Indian Naval Discussion

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alexis
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by alexis »

We should go for turboprop solutions for MRMPA. Going for the best without any thought of operational expenditure could land us in trouble. Looking at our aircraft acquisitions in IAF and IN, i am worried about a big jump in opex (esp considering high petroleum costs) which can be a problem if our country finds itself in a recession.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by vic »

I think that something based on turboprop C295, C27, ATR72 even modified C-130 or refurbised P-3s make better sense
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by koti »

Singha wrote:^ lets secure the IOR first...a tall order given its vastness.

i dont think we have the resources to fight a polar war and hit the new artic trade routes between PRC, western europe and n.america anytime in my lifetime for sure.
Given the pace of PLAN piercing into IOR, a strategy based on purely defensive setup will not suffice. We should be able to deter them from escalating any situation and forcing our govt to back off each and every time.

More then Voldivostok, a base in northern Indonesia or southern Philippines will be more pragmatic IMO.

It need not be an active naval base with subs and warships in which case the cost of setting up will be enormous both political and monetary , it can be a naval air station housing naval research AC peace time and capable of handling LRMPA/ TU22M3 types of aircraft when the need arises.

It can give us enormous leverage during hostilities. With a base in these locations, IN can effectively target the advancing PLAN fleets and also threaten the important urban targets of Eastern China.

Shanghai, Nanjing will be at a distance of 3000km and Guangzhoun, Hainan at 2500km.
If we manage to put up some good diplomatic maneuvering like sharing data with Aus, we may have a relatively easy setup for ourselves.
Last edited by koti on 28 Feb 2012 12:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

I agree....always its better to take war into south and east china sea. these areas are allegedly quite shallow with mean depth of 75m onlee (barring a few trench areas), and hence unsuitable for large SSN.

sounds like a place where the new U218 design could help out.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by anand_sankar »

It always pisses me off that the GOI doesn't give a damn about good PR work for the armed forces.

Looks like the Indian Navy has been the first responder to the Costa Allegra crisis near Madagascar. We have to learn from the BBC that an IN aircraft is the first to take pictures of the stricken cruise liner.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17186829

Look at how the US/UK go to town when they do a rescue or help with one!

Hats off to the IN crew who got the first pics of ship. I'm sure there are plenty of relived friends and families of the passengers thanking them!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

that location north of madagascar is way off indian coast and we supposedly have only a sigint base there. do we have planes with range in maldives or mauritius or it was a Tu142 bear reaching out from tambaram itself!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

that location north of madagascar is way off indian coast and we supposedly have only a sigint base there. do we have planes with range in maldives or mauritius or it was a Tu142 bear reaching out from tambaram itself!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

If we did not have any aircraft based in the region,Mauritius,etc.,then only a TU-142,which can fly to S.Africa and back without needing refuelling,from Arkonam or Dabolim,has taken the pics.The stupendous reach and endurance of the aircraft,surpassing any other type of LRMP around the globe,is why we must preserve the aircraft in IN service for as long as possible,with upgrades when needed.Russia has many more Bears,IL-38s and dozens of TU-22Ms mothballed,in pefect condition,should we ever require a few additional aircraft in the future.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Snehashis »

Singha wrote:I agree....always its better to take war into south and east china sea. these areas are allegedly quite shallow with mean depth of 75m onlee (barring a few trench areas), and hence unsuitable for large SSN.

sounds like a place where the new U218 design could help out.
The Type-216 is a double hull concept to meet Australian demand for a ocean going sub. How effective it will be in littoral warfare is another matter. Aren't single hull subs fare better than the double hulled one in the littoral ?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Roperia »

Self delete! Sorry for posting this in the wrong thread!
Last edited by Roperia on 29 Feb 2012 09:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Will »

Snehashis wrote:
Singha wrote:I agree....always its better to take war into south and east china sea. these areas are allegedly quite shallow with mean depth of 75m onlee (barring a few trench areas), and hence unsuitable for large SSN.

sounds like a place where the new U218 design could help out.
The Type-216 is a double hull concept to meet Australian demand for a ocean going sub. How effective it will be in littoral warfare is another matter. Aren't single hull subs fare better than the double hulled one in the littoral ?
Get more scorpenes if littoral warfare is the priority. But India needs more ocean going subs if we want to have some level of control over the oceans lanes of traffic. The U216 should be seriously explored for the ocean going role.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

if the details in this german publication is correct the U216 is definitely a single hull sub
http://www.marineforum.info/html/u216.html

ofcourse it is a biggish single hull sub for good endurance and weapons load. there is no point showing up for the china sea party with a scrawny load of 12 weapons in the torpedo room and a prayer.

still, if Kilos can operate for PLAN there and 688 SSNs sneak in close to spy on PLAN units, so can this baby.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Snehashis »

We need a single hull design with more punch and longer leg than the current Scorpenes in making. Also if one have to shell out $1.5b per conventional sub then a Barracuda type nuke boat would be a far better option.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Snehashis »

Singha, Navy Recognition says that it is a double hulled design. Which one to believe ?


http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... iew&id=264
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by koti »

No Conventional sub is good for Ocean going ops. The bigger a SSK gets, the closer its costs associated get to a SSKN. Its better we standardize something like Scorpene/Amur for SSK and Arihant Class for SSKN/BN for the current decade.
Effectively satisfying Littoral + Oceangoing requirements.

The Bigger SSBN's that we may aspire to build will not necesszarily be ocean going as they will be limited for retaliatory N-strike role.

We should see something like 5-6 Arihant class subs for Oceanic attack roles.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

I would go with the german mag.

afaik every western SSK/SSN at present is single hull
other than Kilo and their SSBN/Akula, other Russian subs were also single hull.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by koti »

Snehashis wrote:Singha, Navy Recognition says that it is a double hulled design. Which one to believe ?
All the sources I know specify it as a double hull design too. Type 214 is a single hull design.
Last edited by koti on 28 Feb 2012 16:08, edited 1 time in total.
Snehashis
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Snehashis »

NP Singha.

+1 to koti.

To my untrained eye the cutaway / see through models looks like a double hulled one. But again $1.5b for a conventional sub is too much.
5b for a conventional sub is

http://www.marineforum.info/assets/images/216-2.jpg

http://www.marineforum.info/assets/images/216-4.jpg
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Nick_S »

Singha wrote:that location north of madagascar is way off indian coast and we supposedly have only a sigint base there. do we have planes with range in maldives or mauritius or it was a Tu142 bear reaching out from tambaram itself!
If you look at that clip about 15 seconds in, you can see engine/propellers. The propellers are not the unique counter rotating type of the Bears, so its either a Dornier stationed at Seychelles or the Il-38s.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by anand_sankar »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17186829

It is the lone IN Dornier based in the Seychelles on anti-piracy duty that has come to the rescue! Now makes a case for basing a couple more aircraft there.

Interesting, for the nutjob that the Italian marines pulled off 14 miles off Kerala, look who comes to the rescue of a Italian cruise ship in the deep ocean. There is a reason it is called the Indian ocean!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Eric Leiderman »

We should build 6 more scorp's , we have invested in the infrastructure, progessively reduce forgien content.
By the time we actually get the 2nd line of subs it will be 10-12 years , we need these boats soon to keep our numbers up.
Three Ariahant class confirmed is great , we still need smaller boats for our litorials now and in large nos. We need to get the production cost of the scorps down, and churn them out.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Misraji »

Singha wrote: other than Kilo and their SSBN/Akula, other Russian subs were also single hull.
Singhaji, from what I remember, on the contrary, most of their subs have always been double-hulled ...
Victor, Tango, Echo, Juliet, Romeo, Mike, Foxtrot, Charlie ....

The notable exception has been the Alfa class.

--Ashish
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Kapil »

DORNIER!

It must be the INAS 310 Cobra detachment.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Cosmo_R »

There is no India-Italy thread and this happened in IOR so here goes:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 077976.cms

"India and Italy on Tuesday struggled to overcome differences on the case of two Italian naval guards held in Kochi for killing two Indian fishermen, amid indications that Rome might consider an out-of-court settlement to resolve the issue that has evoked public opinion in both countries. "


So how exactly (if this is true) is it different from the blood money Raymond Davis affair in TSP?

Would the eyetalians agree to blood money if the shoe was on the other foot?

Does GoI even consider Indian lives and justice system worth the effort?

If this is true, GoI are no better than the pakis. Shame on the eyetalians and shame on GoI. End of 'superpower' fantasies
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Where was our latter-day "empress of India...sorry the Congress Party" born? It explains all.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

the two sea bandits have a cover story in latest india today mag. the caption reads their act has led to "split between church and state in kerala"

why the church should concern itself with this matter is not explained...truly those who are fishing in this pond answer to distant CEOs
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Nikhil T »

Cosmo_R wrote:There is no India-Italy thread and this happened in IOR so here goes:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 077976.cms

"India and Italy on Tuesday struggled to overcome differences on the case of two Italian naval guards held in Kochi for killing two Indian fishermen, amid indications that Rome might consider an out-of-court settlement to resolve the issue that has evoked public opinion in both countries. "


So how exactly (if this is true) is it different from the blood money Raymond Davis affair in TSP?

Would the eyetalians agree to blood money if the shoe was on the other foot?

Does GoI even consider Indian lives and justice system worth the effort?

If this is true, GoI are no better than the pakis. Shame on the eyetalians and shame on GoI. End of 'superpower' fantasies
I'm 100% with you. If that happens, we're no better. Free the marines if you lose the case, but don't wimp out and do blood money in any case. Its not that we're living off aid.

Btw, wasn't the blood money thing a part of the Shariah law? I'm wondering what provision of IPC allegedly allows people to pay for the crimes and get away with it.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

This site has good details on Vikramaditya ( history etc ) and some unseen pictures (use translator )

http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-368.html
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Aditya G »

There cannot be any out of court settlement when murder is the charge
Cosmo_R wrote:There is no India-Italy thread and this happened in IOR so here goes:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 077976.cms

"India and Italy on Tuesday struggled to overcome differences on the case of two Italian naval guards held in Kochi for killing two Indian fishermen, amid indications that Rome might consider an out-of-court settlement to resolve the issue that has evoked public opinion in both countries. "


So how exactly (if this is true) is it different from the blood money Raymond Davis affair in TSP?

Would the eyetalians agree to blood money if the shoe was on the other foot?

Does GoI even consider Indian lives and justice system worth the effort?

If this is true, GoI are no better than the pakis. Shame on the eyetalians and shame on GoI. End of 'superpower' fantasies
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Quite true,we'll soon have a massive queue in our courts of murderers all quoting from the "Italian" deal,wanting to get off for a few paltry rupees.The Kerala people should physically if need be,resist this insidious "Roman" version of the Saudi Sharia finding its way into Indian legal practice,by surrounding the vessel and preventing it from ever leaving Indian waters.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

atma
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by atma »

You probably mean "Collision"
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by shiv »

atma wrote:
You probably mean "Collision"
Well the two ships colluded with each other to come into forceful physical contact at sea no? It may reek of conspiracy to you but conspiracies are possible. :D
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Sid »

Philip wrote:Quite true,we'll soon have a massive queue in our courts of murderers all quoting from the "Italian" deal,wanting to get off for a few paltry rupees.The Kerala people should physically if need be,resist this insidious "Roman" version of the Saudi Sharia finding its way into Indian legal practice,by surrounding the vessel and preventing it from ever leaving Indian waters.
[off topic] Philip, people can still get away with murder in India if they have enough money and power.

And here we are talking about million dollar out-of-court settlement and whole Italian Gov pressure. Remember Purulia weapon drop case.

Lets not attach nation's pride with this case.

P.S. I am not saying this is good, but stating what can be an obvious outcome of current events.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Sid,true.However,if we are always seen as a soft state,compromising in incidents like this,our ability to walk the talk in international disputes and fora will be severely diminished.Look at the way in which even the US has denied the release of Jonathan Pollard,who spied for Israel.Pollard has recd. massive support from various Israeli govts.,Jewish organisations in the US,streets have been named after him inIsrael, but the US govt. has not budged an inch and Pollard still serves his term of Life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

Xcpts:
In addition to the release requests by the Israeli government, there has been a long running public campaign to free Pollard. The organizers include the Pollard family, his ex-wife, Anne, and Jewish groups in the US and Israel. The campaign's main points claim that Pollard spied for an ally instead of an enemy, that his sentence was out of proportion when compared to similar crimes, and that the US failed to live up to its plea bargain.[54][55] Some Israeli activists compared President Bush to Hamas and Hezbollah leaders who have taken Israeli soldiers prisoner.[56][57]
[edit] Pro-Pollard efforts
An Israeli billboard comparing former US President Bush to Hamas and Hezbollah leaders Ismail Haniyah and Hassan Nasrallah (shown left and right of Bush respectively). The people in blue text were taken prisoner by these groups. Bush is shown above Pollard's name, in red.

Pollard's supporters argue that his sentence was excessive. Although Pollard pleaded guilty as part of a plea bargain for himself and his wife, he was shown no leniency and was given the maximum sentence with the exception of death, because he allegedly broke the terms of that plea agreement even before the sentence was handed down.[58]

The issue of his imprisonment has sometimes arisen amidst Israeli domestic politics.[59] Benjamin Netanyahu has been particularly vocal in lobbying for Pollard's release, visiting Pollard in prison in 2002.[3][60] Netanyahu raised the issue with President Bill Clinton during the Wye River peace talks in 1998.[61] In his autobiography, Clinton wrote that he was inclined to release Pollard, but the objections of U.S. intelligence officials was too strong:

For all the sympathy Pollard generated in Israel, he was a hard case to push in America; he had sold our country's secrets for money, not conviction, and for years had not shown any remorse. When I talked to Sandy Berger and George Tenet, they were adamantly opposed to letting Pollard go, as was Madeleine Albright.[62]

Alan Dershowitz has been among Pollard's high-profile supporters, both in the courtroom as a lawyer and in various print media. Characterizing the sentence as "excessive," Dershowitz writes in an article reprinted in his bestselling book Chutzpah!, "As an American, and as a Jew, I hereby express my outrage at Jonathan Pollard's sentence of life imprisonment for the crime to which he pleaded guilty."[63] Dershowitz writes:

[E]veryone seems frightened to speak up on behalf of a convicted spy. This has been especially true of the Jewish leadership in America. The Pollards are Jewish... The Pollards are also Zionists, who--out of a sense of misguided "racial imperative" (to quote Jonathan Pollard)--seem to place their commitment to Israeli survival over the laws of their own country... American Jewish leaders, always sensitive to the canard of dual loyalty, are keeping a low profile in the Pollard matter. Many American Jews at the grass roots are outraged at what they perceive to be an overreaction to the Pollards' crimes and the unusually long sentence imposed on Jonathan Pollard.[63]

The Jerusalem City Council has also acted in support of Pollard, changing the name of a square near the official prime minister's residence from Paris Square to Freedom for Jonathan Pollard Square.[64]

Pollard has at times claimed that he provided only information that, at the time, he believed was vital to Israeli security and that was being withheld by the Pentagon, in violation of a 1983 Memorandum of Understanding between the two countries regarding the sharing of vital security intelligence. According to Pollard, this included data on Soviet arms shipments to Syria, Iraqi and Syrian chemical weapons, the Pakistani atomic bomb project, and Libyan air defense systems.[65]
[edit] Official requests for clemency

Yitzhak Rabin was the first Israeli prime minister to ask for the release of Pollard, requesting US President Bill Clinton to pardon him in 1995.[66] Among the many requests for Pollard's release was one at the 1998 Wye River conference, where Netanyahu recalls, "if we signed an agreement with Arafat, I expected a pardon for Pollard".[1][28] Of his meeting with Netanyahu during the Wye River talks, Bill Clinton writes, "Netanyahu was threatening to scuttle the whole deal unless I released Pollard. He said I had promised him I would do so at an earlier meeting the night before, and that's why he had agreed on the other issues. In fact, I had told the prime minister that if that's what it took to make peace, I was inclined to do it, but I would have to check with our people."[62] Clinton states that Madeleine Albright, Sandy Berger, and George Tenet were all "adamantly opposed" to letting Pollard out of prison.[62]

Another Israeli request for Pollard's release was made in New York on September 14, 2005 and was declined by President George W. Bush. A request on Pollard's behalf that he be designated a Prisoner of Zion was rejected by the High Court of Justice of Israel on January 16, 2006. Another appeal for intervention on Pollard's behalf was rejected by the High Court on June 8, 2006.

On January 10, 2008, the subject of Pollard's pardon was again brought up for discussion, this time by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, during President George W. Bush's first visit to Israel as President. Subsequently, this request was turned down by President Bush. The next day, at a dinner attended by several ministers in the Israeli government (in addition to U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice), the subject of Pollard's release was again discussed. This time however, Prime Minister Olmert commented that it was not the appropriate occasion to discuss the fate of the convicted Israeli spy.[67]

As President Bush was about to leave office in 2009, Pollard himself requested clemency for the first time. In an interview in Newsweek former CIA director James Woolsey endorsed Pollard's release on two conditions: that he show contrition and decline any profits from books or other projects linked to the case. Bush did not pardon him.[68]

The New York Times reported on 21 September 2010 that the Israeli government (again under Netanyahu) informally proposed that Pollard be released as a reward to Israel for extending by three months a halt to new settlements in occupied territories.[69]

In 2010 representatives Barney Frank (D-Mass.), Edolphus Towns (D-N.Y.), Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.) and Bill Pascrell (D-N.J.) wrote a letter which "notes the positive impact that a grant of clemency would have in Israel, as a strong indication of the goodwill of our nation towards Israel and the Israeli people",[70] On November 18, 2010, 39 members of Congress submitted a Plea Of Clemency to the White House on behalf of Pollard, asking the president for his immediate release: "Such an exercise of the clemency power would not in any way imply doubt about his guilt, nor cast any aspersions on the process by which he was convicted."[71]

On December 21, 2010, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he would formally and publicly call for Pollard's release.[72] This was the first formal request made by Israel. On January 4, 2011 Netanyahu formally submitted a letter to President Obama requesting clemency. The White House issued a statement saying the letter would be reviewed.

Henry Kissinger, former U.S. Secretary of State, wrote in a letter to Barack Obama, "I believe justice would be served by commuting."[73]

Lawrence Korb, former assistant secretary of defense under Ronald Reagan, has called on the Obama Administration to grant clemency to Polard:

Some now argue that Pollard should be released because it would improve US-Israeli relations and enhance the prospects of success of the Obama administration’s Middle East peace process. Although that may be true, it is not the reason I and many others have recently written to the president requesting that he grant Pollard clemency. The reason is that Pollard has already served far too long for the crime for which he was convicted, and by now, whatever facts he might know would have little effect on national security.[74]

In August 2011 Barney Frank sought permission from Congress to discuss the incarceration of Jonathan Pollard and called on Barack Obama to "answer the many calls for Pollard's immediate release." According to activists promoting the release of Pollard, Frank said Pollard has paid a price much higher than anyone else that spied on a friend of the United States and more than many who spied for its enemies.[75]

At the 1998 Wye River Conference, Benjamin Netanyahu demanded Pollard's release, and President Clinton made a public statement about reviewing the case.[62] This precipitated an "incredulous" reaction in the American intelligence community.[76] Former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, as well as six other former U.S. Secretaries of Defense (Melvin R. Laird, Frank C. Carlucci, Richard B. Cheney, Caspar W. Weinberger, James R. Schlesinger and Elliot L. Richardson) spoke out in opposition to clemency for Jonathan Pollard.[44] They were joined by several senior congressional leaders.[44]

Four past directors of Naval Intelligence, William Studeman, Sumner Shapiro, John L. Butts, and Thomas Brooks, authored a response to the talk of clemency and what they termed "the myths that have arisen from this clever public relations campaign... aimed at transforming Pollard from greedy, arrogant betrayer of the American national trust into Pollard, committed Israeli patriot".[77] They asserted that Pollard passed information to three other countries before engaging in espionage activity on behalf of Israel, and that he had offered his services to a fourth country while he was spying for Israel.[78]
With that amount of pressure upon the US govt. from Israel and the jewish lobby,and it still has not budged,why on earth should India compromise in this instance? We owe Italy no favours (that is if you discount their "gift" of SG to us!) and need not buckle under to pressure from an EU state on the verge of bankruptcy.


The "collusion":
"Unknown merchant vessel". The waters off our western coast esp. the Kerala coast is becoming very dangerous given the amount of international traffic on the high seas and coastal traffic.Monitoring them is a massive task.A media report today showed a pic of the surveillance radar now being fitted to all our lighthouses to monitor all shipping,fishing boats,etc.,within a 20km (NM?) range.

The sooner we start to install RFIDs on every fishing boat ,the easier it will be to monitor the high seas and our extremely porous coastline.

PS: The Pollard case highlights the fact,as I've highlighted in the quotes,that the US as far back as 1983 knew about Pak's N-bomb project and were denying the Israelis details,most probably because they thought that the Israelis would tip India off! It exposes the enormous duplicity of the US which knew about Pak's N-bomb all along,kept quiet and who are we to know if it actually assisted Pak in acquiring N-weapons to counter India as it was a key US Cold War ally! This may be the hidden secret between Pak and the US which is why the US always hesitates to punish Pak despite its perfidious behaviour in Af-Pak. Any revelation by pak that the US secretly helped it to acquire N-weapons would expose US hypocrisy and duplicity and dramatically see many nations with N-ambitions,like Iran,to accelerate their programmes .
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

atma wrote:
You probably mean "Collision"
:lol: Spell demon hits again. IMO, this is third in a week. Will work on this.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

chackojoseph wrote:quote="atma"]
chackojoseph wrote:Coast Guard and Navy in SAR after ship collusion/quote]

You probably mean "Collision"
:lol: Spell demon hits again. IMO, this is third in a week. Will work on this.
Looks like we should force International Shipping going to Singapore to stay at least 200 miles of the Indian coast.

Since they have armed guards they can protect their ships.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by krishnan »

Thats what happens when you type in a hurry
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SNaik »

Chakra left Russian waters early on 21st February. Expect her in Vizag around 25th March.
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