on priority/ in sarkari language in Mission Mode. Indian defense industry in the past 5-7 years has been moving at a extremely fast pace towards creating indigenous capabilities but has still to reach the critical mass. INS Vikramaditya is clearly a investment we made before the buildup started so we need to take it to a logical conclusion which is induction of the vessel into the IN. I think if the Government and the Indian Industry were to take the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier to their heart they would be definitely able to deliver this vessel to IN within 2-3 years. This in turn will also send a important messages to folks that we can and will prevail over technical embargo's if we have to overcome them.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 20 Sep 2012 20:38

Good, the more such things happen, India will indigenise its defense industry. I am of the opinion that instead of handing out the next line of submarines to a foreign entity, we could indigenise Scorpene with Arihant know how. In the meanwhile order more Scorpenes. The faster we indigenise the less we have to put up with foreign manufacturers. Go for joint projects if we lack technology. ToT is just screwdriver tech and does not free us from the OEM.

Don · Post by **Don** » 20 Sep 2012 21:27

RajS wrote:
I suspect the Chipanda would jump at FGFA. Two reasons 1)- Would Russia be comfortable sharing a fifth generation technology with a neighboring nation which has once stabbed in the back by aligning with US and undercutting it.
2)-Would China do that considering that it has invested millions if not billions in creating a fifth generation figther program (Off course minus the engine) just for the sake of engine(whose technology off course Russia is never going to share even with us)?

Nah...they wouldn't be that stupid. How do you know if the Russian won't repeat this whole thing on other deals like the FGFA ? I respect the way the Russian does business. They are very skillful at squezzing money worth billions of dollars when they can. With friends like these who needs enemies ? I remembered them trying to pull the samething on the Chinese Il-76 deal demanding 1.5 Billion increase but the Chinese just walked away. http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/libra ... osti01.htm

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 21 Sep 2012 03:50

karan_mc wrote:Russia to demand more money to fix INS Vikramaditya

Can we bring back to India and fix it here ? may be with IAC-1 equipment's in it

We would be better off scrapping it at Alang or sinking it in Bay of Bengal as an artificial coral reef.

Vik will just continue to drain IN resources (both human and financial) without ever being an operational asset.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 21 Sep 2012 05:54

Instead of passing judgements why don't we wait till it is in service and see how good or bad turns out to be.

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 Sep 2012 08:20

Bheeshma wrote:Instead of passing judgements why don't we wait till it is in service and see how good or bad turns out to be.

Errr, how will it ever enter service till it passes all its trials and when basic understanding on pricing is done for it to be even seaworthy?

As expected, the Russkis started off again on India to foot the bill for the boiler fiasco. I expect GoI to stand firm this time and refuse to pay unlkike earlier ( due to lack of $$ and end of patience limits of all the concerned parties).

In the words of Vina-saar who kept saying this since day 1 of the deal: We have been made of a target of a classic switch and bait by the Russians.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 21 Sep 2012 09:35

I am not trying to defend the Russians knowing fully well that at times they have stuck us and at times they have helped us. Currently, they seem to be squeezing us.

However, this is something I would have to do as a seller, or I would have lost my job.

When the Ru asked us for more money for the Vik, they would have had to justify it to the detail possible. And if in the discussions, two things happened:

a) The IN asked for brick, instead of asbestos for various reasons, including reducing the additional price demand.
b) The tech specs would have then be signed off with bricks.
c) The contract would have definitely stated that any change to the tech specs and material, if entails additional costs, would be borne by us.

So at this time, though this latest request sounds unsavoury, maybe valid if a) is true. because then c) kicks in. And the russian CAG may make noises.

Now it will be a matter of negotiation between the two and the spirit therein. All dependent on the additional costs to be incurred.

1) The Ruskies decide to play good supplier and say we are buddies so ok we will not charge extra. (mind you, they will recover this in some other deal) And get the necessary approvals internally.
2) The other option is that the vodka in them will make them inflexible regarding the escalation demand.

Welcome to the world of commercial negotiations! So why get our lungis in a twist?

My boss and I always pushed for 1) above. because, see, we didn't have vodka in us.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 21 Sep 2012 10:33

Don wrote:
RajS wrote:
I suspect the Chipanda would jump at FGFA. Two reasons 1)- Would Russia be comfortable sharing a fifth generation technology with a neighboring nation which has once stabbed in the back by aligning with US and undercutting it.
2)-Would China do that considering that it has invested millions if not billions in creating a fifth generation figther program (Off course minus the engine) just for the sake of engine(whose technology off course Russia is never going to share even with us)?
Nah...they wouldn't be that stupid. How do you know if the Russian won't repeat this whole thing on other deals like the FGFA ? I respect the way the Russian does business. They are very skillful at squezzing money worth billions of dollars when they can. With friends like these who needs enemies ? I remembered them trying to pull the samething on the Chinese Il-76 deal demanding 1.5 Billion increase but the Chinese just walked away. http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/libra ... osti01.htm

Well, that China thing isn't exactly true. The original deal was too lopsided in China's favor, and once the Russians came to their senses there was no way they were gonna honor the deal. They'd be taking a massive loss, and that just wasn't gonna happen, as they can burn a deal but they can't stomach hundreds of millions of dollars of losses. China had great need for those planes, so they were willing to pay the fair price for them, which would be about twice the original deal. The problem was that the Russians simply did not have the capability to deliver those planes in a timely fashion(another complicated story), so the deal was called off. The Chinese ended up deciding to buy 5 used Belarussian IL-76's, have them overhauled in Russia, use them as a stop-gap, and focus their attention on constructing the domestic Y-20 heavy transport.

member_23844 · Post by **member_23844** » 21 Sep 2012 14:27

Indian Navy should take help from DCNS for Baracudda design TOT and equip the same with indian reactor.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 21 Sep 2012 14:30

We already getting some technologies from the Scorpene deal. Baracuda may not be open to outsiders. France is supposed to help Brazil with building an SSN. We could use French assistance in our SSN project while involving Russia in SSBN.

vina · Post by **vina** » 21 Sep 2012 15:03

a) The IN asked for brick, instead of asbestos for various reasons, including reducing the additional price demand.

Primary one being that Asbestos is a vicious carcinogen for the lungs! The IN can reconcile to it's men dying in battle, but probably not from lung cancer due to asbestos inhalation!

member_23844 · Post by **member_23844** » 21 Sep 2012 16:35

What can be the options no since ruskis are asking for more money and 2 billion have been spent on the vikramaditya.
If the project fails we should ask for 2 more nerpa class subs for a lease of 10 years.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 21 Sep 2012 16:52

Continue the trials of Vikramaditya with asbestos boilers, get them to India and then replace them with brick lined ones in Kochi since IAC-1 might be using the same

we have discussions for 50 subs, many of them nuclear powered, why not add the nuclear propulsion systems to the aicraft carriers? Even though the previous Naval cief cribbed about cost and probably limited nulcear fuel supply, technology wise they would have started now, not even waiting for the civilian side to make progress on the thorium side by building Dhruva sized research reactors

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Sep 2012 19:43

IAC-1 is using gas turbines. nobody wants to use steam turbines for big warships anymore except nuclear powered ones.

the uranium supplies we have are reserved for submarines I would think.

kit · Post by **kit** » 21 Sep 2012 19:52

once plutonium reactors come on stream it will be a very game all together.but it doesnt like far off. I think a literal energy revolution can take place in India if Shale deposit discovery and refining along with fast breeder tech comes of age in india. Well one can dream .,

.. plutonium powered Indian aircraft carriers and subs prowling the worlds oceans..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Sep 2012 20:48

Bricks, destroying trials of "Vikramaditya", made in China

Dyachkov announced that the repair will be completed in May 2013, and the deadline ship, according to preliminary data, will move to nine months. Official data on the cost of repairs were not called.

"The boilers were manufactured at the request of the Indian side in the Russian Navy used boilers, which are used as fuel oil. Indian side has made a request to use boilers that run on diesel fuel," - said Dyachkov meeting with Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, dedicated situation with the aircraft carrier.

According Djachkov work Boiler Design Bureau was conducted in the Russian Federation, and the boilers were manufactured at the Baltic Shipyard. "During the trial in the vessel wall boilers are not technically able to develop full speed. They were tested for a maximum capacity of 40%. When first entering the large capacity of up to 100% was observed partial collapse of refractory masonry in boiler furnaces," - he said.

Responding to a question Rogozin, which used materials Dyachkov said that it was "fire clay bricks made in China." "Unfortunately, the Russian production of this material has been lost," - declared the president of USC.

Aircraft carrier "Vikramaditya" where broken boilers, intend to fix by May

"According to our calculations, the estimated duration of the repair work will be from five to seven months. Works is designed to be completed in May 2013," - said Dyachkov

He reported that the ship deadline, according to preliminary data, will move to nine months. According to him, the USC has a number of proposals to the Indian side, which will allow for that. What is in question, he did not elaborate.

Top manager added that repairs already purchased the necessary materials, order a brick, selected experts for the daily work in the four boilers.

Test aircraft carrier "Vikramaditya" has revealed new problems

There are a number of mechanisms that are out of service, including set by NATO. This three chillers, nitrogen generators and a whole range of equipment. These suppliers offered the Indian side," - said Dyachkov meeting with Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin on the situation of the aircraft carrier.

As noted later Rogozin in his microblog on Twitter, defective units supplying Poland and Britain. "Installation of foreign production units are manufactured to the customer's request - specifically the Indian Navy," - he wrote, adding: "But the flight tests are successful."

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Sep 2012 21:00

so, did India told them to use chinese bricks?

jee.. I smell rat!

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 21 Sep 2012 22:52

Jesus, these effing journalists. The fireclay bricks themselves were ok, the material which was used as lining between the boiler surface and the bricks and as stick-together didn't stand the heat.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 21 Sep 2012 23:26

Suspected as much that the IAC-1 might run on gas turbines, and the HAL newsletter does state that 4 LM2500 turbines are used for it. Is there a problem using American engines in a Russian ship if done at Kochi? the retrofit of Vikramaditya at a later time can also be done at Kochi without the need to go to Russia.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Sep 2012 23:36

L&T and Tata should take note on such oppty. in the future to supply core techs.

John · Post by **John** » 22 Sep 2012 18:45

INS Makar has been commissioned

Photo: Livefist

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 22 Sep 2012 22:19

^^^
Good progress

on a different topic,
Based on the 3 stage nuclear program in the civilian domain, what is the issue with developing AHWR concept research reactor now, to benefit in future both civilian reactors and compact naval propulsion units using Thorium? the research reactor wouldn't need a full set of Fast Breeder reactors to be running, just one would do or alternatively by using designed fuel, which will be similar to what is expected out of FBRs. btw, my knowledge is at the wiki level, let me know if I am off the mark.

The NPA brigade is about bombs and not reactors I believe

If only they had opted for research reactor instead of Gorshkov

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 22 Sep 2012 23:34

On second thoughts, the 50 sub idea might be a phishing probe on an open forum since such large fleet would threaten or tax US sub resources in trying to keep track of them, so denial of reactors might also be on NPA's (a mask) agenda especially the Thorium ones since nuclear fuel isn't a constraint there anymore

Is Kudankulum related to any of this technological development path?