Indian Naval Discussion

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Kersi D
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Kersi D »

shukla wrote:X-post

The European's clearly shaken my the MMRCA and LCA engine snub and desperate not to loose again, comes an (under the belt) attempt to create an unnecessary controversy to win the MRH competition..

Indian Navy: Europe firm ‘twisting’ facts for $1bn Multi-Role Helicopter deal
Asian Age
A big controversy has hit the acquisition of 16 Multi-Role Helicopters for the Indian Navy, a deal estimated to be worth around $1 billion, with the Indian Navy accusing European vendor NH Industries (NHI) of trying to “mislead” the defence ministry, “twist” the Naval Staff Qualitative Requirements (NSQRs), “falsify” the Request for Proposal (RFP) and cause delays with “unreasonable que-ries/concerns”. Documents accessed by this newspaper show the Navy criticised the European firm after it raised doubts about the helicopter of its American rival Sikorsky. This new US-European battle for an Indian defence deal is leading to a lot of acrimony.

NHI earlier alleged Sikorsky does not meet the NSQRs for the deal, and complained to the defence ministry. The Navy has now made it clear that both NHI and Sikorsky have met the NSQRs, making them both eligible. The Navy earlier submitted its Field Evaluation Trials (FETs) report to the MoD on acquiring the anti-surface and anti-submarine MRHs. NHI, based in France and with French, German and Italian participation, pitched its NH90 helicopter against Sikorsky’s S70B. NHI earlier raised doubts about the Sikorsky helicopter on various aspects, including dual redundancy, fitment of fuel tanks, full authority automatic flight control system, fuel reserves at the end of mission, sensor functions and usage monitoring system. The Navy has, however, given the Sikorsky helicopter a clean chit.

In its final recommendations and in response to NHI’s allegations, the Navy said: “It emerges that NHI is attempting to mislead the higher authorities and cause delays... with unreasonable queries/concerns. The Indian Navy has evaluated the (NHI) NH90 and (Sikorsky) S70B helicopters, and considers both platforms meet the NSQRs specified in... the RFP.” On NHI’s queries on the Sikorsky helicopter’s “sensor functions” and “fitment of both external and internal fuel tanks”, the Navy said: “It is clearly evident that NHI have twisted the NSQR, thereby falsifying the Request for Proposal on the MRH with an aim to misleading the higher authorities MoD”. NHI had raised doubts on several other features. It said: “(The NSQR) requires no failure of single system should lead to a catastrophic failure. NHI would like to understand how this is demonstrated since the S70B does not have dual redundancy built in to all aircraft flight control systems.”
All this chest thumping when it features prominently in the Australian Department of Defence's list of 'Projects of Concern' due to engine failures and have they not forgotten the German complaints??
But we still remember that teh IN Seakings which were "grounded" after we burst a few N crackers !!!!!

K
Snehashis
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Snehashis »

Kersi D, after the 98' patakhas there was a new procurement policy envisaged by George uncle. It required warehousing spare needed for five years of operation within desh. Dont know if it is still followed. But the recent higher procurement cost from unkil seems to indicate that. Some new innovations adopted by the army to maintain such huge amount of spares were reported in The Statesman that time. And our forces always try to increase longevity of the product thus require fewer spares than the western counterparts ( i mean uropeans/khans not ....).
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SNaik »

Fan-art by diletant2010:

Image
Singha
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

the indian rule in khmer, srivijaya et al cannot have been through the use of rowboats to cross the bay of bengal and south china sea.

arikamedu near pondicherry was a port of trade with rome from long before the cholas. I am sure from before those time onwards we had the shipbuilding tech to cross the arabian sea, reach into the red sea and across the bay of bengal for sure. some of it still survives in the wooden dhow makers in the west coast iirc.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Prasad »

There have been tons of old rotten ships excavated by the ASI and history professor teams all over the TN coast. They have been plying the seas for thousands of years to rome and arabia. Its not all out of thin air you know.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by rgsrini »

Here is a good website containing a lot of information about Chola Navy, its structure, its rank, its campaigns, vessels and a whole lot of other interesting information etc. It also gives a lot of references if people are interested to explore further.

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Chola_Navy

Here is another one that talks about what happened to the records, besides other things.
http://www.sangam.org/2007/10/Shipping.php

Hopefully, one day our kids will read about all this in our history books. Otherwise they will continue to look for excellence and professionalism exclusively outside India.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Rupesh »

link
Indian scientists are one step away from identifying and quantifying Gas Hydrates, described as the energy of the future and present in large quantities in Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean.

A Remotely Operated Vehicle (ROV) developed by the scientists of Chennai-based National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT) has proved that it can undertake missions up to 6,000 meters to the sea bottom and identify gas hydrates and poly metallic nodules.
“The ROV fitted with scientific payloads like sensors, and sonar instruments could identify gas hydrates and poly metallic nodules in the bottom of the sea.On April 18, 2010, we unfurled the Indian tri colour at a depth of 6000 meters in the Central Indian Ocean Basin Region, 1000 miles off Kanyakumari,” MA Atmanand, director, NIOT, told DNA. He said the mission was unofficially termed Samudrayaan. The scientists were honoured with the prestigious National Geo Science Awardfor this breakthrough.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

Srivijaya tried to be the pakistan of its time - using strategic location and extending moral support to the pirate clans!

nice to read about the Cholas....seems very open minded and proactive rulers who incorporated whatever advances they could lay in from arab and chinese sources into their own inventory and tech base...a true sign of a trading and oceanic mentality.

TN's long and magnificent traditions in metal work survive to this day not just in bronze statuary and such but in the vast number of metal working and machine tools industries in the industrialized towns of the state.
Last edited by Singha on 23 Feb 2012 11:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Klaus »

^^^ Singha ji, not to forget Socotra in that list, i.e Sukha-dhara dweepa. With reference to ship-building tech.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

if I had my demands met, IAF C17s would be nose to tail in Socotra AFB already.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Kanson »

Singha wrote:the indian rule in khmer, srivijaya et al cannot have been through the use of rowboats to cross the bay of bengal and south china sea.

arikamedu near pondicherry was a port of trade with rome from long before the cholas. I am sure from before those time onwards we had the shipbuilding tech to cross the arabian sea, reach into the red sea and across the bay of bengal for sure. some of it still survives in the wooden dhow makers in the west coast iirc.
Actually we can see references of Cholas in Ramayana. Cholas, Srilanka, Ramayan characters and Srirangam temple in South India are connected. They are very good in administration. They conducted elections as we do now and the society is more open comparable to current stds with all values. Heck, they even had equivalent of Valentine's day. (If my info is right)

Not only Cholas others who ruled peninsular India were also good in maritime activities. Cholas excelled others.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by kit »

For comparison the chinese submersible Jiaolong undersea craft – named after a mythical sea dragon – reached 5,057 metres below sea level in a test dive in international waters of the northeastern Pacific.It was a manned mission.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by rgsrini »

^^
Actually we can see references of Cholas in Ramayana
I have heard about this as well, but have never seen any actual proof myself. I am not sure how this reference is possible though. Chola reigned from 300 BC to 1279 AD. Ramayana is supposed to have happened roughly arond 5000 BC.

This could very well be one of the efforts to post date and confuse Indian History by motivated Britishers.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Can we move tangential historical references to the history thread please? We are more concerned about the In today and the challenges it faces.

Now the Chakra is expected to arrive in March,just around the corner and when she arrives we will have more (offical) details about the sub hopefully.She will from latest reports be based at Vizag which has turned out to be the IN's nuclear sub HQ,with the building of ATVs there as well.Sev. earlier reports indicated that a new sub base to house in particular the N-subs in particular,as the port was getting very congested,and SSBNs require complete sanitisation from merchant marine operations,which would impinge upon their ingress and egress movements,news of the matter in recent times has been lacking.Is there any further news about the status Rambili,etc.?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

imo chakra arrival is when diving sea trials would begin in earnest for the Arihant.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Will »

Wonder when they will start to base submarines at Seabird. After the second phase is completed or the third?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Austin wrote:Russian submarine "Nerpa" will arrive in India on March 30-31 - source
We are awaiting the arrival of the submarine to India on March 30-31," - said the source. According to him, the boat has already gone on a journey, she arrives at the port of Visakhapatnam. "Part of the way the boat will go on the surface," - said the official.
8) Want to know only one thing. Which part of the way will this sub remain on the surface?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

near hainan? :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by pgbhat »

India wants EEZ out of war zone list
India will make a fresh appeal before the London-based Joint War Committee, a body of insurance underwriters, to exclude India’s Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) from the war zone notification as there have been no piracy incidents in Indian waters for the last nine months.

The Navy has sanitised the country’s EEZ. There have been no piracy-related incidents over the last three quarters and India is keen to see that its waters up to 78 degree East are excluded from the war zone notification.
Exclusion of India’s EEZ from the war zone has implications on premiums on insurance cover. More importantly, it has a security angle to it. Once within the war zone list, ships plying the Indian Ocean and Arabian Sea will hug the Indian coast for safety from perceived threats.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Will »

Anyone heard anything further on the RFP's for the second submarine line. Been ages since there has been any news on the same.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Tanaji »

pgbhat wrote:India wants EEZ out of war zone list
India will make a fresh appeal before the London-based Joint War Committee, a body of insurance underwriters, to exclude India’s Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) from the war zone notification as there have been no piracy incidents in Indian waters for the last nine months.

The Navy has sanitised the country’s EEZ. There have been no piracy-related incidents over the last three quarters and India is keen to see that its waters up to 78 degree East are excluded from the war zone notification.
Exclusion of India’s EEZ from the war zone has implications on premiums on insurance cover. More importantly, it has a security angle to it. Once within the war zone list, ships plying the Indian Ocean and Arabian Sea will hug the Indian coast for safety from perceived threats.
This has a slim to none chance of happening. The British groups like Lloyds make a tidy sum out of the business of actually paying ransom as "convenience" fees, when it is paid to Somali warlords. Add to the fact that most of the times insurers insist on using British services since they are a part of the old boy network and they pay rather than play hardball. All in all, its a tidy business for them.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

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Kersi D
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Kersi D »

Singha wrote:near hainan? :mrgreen:
aditya
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by aditya »

From Coast Guard website...

http://indiancoastguard.nic.in/IndianCo ... /COMCG.htm
The Inspector General is married to Mrs. Harkiran Basra, They have 01 daughter and 01 son.:-?
Guess this one fails the "Chinese room" test in Artificial Intelligence... :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Roperia »

Update on Medium Range Maritime Reconnaissance (MRMR) -

1. necessity for procuring accepted
2. requirement for six aircraft, upped by three, with an option for additional aircraft.
3. Request for Proposal (RFP) to be issued soon.

India approves 9 maritime patrol aircraft buy

Govt nod for $1bn Navy plane deal


Gurus, why do we have P-8I and Airbus in this?

8 P-8I contract was inked for $2.1 billion, and cost of of six Airbus aircraft for IAF refueler tanker contest was estimated at $1 billion (plus latter will incur additional charges for the reconnaissance equipment). How will we justify higher off-the-shelf cost plus there obvious higher operational cost if we go fro these giants?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by srai »

Arun Roperia wrote:Update on Medium Range Maritime Reconnaissance (MRMR) -

1. necessity for procuring accepted
2. requirement for six aircraft, upped by three, with an option for additional aircraft.
3. Request for Proposal (RFP) to be issued soon.

India approves 9 maritime patrol aircraft buy

Govt nod for $1bn Navy plane deal


Gurus, why do we have P-8I and Airbus in this?

8 P-8I contract was inked for $2.1 billion, and cost of of six Airbus aircraft for IAF refueler tanker contest was estimated at $1 billion (plus latter will incur additional charges for the reconnaissance equipment). How will we justify higher off-the-shelf cost plus there obvious higher operational cost if we go fro these giants?
It's actually not the P-8I on offer for this MRMR RFP. Boeing is offering "diet" P-8:
US defense major Boeing will be pitching a ‘diet’ version of the P-8 Poseidon aircraft in response to the Request for Information (RFI) issued by the Indian Navy for Medium Range Maritime Reconnaissance (MRMR) Aircraft, due by the end of the year, next week.

Boeing has already begun work on the first of eight P-8I Long Range Maritime Reconnaissance aircraft to be supplied to the Indian Navy, in a deal concluded in the beginning of 2009 at a cost of US $ 2.1 billion.

Company sources told StratPost that even though the derivative proposed for the MRMR RFI will look the same as the P-8I and be based on the 737 platform, it will have smaller tanks and a shorter range and will only have surface warfare capability. The P-8I is capable of both surface as well as sub-surface warfare.

The RFI also asks vendors if the aircraft can carry out electronic intelligence gathering and counter-measures, besides maritime patrol and search and rescue within an operational envelope of 350 nautical miles or almost 650 kilometers, as well as a patrol endurance of at least three and a half hours. It also specifies a requirement that the aircraft be capable of carrying at least two anti-ship missiles and a jamming pod.

As with the P-8I, the navy has specified in the RFI that certain pieces of equipment must be indigenous, like, IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) Interrogator with Secure Mode, MSS Terminal – BFE, Datalink and Speech Secrecy Equipment and vendors must indicate their commitment to integrate this equipment into the aircraft.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Raja Bose »

Was this filed in a hurry? Typos in the title (Its Pearl Harbor-Hickham) and grammatical errors in the text:
“rescue and salvage training assets are more advanced than those the Indian navy has access to,” Navy Chief Warrant Officer Randy E. Duncan, MDSU One’s diving and salvage officer had said during Salvex 2009.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Roperia »

srai wrote: It's actually not the P-8I on offer for this MRMR RFP. Boeing is offering "diet" P-8:
Company sources told StratPost that even though the derivative proposed for the MRMR RFI will look the same as the P-8I and be based on the 737 platform, it will have smaller tanks and a shorter range and will only have surface warfare capability. The P-8I is capable of both surface as well as sub-surface warfare.
Thank you srai ji!

It seems that it'll have lesser capabilities than the P-8i Neptune and that will decrease its initial cost. I was just wondering that the off-the-shelf and operational cost of 737 will still be more than what Navy might have envisaged for their MPA program.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by NRao »

Arun Roperia wrote: 8 P-8I contract was inked for $2.1 billion, and cost of of six Airbus aircraft for IAF refueler tanker contest was estimated at $1 billion (plus latter will incur additional charges for the reconnaissance equipment). How will we justify higher off-the-shelf cost plus there obvious higher operational cost if we go fro these giants?
Where did you get that from?

TIA.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

Airbus has no current MPA. the A321 MPA proposal found no buyers.

if we go with P8I-Lite the advantage is , later as operational needs dictate they can be fitted with larger tanks and missing eqpt upto P8I std and supplement the original lot, while other a/c take over coastal patrol role. we should ask boeing to leave behind all the electrical power, fuel tanks and racks of the p8i as-is in the proposal though. we will just fill up with less fuel
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Roperia »

NRao wrote:
Arun Roperia wrote: cost of of six Airbus aircraft for IAF refueler tanker contest was estimated at $1 billion
Where did you get that from?

TIA.
NRao ji,

I took the cue from defenseindustrydaily.com's archive of India’s Aerial Tanker Competition

Under the heading, India’s New Tankers: Enter Airbus, it states
The A330’s is a much more expensive base airplane, with commercial costs reported at over $150 million
The wiki puts the unit cost a little higher at $200 million.

Actually, I just realized that it is A319 that is competing for the MPA and NOT A330, which is competing for Aerial tanker competition. The unit cost of A319 is $80 million a piece so that will work out to be around $720 million and leave some cash for procuring reconnaissance equipment.

MY BAD! Thank you for pointing it out!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

yeah...A330 for MPA role would be a impressive sight though...could likely carry 24 harpoons/LWT in multiple bomb bays and another 8 under the wings.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

There are several other options,other than a Boeing or Airbus wide-bodied jetmwhich would work out cheaper.The problem with the jets is that most of ASW work is done at lower alts. and slower speed.Operating under these parameters puts a strain upon the airframe of aitrcraft meant to fly at higher cruising alts.,extra fuel burn,plus ASW torpedoes have to have special wing kits attached when dropped from hgher alts.This is why the USN's P-8s do not have a MAD tailboom,though specified for IN aircraft,as they have to fly low and slow.SAAB and Enbrarer are the most likely front runners here.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_22906 »

A newbie question - how many aircrafts are allocated per IN fighter squadrons? Do these # vary if they are deployed on a carrier? From a tactics point of view, would the # be different if they are attack aircrafts Vs. air superiority aircrafts?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

Antony sees Chinese shipping bypassing Indian blockade
One morning in 1999, the tiny Canadian village of Tuktoyaktuk on the Arctic Ocean awoke to a surprise. Parked off the coast was a Chinese icebreaker ship, the Xue Long, mocking Ottawa’s pretensions of control over its northern waters. China is not even amongst the eight Arctic countries — Russia, Finland, Sweden, Norway, the US (Alaska), Iceland, Denmark (Greenland) and Canada itself — that claim the Arctic’s fabled hydrocarbon reserves, and the rapidly opening Arctic shipping lanes. But Beijing knows that global warming is melting the Arctic ice cap; and it is readying to exploit this, both commercially and militarily.

This growing capability threatens Indian strategy in a war with China. Defence analysts point to India's two-fold strategy: defending the land border in the north with the army and the air force; while using the Indian Navy to block China’s commercial and military shipping in the Indian Ocean. India’s coastal airfields, especially in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, and its proximity to the choke points of Malacca and Sunda in southeast Asia and the Straits of Hormuz and Aden in West Asia will allow the Indian Navy to impose a strangling economic blockade on China.

But this is not possible if Chinese shipping transits through the Arctic routes, which bypass the Indian Ocean. On Monday, at an international maritime seminar in New Delhi, Defence Minister A K Antony expressed concern, saying: “The possible melting of the polar ice caps will have tectonic consequences for our understanding of what maritime domains constitute ‘navigable’ oceans of the world. Specific to Asia and the Indian Ocean Region, there may be a need to reassess concepts like chokepoints and critical sea lines of communication (SLOCs).”
:
:
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by mikehurst »

^^^^^^ Well people, submarines have become so much more central to Indian sea denial strategies, vis-a-vis China. that or an Anzac type alliance with the Arctic states. A round the year patrol and presence, la cold war era US-USSR naval routine, will now become essential, along with specialisation in polar war peculiarities. the Only other thing we might do, is obtain a base, in the vicinity of Vladivostok, and build it up like Guam.

Mike.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

^ lets secure the IOR first...a tall order given its vastness.

i dont think we have the resources to fight a polar war and hit the new artic trade routes between PRC, western europe and n.america anytime in my lifetime for sure.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Well,the polar route is becoming a reality now,with the Russians in pole position to benefit from.Finally Russia will have "warm water ports"! Good of AKA to be so prescient. However,for the PLAN,all is not hunky-dory for it.It still has to pass through many chokepoints and run the gauntlet if used, dominated by Russia,the US and NATO nations.

Now Oz is doing some soul-searching about the capability of its Collins' class subs,here by its very own MD & CEO of the ASC,which built the Collins,Hans Ohff.His illuminating view is worth a hard look given the requirement for the In for a follow on sub design for the second line.Ohff says that for Oz,which has similar blue-water operational requirements as the IN,a sub of 3500t is needed.Read the full report.
The future submarine should weigh about 3500 tonnes, come with air independent propulsion, the latest hull shape, engine technology and sensor suite.

Mr Ohff said the new vessels should be based on a current European design, such as a German HDW 214, and could be built in Australia for about $1.5 billion per vessel.

Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-new ... z1neB27C1I


Xcpt:
Sinking feeling: our subs 'outdated'
David Ellery
February 28, 2012

HMAS Collins transits through Cockburn Sound at sunrise.

HMAS Collins transits through Cockburn Sound at sunrise. Photo: Supplied

Australia's Collins class submarines would almost certainly be blown out of the water if they were sent into action against the modern submarines that will be operating in the region from the 2020s, says the man who built them.

Hans Ohff, the original managing director and chief executive officer of the Australian Submarine Corporation, told The Canberra Times claims the vessels could be kept operational until 2035 are absurd.

Mr Ohff oversaw the delivery of the six Collins class boats between 1996 and 2003.
Advertisement: Story continues below

He also says current Australian Submarine Corporation chief executive Steve Ludlam's recent claim the existing boats could be kept operational without new engines is a flight of fancy.

The managing director and chief executive officer of the Australian Submarine Corporation from 1978 to 1992 and the chairman of Australian Submarine Corporation's engineering services until 2002, Mr Ohff said while the Collins was brilliant in its day, the 1980s design had since been overtaken by three new generations of submarines.

''I am very proud of what we achieved [with Collins] but if one of those went up against a modern submarine such as a German HDW 209 or 214, I would rather be in them,'' he said. ''By 2035 you might just as well stay in port - you'd get blown out of the water [if you put to sea].''

Mr Ohff backs a ''military-off-the-shelf solution'' to be developed in partnership with a European submarine company. If the future submarines can't be built in Adelaide for less than $1.5 billion each they should be built overseas.

Australia's most successful submarines, the O-Boats that were in service from 1967 until 2000, were a classic ''military-off-the-shelf solution'' (see graphic).

Mr Ohff likened trying to keep Collins's notoriously unreliable diesels in operation for another 23 years to maintaining a vintage car.

''Collins doesn't have the diesels it should have had from the start; it [the engines] aren't a good fit for a submarine,'' he said. ''You could run the diesels for another 100 years but they are never going to be the best solution - they will always be less quiet and less reliable than they should be. It wouldn't be efficient.'' He poured cold water on the current push by the Australian Submarine Corporation, Defence Minister Stephen Smith and Defence Materiel Minister Kim Carr and a Defence faction to keep Collins alive and well until 2035 to allow the development of an ''evolved Collins'' that would be designed and built in Adelaide.

Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-new ... z1ne9i83Gk
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