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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 11:31 
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Does any of this impinge on Indian security or it's continental shelf? Can't really trust Paki's not to create problems with more areas under their exclusivity, but confess i am no expert on matters regarding the continental shelf or what governs these awards..anyone can shed some light on this?

Pakistan’s sea limits set to be extended

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Thursday, 07 May, 2009 | 06:57 AM PST

ISLAMABAD, May 6: Pakistan’s continental shelf, or sea-water limits, will be extended from 200 to 350 nautical miles provided no nation objects within a week.

“No country has challenged our claim for an additional 150 nautical miles into the sea,” said the federal minister for Science and Technology, Azam Khan Swati, who had called a briefing on Wednesday evening to announce what he called an “historical conquest.”

After four years and surveys worth Rs500 million, the United Nations accepted Pakistan’s claim for extension of the continental shelf. Pakistan would have legal control over another 50, 000 square-kilometres into the Arabian Sea.

Pakistan’s mission to the United Nations in New York had filed a claim for extension in its continental shelf from 200 nautical miles to 350 nautical miles to United Nations Commission on the Limit of Continental Shelf (UNCLOS) on April 30.

The ministry of science and technology (MoST) was involved in the preparation of the claim for the last couple of years. The National Institute of Oceanography (NIO), an autonomous organisation of this ministry, was entrusted with the task to prepare the claim in accordance with UN requirements. The case was prepared and submitted to the Pakistan mission in New York last month.

Under the UNCLOS, Pakistan already has an Exclusive Economic Zone extending up to 200 nautical miles.

The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) was adopted in 1982 and came into force in Nov 1994. Pakistan ratified the convention in Feb 1997. The Convention entered into force for Pakistan on March 28, 1997.

Although the government submitted its claim just two weeks before deadline, Science Minister Azam Khan Swati was all smiles when the announced the news. “It’s a historical conquest. The benefits will be limitless,” he said.

“We gain a substantial area of more than 50, 000 sq/km with another 150 nautical miles into the sea,” said Azam Khan Swati.

Listing benefits, the minister claimed that the data acquired during the project would provide a reliable and firm database and foundation, essential for future marine research and exploration of living and non-living marine resources.

“It will also provide a good basis for out scientists/technicians to further promote and develop the marine geological and geophysical research and survey capabilities. The project will contribute directly to the petroleum and mineral sector in general and to the offshore maritime industry/market,” Azam Khan Swati said.

“Elsewhere in the world, deepwater fan and deltaic systems are of great interest to oil exploration companies. After the survey we conducted, it is safe to say that Pakistan’s waters are rich in coal deposits and there is plenty of oil and gas,” Azam Khan Swati said.

The minister said that as many as 29 countries have filed claim for extension and May 13, 2009 was last date for submission of claim.

India has not filed claim for extension of its continental shelf so far, he added.

He said it was a historical moment that owing to timely efforts by the ministry and other stakeholders, Pakistan would succeed to extend its continental shelf.

The minister said that Pakistan has 200 nautical miles an Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) which now would be 350 nautical miles.

He said that substantial area of more than 50,000 square kilometres has been gained after extension of the continental shelf.

Azam Swati said that this would contribute directly to the petroleum and mineral sector in general and offshore maritime industry in particular.

He said this would also provide a reliable and firm database and foundation for future marine research and exploration of living and non-living resources.

The minister said that by analogy, elsewhere in the world, deepwater fan and deltaic systems were of great interest to oil exploration companies.

Oil and gas developments in sediment-rich margins were clear indicators of potential for the Indus Fan, he said.

The UNCLOS was adopted in 1982 and came into force on Nov 16, 1994. Pakistan ratified the convention on Feb 26, 1997.


http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... tended-759


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 11:34 
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OBL has released his latest pop album.

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Purported bin Laden tape slams U.S. role in Pakistan

"Most of the Pakistani people reject this unjust war. Zardari did this in response to the ones paying him in the White House -- not 10 percent but multiple folds of that," the message says. {Ouch !} :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 11:35 
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johneeG wrote:

PPS: BTW, I never understood why the talks are so highly rated. We suspended the talks after 26/11, what have we gained? What difference did it make to pukes? Now, we will start the talks, again what difference will it make? or is there something that we are missing? Becoz pukes keep insisting on talks everytime, GOI almost tries to use talks as a carrot, is there something that pukes gain by talks?


If talks make no difference, why is TSP begging for them? The reason is that it gives TSP elite legitimacy in the eyes of its people. We cowered India and brought it to the negotiating table is the message. Plus, any talks would mean India making all the concessions because by entering into the talks, India has conceeded the point, advanced by USA, that TSP has legitimate grievances against India that must be addressed, and terror is the result of TSP's frustration in the face of Indian obduracy.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 11:46 
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Whoops...bumped into something interesting: :)

http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/11/14/ ... an-part-2/


Confirms to what i said in the previous post. We must focus a thread on what a split Pakistan entails. How security is enhanced. How Nuclear issues/ the Islamic bomb becomes irrelevent, how the Kashmir problem becomes redundant, how India will get it's pipelines from not one but multiple entry points to the CAR and Afghanistan. Why splitting Pakistan will help the entire region including the CAR, as India develops links by road and pipes to this region. Pakistan as a stable entity has successfully kept the entire region from developing by disallowing India access to CAR, Afghanistan. This will stop once we do away with the bogey of 'A stable Pakistan is in India's interests'.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 12:16 
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CRamS wrote:
If talks make no difference, why is TSP begging for them? The reason is that it gives TSP elite legitimacy in the eyes of its people. We cowered India and brought it to the negotiating table is the message. Plus, any talks would mean India making all the concessions because by entering into the talks, India has conceeded the point, advanced by USA, that TSP has legitimate grievances against India that must be addressed, and terror is the result of TSP's frustration in the face of Indian obduracy.


Actually, I was confused about the same. Apparantly talks make no difference but still TSP and US keeps putting pressure on us to talk. Why?

I am not convinced with your assessment that by talking to us, TSP elites earn legitimacy in the eyes of their ppl. Their ppl actually dont like them talking to us either, they just want the TFTA PA to finish off the kaffir yindia.
As for India conceding to the point advanced by the US, it doesnt make differences.
My main worry is are these talks going to dilute our stand on Kashmir. There was a talk that India and TSP had reached to some kind of agreement before 26/11 happened and derailed it. So, I'm not worried if we talk or not, as long as our leaders dont trade kashmir for 'peace'.
IF India is firm on its stand about kashmir(integral part of India), then talk or no-talk makes no difference, unless no-talk also means cutting off all kinds of diplomatic, cultural and other ties......
Since, our leaders didnt have the guts to cut off those ties anyway, we may as well talk.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 12:21 
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I am keenly interested to know, what the state of Pakistan is in in about 2 years time!

- TSPA waging America's war
- Destruction of life and property wrought on the Pushtuns by the TSPA on a massive scale
- 2 million plus IDPs.
- Pakjabi-Pushtun split widened
- Taliban changing hands from ISI to Al Qaida
- Taliban gaining ground in Afghanistan and Pakistan
- Obama concerned about his reelection

In two years time all these refugee camps for IDPs would have been taken over by the Taliban, the food Mafia or the other gangsters.

In which case, it suffices to say, that as far as blowback is concerned, Pakistan ain't seen nothin' yet!

GoI wants to restart Peace Process with Pakistan again. There is only one reason. India wants to keep the current love fest going on in AfPak, in Swat, in Waziristans, an exclusive affair between Pakjabis, Pushtuns and Americans. India should cease to be a factor in it, cease to be a scapegoat.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 12:25 
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CRamS wrote:
I don't trust MMS. In my books he is a trai... amd a USA/western puppet.

With all due respect saa'r in regards to dealing with Pakistan apart from Indira Gandhi are there any Indian PM's in your book that are not trai... ? What is MMS doing so different?

Just curious.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 12:58 
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While so many posts try to put blame on MMS, there is some history that is being forgotten. The parliament attacks and how the BJP led government just kept barking on this side of the fence.

So is inaction a principle of all the parties or is the Intel/babu machinery dead against any action.

That said, the stars were all well aligned for strikes on Pakistan for MMS a few days ago. Newly elected, 5 years ahead and Pakistani courts release of the scum. Incredulity pales as a word to describe this.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 13:00 
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With all due respect saa'r in regards to dealing with Pakistan apart from Indira Gandhi are there any Indian PM's in your book that are not trai... ? What is MMS doing so different?

Even in 1971, massacres continued for a good 9 months before IG took action. By then 3 million had been killed, hundreds of thousands raped by Yahyas goons. IG went to US asking for help, got none. India acted only after the demographics in the East changed drastically after the induction of around 10 million refugees, the biggest refugee crises the world has seen after WW2.

I do acknowledge that once she did act, she did a good job. But there were too many tremendously provocative events that followed before she did act.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 13:11 
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harbans wrote:
With all due respect saa'r in regards to dealing with Pakistan apart from Indira Gandhi are there any Indian PM's in your book that are not trai... ? What is MMS doing so different?

Even in 1971, massacres continued for a good 9 months before IG took action. By then 3 million had been killed, hundreds of thousands raped by Yahyas goons. IG went to US asking for help, got none. India acted only after the demographics in the East changed drastically after the induction of around 10 million refugees, the biggest refugee crises the world has seen after WW2.

I do acknowledge that once she did act, she did a good job. But there were too many tremendously provocative events that followed before she did act.

harbans,

you are forgetting the taller than himalayan friends up north had to be stopped. It was 1971, only 9 years after 1962 - the situation went bad in feb-march, but the mountain passes close only in november. There are sources which state that she wanted to act in may/june timeframe, but the army asked to wait, to give the operation a guarentee of success.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 13:16 
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A re-look at Mumbai 26/11:

There is no doubt that the LeT was responsible for Mumbai 26/11. The conventional wisdom is that the LeT is an instrument of the Pakistani military, which is therefore the ultimate author of the 26/11 atrocity. I think it's worthwhile to take another look at this thesis. In an effort to understand what the origins of 26/11 could be, let us look at a few scenarios and then comment about the plausibility of each:

Let us consider the scenario - the Pakistan Military did it: The Pakistani military is a terrorist organization. But the question is whether they were managing the 26/11 operation, including details like target selection. Amongst the targets was the Jewish Chabad center. Now, the Pakistani military brass have been subsisting on American munificence for generations, and they would certainly understand the power of the Jewish lobby in Washington. They would definitely want to slaughter Hindoo Kaffirs when they think they can get away with it, but it should have been amply clear to them that going around slaughtering Jews is not something that is done. Their entire venom is directed against Hindoo Kaffirs, and they tend to behave fairly abjectly before other powers.

But, on the other hand, the Pakistani establishment has demonstrated a very high capacity for lunacy. Recall the strenuous and ludicrous efforts to deny Kasab's origins. Also, the attack on the Sri Lankan team has all the hallmarks of a false-flag operation by the Pakistani establishment.

So the question becomes whether the level of lunacy of the Pakistani military brass is high enough to have ordered an attack on the Jewish center. The jury is still out on this question.

It is also pertinent to keep in mind that all is not well between the military brass and the LeT: For example, Pakistan Attorney-General Latif Khosa told the Lahore High Court that the government had enough material against Mr. Saeed, but it could not be produced in an open court (http://www.hindu.com/2009/05/28/stories ... 501000.htm). Later, the AG presented to the Court (in camera) material linking Saeed to Al-Qaeda (http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -saeed-369). There have been reports that the Pakistani government is planning to appeal the release of Saeed (http://indiatoday.intoday.in/index.php? ... 8&Itemid=1). Lastly, it should be noted that Saeed, after his release, has opposed the Swat offensive (http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=79386), showing that he is not quite on the same page as the Pakistani military. The Pakistanis have been accusing the US of secretly supporting people like Mehsud and Fazlullah, who are armed with ostensibly "leaked" American weapons. So, if Hafiz Saeed opposes the Swat offensive, it does raise some questions. It may be that Saeed is aligned less with the Pakistani military than with his Arab backers (and therefore, wittingly or unwittingly, aligned with any powers behind such backers). However, the ISI and the LeT have a long history of collaboration. People like Saeed know too many secrets. Also, the Pakistanis may want to use the LeT again against India in the future. Therefore, despite the apparent differences between the ISI and LeT, it is unlikely that Pakistan will be able to take any decisive action against the LeT.

Let us move to the next scenario - the LeT did the planning, either on its own, or in collaboration with Arab extremists: The LeT and Wahhabi Arab extremists would certainly be capable of targeting the Jewish center, and it is known that the founding of the LeT was financed by Arab donors. So the links between the LeT and the Wahhabis go back a long way. Further, it has emerged that an Oman-based terror financier was in Mumbai days before the attack (http://www.hindu.com/2009/05/28/stories ... 760100.htm). But let us recall the threatening phone call made to Zardari by an unidentified person claiming to be Pranab Mukherjee. The call appeared to originate in the Ministry of External Affairs in New Delhi (http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/07/stories ... 210100.htm ). It is fair to assume that the people behind the Mumbai attack were also responsible for that phone call. The question is, would extremist rabble like the LeT and Wahhabis have the imagination and the technical sophistication to pull off such a hoax? Again, the jury is out on that question, too.

Now, let us consider the third and final scenario - that 26/11 was done by the LeT in collaboration with Arab extremist organizations that have been infiltrated by Western intelligence: This is a scenario that leads to uncomfortable questions and conclusions, so it is worthwhile looking carefully at its plausibility.

Does such infiltration occur? Yes, it does - in fact it occurs all the time. Look at here for an article (from "The Week", February 6, 2000) regarding an infiltration attempt by Western intelligence of the Tablighi Jamaat in Bangladesh. For another example of how intelligence agencies normally function, it is worthwhile looking at the recently unraveled plot to bomb synagogues in New York: FBI ‘lured dimwits’ into terror plot. I would also strongly urge everybody to watch this sober but hard hitting film on the 2005 London bombing: 7/7 Ripple Effect. It is packed with rare information and well worth watching right till the end.

In this scenario the threatening hoax phone call to Zardari becomes explicable: Western intelligence agencies definitely have the technical capability as well as the mind-set to do this.

What would the motivation of such a plot be? Well, Pakistani nuclear capability has become a headache to the West, and Indian nukes are not looked upon with much favour either. What better than to set off a war between the two? Also, the long-term global great game demands that obstacles be created to the emergence of any independent power with the potential of operating at the global level.

But then, what about the attack on the Chabad center? What about the many Western citizens that died in the hotels? Although that was painful, it would certainly have the effect of diverting attention away from any suspicions of Western complicity.

I would like to emphasize that I am not claiming that this is in fact what happened. However we do need to keep an open mind, and examine things dispassionately. It could have been some combination of the scenarios depicted above. Even six months after the event, it is far from clear what happened.


Last edited by Pranav on 04 Jun 2009 17:13, edited 13 times in total.

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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 14:04 
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Quote:
RamaY wrote

Cost of War:

Kargil War:

Financial Costs
Indian Military Expenses: Rs 10,000 crore (~$2B)
Impact on Indian Economy: Ambiguous. GDP growth at 6.5%. From the end of the war until February 2000, the Indian stock market rose by over 30%. The next Indian national budget included major increases in military spending. {Source: Wikipedia}

Human costs.
Indian Official Figures: 533 killed, 1,363 wounded, 1 POW
Pakistani Estimates: 357 - 4,000 killed (Pakistan troops), 665+ soldiers wounded, 8 POW.


Mumbai Terror Attack
Deaths 164 civilians and security personnel
Impact on Economy (Every 1% decline of BSE sensex = $10B, assuming a $1T market capitalization)

J&K Terrorism
Lives lost 60,000
Cost on Indian Economy???: >$1B/year for the past 20 years (This is the minimum amount IMO)


Certainly the cost to India has been enormous. We cannot come to understand the cost of this war. But Indian Politicians are weak. They dont have strategic thinking and are certainly not aggressive. Lets leave out congress party, as we have accepted that they wont do anything. What about BJP? Has BJP spelled out its Pakistan policy or its National Security Doctrine on terrorism.

What BJP does. It talks about hanging Afjal Guru, or anti-terror laws which is going to be misused. BJP is a party that does not want to tackle the problem of terrorism. It just wants to score political points out of the terrorism situation. It is BJP's government that did not strike at Pakistan in 1999 when the situation was ripe and the world would have accepted that strike very easily. They could have inflicted enormous damage inside POK. It would have been an enormous risk, given the nuclear angle, but if a telling blow would have been inflicted on Pakistan at that time it would have done great service to Indian security.

A right wing party has the responsibility to keep the country safe and not score political points from the misery of the country. Even today, BJP should declare that it will not support dialogue with Pakistan and communicate that properly. Atleast make the Congress government uneasy about the dialogue. But the fools that are there in BJP will again be beaten into a corner, as they wont have an alternative solution and the guts to spell out that solution.

BJP should clearly come out and say no dialogue with pakistan. BJP supports a military solution and put the money where its mouth is. BJP should do the following.

1. Support a military solution to the Pakistan Problem
2. Spell out the money and the timeframe in which that solution is achievable
3. Create an aggressive capability to conduct covert and overt war against Pakistan
4. Support assassination of big terrorists such as Dawood Ibrahim, Hafiz Saaed, Zarar Shah, Masood Azhar and get political support for it.

I am sure that there is enormous support within India for such an action and will bring goodwill for the BJP. BJP is a party that is more sound than substance. It does not know where to go and what to do.

Beyond the point of reprimanding BJP on its pakistan position. India just does not want to look at the pakistan problem the way it should look at it. In Hindu mythological terms I will say " Pakistan ke paap ka gadha baar chuka hain aur ab us ghade ke phutne ka samay aa gaya hain". Bhagwan Krishna did not kill Kansa till he created so much terror in the minds of Mathurawasi that it became impossible to not act against Kansa. But Indian public has not reached that position. They have the capacity to take more hits and more damage from pakistan. The media is comfortable with that position of more terrorist strikes. Few people believe that Pakistan ke paap ka gadha baar chuka hain. Indian public is still ready for more hits. India thinks very local so get ready for more hits, till the "paap ka gadha fills outs.

GET READY FOR A ROUGH RIDE IN THE NEXT DECADE.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 14:21 
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The entire Indian strategy of dealing with Pak and its two sponsors is wrong.Firstly,we-that is the myopic politico-babu combine, fondly imagine that Pak is a nation that plays by the rules of international diplomacy ,by its fielding a number of highly intellligent,western educated diplomats including many ex-armed forces veterans,whom I call the bow-tie brigade.We see some of them on its screens.They are the first line of deception.They lull the world into believing that despite its dreadful track record,Pak is on the side of the angels because of the western demeanour and style of these worthies who act as mouthpieces for the Paki establishment.Thus the Indian political establishment and babudom get taken in by words,which sound very reassuring when the Zardar utters them.We enter into lengthy talsk and negotiations both above and under the table,often relying on special envoys.

Having being lulled into expecting the situ to improve,Pak suddenly ups the ante by provocative statements from its leadership both civvie and military.We get all hot under the collar.Another round of talks begins with the same inevitable result.Terror attacks strike us where we least expect it and newer forms of anti-Indian terror.The west then joins handswith Pak in mouthing Kasmir as their magic bullet which they hope with enough leverage will bring India too its' knees.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 14:21 
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Pakistan the world's most dangerous country: Kilcullen


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 14:36 
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Philip wrote:
The entire Indian strategy of dealing with Pak and its two sponsors is wrong.Firstly,we-that is the myopic politico-babu combine, fondly imagine that Pak is a nation that plays by the rules of international diplomacy ,by its fielding a number of highly intellligent,western educated diplomats including many ex-armed forces veterans,whom I call the bow-tie brigade.We see some of them on its screens.They are the first line of deception.They lull the world into believing that despite its dreadful track record,Pak is on the side of the angels because of the western demeanour and style of these worthies who act as mouthpieces for the Paki establishment.Thus the Indian political establishment and babudom get taken in by words,which sound very reassuring when the Zardar utters them.We enter into lengthy talsk and negotiations both above and under the table,often relying on special envoys.

Having being lulled into expecting the situ to improve,Pak suddenly ups the ante by provocative statements from its leadership both civvie and military.We get all hot under the collar.Another round of talks begins with the same inevitable result.Terror attacks strike us where we least expect it and newer forms of anti-Indian terror.The west then joins handswith Pak in mouthing Kasmir as their magic bullet which they hope with enough leverage will bring India too its' knees.


The bow tie brigade can lull Obama, but it does not lull the bow tie brigade this side of the Sutlej!

So long as the khaddar blokes with grinning jackass smiles and the bow tie brigade out here have their heads screwed in the right direction, we shall not budge.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 14:50 
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Pranav,

I opt more for your second scenario.

I think Mumbai was a joint effort of

- Al Qaida, LeT, ISI acting autonomously but strongly protected by some influential elements in TSPA.

I think Al Qaida has no love and relatively moderate hate for Indians or Hindus. Their main hate is reserved for the House of Saud, the Great Satan, Israel and Iran in that order for the present moment.

LeT is a child of the ISI, but even as it still keeps strong connections with ISI, wants to get its hands on the big action. LeT as the child of ISI has inherited a full-scale hate for India, but has of late come under the sway of Al Qaida, and now has started to think globally, including absorbing the Arabs hate for the Jews etc.

ISI is still on its India-Destroy mission, is happy about the rising strength of its child the LeT and that the child has graduated into the Arab League, hoping that it can get the 'Arab League' to help Pakistan to destroy its old nemesis, India.

TSPA is the big elephant being pulled in all directions. Some (as in very few) in the Pakistani society want TSPA to make up with India. Its instinct and DNA says India is the main enemy. America wants TSPA as its hound, always willing to go and hunt for Al Qaida, who hate America. The Taliban mothers in TSPA want TSPA to go easy on their Pushtun children. The Jihadi Commanders within TSPA want TSPA to become a part and parcel of Global Jihad Inc. and hence do not object to TSPA's association with Al Qaida and are happy that Taliban and Al Qaida are playing together, and want TSPA to do the same. TSPA strategists are still obsessed with strategic depth, so want TSPA to continue to support the Afghan Taliban. The TSPA Army men keep showing everybody all the new hardware it needs to combat the Indians. The TSPA economists keep on shouting, that they cannot let go of America, as America ensures everybody's bread and butter.

My suggestion is that we open channels of communication with the Arabs and ask them to keep their leash on LeT and in the mean time we are willing to provide them some level of cooperation on transit, logistical, medical, safe haven facilities and keep the TSPA busy on the eastern front, so that they can have their proxies the TTP expand its operations in Pakistan.

In the end the terrorists striking India have two leashes - one from ISI/TSPA and one from the Arabs. If we can't get the ISI/TSPA to hold back their terrorists, then we have to negotiate with the other party with the leash - the Arabs, considering that we have opted for negotiations.

This should remain a party between the Pakjabis, Pushtun, Arabs and the Americans. We do not want to be dancing in this party. We will show up at 6 o'clock in the morning.

That is just my take of it.


Last edited by RajeshA on 04 Jun 2009 15:02, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 15:01 
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TSP promises action if in future Hafeez Saeed's action would be objectionable

Wonderful. TSP is simply toying with and teasing India.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 15:05 
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Jamaat-ud-Dawa/LeT is on its way to become the Hamas of Pakistan. TSPA is going the Fatah way - into oblivion. Hafiz Saeed needs to be taken down now, and not in two or three years.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 15:37 
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X Posted.

Lt. Col (Retd) Ralph Peters’ take on the release of Hafiz Sayeed.

Comes across as being dismissive of both Pakistan’s intention to fight terrorism as well as the US policy of supporting Pakistan :

Quote:
PULLING TERROR'S TEETH IN PAKISTAN

Posted: 1:27 am June 4, 2009

FIGHTING terrorists and insurgents resembles dental care: …………………..

Last month, Pakistan finally and belatedly admitted to itself that its terrorist problem had spread so deeply that at least one bad tooth had to be pulled. The military went into the Taliban-occupied Swat Valley in force. ………………….

As a result, I intended to write a column congratulating Pakistan's government on finally "getting it," encouraging the country's leaders to keep the pressure on our mutual enemies and, after catching a quick breath, to push beyond Swat into the frontier regions.

Then, on Tuesday, the Paks made a stinking mess: After murky court proceedings, the government released a terrorist chieftain, Hafiz Sayeed, the creator of Lashkar i-Taiba, the Islamist group behind the gruesome terror attacks in Mumbai last November.

The Indians are, justifiably, outraged. Once again, Pakistan protected a terrorist, knowing that we'll protect Pakistan.

We're dumber than dirt. Our leaders still don't grasp that the biggest hurdle for the Pakistani government in fighting the Taliban and its affiliates is that Islamabad adopted the Taliban in its infancy, then nurtured and raised it.………………


When we ask Pakistan to prosecute the campaign against the Taliban to the end, we're asking a mafia-run government to rub out the mafia. ……………….

Pakistan's intelligence services are so tied to terrorists that they now seem unsure of their basic loyalties.

India's outraged. Pakistan's smirking. Terror's thriving. We're daydreaming…………………

New York Post


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 15:41 
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By the low human rights standards set by Pakistan, mundanely routine stuff.

What however is moderately attention-worthy is the reaction of the Pakistan Police.

The Pakistan Police far from providing security to the threatened working women are reportedly pressuring the Telco’s to sack their female staff:

Quote:
Pressure on mobile cos in POK to terminate female staff

By: Salman Abduhoo | Published: June 04, 2009

LAHORE - Instead of ensuring equal job opportunities to women in a congenial and fully secure environment, law enforcement authorities are exerting pressure on cellular companies to terminate the services of their female staff in order to avoid the wrath of extremist groups active in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, The Nation learnt on Thursday.

Sources in the cellular companies confided to The Nation that in a letter sent to the local franchises of mobile phone companies doing business in the area, SP Poonch/Rawalakot, has instructed that all female staff must be relieved of their duties with immediate effect. …………………..

The Nation


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 16:06 
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CRamS,

I think you are overly pessimistic.We are dealing with Rakshasas.In Indian mythology,the Daiva forces has build up their competencies and wait for the right time to make the moves.The Evil forces have by then spent their energies and done grievous errors.

We cannot take on the combined might of Lizard and Amirkhan.Yet we can defend ourselves.We can improve internal security.We can increase awareness.

There is increased participation by various sections in national life.This invigorates national life.This strengthens GOIs hand in our international dealings.It also blows to smithreens the Recieved Gospel of the articulations of the Confucians and Anglo Saxon Protestants.Their propoganda loses the edge.The markets which keep their ears close to the ground are confident.

Regarding Kashmir,we have Farooq and Omar who are infinitely more credible than King Faisl or kammandu.They will play by the GOI script.We can be chankian too.The Congress will not change the status quo.And the status quo hurts bakis.Do not under estimate Dr MMS,Pranabda and Co.Any volte face by Congress means curtains for it as a political organisation.

We can have any number of chai-biskoot sessions and play Duplicitys game in our terms.

The amirkhans diabolically used the evidence of 26/11 and kabul embassy blasts to compel their al-lies to do the customary genocide by TSPA in Swat.We can be genuinely satisfied that a big section of the pashtun population near Punjab was given the 'treatment' by Pakjabi army.This will have far reaching consequences for the Pakjabis in their heartland.

In 'time' Nemesis will catch up with Bakis.Do not lose hope.Cheer up! :)


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 16:10 
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Avenue: G20 Press-Conference 3rd April, 2009

Times Now reporter Simrat Ghuman wrote:
Q: You met with our Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. What did you— what are you—what is America doing to help India battle terrorism emanating from Pakistan?


Barrack H. Obama wrote:
A: We did discuss the issue of terrorism. And we discussed it not simply in terms of terrorism emanating from Pakistan, although, obviously, we are very concerned about extremists and terrorists who have made camp in the boarder regions of Pakistan as well as in Afghanistan. But we spoke about it more broadly in terms of how we can coordinate effectively on issues of counterterrorism.

We also spoke about the fact that in a nuclear age, at a time when perhaps the greatest enemy of both India and Pakistan should be poverty, that it may make sense to create a more effective dialogue between India and Pakistan. But, obviously, we didn't go in depth into those issues.


Corollary: America doesn't care about terrorism directed at India.

Avenue: Islamabad, Richard Holbrooke's visit to Pakistan, June 3, 2009

Quote:
Q: Your comments on Hafiz Saeed's release!


Richard Holbrooke wrote:
I don't want to comment on the issue at this press conference. It is Pakistan's internal issue. That's all I can say


Corollary: America doesn't care about terrorism directed at India.

Quote:


Corollary: UK doesn't care about terrorism directed at India

COROLLARY: Why does India care a damn about terrorism directed at the West? It is time India and the Arabs sit down and talk!


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 16:15 
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X Posted.

Abdul Hamid Khan, Chairman Balawaristan National Front (BNF) on the links of the Pakistan Army and its subordinate organisation the ISI, to terrorist groups operating in Afghanistan, India and Pakistan itself :

Quote:
Thursday, June 4, 2009, Jamadi-ul-sani 10, 1430

Terrorism in South Asia

………… The so-called fight against terrorism by Pakistani Military is nothing but an exercise to make Taliban stronger and more aggressive. These Taliban and other terrorists can be used against India, Afghanistan, USA and other countries as a part of its future strategy, because Pakistani Military has no courage to fight directly. The war of Talibaan and that of Al-Qaeda are planned and implemented with full assistance from Pakistan Army and its ISI. To introduce Sharia throughout Pakistan in due course is pre-plan of Pakistan Army to get money both from USA and Saudi Arab. Everyone knows that the communication facility used by Talibaan without being interrupted is due to ISI Talibaan understanding, else how could one explain Taliban and Al Qaeda managing to deliver their propaganda material and how do they contact the media? This cannot be done without full support from the ISI. Why has Pakistani forces and its ISI failed to cut the militants’ supply lines; how journalists can talk to Fazlullah and other Talibaans but security forces are unable to trace them; how Sufi Mohammad was able to meet with Fazlullah along with heavy convoy.


Quote:
Instead of helping NATO forces the deployment of Pakistan Army along with the borders with Afghanistan is protecting Talibaan and Al-Qaida. In Swat, Pakistan, Pakistan Army is providing training to 700 Talibaan near a lake beyond Shangla Top towards Mingora in these days, and ISI terrorist camps in Astore and Ghowadi of Gilgit Baltistan are still intact. Al-Qaida and Talibaan come to Pakistan Army camps in Waziristan between 3-4 AM in the dark and take huge quantity of Ammunition and Arms by mules.


From:

Pakistan Observer


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 16:54 
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In 1960s America turned to Pakistan, and appeased its hate for India, losing India in the process to its most dreaded enemy, the Soviet Union.

In 2009 America turned to Pakistan, and appeased its hate for India, losing India in the process to its most dreaded enemy, ....

Obviously India's terrorist enemies are not America's terrorist enemies. The question is, is there any need for America's terrorist enemies to be India's terrorist enemies?

We should now start thinking out of the box. Nobody should be an untouchable any more.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 17:06 
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As long as the common Indian on the streets think that the common Pakistani is different than the extremist Pakistani, our national policy will always be confused. A majority of Indians actually believe that in time we can have friendly relations with Pakistan, that the Pakistanis will eventually 'see the light'. Such lame mindset of the our people is what will take us down. Because it means that Pakistan can do what it wants, but Indians will not see Pakistani people as their enemies but the TSPA & the Paki government. What needs to be done is the give all Indians a reality check on the kind of opinion the average Pakistani on the street has about India & Indians in general & how peace between India & Pakistan is like a wet dream. As long as this 'hope', however false it may be, exists in the minds of our people, you cannot expect any strong retaliation against the Pigs.

Someone here raised the point of mumbai elite & students protesting against Indian politicans & not against the real perpetrator - Pakistan. It was funny, to the point of being retarded. They were blaming everyone from the politicians, the police, bureaucracy & what not. There was no solid movement for a military retaliation against Pakistan. It's like someone broke into your house & raped your wife and you're blaming the carpenter for not making doors strong enough & the security guard for failing to spot the rapist.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 17:23 
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From the huffington post, an interview of Leon Panetta, the CIA chief.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-ga ... 05200.html

On the Drone Attacks in Pakistan

Quote:
Others, such as David Kilcullen, the counterinsurgency expert who advised General Petraeus in Iraq, don't see it that way. I asked Panetta what he thought of Kilcullen's case that the drone strikes have killed only 14 operatives while killing 700 civilians, thus causing an anti-American backlash in Pakistan more than disrupting Al Qaida.

His response:

These are covert, secret operations. So I can't go into particulars. Suffice it to say that the operations have been very effective because they have been very precise in terms of hitting targets with a minimum of collateral damage. Sometimes critics sweep [casualties] from other less- precise operations, for example F-16 jet strikes, that go into these areas and can cause collateral damage. In discussing this, I sometimes find that the numbers are mixed together. But I assure you that in terms of our strategy it is very precise and very limited in terms of collateral damage. And, very frankly, it is the only game in town in terms of trying to disrupt the Al Qaida leadership.


If I'm reading this right, drone attacks in TSP get a bad rep because the collateral damage caused by F-16s gets conflated with the casualty numbers by the drone strikes.

Doesn't that mean, in addition to drones, F-16s are being used to hit targets in TSP? American F-16s, not TSPAF F-16s


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 18:03 
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On How Swat Came Under Fazlullah's Control

Quote:
This is when the admittance came. They were honest, honest about the power of Mullah Radio and his constituency of women listeners. "There was peace in Swat. Shut in their homes many women listened to 'Raidu Mullah.' He addressed them directly. "He used to talk about Islam, about praying five times a day, about going to the madressah and learning the Quran. We all thought he was a good man." As his popularity grew, women would line up outside his madrassah and donate. They donated whatever little jewelry they had. Even the poorest women would donate her nose-pins.

This captive, gullible audience, shut in their homes became the main source of Mullah Radio's power and support. They encouraged their sons to join his madrassah. They provided the Taliban with a ready following. They provided them their sons which they soon realised were fodder, fodder for suicide bombings and 'jihad.' It was only when they realised and resisted this that the Taliban turned on their own people. "They would knock at our doors, and would say, 'give us your sons in the name of Islam'. Those who resisted were slaughtered."

Many said their families approached the army and the government for help. But nobody listened. A few said that anyone who informed the army did not live long. They kept quiet. Even today parts of their areas where the Taliban have fled to are not known to the army. They will not speak.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 19:31 
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RajeshA wrote:
Quote:

Corollary: UK doesn't care about terrorism directed at India

Let me correct it a bit.

Londonistan is shaking in her boots after pakis set off a few in the buses and trains. They need ISI help to track the pakis who go back to get some training of their own. Making too many noises about terrorists wanted by India is likely to piss the ISI off and make them refuse to cooperate after which londinstan can do diddly squat about terror.

It is more along the lines of "UK is covering its own musharraf".


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 19:45 
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Anujan ji,

The corollary still remains the same. The Global War on Terror turned out to be each country trying to ward off only the terrorists out to get that country. Cooperation in Counter-Terrorism has remained a non-starter.

My point is that all those who are targeting the West are not our problem. Our problem is the ISI-sponsored terrorists attacking India. We too need to simply focus on our enemies and our enemies alone and not get too carried away with civilizational enemies, Islamists, and all the rest.

West is not going to help us in our fight with ISI. In fact West is collaborating with those who sponsor terror against us in order to catch the ones attacking them.

I am saying, we should also have no inhibitions in cooperating or collaborating with those who sponsor terror against the West if it helps us get the intelligence to counter ISI-backed terrorists attacking India, which includes cooperating with some 'Arab undertakings'. If the West gets hit in the process, why do we need to care.

We need to have channels of communication and cooperation to the Arabs who love fireworks over Lahore and Pindi.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 20:00 
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rajeshji, the basic problem is still not addressed. the real issue is not pakistanis but islam. right now no country can hope to seed a rational thought into islam. a pakistan that collapses will collapse on india. i am not talking demographics. a whole bunch of taqqiyya and hudabiya artistes will collapse on us.

for islam nation states etc dont matter. forget sunni tftas of pakistan, progressive peaceful muslims, both shia and sunni of india will unite to hound out ahamediyas, and it was done.

again, the problem is not the theology but the refusal of a significant chunk of muslims to submit to the covenant of contemporary commons. only a certain medieval desert prophet they will listen to.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 20:09 
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the real issue is not pakistanis but islam. right now no country can hope to seed a rational thought into islam. a pakistan that collapses will collapse on india.

Dead right and spot on. No one hates Muslims. There are some within the community that take Jihad and Ghazwas seriously. This will be a problem forever till the core doctrine primarily is tackled """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""INTELLECTUALLY""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""!!!!

IF that is not done, we will ALL suffer terrorist attacks. There are NO TWO WAYS about this damned fact.

All those who shove this under the carpet, are complicit. Liberal, RSS, Hindutva, Conservative or WKK or whatever.

ISLAMS DOCTRINES WILL HAVE TO BE QUESTIONED REGARDING CURBING ISLAMIC TERROR/ TALIBAN/ ISI ETC.

Apologies. But its downright disgusting to see people who have no idea, no clue no knowledge about Islam, talking about terror or preventing it.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 20:27 
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shaardula ji,

Political Islam is a problem. The bigger problem in my opinion is the division of the kufr in tackling the smaller problem.

This division in the kufr will remain as long as Islam can play one against the other. At the moment Islam has been extremely successful.

- They have played on to the human rights, religious liberties, liberal immigration policies, colonial sins of the West to get a firm foothold in the day-to-day politics of the West. With that they also have got a certain influence on the foreign policy of the West. George W. Bush and Tony Blair were the last crusaders. Aprés les, la deluge!

- In India you have the sekoolar vote bank politics, which has paralyzed the whole polity of the nation.

- In Pakistan, they have the bow-tie brigade (borrowing Philip's terminology) fooling the powers-that-be in Washington, and pump greenbacks and military hardware from them.

- ISI has learned to play the double game. Increase the danger to the west through terrorist infrastructure, and then ask for hafta by helping them out with some little information on the dangerous.

- Obama is moving away from American support to Israel to licking the shoes of the Saudis, Iranians, Hamas and everybody else.

Everybody is being forced to look out for himself. Every major player, except may be China and Russia, have become somehow compromised in their security to the Islamists. Now the only way to break this duality is to bring out these conflict of interests and behavior into the open. At the moment, where it is right now, that is all hush-hush, all duplicity, it is harming India a great deal. Those who may want want to be India's friends, and whose strategic interests may even coincide with ours are not being allowed to do that out of real-politik, out of concern from terrorism against their own citizens, against concern for their own soldiers being held hostage in far away Afghanistan.

This Chakravyu needs to be broken. The only way to break this Chakravyu is to crush ISI over the heads of its customers and financiers, the Americans, the British, the Europeans, and others. In my view, it doesn't matter if for that one needs to take the help of the larger devil, Islamists, who are as extreme as its gets.

The Lahore bombings are pointers for us, as to who can be of help.

For the time being American and Indian interests are diametrically opposite. Only when Pakistan crumbles and America and rest of the West realizes that there is no more ISI and TSPA to hang on to, will there be any real progress in the 'Global War on Terror'.

At the moment the monster has many faces and cannot be fought, which makes it worse than a Hydra-headed monster. Only when the whole Kufr see the same face, will they be united to fight the beast.


Last edited by RajeshA on 04 Jun 2009 20:51, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 20:50 
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Quote:
by CRamS
Has there ever been another case in history where a civilization has been mowed down in
slow motion like this with the willing collaboration of the inhabitants themselves?



Many times.

Alexander to Abdali
Ghaznavi to British

This has all been the case. And thus we need non Thapar type Historian in charge of India rather than economists.,
and these historians can slowly pull indians out of this mess.


How hard is to understand that Everytime India makes money outsiders come in to steal it., as we do not
have adequate defense to protect the money.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 20:59 
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Obama seeks another $200 million for Pakistan

Quote:
US President Barack Obama has asked the Congress to approve another $200 million to address the emanating "serious humanitarian
crisis" in Pakistan, due to exodus of more than 2.5 million people from restive NWFP, escaping military operations against Taliban.


And btw money raised by yesterday's warm up match between TI and TSP was ostensibly meant for victims of attack in Lahore.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 21:00 
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Rajeshji,

I am a keyboard jehadi.(Stan copyright).But how on earth can we ever get the support of Arabs? I mean,i am not an expert,but how are we ever going to infiltrate the pashtun badlands or the arab wastelands.Who is going to do it?What will be their motivation? what can we offer them?

It is so easy for bakis because of the assymetry :(

Shaardulaji,

No point in whining about Islam.That is the way it is.The Pakis are a deviant breed who have turned their backs on India.Their hatred is something more than religious fanaticism.Religion was the starting point.But now it is a mental disease.Look how much we hate them.Their hatred is rubbing on us.

The Egyptians and Iraqis have no problem with us.Many Afghans including the Northern Alliance get along with us.

A certain section of Indians converted. Why? In most of the cases it was due to fear or favours granted.Their religion tore away the practitioners roots.This invariably created hatred for everything Indic.( A simplistic neverthless fairly accurate account) The British gave incentives for this separateness and hatred and later the Americans and Chinese. did the same.

Within India,the Congress used them as a votebank and later Samajwadis,CPM and RJD.

You cannot blame the religion alone in its Arabic context.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 21:05 
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Shaardula ji,
This must have been reiterated trillion times by Sridharji and Ramana garu.(The Kaabila).


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 21:30 
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krishnapremi wrote:
Rajeshji,

how are we ever going to infiltrate the pashtun badlands or the arab wastelands.Who is going to do it?What will be their motivation? what can we offer them?

It is so easy for bakis because of the asymmetry :(


Well we do have a conscience, a Gandhigiri, a playing by the book, a favorite-student problem! If we can overcome that, and say the means justifies the end, then the world is the limit. Are we willing to extend our hand to the devil for that? Only if we are willing to be devil's baap!

Any country with the resources of India can also play asymmetric warfare, if the country can find enough patriots and legal leeway for them.

India has much to offer the devil, if the devil is willing to cooperate!


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 21:36 
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Sorry. I was a bit unclear.Not easy for Indians to infiltrate.That is one issue.

What do we have to offer the Arabs.

The Anglo Saxons can offer the entire heathen land to the purelanders.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 21:49 
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CRamS wrote:
.........I don't know about entire govt of India, but sorry, I don't trust MMS. In my books he is a trai... amd a USA/western puppet........


CRS you have warned on this before.
Calling the elected PM of India a traitor without evidence is not acceptable.
you are being officially warned. kindly desist.
Rahul.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2009 21:57 
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krishnapremi wrote:
Sorry. I was a bit unclear.Not easy for Indians to infiltrate.That is one issue.

What do we have to offer the Arabs.


No need to think strategically all the time. Tactical help often goes a long way. We can take a leaf out of the Iranian book on this. They have often helped those tactically, whose strategic goals may lie in contradiction to Iranian goals.

krishnapremi wrote:
The Anglo Saxons can offer the entire heathen land to the purelanders.


There is also no more heathen land on offer. Times have changed.


Last edited by RajeshA on 04 Jun 2009 22:00, edited 1 time in total.

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