Indian Space Program Discussion

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Kailash
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Kailash »

disha wrote: Woomera HyShot was at a very small scale. Also the scramjet engines appear to be smaller and "simpler". Interestingly, it has been 2 years and there has been no further news, I expected it to be scaled up within 2 years, particularly since it is funded by UK MOD.
Their engines were producing lesser thrust/lift than the drag at those speeds. I guess the program is dead now. The last one was HyCAUSE, launched was 15th Jun 2007. Though it is a simple and ingenious method, it has certain drawbacks since most of the data collected would be during re-entry and through different levels of the atmosphere. They could test the flame holding etc, but never recorded any appreciable thrust.

And practically speaking, even if successful, this method wont give the same kind of metrics as a horizontal flight test like that of the X-43
SaiK
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by SaiK »

its very difficult to read.. what does it say?
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/103/img0024or7.jpg

splashes???? in sea?
Sanjay M
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

SaiK wrote:its very difficult to read.. what does it say?
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/103/img0024or7.jpg

splashes???? in sea?

Use the zoom feature in your browser (CTRL + in firefox, or just click on your magnifying glass in IE)

Then it becomes quite easy to read. Thanks p_saggu!
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by SaiK »

thanks for the tech help.. but it would not work for me.
Arun_S
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Arun_S »

Ok the CE20 mystery is resolved. The 'E' in 'CE20' stands for Engine and not for stage. Looking at the panel it is clear how ISRO does the numbering.
So C12.5 is Cryo stage carrying 12.5 tonne fuel and using the engine CE7.5 developing 7.5 tonne thrust.
So C25 is Cryo stage carrying 25 tonne fuel and using the engine CE20 developing 20 tonne thrust.
A krish wrote:O.K. I am upadting my album with new pics.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... 09/krishG/

Image
GSLV Mk 2's CE

Image
Label is CE20 but I thought it was CE25! :-? :-?

Image
Model of CE
Sanjay M
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

What would be the optimal way to incorporate scramjet into TSTO?

I was mulling over possibilities, and was wondering if the orbital stage couldn't be positioned at the aft of a scramjet-driven hypersonic vehicle.

Let the streamlined hypersonic aerobody be in the front, for ease of passage through the atmosphere. But let the orbital stage (aka "upper stage") be at the aft/rear, behind the hypersonic aerobody, though obviously still oriented to point in the same forward direction as the hypersonic aerobody.

<----<----

blue is aerobody
pink is orbital stage

So how would stage separation occur? After reaching maximum velocity attainable through hypersonic acceleration, the entire vehicle then pitches upward to clear itself from the atmosphere, at which point the separation can occur by triggering explosive bolts along with a gentle gas discharge to put distance between the stages and move the aerobody out of the way.

The orbital stage then ignites its engines and accelerates to orbital velocity. The aerobody then descends in a re-entry path.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by KrishG »

ISRO gets 27% hike in interim budget but budget for manned mission remains on the table! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 161951.htm

ISRO gets 27 per cent hike in budgetary allocations

New Delhi (PTI): ISRO today got a 27 per cent hike in budgetary allocation, a major chunk of which is will be spent on missions to moon, development of the semi-cryogenic engine and building a rocket for launching heavier satellites.

Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) was allocated Rs 4,459 crore, an increase of Rs 960 crore over the previous year's sanction of Rs 3,499 crore, in the interim budget presented by Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee here.

Development of a semi-cryogenic engine for future advanced satellite launch vehicles has been allocated Rs 75 crore as against Rs 4.09 crore last year. The Cabinet had approved the project for development of the semi-cryogenic engine recently.

Chandrayaan-I and its future missions have been provided Rs 90 crore as against Rs 88 crore last year, while the Geo-synchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle Mark III project has received Rs 217 crore as against Rs 240.19 crore last year.

The GSLV Mk III, which will have the capability to put in orbit four-tonne satellites, is expected to be launched later this year.

ISRO's institute for training space science personnel has received Rs 175 crore as against Rs 65.25 crore last year. The Indian Institute of Space Science and Technology, currently functioning from Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre in Thiruvananthapuram, is developing its permanent infrastructure at Valiamala in Kerala.

The space agency has received Rs 50 crore for its programme to send a human in space. The objective of the Human Space Flight Programme is to develop a fully autonomous manned space vehicle to carry a two-member crew to a 400-km low earth orbit and ensure their safe return to earth.

The Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System, a constellation of seven satellites, has been provided with Rs 270 crore.

The IRNSS is expected to provide position accuracies similar to the Global Positioning System in a region centered around the country with a coverage extending up to 1,500 km from India.

The VSSC, a lead facility for development of satellite launch vehicles, has received Rs 613.42 crore as against Rs 494.69 crore last year.
---------------------------------------------------------

ISRO has already stated that the 12,000 crore budget for manned mission has to be passed by the middle of this year to make the date of 2015 ! Now, we should wait for the new government to come to power and then they will have to re-examine the project again! I really hate this! :evil: :evil:
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ajay_ijn »

getting 12,000 crore from Govt is going to be real tough considering we didn't spend that much for some of the most important Defence R&D programs. besides priority will be given to funding Mk-III and Satellite programs and whatever small increases will be devoted towards unmanned exploration, scientific projects like CY-2, Astrosat etc. ISRO has also got ambitious RLV/ Scramjet project, IRNSS.

ISRO has to launch Satellites regularly for IRNSS, they have to face heavy competition with GPS in commercial sector. if Military likes the system then may be defence ministry can provide some funding.

if we have to spend 10 to 15K Crore for manned mission over the period of 5 to 10 years, present increases in budget is not enough.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Katare »

We are not Insane enough yet to spend 12000Corer on sending two Indians to 400KM high up and come back. There are more important things that ISRO needs to focus on like sending a four ton satellite to GSO or completing Sat-Navigation program. A begning has been made to develop comptency and viability studies for manned mission. Will do it when time comes for right now enjoy your chandrayan with spicy vindaloo curry :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Abhijit N »

I agree....12,000 crore is way too much. Cash is precious in these hard times. And what if we do launch a man into space... assuming things go perfectly, do we have the financial muscle to keep doing it. Getting an accurate positioning system like the Gagan and making some money through satellite launches/commercial satellite construction is the way ... before stepping into space. For us sending a man into space has to be with a definite intent & benefit.

Developing the RLV as a viable & cheaper transportation system will earn us more respect & provide better technology than repeating what the Russians & American did no matter how much new technology that brings in.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

Why can't India go in for a joint development program with another country, like with BrahMos?

What about a 3-country project for developing intercontinental hypersonic transport?
(HST)

If we do it with Russia and another partner, then Russia won't be so willing to pull another Gorshkov maneuver.

Rapid intercontinental travel would help to boost globalization, and this in turn would benefit India's economy.

That technology would be used to create a truly economical means for access to space.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Yogi_G »

Abhijit N wrote:I agree....12,000 crore is way too much. Cash is precious in these hard times. And what if we do launch a man into space... assuming things go perfectly, do we have the financial muscle to keep doing it. Getting an accurate positioning system like the Gagan and making some money through satellite launches/commercial satellite construction is the way ... before stepping into space. For us sending a man into space has to be with a definite intent & benefit.

Developing the RLV as a viable & cheaper transportation system will earn us more respect & provide better technology than repeating what the Russians & American did no matter how much new technology that brings in.
It is not without any benefits, apart from the scientific aspect (about 5%) the rest all is PR stuff and world attention (like Iran's chants of Arabic verses before the recent launch of their rocket :lol: ). A surgical launch and recovery operation will attract the attention of the world once again toward's India's space programme and overall high-tech industry. To achieve a technological feat of this magnitude you will need to have a mature high tech industrial base and that of all will capture the investor's eye. It will add to India's clout on the world stage.
Getting an accurate positioning system like the Gagan and making some money through satellite launches/commercial satellite construction is the way
This will precisely be the end result, only on a higher scale, ISRO will be sought out by foreign countries to do their stuff. To top it all ISRO has been extremely successful in earning back the money invested in its programmes, I keep reading for every one rupee put in 2 rupees are earned through revenues etc...I am extremely confident that the tremendously intelligent and humble gentlemen in ISRO who have made us so proud will definitely replicate this financial success in this case as well...
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After moon mission, ISRO now lines up twin launch

Post by Hiten »

PTI news tend to dissapear from the URLs after a few days, so posting whole

After moon mission, ISRO now lines up twin launch
After the successful Chandrayaan-I moon mission, Indian Space Research Organisation is now getting ready for a twin launch - a "breakthrough" Radar Imaging Satellite (RISAT) and ANUSAT.
Bangalore-headquartered ISRO is targeting a March last week date for launching them on board the indigenously built Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle from the Sriharikota spaceport.

Indian space scientists see the 1,780-kg Risat as a major milestone for the country as far as remote sensing satellites are concerned. RISAT mission would have a C-band Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) payload, operating in a multi-polarisation and multi-resolution mode.

SAR, being an active sensor, operating in the microwave range of electromagnetic spectrum, provides the target parameters such as dielectric constant, roughness, and geometry, and has the unique capability for day-night imaging, and imaging in all weather conditions including fog and haze, and also provide information on soil moisture.


"So far, all satellites launched by ISRO are optical remote sensing satellites. But RISAT will have all other capabilities," ISRO spokesperson S Satish told PTI.

RISAT is capable of taking pictures during night as well and even in cloud-covered conditions, an expertise Indian remote sensing satellites did not have previously.
Anna University Microsatellite [ANUSAT]

ISRO MkIII budget saw a cut. Is it because expenditure related to designing it is no longer being considered and only manufacturing it remains?
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by KrishG »

We are not Insane enough yet to spend 12000Corer on sending two Indians to 400KM high up and come back. There are more important things that ISRO needs to focus on like sending a four ton satellite to GSO or completing Sat-Navigation program. A begning has been made to develop comptency and viability studies for manned mission. Will do it when time comes for right now enjoy your chandrayan with spicy vindaloo curry :mrgreen:
Investment in space is always a long term investment. Recent CIA reports in U.S. put's l;ight on the the rise of 3 powers besides U.S.A It's Russia, India and China. 3 of these countries have full-fledged space programs including manned missions. We have the capability to do something in almost one tenth the price which others can. 12 crores is 2.5 billion USD. These countries will get ahead while we still are lost in Fools Paradise. Goin ahead with the manned mission doesn't mean that we will have to scrap all the existent programs. Earth observation, IRNSS and telecommunications will have their own rightful place.

As an example, China's share in commercial launch market has increased exponentially since the successful inception of their human spaceflight program. Even Iran, a country which launched it's first satellite recently has started human spaceflight program and given a date of 2021.
Getting an accurate positioning system like the Gagan and making some money through satellite launches/commercial satellite construction is the way ... before stepping into space. For us sending a man into space has to be with a definite intent & benefit.
The intent and benefits are the same if not more, as China's intent and benefits post-inception of it's Human spaceflight Program.
Why can't India go in for a joint development program with another country, like with BrahMos?
We already have seen what has happened to ACTS. Joint-development programs always have such draw-backs.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by symontk »

Ok the CE20 mystery is resolved. The 'E' in 'CE20' stands for Engine and not for stage. Looking at the panel it is clear how ISRO does the numbering.
So CS12.5 is Cryo stage carrying 12.5 tonne fuel and using the engine CE7.5 developing 7.5 tonne thrust.
So CS25 is Cryo stage carrying 25 tonne fuel and using the engine CE20 developing 20 tonne thrust.
Small correction
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ajay_ijn »

Sanjay M wrote:Why can't India go in for a joint development program with another country, like with BrahMos?

What about a 3-country project for developing intercontinental hypersonic transport?
(HST)

If we do it with Russia and another partner, then Russia won't be so willing to pull another Gorshkov maneuver.

Rapid intercontinental travel would help to boost globalization, and this in turn would benefit India's economy.

That technology would be used to create a truly economical means for access to space.
joint development is when Russia also wants to develop, explore something new, but they have sending manned missions since 60s, So now they would concentrate on ISS or manned moon missions. they would be able to provide infrastructure or spacecraft but they would ask india to bear the costs.
As an example, China's share in commercial launch market has increased exponentially since the successful inception of their human spaceflight program.
i can give you another example Europe didn't have a single manned mission, even though they were capable of doing it decades before China and yet they command bigger market share than China.
Last edited by ajay_ijn on 17 Feb 2009 19:01, edited 1 time in total.
Sanjay M
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

I'm not talking about joint development of a Soyuz type capsule, I'm talking about joint development of a scramjet launcher vehicle. I think that both India and Russia would benefit from jointly developing a hypersonic transport type of vehicle. This technology could eventually be adapted to space launches.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ajay_ijn »

Sanjay M wrote:I'm not talking about joint development of a Soyuz type capsule, I'm talking about joint development of a scramjet launcher vehicle. I think that both India and Russia would benefit from jointly developing a hypersonic transport type of vehicle. This technology could eventually be adapted to space launches.
yes definitely, there is a good possibility for that. but what about MTCR?. Scramjet can be used for cruise missiles.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

Oh yeah, that's a good point. Dammit.

Perhaps India and Russia could co-develop everything except the engines together.
ie. body design, infrastructure, etc

Actually, how come various US fighters on offer to India for MCA are not covered under MTCR?
At what speed does MTCR apply?

If we co-developed a Mach3 SST with Russia, then would MTCR apply to that? If so, then it should apply to F16IN, F18E, etc, because those are military aircraft, and not even civilian.

So at what point does MTCR take effect? Tomahawks are themselves subsonic, so any kind of turbofan can arguably be fast enough to get labeled cruise missile technology. You don't even need to be supersonic for that.

If the SST used cryogenic fuel, then that's not really practical for military purposes, just as it isn't for GSLV.

If we decide to diversify our military supplier base by going with US combat jets, then we should use our leverage from that to extract from the US an interpretation of MTCR that is more favorable to our needs and goals. Likewise, if Russia's feathers are feeling ruffled by our bringing US suppliers into our defense markets which were previously an exclusive/predominantly Russian domain, then our participation in a big-ticket Supersonic Transport joint venture with them would help to soothe their feathers as well.

Thusfar we've been purchasing all our warplanes from Moscow and all our airliners from the US. Maybe we need to invert that, to open up new possibilities and oppportunities.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

Oh, and another thing -- we're going to be co-developing BrahMos2 with Russia, and that's obviously a cruise missile, of purported hypersonic specs.

So if we can do BrahMos2 with Russia in spite of MTCR, I don't see why we'd be barred from doing an SST/HST with them.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Nitesh »

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... 06/349349/

Isro set to use indigenously developed cryogenic engine for GSLV launch
Bibhu Ranjan Mishra / Bangalore February 18, 2009, 0:55 IST

The Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) is expected to launch a Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV) in July this year, using an indigenously developed cryogenic engine. The flight that is likely to launch the GSAT-4 into orbit will mark the end of India's dependence on Russia, which had been supplying the cryogenic engines since 1991. India has so far launched five GSLV rockets.

The launch vehicle is capable of placing a 2-tonne satellite :?: into a geostationary transfer orbit, uses all the three kinds of propellants — solid, liquid and cryogenic. The Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) uses only solid and liquid propellants and is capable of carrying payloads less than 2 tonnes.

"All the previous GSLV flights had cryogenic engines procured from Russia. For the first time, indigenously developed cryogenic engines will be used. This is a development started almost parallelly to procurement from Russia. We have completed all the tests, including qualification and flight acceptance. Now the engine is fully qualified and will be used in the next flight of GSLV," a highly-placed source in Isro told Business Standard.

Work on developing India's own cryogenic engine was started by Isro shortly after the project to develop the GSLV was initiated in 1986. However, failing in the initial attempt to develop the highly complex cryogenic engine on its own, Isro inked a $120 million contract with Soviet space enterprise Glavkosmos in 1991 for supply of two KVD-1 cryogenic engines. India has so far procured seven Russian-built cryogenic engines, of which five have been used during the previous GSLV launches of Isro.

With an initial project cost of about Rs 235 crore, the work for the development of India's own cryogenic engine was jointly carried out by the Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre in Trivandrum, Material Development and Research Centre at Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre (VSSC) and the Liquid Propulsion Test Facility (LPSC) at Mahendragiri in Tamil Nadu. Isro conducted the flight acceptance test of the indigenous cryogenic engine on December 18 last year at the LPSC, which was found to be quite satisfactory.

"The flight acceptance hot test of the cryogenic engine was carried out at the liquid propulsion systems centre at Mahendragiri in Tamil Nadu. This engine will be used in the next GSLV launch in April 2009 for carrying the 2.3-tonne geo-stationary experimental satellite (GSAT)," the space research agency had stated at that time.

GSAT-4, the communication satellite that Isro intends to launch using the indigenous cryogenic engine powered GSLV, will provide internet connectivity in remote villages. "We are going to launch GSAT-4 which will have digital connectivity on board. It's meant for data transfers from computers at remote villages," says Isro Chairman G Madhavan Nair.

Isro is planning to use the GSLV for the Chandrayaan-II mission scheduled for 2012 as opposed to PSLV that was used to launch Chandrayaan-I
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Brando »

A krish wrote: Investment in space is always a long term investment. Recent CIA reports in U.S. put's l;ight on the the rise of 3 powers besides U.S.A It's Russia, India and China. 3 of these countries have full-fledged space programs including manned missions. We have the capability to do something in almost one tenth the price which others can. 12 crores is 2.5 billion USD. These countries will get ahead while we still are lost in Fools Paradise. Goin ahead with the manned mission doesn't mean that we will have to scrap all the existent programs. Earth observation, IRNSS and telecommunications will have their own rightful place.

As an example, China's share in commercial launch market has increased exponentially since the successful inception of their human spaceflight program. Even Iran, a country which launched it's first satellite recently has started human spaceflight program and given a date of 2021.
Investment in space is not necessarily always worth it. Manned missions are good and sensible if no body has already done it or there is significant advances to be made through human exploration. That is not the case for India at all. Moreover, many basic technologies need to be developed first before manned missions are possible. The growth in commercial launch business has little to do with the successes in a manned mission because the requirements for each are completely different, thought manned missions do suggest a particular stage of advancement in one's space program.

But the gain in projection of an image of competence vs the cost of doing so are not favorable. That is why the Japanese wisely have stayed away from such endevours even thought their program is the second most advanced space program in the world after Nasa. Even with the lower cost of our manned mission, the amount of facilities that would need to be created for a one off mission is pointless. The huge investment in men, laboratories and equipment cannot be logically justified for a mere "advertisement". The Chinese have different priorities and different level of resources. They are sitting on HUGE pile of foreign exchange and have countless minions to carry our the whims of one party.

The most logical course of action for India and ISRO would be to modernize our rockets and expand their payload capabilities significantly. Not to mention research better fuels and improve technologies in manipulating remote exploration probes and landers. Also lots of basic research in propulsion like the Variable Impluse Magnetoplasma engine and pulsed plasma engine etc other technologies are of critical importance in the long term space exploration and scientific growth. Also the setting up of an effective deep space network of relay sattelites and tracking satellites is of critical importance. Not to mention the fact that India still doesn't have a dedicated observatory in space ala Hubble and the Chandra X-ray observatory. These are far more useful and productive endevours for the money spent on them.

Manned missions have played a very small part in true scientific research. Investing money in such a project is ludicrous especially for a country like India where people cant even expect to have constant electricity or water!
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Brando »

Sanjay M wrote:I'm not talking about joint development of a Soyuz type capsule, I'm talking about joint development of a scramjet launcher vehicle. I think that both India and Russia would benefit from jointly developing a hypersonic transport type of vehicle. This technology could eventually be adapted to space launches.
The question should be, do the Russians want to develop something of that sort ??

There was already a grand experiment in supersonic commercial flight, it failed miserably because it was too costly, too noisy on the ground and not compatible with current infrastructure. Not to mention it want compatible with today's commercial airline business structure. Hypersonic vehicles would have to be sub-orbital, for that India first needs to learn how to build atmospheric airliners properly. Also, most importantly, they would have to justify a need for a sub-orbital hyperplane as it would most likely very expensive to build and develop and also very expensive to run and maintain.

With so many deficiencies, that plan is far fetched.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Arun_S »

This is a significant news.
Nitesh wrote:http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... 06/349349/

Isro set to use indigenously developed cryogenic engine for GSLV launch
Bibhu Ranjan Mishra / Bangalore February 18, 2009, 0:55 IST

The Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) is expected to launch a Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV) in July this year, using an indigenously developed cryogenic engine. The flight that is likely to launch the GSAT-4 into orbit will mark the end of India's dependence on Russia, which had been supplying the cryogenic engines since 1991. India has so far launched five GSLV rockets.

The launch vehicle is capable of placing a 2-tonne satellite :?: into a geostationary transfer orbit, uses all the three kinds of propellants — solid, liquid and cryogenic. The Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) uses only solid and liquid propellants and is capable of carrying payloads less than 2 tonnes.

"All the previous GSLV flights had cryogenic engines procured from Russia. For the first time, indigenously developed cryogenic engines will be used. This is a development started almost parallelly to procurement from Russia. We have completed all the tests, including qualification and flight acceptance. Now the engine is fully qualified and will be used in the next flight of GSLV," a highly-placed source in Isro told Business Standard.
.. . .
.... ... .. . . . "The flight acceptance hot test of the cryogenic engine was carried out at the liquid propulsion systems centre at Mahendragiri in Tamil Nadu. This engine will be used in the next GSLV launch in April 2009 for carrying the 2.3-tonne geo-stationary experimental satellite (GSAT)," the space research agency had stated at that time.
So this marks GSLV delivering the target objective of inserting 2.2 tonne payload in GTO.
This increase in payload IMHO largely comes from operating the engine in uprated thrust for the first few hundred seconds, and reverting to standard thrust of 7.3 tonne when rocket has reached a velocity when there is no ISP loss due to gravity.

I have a feeling that CUSP will also carry few hundred Kg more fuel.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

Brando wrote:The question should be, do the Russians want to develop something of that sort ??

There was already a grand experiment in supersonic commercial flight, it failed miserably because it was too costly, too noisy on the ground and not compatible with current infrastructure. Not to mention it want compatible with today's commercial airline business structure. Hypersonic vehicles would have to be sub-orbital, for that India first needs to learn how to build atmospheric airliners properly. Also, most importantly, they would have to justify a need for a sub-orbital hyperplane as it would most likely very expensive to build and develop and also very expensive to run and maintain.

With so many deficiencies, that plan is far fetched.
Concorde was too small, and could only carry about 100 or so passengers. It never even re-couped its development costs. But if you look at the planned Tu-244, its seating capacity is planned at 300:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-244

That's much more economical. Also consider that we now live in an era of globalization, where there are more people doing business from opposite ends of the Earth. More people now need to get from New York to Beijing, or London to Tokyo, or Paris to Sydney, etc. There are now direct routes to New Delhi which never existed before.

India and Russia should support technologies that sustain and even accelerate globalization, as they assist multi-polarity and increase economic opportunities all over the world.
The internet is one example of such a key empowering technology. If it had not existed, we'd be nowhere close to where we are today. Rapid intercontinental travel would be another such example.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by KrishG »

India puts off scram-jet test to 2010

February 18, 2009, (Sawf News) - India's Defense Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) at Hyderabad will test a scramjet technology demonstrator developed with Israeli assistance next year.

The test at India's integrated test range on its east coast will be critical to the development of missiles like Brahmos 2 and ISRO's Reusable Launch Vehicle - Technology Demonstrator (RLV-TD).

ISRO displayed a scale model of the RLV-TD at Aero India 2009.

The RLV will possess wings and tail fins, and will be launched atop a solid booster, similar to the ones on the PSLV.

During initial tests the RLV will fly without the scramjet engine. After burnout, the booster will separate and fall away, and the RLV will go on to make an unpowered ascent.

The RLV will then re-enter the atmosphere at hypersonic speed and use aerodynamic breaking to decelerate. It will be brought to a gliding, unpowered cruise speed of about 0.8 mach, and slowed down further to make a horizontal landing.

Eventually, the RLV will be powered by an air breathing scram jet like the one that will be tested next year.

It is hoped that RLV technology will mature by 2015 by which time the solid rocket booster used as the first state will also be recovered and reused.

The RLV and the rocket booster will be separately recovered, with the former making a conventional landing on a runway and booster making a parachute landing.

Unlike NASA's Space Shuttle, which powers itself into orbit around the earth and subsequently de-orbits and re-enters the atmosphere to glide back to a landing, ISRO's RLV is not designed to enter orbit. It is a pure launcher. Not a spacecraft cum launcher.

It will loft a satellite into orbit and immediately re-enter the atmosphere and glide back for a conventional landing.

http://news.sawf.org/health/56820.aspx
sanjaykumar
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

2010? yeah sure mac. Why bother giving dates? meaningless.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Arunkumar »

RISAT and Anusat launch in March/April

From the payload it carries, Anusat seems to be a good effort by the university.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Arun_S »

Cross posting from Mijjile thread
----------------------------------------------------------
rakall wrote:
Rahul M wrote:pramod, google is your friend. spoon feeding is not encouraged here.

rakall, could you mail me the ISRO stuff ??
(email in my profile signature)

alternatively you can upload it to ifile.it
no such irritating download limits/counters etc.
Rahul, Prasadkumar, Arun --

the ISRO stuff can be downloaded from here http://ifile.it/j947dly
That stuff is very informative and gives insight to many overt and not so overt capabilities. Specially the engines/thrusters with the stated dry mass.

Also interesting to see the 85 Kg Indian Medium Satellite sporting resolution of first generation IRS satellites that were much heavier.

And the Chankian Yindus stating the IRNSS accuracy of 20m at the fringes of 1,500Km distance from Indian borders :rotfl: . Paki pigs can figure out what will be the accuracy when their national assets hidden in hills and crevices of their Garnail's musharraf are taken out by inhuman UAVs, be it La-whore, Sar-kutta, Quetta, Pasni, Swat or Malakhand. Jaguar(sic) vane be slit with surgical precision.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

A krish wrote:Unlike NASA's Space Shuttle, which powers itself into orbit around the earth and subsequently de-orbits and re-enters the atmosphere to glide back to a landing, ISRO's RLV is not designed to enter orbit. It is a pure launcher. Not a spacecraft cum launcher.

It will loft a satellite into orbit and immediately re-enter the atmosphere and glide back for a conventional landing.

http://news.sawf.org/health/56820.aspx
So then is the RLV intended to perform the same function as an intermediate stage?

It's not a lower stage, because it doesn't take off from the ground, and instead requires a booster rocket to get it upto speed.

It's not an orbital stage, because it doesn't enter orbit.

So is it just an intermediate upper stage?

Why is RLV more useful than just having a larger booster rocket connected to the orbital stage?
What's the point of having RLV and calling it reusable, if you need this expendable booster rocket to launch it in the first place?
Anujan
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Anujan »

Arun_S wrote:And the Chankian Yindus stating the IRNSS accuracy of 20m at the fringes of 1,500Km distance from Indian borders.
Hmm. After straining my eyes on the info board and googling up relevant pages, I found this (warning PDF), This and this

Nice old report from ISRO. Please read the label on the camera (bit hard to do that).
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Neela »

KrishG
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by KrishG »

Sanjay M wrote:
A krish wrote:Unlike NASA's Space Shuttle, which powers itself into orbit around the earth and subsequently de-orbits and re-enters the atmosphere to glide back to a landing, ISRO's RLV is not designed to enter orbit. It is a pure launcher. Not a spacecraft cum launcher.

It will loft a satellite into orbit and immediately re-enter the atmosphere and glide back for a conventional landing.

http://news.sawf.org/health/56820.aspx
So then is the RLV intended to perform the same function as an intermediate stage?

It's not a lower stage, because it doesn't take off from the ground, and instead requires a booster rocket to get it upto speed.

It's not an orbital stage, because it doesn't enter orbit.

So is it just an intermediate upper stage?

Why is RLV more useful than just having a larger booster rocket connected to the orbital stage?
What's the point of having RLV and calling it reusable, if you need this expendable booster rocket to launch it in the first place?
I think it means that when RLV reaches the particular orbital height, it will just give the necessary horizontal velocity with the particular inclination and return to earth. Then why is the term 're-entry' being used if it a does not function as an orbiter ??
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

To me, scramjet makes sense for TSTO, and maybe SSTO.

But why would you create a scramjet system for 3STO?
How could you expect to achieve any cost reductions or other improvements with that approach?
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by kit »

GSLV Mark 3 according to brochure can throw a 4 ton to GTO or 10 ton to LEO. Just for comparison Saturn/Energia/Ares have more than 175 tons LEO capability.China has plans to be able to launch 25 tons into LEO and 14 tons into GEO.
Gerard
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Gerard »

Larger payloads to LEO will have to wait until ISRO's UMLV (Unified Modular Launch Vehicle) (with semi-cryo core stages) is developed.
Sanjay M
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

Anybody have any links to info on UMLV?
Never even heard of it.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ajay_ijn »

Sanjay M wrote:Anybody have any links to info on UMLV?
Never even heard of it.
It was mentioned in planning comission report.
its also mentioned in this budget report
http://www.isro.org/Accounts/OutcomeBudget2008-2009.pdf

India Approves Rs 1,798 crore For ISRO's Semi-Cryogenic Engine Development
"The semi-cryogenic engine will facilitate applications for future space missions such as the Reusable Launch Vehicle, Unified Launch Vehicle and vehicle for interplanetary missions," Chidambaram said.

The semi-cryogenic engines using liquid oxygen and kerosene are considered relatively environment friendly, non-toxic and non-corrosive.
planning comission report
http://www.dst.gov.in/about_us/11th-plan/rep-space.pdf
With the development of GSLV Mk III, the launch vehicle fleet of ISRO would comprise of three types of vehicles viz., PSLV, GSLV and GSLV Mk III, involving a number of propulsion modules specific to each vehicle.

In order to reduce the number of propulsion modules for different types of vehicles, studies have been undertaken to evolve a standard core vehicle configuration and strap-on boosters with different propellant loading to meet the varying payload requirement, leading to the concept of “Unified launch vehicle”. To arrive at the standard core configuration, the most optimum solution would be to use the semi cryogenic stage as the first stage and the heavier cryogenic stage as the upper stage. This configuration would meet the payload requirements in all mass ranges for the future.
Based on the technologies available with ISRO and the same to be acquired in the next decade, a modular launch vehicle capable of carrying payloads from 500 kg to 6000 Kg on the expendable side and a totally reusable launch vehicle in another half a decade seems a reality. The development of semi-cryogenic and a higher capacity cryogenic engines has been initiated to realise a modular vehicle. On the reusable vehicle side, a number of demonstrator flights are planned.
could be indias answer to russian angara rocket family.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Arun_S »

Neela wrote:ISRO 2008 Annual Report

http://www.isro.org/rep2008/index.htm
Bum Bum Bholay !!!!!
Satellite Navigation
The Government has approved the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS). It consists of a constellation of seven satellites – three in Geo Stationary Orbit (GSO) and four in Near-GSO. IRNSS management structure for system implementation has been established and detailed system definition (space segment and ground segment) work has begun. IRNSS is expected to provide position accuracies comparable to the declared position accuracies by other global constellations in a region centered over India and extending to adjoining areas. It is expected to implement this regional navigation system in about five to six years. IRNSS satellites will transmit ranging codes and navigation data in S and L-5 bands. The navigation software and user receiver specifications are being finalised.

The spacecraft configuration has been finalised and all the satellites of the constellation are being configured identically. A massive procurement strategy is formulated and procurement of components and strategic materials for ten spacecraft has been initiated. The spacecraft is basically configured with I-1K Bus to be compatible for launch onboard PSLV. However, a study is carried out to see the feasibility of launching of two IRNSS spacecraft by GSLV. After detailed analysis it is found that it is possible to launch two numbers of inclined orbit satellites in one flight of GSLV. The Technology Demonstration System (TDS) phase of the Indian Satellite-Based Augmentation System GAGAN is coming to a close. Eight Indian Reference Stations, one Master Control Centre (MCC) and one Indian Land Uplink Station have been commissioned.
So 7 are required , but 3 more replacement sats are being built in one swoop. And GSLV-Mk-II will handle two sats in inclined orbit; that is because from Sriharikota/SDSC inclined orbit is most natural for the launcher.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Neela »

http://www.isro.org/rep2008/mission.jpg

Quite a few unknown satellites are slated for next year and later.
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