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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 07:49 
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AQK stopped from attending his granddaughter's graduation
Reason: There were foreign diplomats at the graduation ceremony.

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ISLAMABAD: Security agencies stopped Dr A.Q. Khan, the nuclear scientist, from attending a function in the federal capital on Sunday after receiving ‘reports’ that ‘some foreign diplomats’ would also be present there.


Quote:
But at the last moment officials said they could not allow him to visit the school on ‘security grounds’.


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They have been very mean to me’ the scientist bemoaned. ‘My wife has been crying at this cruelty.’


I guess the pookies are afraid the "scientist" may be planning to speak out.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 08:05 
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Dir is in NWFP. Most likely the TSPA was used to quell some uprising in those two years.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 08:07 
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Quote:
‘some foreign diplomats’


Heh-heh! Guruswamy Goldstein Gorbachevski Gandolfo, the RAW-MOSSAD-KGB-CIA "Rendition" team. :shock: I hear the plane was waiting.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 09:55 
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Report: U.S. Planned to Buy Bombed Peshawar Hotel

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As a colleague here at The Times points out, the Pearl Continental hotel in Peshawar, Pakistan, which was partly destroyed on Tuesday by a massive car bomb, is well known locally as a meeting point for not just wealthy Pakistanis, foreign aid workers and journalists but also intelligence agents. In other words, it is the sort of place a modern-day Graham Greene novel might be set, with security so tight that even the lifeguards at the hotel pool are armed with AK-47s.

Given that reputation, the hotel was an obvious target for militants — even before a report surfaced two weeks ago that the United States was planning to buy the hotel as part of a plan to greatly expand its diplomatic presence in the city. As the Press Trust of India reported on Tuesday, the Pearl Continental is currently owned by Sadruddin Hashwani, who also owns the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad, which was bombed last September, resulting in more than 50 deaths.
According to a report by Saeed Shah and Warren P. Strobel of McClatchy Newspapers, the hotel was apparently at the center of an American plan to establish a long-term presence in Peshawar, the capital of Pakistan’s North-West Frontier Province:

A senior State Department official confirmed that the U.S. plan for the consulate in Peshawar involves the purchase of the luxury Pearl Continental hotel. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to speak publicly. [...]

Peshawar is an important station for gathering intelligence on the tribal area that surrounds the city on three sides and is a base for al Qaida and the Taliban. The area also will be a focus for expanded U.S. aid programs, and the American mission in Peshawar has already expanded from three U.S. diplomats to several dozen.

In October 2001, a report in Time magazine described how the Pearl Continental fit into the cloak-and-dagger atmosphere of Peshawar, the city “where the terrorists meet, form cells and deploy — and where access to the closed world of the Taliban begins. Bin Laden’s foot soldiers regularly slip through the walled enclaves and jostling bazaars to recruit jihadis or send out instructions. Taliban fighters float through to spy and resupply. Every Afghan faction has its representative in some dim house. Intelligence agents linger in the lobby of the Pearl Continental Hotel, where the phones are tapped and drivers let fall scraps of information.”

As with the attack on the headquarters of the Pakistani intelligence service in Lahore on May 27, the bombing on Tuesday seems to have taken place at a site that militants knew to be central to the operations of the intelligence agencies fighting to defeat them.


On the other hand, it may also be possible that now US can start its construction totally ground up and may have cleared up the place.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 09:58 
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US delivers four MI-17 cargo helicopters to the (pakistan) Army


http://www.casr.ca/ft-helo-again-1.htm

Even NATO Chiefs – both political and military – have now joined the chorus of calls for leased medium - lift helicopters for use in Afghanistan. The helicopter in the spotlight is the Russian-made Mil (the earlier - model Mi-8s and the newer Mi-17s). The reason that these medium - lift Mils became the lease-helicopter of choice is a combination of availability and ease of acquiring the insurance (both for aircraft and civilian aircrew). Even still, the mere thought of employing Russian military equipment is unpopular with many Western soldiers.

But the Mils are currently being used by the Afghan National Army (ANA). (Their Mi-17 training is carried out in Texas.) In addition, these helicopters are in widespread military service in Eastern Europe. In fact, Poland has just responded to NATO's call for tactical lift with a promise to deploy eight more helicopters to Afghanistan. Of these, four will be medium-lift Mi-17s which the Poles purchased used specifically for the Afghan mission.

[Update: On 04 Feb 2008, Macleans.ca reported Polish Foreign Minister, ‘Radek’ Sikorski saying that two of their Mi-17s in Afghanistan were to be “... at the disposal of Canada”.]


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 10:01 
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Satya_anveshi wrote:
Report: U.S. Planned to Buy Bombed Peshawar Hotel

Quote:
the Pearl Continental is currently owned by Sadruddin Hashwani, who also owns the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad, which was bombed last September.


Poor chap :shock:
But that is the retribution that you get for sleeping with pakistan's enemy.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 13:04 
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AbhishekD wrote:
Certainly I am serious. What do you suggest is the solution. Butchering those people. The only solution is political and a creation of living condition that makes their life better.


First of all the war itself is not an outflow of "living standards" but a assiduously stoked war, an artificial war, so artificial that no one knows who is on which side.

Is it US+TSPA against Taliban
Is it ISI+Taliba against US+Whiskey drinkers
Is it TSPA+Taliban taking US for a ride
Is it TSPA+Taliban+US taking everyone else for a ride

Questions -- questions....

In such a scenario bring the standard liberal "root cause" argument that they apply to the problem they create for us (first create and stoke a fire and then stand back and restrain us from solving it under the fraud "root cause" arguments) was a piece of delicious irony for me.

Yes, Indeed the Taliban problem is not going to go away till the NWFP is integrated in the democratic world with the proper western democratic traditions.

:rotfl: :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 13:53 
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CCTV record of Pearl Continental Bomb blast


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 14:23 
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Quote:

Sanku wrote:

First of all the war itself is not an outflow of "living standards" but a assiduously stoked war, an artificial war, so artificial that no one knows who is on which side.

Is it US+TSPA against Taliban
Is it ISI+Taliba against US+Whiskey drinkers
Is it TSPA+Taliban taking US for a ride
Is it TSPA+Taliban+US taking everyone else for a ride

Questions -- questions....

In such a scenario bring the standard liberal "root cause" argument that they apply to the problem they create for us (first create and stoke a fire and then stand back and restrain us from solving it under the fraud "root cause" arguments) was a piece of delicious irony for me.

Yes, Indeed the Taliban problem is not going to go away till the NWFP is integrated in the democratic world with the proper western democratic traditions.


I did not understand what you were trying to suggest. But whether you accept it or not that the people of NWFP have been deviously used by the powers be it that does not change the fact that the only longterm solution is to brings peace in that region. Now it is a seperate matter as to how peace should be brought. There are ways as to how peace should be brought. Afghanistan was a lost cause just 10 years ago. It is turning around through humanitarian work and judicous approach. NWFP also needs the same, probably after the dismantling of pakistan or after decisive victory against pakistan.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 16:14 
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Militants show sophisticated tactics in Pakistan

Quote:
The level of organisation and sophistication of the attacks has been rarely seen in Pakistan. They are designed to send a message that if the military launches an offensive against the Taliban's stronghold near the Afghan border it will face a highly determined and well-prepared enemy, analysts say.


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Peshawar and Lahore attacks mark a shift in strategy for the militants, whose attacks previously have often involved lone assailants with suicide vests, small improvised bombs or gun ambushes.


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‘It appears that they are in a hurry and they are becoming more aggressive.’ The rush may be due to a widespread expectation that the military is planning to launch a major operation against the Taliban in the tribal areas of North and South Waziristan.


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‘It seems that they are now going for a head-on collision’ with the government, he said.


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Bruce Hoffman, a terrorism expert at Georgetown University in Washington, said such tactics have been used before by Pakistani militant groups fighting against Indian rule in the disputed Himalayan territory of Kashmir, but they have been limited in scope because of the level of military precision required.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 16:24 
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small ied mubarak onlee

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slamabad: One person was killed and 35 hurt in a train blast Thursday in Pakistan's Balochistan province, a media report said. The blast occurred in the third carriage of the Bolan Express traveling from Karachi to Quetta, Geo TV reported.


Manmohan to meet Zardari in Russia

Quote:
New Delhi, June 11 (IANS) Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is set to meet Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari in the Russian city of Yekaterinburg next week. Their first meeting since the Mumbai terror attacks will be more of an ice-breaker and is unlikely to lead to an immediate resumption of stalled dialogue between the two countries.

“They are sure to meet. But it has not been decided what form it will take, whether it will just be a handshake or a one-on-one with no structured agenda,” a highly-placed government source told IANS on the condition of anonymity.

“It will be primarily a courtesy call,” the sources said. “There is no change in India’s position about not resuming talks till Pakistan takes tangible action against the perpetrators of the Mumbai carnage and dismantles the infrastructure of terrorism.”

Former foreign secretary Salman Haidar told IANS: “It would be normal for the two leaders to meet as they are going to be in the same city. I expect that the meeting would take place.

“The prime minister should meet and tell Zardari to convince India that something is being done on the ground to take action against terorrism and anti-India terror groups, specially those involved in the Mumbai attack.”


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 16:27 
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Gentle readers of BR, I would like to invite you to consider this fundamental question yet again.

What holds Pakistan together?

Belief in Islam?
Common home of subcontinent's Muslims?
The foreign Benefactors - US, Saudia and China?
A shared common cultural identity?
OR
The Pakistani Army

It is important to take a look at this, when pakistan today is at cross roads of its existence. When the country was formed, the above list was true to some extent and were all factors for keeping the state of pakistan together.

60 plus years later, this is not the case anymore. I would like to submit that the first four reasons are not valid anymore in the context of pakistan. At least, as reasons, their value is getting eroded by the day.

Still the state survives and the rest of the world still sees value in its survival. But much as the rest of the world may want this artificial state to survive, the internal compulsions will make it more and more difficult.

What is the only institution or reason left for Pakistan to hold together - the Pakistani Army. It has 2 roles to play as I see it.

1. To keep the peace between warring groups not by being above board and bipartisan, but simply by carrying the biggest stick amongst them all and wielding it ruthlessly.

2. To be the rogue police force amongst rogues that the western world wants to tolerate by bribing sometimes and by threatening sometimes so that the police keeps the other rogues from coming out and harming them.

If therefore, the only thing holding Pakistan today is the Pakistani Army, does not the present situation in Pakistan an opportunity to the GOI to bring down this artificial construct of a country that exists purely to fight India?

How is that one may ask? By relentlessly targetting the Pakistan Army. Make them take unpopular stands in order to save the disintegrating state. Unpopular stands with respect to the constituent elements/nationalities that constitute pakistan and unpopular stands with respect to their benefactors at the same time.

This is the opportunity that India has. It has to play a nuanced game here. Do we have what it takes to sieze this opportunity or are we going to keep quiet, let things drift, and hope for the best?

On the other hand, trusting pakistan to screw itself is not a bad thing actually if you think about it. They have done a far better job of it than India can.

Interesting debate isn't it gentle readers?


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 16:28 
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We (pukistan) are in deep doo-doo
It's someone else's fault, not ours!
Of course.

Managing the economy

Quote:
WE do not seem to be doing anything serious at present except obeying the IMF.


Quote:
The ADB has now said that Pakistan is living beyond its means. Why was it quiet when Shaukat Aziz’s financial prime ministership was doing so through his policy of liberalisation, deregulation and privatisation?


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Mr Aziz even ignored the need to increase power generation capacity, which is currently causing a lot of chaos.


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Shaukat Aziz was a very successful Citi banker. He has now been succeeded by two Citi bankers in the finance ministry and the State Bank. It can be presumed that they are intelligent individuals.


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We need to improve our export earnings. This means boosting productivity and exploring new markets. This requires educational back-up, not of PhDs but appropriate training at various levels. As far as formal education is concerned, we need to improve the quality of our universities. Unfortunately, we have had semi-literate rulers most of the time.


Here's an equal-equal gem:

Quote:
As far as Pakistan’s governments are concerned, we have only dictatorships. There are military dictatorships and, after 1971, elected civilian dictatorships. The kind of constitutions adopted by India and ourselves lend themselves to this state of affairs.


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ZAB reduced the bureaucracy from a level of some genuine competence to almost desperate obedience.


Quote:
As far as our political leadership is concerned, the Muslim shopkeeper in the US who converted a dicey intruder and named him Nawaz Sharif Zardari embodies the element of popular prejudice.


:roll:


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 16:31 
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Raja Ram wrote:
What holds Pakistan together?


One factor that "holds" the pukies together is that they are not welcome anywhere else.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 16:50 
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Raja Ram wrote:
Gentle readers of BR, I would like to invite you to consider this fundamental question yet again.

What holds Pakistan together?



Primarily the US.

The system in the world is to accept "nation states" as valid concepts with fixed borders whose defence is the right of the nation state.

In other words when a nation state is accorded recognition, the designated leaders of that nation state are "awarded" with a map showing borders that enclose the territory that belongs to them.

The US has consistently

1) recognised Pakistan as a valid nation state with its given borders
2) recognised the Pakistan army as the genuine owner/protector of that valid nation state
3) Funded and armed that army for several decades
4) Opposed any effort to disempower the army
5) Encouraged belief that democratic entities other than the army can actually lead Pakistan

The US has its reasons for doing this. The US needs to be opposed directly Nothing else will work.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 16:54 
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Raja Ram,

See answer in "Indian interst" thread.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 17:16 
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AbhishekD wrote:
Afghanistan was a lost cause just 10 years ago.


Afganistan is not turning around or anything, it is held together by a string, a string on Nato forces.

If this is the sort of long term solution you want for NWFP, I have no issues with replicating the Afganistan model. Think about it for a while what that means though.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 17:19 
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Earlier in the day the news was

Commandos deployed on trains
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/metropolitan/12-commandos-deployed-on-trains-for-added-security--bi-02

Later in the evening the news is
One killed, 35 hurt in Pakistan train blast

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?a=jglqWUchdab&title=One_killed_35_hurt_in_Pakistan_train_blast&scategory=features&?vsv=TopHP1


Last edited by vdas on 11 Jun 2009 17:26, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 17:21 
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shiv,

You are right that US is primarily responsible. But I would submit not wholly responsible, because from mid eighties, it the PRC is also equally if nor more responsible for arming and sustaining Pakistani Army including providing nukes and missiles.

My contention is that while the US still wants a united Pakistan, it is now also considering a break up of the country for sure, at least take the pashtuns out of the equation and give a new country for them that straddles both sides of the Durand line. As I said, the foreign benefactors were an important reason for holding pakistan together and that is still the case but it is eroding.

My submission is that if there is a shift inside pakistan that see PA as an illegitimate entity that is killing its own people rather than its traditional image as the ultimate protector of pakistan, then pakistan will break up even if the foreign benefactors do not like it. This can happen because for the second time in its history, the edifice of Pakistan itself is slowly getting questioned.

In 1971, it resulted in its bifurcation, if more regions question the utility of Pakistan this time, it will implode. And if the people of these regions see the PA as the only enemy in the way that is proping up this useless artificial construct called Pakistan, it can be brought down.

Till the end of Musharaff era, there was a minimum common programme between the groups that control pakistan and between the foreign backers as well. That is gone now. What remains to hold the state together is the Army.

You are right in saying that the US will continue to want a united pakistan if there is an army that does its bidding. If the situtation changes that the army cannot deliver even if it wants, I believe the US will be willing to let Pakistan implode.

Hence my contention, that Indian and US interests does not converge when it comes to Pakistan. It does not mean that we have to directly oppose the US, but we can quitely pursue our own interest with respect to Pakistan. The situation in pakistan demands that we look at the possibility seriously.

Beyond this I do not want to expand in an open forum. I am sure gurus here can catch the drift where I am heading.

anupmishra,
You have a point, no one wants them, better have a hell hole called pakistan and keep them there, busy killing each other.

NRao,
Didn't see any specific reply on the other thread. My purpose is to point out what now stands between Pakistan and its disintegration - increasingly only Pakistani Army. That is my contention.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 17:22 
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News for the binori piss institute and the WKK crowd.
pakistanis 'cricket fans' who were allowed to enter india turn out to be spies who are sending back info so that future terrorist outrages are planned.
Nothing new for those who know about the paki character which talks about peace and funds & trains terrorists.

Missing Pak nationals posing security threat
Quote:
The recent arrest of a Pakistan national from Kanpur Dehat, Waqqas Ahmed, exposes the looming danger posed by 'missing' Pakistan nationals who come to India and 'forget' to return home.

Waqqas Ahmed came to India for 'watching' the Indo-Pak cricket series in 2005, but did the vanishing act thereafter. Now that his ISI credentials are confirmed, the law enforcers have the onerous task of tracing his aides. The Uttar Pradesh intelligence wing has sent a fresh 'lookout' notice to all the districts for tracking the missing 28 Pak nationals who accompanied Waqqas in 2005. Additional Director General of Police(crime,law and order) Brijlal said a new directive has been issued recently to find out the missing Pakistani nationals in the state.

Quote:
The Union Home Ministry had earlier found out that of the hundreds of Pakistanis who came over to watch the Indo-Pak series in 2005, 31 went missing. Subsequently, the Intelligence Bureau issued a 'lookout' notice with their names, snapshots and other details.

Quote:
To evade detection, the ISI had asked those modules to earn a living in the country instead of banking on their financial assistance. Instead, their families, back in Pakistan, were being supported financially by the ISI.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 17:24 
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shiv wrote:
Primarily the US.


No debate here, Raja Ram says Pakistani Army holds Pakistan together which you say is held together by US.

All fine -- I still cant understand whats the reason for current mayhem in Pakistan though -- why are parts of Pakistani brood all hatched initially by CIA itself being forced to fight with each other.

Yes I know they are a little upset about 9/11 and unlike us adjusting Indians are adjusting the rest of perpetrators for the act --- however there appears to be no clear goal that US is serving for itself by causing the continuing mayhem in Pakistan, forcing various of its own instruments to damage themselves.

What is happening here wise folks?


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 17:25 
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India should definitely reject any petitions by US on restarting peace talks with Pakistan.

Before 2004, it was the Pakistani Army that held the most cards in hand regarding terrorist bombings in India through their proxies LeT, JeM, Harkut-ul-Mujahideen, etc. All these groups were fully owned subsidiaries of the Pakistani Army, with strong associations to Al-Qaida, which was tolerated, even encouraged by ISI to increase the level of Islamic Jihadist conviction, and to increase their logistical reach.

I genuinely doubt, that at the moment when Pakistan is going after the TTP, which had support from many Arab groups, Uzbeks, Uighurs, Chechens, etc., that Al Qaida will be in love with their TSPA counterparts. So many militant organizations are at the moment under dual pulls, from TSPA and from Al Qaida.

Mumbai Terror Attacks, IMHO, was the work of LeT at the prodding of Al Qaida and complicity of some ISI generals with the main reason to pull Indian troops to the Indo-Pak border, which would have given the TSPA both an excuse and relief from not having to face the Taliban in Pakistan or do US bidding on curtailing the activities of the Afghan Taliban. That did not come to pass, because our 'Chanakyan' PMO and NSA saw through this plan!

Now both TSPA and Al Qaida/TTP combine are in a tussle in NWFP+FATA! The group that perpetrated the Mumbai attacks did go away with medals for a successful attack, but with little else. They could not prevent that TSPA goes to war with the TTP, and have to live with the fact, that India will not increase our troops on the border, which would have caused TSPA to move much of their troops there too.

However another round of peace talks and WKK orgies would definitely allow TSPA for a short time to make even more troops from the border available for their fight for control of the area, which would not be liked by the groups like TTP who are already under severe pressure. In this case, the chances that the groups, who perpetrated the Mumbai Terror Attacks, would again attack India, will increase, and WE DON'T WANT THAT.

Attacking Pakistan right now or at any other given moment, will bring the Islamist forces together. TSPA and Al Qaida/TTP will again luncheon together. However just increasing the Indian forces on the border, putting up a threatening posture, would mean that the Islamist forces continue with their internal deathmatch, and we can give our favorite celebrity a shot in the arm, a little leg up, and I believe that favorite would not be the TSPA. At least we should be keeping the forces at their current levels on the border.

At the moment TSPA is busy and would not want more LeT attacks in India. They do not want to come under fire from two sides. So they will keep back for the moment. We only have to ensure that India too keeps back from giving Al Qaida a reason to attack India. SO PLEASE NO MORE TALKS WITH THE PAKIS!

As long as TSPA and Al Qaida/TTP are in a fight, we should not show any inclination towards Pakistan, firstly because TSPA is our enemy and we want our enemy to get a bloody nose, and secondly because a bout of friendship right now, would make us more vulnerable to terror attacks.

Basically America is asking us to become their sponge, and we don't want that, do we?

We have a perfect reason to resist talks, regardless of what US says. Let us use it.

Right now, when the opponent is under siege, what we don't want is a Prithviraj Chauhan moment in Delhi. What we don't want is the GoI to develop a mood of magnanimity towards the TSPA, hoping that they will remember this gesture of friendliness and repay India with enduring peace and cooperation. This time it is time to go for the kill! Magnanimity can be shown when TSPA have morphed into Pakjab Self-Defence Forces, someday in the future!

The more TSPA come under attacks from TTP and Al Qaida, the more it will be willing to cozy up to India, and we should be there giving them some polite platitudes, but we should not be the ones to pull their marbles our of the fire. The more their marshmallows roast the more they will mellow towards India. Show no haste!


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 19:47 
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Interesting article (apologies if it has been posted earlier)

Partition of India: Pakistan and Islam


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 20:41 
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RajeshA, I agree with oyur post except that the Mumbai attacks were L-e-T and ISI. No AlQ. AlQ has no India hand.


Quote:
Mumbai Terror Attacks, IMHO, was the work of LeT at the prodding of Al Qaida and complicity of some ISI generals with the main reason to pull Indian troops to the Indo-Pak border, which would have given the TSPA both an excuse and relief from not having to face the Taliban in Pakistan or do US bidding on curtailing the activities of the Afghan Taliban. That did not come to pass, because our 'Chanakyan' PMO and NSA saw through this plan!


There is still the possiblity of 'flash point' hype that cannot be ruled out.

Also keep the terrorist groups in their correct pigeon holes or it will look like all are just birds when there are hawks and vultures onlee.

Also the IDP situation is highlighting the fractures more clearly. The Sarkari Pashtuns are also realizing that there is no love for even them.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 21:05 
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Shiv wrote:
The US has consistently

1) recognised Pakistan as a valid nation state with its given borders
2) recognised the Pakistan army as the genuine owner/protector of that valid nation state
3) Funded and armed that army for several decades
4) Opposed any effort to disempower the army
5) Encouraged belief that democratic entities other than the army can actually lead Pakistan


Shiv ji,

Whatever the reasons US has to follow the above-mentioned policy towards TSP.. What are the reasons for India not doing the opposite of the above-mentioned five points? I do not think it is about INC-MMS govt policy.. Even Vajpayee government did not derecognize the TSP and TSPA...

What does India not

1. Declare TSP as terrorist state and TSPA as terrorists.
2. Declare the terrorism emanating from TSP as terrorist state sponsored activities.
3. Decrease the trade relations with those nations or blacklist those nations who aid TSP.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 21:08 
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Will get labeled as Hindutva govt.

Recall in India

nationalist = Hindutvaa


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 21:15 
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ramana wrote:
RajeshA, I agree with oyur post except that the Mumbai attacks were L-e-T and ISI. No AlQ. AlQ has no India hand.


Quote:
Mumbai Terror Attacks, IMHO, was the work of LeT at the prodding of Al Qaida and complicity of some ISI generals with the main reason to pull Indian troops to the Indo-Pak border, which would have given the TSPA both an excuse and relief from not having to face the Taliban in Pakistan or do US bidding on curtailing the activities of the Afghan Taliban. That did not come to pass, because our 'Chanakyan' PMO and NSA saw through this plan!


There is still the possiblity of 'flash point' hype that cannot be ruled out.

Also keep the terrorist groups in their correct pigeon holes or it will look like all are just birds when there are hawks and vultures onlee.


I made an assumption, that both Al Qaida and TSPA would have wanted to avoid a confrontation, and hence they sent their common offspring LeT to do the macabre act. The second assumption I made, was that the attacks on Chabad House against the Jews, must have had a background and reason.

- Either LeT wants to underscore their Islamic credentials and their availability in the Pan-Islamic causes and they acted independent of Al Qaida, or
- this being a joint venture between ISI and Al Qaida, Al Qaida insisted on Jewish fatalities for its approval and sanction.

There were some reports by, I believe, Syed Saleem Shahzad of the Asia Times Online, that Zaki ur Rehman Lakhvi had been recruited by Al Qaida, or something on these lines. Difficult to know how much truth lay in those reports.

However Al Qaida sponsorship was not central to the theory.

Quote:
Also the IDP situation is highlighting the fractures more clearly. The Sarkari Pashtuns are also realizing that there is no love for even them.


I am not so sure on this. There are reports of 'Lashkars' fighting alongside the Pakistani Army. I presume the Sarkari Taliban are being referred to as Lashkars, so as not to invite criticism from America, that Pakistan and Taliban factions still do business. TSPA does not want to destroy the Taliban. They just want to uproot the weed in their Taliban rose garden, that doesn't listen to High Command in Pindi.

Lashkar intensifies assault on Taliban in Upper Dir by Syed Zahid Jan: Dawn


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 21:29 
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U.S. supports dialogue between India and Pakistan

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NEW DELHI, June 11 (Reuters) - The United States wants India and Pakistan to resume peace talks, but would leave it to the two countries to decide the way forward, a U.S. official said on Thursday.

"The scope and the character of that dialogue is something for Indian and Pakistani leaders to decide on how and when to approach that dialogue," Undersecretary of State William Burns told a news conference after talks with Indian leaders.


Quote:
"United States has always welcomed a dialogue between India and Pakistan and welcomed better relations between those two countries," Burns said, shortly after meeting Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.


US wants wishes of Kashmiris to be considered

Quote:
New Delhi, June 11 (PTI) The US today pushed for resumption of Indo-Pak dialogue while emphasising that the resolution of the Kashmir issue should take into account the "wishes" of the people of the state, resonating Pakistan's view.
US Under Secretary of State William Burns told a press conference here after discussions with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh that the "pace, scope and character" of the Indo-Pak dialogue, suspended since the Mumbai terror attacks, be decided by the leaders of the two countries.

"The US has always welcomed dialogue between India and Pakistan. But it is also obvious that pace, scope and character of that dialogue is something Indian and Pakistani leaders have to decide. And how and when to approach that dialogue is also something for them to decide," he said.
Burns, the first high-ranking US official to visit India after the recent elections, handed over a letter from President Barack Obama to Singh but declined to divulge its content.

In response to a question on Kashmir, Burns said "it remains our view that resolution of the Kashmir issue has to take into account wishes of Kashmiri people." On Mumbai terror attacks, the US official said Pakistan has a special responsibility to bring the perpetrators to justice and take "concrete steps" to ensure there is "no repeat" of it. PTI


There you have it..from the horses mouth.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 21:49 
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Yes and Kashmir people have their representatives in the J&K Assembly to express their wishes. So what?

The question is not whether USA has some ready-made general abstract quote on Kashmir for public consumption that matters. What matters is their policies, and Obama, at least after becoming President, has not put Kashmir on the table as yet. We too are not discussing Diego Garcia with them.

USA has/had thousands of quotes for China on human rights, on Taiwan, on Tibet, etc. Nobody gives a damn about them anymore. We should stop being too sensitive on Kashmir. Lets just show everybody the middle finger, without getting upset and everything.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 21:52 
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Chiron wrote:

Whatever the reasons US has to follow the above-mentioned policy towards TSP.. What are the reasons for India not doing the opposite of the above-mentioned five points? I do not think it is about INC-MMS govt policy.. Even Vajpayee government did not derecognize the TSP and TSPA...

What does India not

1. Declare TSP as terrorist state and TSPA as terrorists.
2. Declare the terrorism emanating from TSP as terrorist state sponsored activities.
3. Decrease the trade relations with those nations or blacklist those nations who aid TSP.


When I said that India needs to oppose the US directly this is one of the things that I meant, but...merely doing this will not change the ways of the US and will not make Pakistan weaker.

India has to go beyond this and be overtly critical of the US. India needs to challenge the US directly.

However I don't think India is not doing this because of fear of being declared "Hindutva". The real reason might be that India is really weak and there is no way India can antagonise the US that has too many eggs in its basket.

India just does not have the will power to pour money into becoming a superpower military state challenging the US given that it has x00 million people without clean water supply, a similar huge number without homes, basic healthcare and sanitation.

India is "weak" by a lot of standards. the toss up is between spending India's wealth on building up the military to 5 times its current strength to stare everyone down while ignoring all those hundreds of millions - who may then revolt. or doing what India is doing now. That is, admitting its weaknesses and playing the few cards it has.

We need to look at this as a possible explanation of what we are seeing.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 22:00 
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shiv wrote:
India is "weak" by a lot of standards. the toss up is between spending India's wealth on building up the military to 5 times its current strength to stare everyone down while ignoring all those hundreds of millions - who may then revolt. or doing what India is doing now. That is, admitting its weaknesses and playing the few cards it has.
We need to look at this as a possible explanation of what we are seeing.


Rao Knew this, Vajpayee knew this and MMS knows this. We did well against Pakis in 1970s but then 1980s became our lost decade. The need is to balance our growth with the need for security, both are important and doing this is certainly a thankless job. Vajpayee recognized the need for strong growth for countering Pakistani agenda and thus gave 8% growth mantra. The result is we are now accustomed to 8% growth and hopefully MMS shall come out with some new hyper growth mantra to successfully make our population healthy, richer and literate. Then we shall take on the neighbour-e-left and neighbour-e-right on our own terms.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 22:04 
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1) Amirkhans should know that Kashmir process only starts when each and every displaced Kashmiri Hindu is settled in its place as first measure.
2) Whole of J & K becomes the integral part of India as per Constitution of India.
3) Each and every terrorist base and puki army makes a rat run from whole of J and K.
4) Pukes liberates Balochi's, Pashtun's and Sindhi's as per the aspirations of the people.
5) Tibet should be liberated as per the aspirations of people of tibet.

If these things are followed then we will move forward on looking at what are the aspirations of J & K people are.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 22:06 
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Yes and the weak do asymmetric warfare and use plausible deniability. For that there is a huge scope, if only we did less of 'good' things and more of right things.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 22:09 
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RajeshA wrote:

The question is not whether USA has some ready-made general abstract quote on Kashmir for public consumption that matters. What matters is their policies, and Obama, at least after becoming President, has not put Kashmir on the table as yet. We too are not discussing Diego Garcia with them.

We should stop being too sensitive on Kashmir. Lets just show everybody the middle finger, without getting upset and everything.



We are sensitive because we are depending on US to stop TSP from their terrorist hanky panky against us. And US, sensitive to TSP, cannot do more than mouth innaities when TSP attacks India and cries Kashmir. Thats the problem. India expects consistency from US, i.e., terror and talks, terror and poitical grievances cannot go hand in hand; just as US adopts that stand when it comes its interests or those of its western lackeys and Israel. India expects US to view TSP like it views Iran or Somalia or any of their 'bad guys'. But US says India TSP equal equal onlee; and naturally, that makes us sensitive. But as Shiv pointed out, this frustration and perhaps rabid impotent anger in private cannot translate into any public challenge to USA given our abject weaknesses.

USA has effecvtively told India, forget Mumbai, surrender to our TSP allies because that is in our interests. And India and Indians like me can do nothing but seethe with impotent rage. Very sad and pathetic.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 22:25 
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Good election results in the form of good number of Lok sabha MPs is a mandate to grow ball$. If there is an intent to grow ball$ this is the right time to stand up to unkil and say FO on Kashmir issue. Unkil has too many issues on hand, India is not a scape goat to sacrifice at the altar of TSP. The problems of TSP and Unkil are their own creation of the genius presidents Carter, Regan namely inducing religion into geo political wars.

MMS has the mandate but will he be Man enough to draw the line. Learn from SL Indian leaders.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 22:27 
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Here is a news report from December 8, 1955

Quote:
The US Secretary of State, Mr. John Foster Dulles, has reaffirmed and defended his recent statement that Goa was a province of Portugal. Mr. Dulles was answering questions at a press conference in Washington on December 6 about the protests in India over the statement he had made jointly last week with the Foreign Minister of Portugal, Dr. Paulo Cunha. He said that so far as he knew all the world regarded Goa as a Portuguese province and it had been so for 400 years.


All the soothing words the US gave to NATO founding member and ally Portugal didn't count for "a pitcher of warm spit" (to quote President LBJ). Its sweet words to Pakistan count for even less.

Why this incessant whining about India caving in to the US? India will do what is in its interests.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 22:32 
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shiv wrote:
India just does not have the will power to pour money into becoming a superpower military state challenging the US given that it has x00 million people without clean water supply, a similar huge number without homes, basic healthcare and sanitation.

India is "weak" by a lot of standards. the toss up is between spending India's wealth on building up the military to 5 times its current strength to stare everyone down while ignoring all those hundreds of millions - who may then revolt. or doing what India is doing now. That is, admitting its weaknesses and playing the few cards it has.

We need to look at this as a possible explanation of what we are seeing.
Yes, however, the facts and deductions from them need to be accurate. If one cares to look into the budget and see what India spends on subsidies and amounts wasted. The amounts that can be saved through fiscal reforms. The number of inefficient and unprofitable business units that the central and state governments run and/or fund. The loss to the nation due to the few monopolies, who do turn a profit. The volume of economic reforms that can be undertaken to stimulate growth. Only a blind and/or corrupt person will make the arguments, that we have heard made so many times by many of our leaders.

Mao type of militarization at the cost of the nation, is not the automatic answer to "better" security. There are better ways.

Even after the massacre of 70+ million by Mao (by some estimates) and Deng Xiaoping's Tiananmen, at least a section of the chinese people, seem to have accepted the diktats of the CPC - in exchange for being materially better off. How many Chinese will trade this material well being in exchange for the freedom's we enjoy, is some food for thought.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 22:43 
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Gerard wrote:
Here is a news report from December 8, 1955

Quote:
The US Secretary of State, Mr. John Foster Dulles, has reaffirmed and defended his recent statement that Goa was a province of Portugal. Mr. Dulles was answering questions at a press conference in Washington on December 6 about the protests in India over the statement he had made jointly last week with the Foreign Minister of Portugal, Dr. Paulo Cunha. He said that so far as he knew all the world regarded Goa as a Portuguese province and it had been so for 400 years.


All the soothing words the US gave to NATO founding member and ally Portugal didn't count for "a pitcher of warm spit" (to quote President LBJ). Its sweet words to Pakistan count for even less.

Why this incessant whining about India caving in to the US? India will do what is in its interests.



I am not so sure. :)

Look at the present pilot and copilot in the Indian cockpit.

They own the ATC and the DGCA.

They have just passed V1 and about to rotate.

There is usually an armoured and bullet proof door between them and the rest of the unwashed public.

Very different from the early days


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 22:59 
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Another blast in the land of the pure.

Breaking news now.

Suicide attack in Peshawar kills 3, injures 13 cops


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2009 23:07 
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Maududi’s Children
How the intellectuality of Political Islam turned into the brutality of faithful fascism: Nadeem F. Paracha


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