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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010 18:16 
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Indian Islamic Scholars accuse LeT of conspiring against Islam
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Indian Ahl-e-Hadees scholars accused their ideological peers in Pakistan on Wednesday – the banned Lashkar-e-Tayyaba (LT) group and its parent body, Markaz Dawa al-Irshad – of being part of a global conspiracy against Islam. “We believe Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, the LT chief, is a khawarij (rebel) and needs to be punished under the law,” declared Maulana Asghar Ali Imam Mehdi Salfi, secretary general of the Markazi Jamiat-e-Ahl-e-Hadees.

The Ahl-e-Hadees sect is often criticised for sharing its ideology with the LT or Dawa al Irshad, headed by Hafiz Saeed. Clarifying his stance, Maulana Salfi said both Hafiz Saeed and the Taliban were part of an international conspiracy. He called these groups marauders and said their struggle was nowhere near jihad. He questioned why these groups did not oppress America when they had aligned with it to fight against the Soviet Union?

Claiming that a majority of Ahl-e-Hadees followers in Pakistan were also “up in arms” against Hafiz Saeed for taking over their mosques and establishments, Maulana Salfi said Islam does not endorse extremism. Maintaining that bomb blasts and suicide attacks were forbidden in Islam, he said there was no justification whatsoever for such acts of terrorism and wanton killings.

Quoting a mutual edict of 36 Ahl-e-Hadees scholars, Maulana Salfi said such acts of violence were more critical than robbery. He, however, said a full and fair investigation was imperative under judicial supervision to ensure that innocent people were not punished in the name of terrorism.

Maulana Salfi said the khawarij, who first emerged in the late seventh century AD, also observed all Islamic tenants strictly, but actually created waywardness and rebellion. “Islam does not believe in extremes,” he added.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010 18:35 
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SSridhar wrote:


If jyoti must appear, it must appear from India.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_gbIkGhYCc

Here is the LeT version of Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-35hzc8PQ4


Last edited by shiv on 08 Apr 2010 18:40, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010 18:40 
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SSridhar wrote:


This is along the lines of President Zardari recommending to the PM Gilani to reinstate judges.

What a banana republic!


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010 18:49 
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Rangudu wrote:
What a banana republic!


Indeed, as the Corps Commanders 'approve' the US-Pak Strategic Dialogue !
Quote:
General Kayani briefed the corps commanders about his meetings with US military officials and they expressed satisfaction over the outcome of the Pak-US strategic dialogue. He informed the meeting that the next round of the Pak-US strategic dialogue would be held in Pakistan.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010 18:51 
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Rangudu wrote:
What a banana republic!


You insult banana republics.
At least they produce bananas. They also don't send terrorists across their international borders.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010 20:21 
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Humans are funny, they think in sometimes seemingly illogical and nonsensical ways.

Humans fight, being ready to die, but whent the soul has departed and the person is now merely a corpose---the remains now composed of the five elements minus the soul which gave life to it---they still want it to be treated in a certain fashion. There is a certain closure, a certain dignity and a certain drawing of curtains that is associated with it. Many armies (some more than others) spend considerable effort to retrieve the dead bodies. They sometimes take additional casualties just to retrieve the dead. Some of them are from nations well known for their pragmatic, practical & logical modern streak. That is just human nature.

Regressive and brutal regimes understand that it is not merely enough to ki11 someone, but it is also important how that end comes about. I am not talking of torture (which is another ba11 game altogeter). That is why the British chose to blow dozens of Naamdharies in the Punjab by tying them to the mouth of cannons, rather than simply shoot them, which would presumably be quite cheap and less messy. (report of that massacre indicated that flesh was flying all over the place). This grisly end was designed to cause the living to think in a certain way. Bhagat Singh did not want to be hanged, he wanted to be shot, because that is an end which respectable soldiers get. British obviously wanted to hang him like a common criminal, to deligitimize him.


All faiths lay down conditions how the dead must be disposed off, often based on theological reasoning. This method of disposal has important consequences. In the context of RoP, there is an antipathy to being burned. I have already pointed one example from Indain history. RoP considers disposal by fire to be "Napaak". (There is a reference to a Mughal General Sulhi Khan, who had come to hurt the 5th Sikh Guru, whose horse bolted and dashed into a brick kiln oven and was burnt alive. He was referred to as meeting a "napaak" end in the Sikh scriptures.) Of coure, RoP has come a long way, it has enough ideoological flexibility that it will not stop dead on its tracks. I am under no illusion that atankvaad will suddenly come to a stop by burning. As someone pointed out, fatwas can be purchased on eBay for dime a dozen. But still it is a low-cost no-risk option.

As strange as it sounds, but the relatives of jeehardies who attain shahadatdom in India also want a certain closure. They, since they are human too, feel sorrow, anger, grief. As part of that process there is a certain closure they seek. In the dying there is a certain element of a curtain being drawn and an act of closing a chapter. As heineous the act of their relative, they still seek a respectable end and respectable treatment of the remains of their loved ones. This, after all is also a need. GoI, or IA can decide to satisfy that need, or deny it. It can deny it in ways that puts burden of shame and ignomony on the individual and family (and takes away respectability). It is after all war, and this is a small but important pshychologial strike that we can make. It causes the other Ammi and Abbu's a future Jeeahardie to pause, they will realize that that their loved Azhur will not only give up his life, but will not get a proper end to his body once he steps into Indian soil.

IA and GoI tends to treat fallen atankvaadis as pseudo soldiers, which is what the TSP'ians want them to be thought as. We should be dispelling that illusion by denying any Geneva convention-like treatment to the remains. I am, of course, not suggesting putting pigs meat etc, because this us unecessarily inflamatory. That suggests a purposeful, deliberate and quite-frankly desperate humiliation; we should be doing only an absent minded lack of interest in the faith and disposal techniques. Also, what is wonderful is we dispose these guys just as we dispose our own dead, but with an absence of respect.

Shiv, your points are not invalid. Burial does preserves genetic material. Do we then bury the "Hindu" or "Budhist" atankvaadis too? I am pretty sure we don't bury them. I do not think we are motivated by forensic considerations. One question, do medical colleges need a fully intact cadaver? Can they not take in partial caddies?

Perhaps I should stop and not flog a dead jeehardie any more!!! ;-)


@Vikas Raina: Thanks for the welcome. Feels nice to be posting after a long hiatus.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010 20:41 
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SSridhar wrote:
Pratyush wrote:
Dose it mean that in future it will qualify for civil nuclear energy assistance.

It will happen sooner than later.


Yes, thats why TSP is claiming success of the recent GUBO session with US. They certainly got LET off the table, and on the nuke deal, my feeling is that US has told them that its not going to happen in a day or two, and they should be patient. Knowing how much H&D was hurt because India has one, TSP's pentagon, CIA friends etc are probably working behind the scenes with Congressmen and Senators on why something akin to a nuke deal to TSP is in US's vital national interests. This is how US works; hard-core real-politick, and principles and morals are always a shifting target; they are not immutable; though they will be trumpeted in one case, they will be flouted in another. Someone said, US offering TSP a nuke deal will undercut their case on Iran. I argue that its only on the face of it. US will find a way to brazenly argue exactly the opposite, why TSP is a special case and different from Iran through bogus facts, spin etc. Heck, US even justifies turture of whoeverf they pick up on the street as Al Queda suspect and in the same breath will argue why torture of Chechen suspects by Russia or Paki terror suspects by India is gross human rights violation. Thats how a super power operates.

Bottom line: I argue that US has assured TSP that it will not abandon the India TSP equal equal policy of the past 60+ years which was in slight danger of slipping away. This, IMO was the biggest gain from TSP past several weeks and hence their chutzpah and arrogance in their posture towards India.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010 21:11 
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State govt quietly buried nine 26/11 terrorists in January

Quote:
The Maharashtra police secretly buried in January the bodies of nine Lashkar-e-Toiba gunmen from Pakistan who attacked the city on 26/11.

Disclosing this today, Home Minister R R Patil told the Maharashtra legislative council that the bodies were buried in a “secret mission”. He said this in response to queries on the expenditure that was being incurred by the state to preserve the bodies at the J J Hospital in Mumbai.

“Thirty officials were involved in the mission to dig and bury the bodies. The nine bodies were buried in January. Nobody knew about it except these officials. I wanted to see if the police can keep a secret,” said Patil. “There is not a single body in the mortuary now.”

“We kept the cold room meters on and asked officials to maintain security at the hospital as we did not want anyone to know about the burial,” he said.

“I want to tell the Pakistan Prime Minister that if he cannot prevent terror attacks on India... we will not let them escape and we will bury them in this land,” said Patil.

The nine terrorists were gunned down by security forces at different locations in the city and the bodies were preserved under special conditions at the JJ Hospital mortuary. Forensic experts and the FBI had collected DNA samples and some had matched with the families of the terrorists in Pakistan.

The bodies had begun to rot as they had been kept for more than a year. Muslim groups in the state refused to allow burial, saying they had attacked the country and killed scores. State officials had since been saying that the bodies would be kept until the 26/11 trial was concluded, which happened last week.

Apparently, a muslim officer was tagged along to read the final rites.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010 22:41 
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Irrespective of its merits or demirits, The indic culture teaches us to respect the dead body. Thats why you would find it impossible to convince the Govt or the general public to humiliate the corpse once the initial anger subsides.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010 22:50 
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Indic culture was was and still is a big factor in letting the mlecchas go, from PRC to now. gues this Indic weakness still demand human sacrifice from time to time , as the hands of Jeehardy.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010 23:04 
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Humiliating corpse is extremly self derading excersice and we have not come to that yet. It's one of the many things which differentiates us from TSP.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010 23:04 
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VikasRaina wrote:
Irrespective of its merits or demirits, The indic culture teaches us to respect the dead body.


Vikas, Indian shastras & dharma demands that we love & respect all living beings & creatures. But it is not too specific about how non-living matter is to be treated :D

Quote:
Thats why you would find it impossible to convince the Govt or the general public to humiliate the corpse once the initial anger subsides.


Additionally, there is no disrespect to the corpose, it is dispossed off as we dispose off Hindus corposes, if that is not the ultimate respect, what is? Plus the IM's don't want them to be given a RoP burial, so public opinion should be opposite of what you suggest (and in line with what I suggest).


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010 23:12 
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Nihat wrote:
Humiliating corpse is extremly self derading excersice and we have not come to that yet. It's one of the many things which differentiates us from TSP.

Cremating is very much Indic culture practice , in fact it is proper honorable way of disposing the body and no way humiliating . Other alternative is Parsi or Tibbetan Buddhist method. Basically there is no need to respect the religious sentiments of terroists who must face the consequences of their heinous acts. Geneva convention dont apply on these terrorist Paki. The video of the creamation must be sent to the parents so they can have some kind fo closure and if the vidoes are used by terrorists to incite pagal people then ecploit the oppertunity to eliminate those pagals too if they cross the border .


Last edited by Jhujar on 09 Apr 2010 02:02, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 00:08 
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Nihat wrote:
Humiliating corpse is extremly self derading excersice and we have not come to that yet. It's one of the many things which differentiates us from TSP.

Respect is due for actual soldiers who are a part of a uniformed national military and fight for their nation. Not for terrorists.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 00:12 
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Why not just bury the terrorists somewhere and move on? I don't think they will care either way what we do with the bodies. Either way it will be spun around to suit their ends.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 00:14 
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Sorry if this has been posted. This article from New Yorker is really interesting and recommended read to all

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/11/16/091116fa_fact_hersh?currentPage=all

Article is by Seymour M. Hersh titled Defending the Arsenal

Article talks about Paki nuclear security from Unkil's perpective.


Last edited by Brad Goodman on 09 Apr 2010 00:58, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 00:18 
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Carl_T wrote:
Why not just bury the terrorists somewhere and move on? I don't think they will care either way what we do with the bodies. Either way it will be spun around to suit their ends.


The only worry I have here is that tomorrow if that burial location becomes known there is a chance that it will be turned into a shrine. Example during Shivaji's time one of bijapur general called Afzal Khan came to kill him and Shivaji outfoxed and killed him. His grave is at foothills of Pratapgarh fort in Maharashtra and the story of his death a folklore. But recently that grave has been turned into a mazar and many devotees come to pray at the grave site. Also during last year Ganpati celebrations there were riots in town of Miraj over a display of his killing.

This is why its better to burn and dispose ash in some nala or ocean.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 00:29 
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Brad Goodman wrote:
Sorry if this has been posted. This article from New Yorker is really interesting and recommended read to all

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/11/16/091116fa_fact_hersh?currentPage=all

I didn't know they used this kind of language in that magazine:
Quote:
A senior Pakistani official who has close ties to Zardari exploded with anger during an interview when the subject turned to the American demands for more information about the arsenal. After the September 11th attacks, he said, there had been an understanding between the Bush Administration and then President Pervez Musharraf “over what Pakistan had and did not have.” Today, he said, “you’d like control of our day-to-day deployment. But why should we give it to you? Even if there was a military coup d’état in Pakistan, no one is going to give up total control of our nuclear weapons. Never. Why are you not afraid of India’s nuclear weapons?” the official asked. “Because India is your friend, and the longtime policies of America and India converge. Between you and the Indians, you will ****** us in every way. The truth is that our weapons are less of a problem for the Obama Administration than finding a respectable way out of Afghanistan.”

Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009 ... z0kXPW6NsQ


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 01:01 
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Apart from language there were few pieces that really stood out from the article

Quote:
I flew to New Delhi after my stay in Pakistan and met with two senior officials from the Research and Analysis Wing, India’s national intelligence agency. (Of course, as in Pakistan, no allegation about the other side should be taken at face value.) “Our worries are about the nuclear weapons in Pakistan,” one of the officials said. “Not because we are worried about the mullahs taking over the country; we’re worried about those senior officers in the Pakistan Army who are Caliphates”—believers in a fundamentalist pan-Islamic state. “We know some of them and we have names,” he said. “We’ve been watching colonels who are now brigadiers. These are the guys who could blackmail the whole world”—that is, by seizing a nuclear weapon



Quote:
Officials and journalists said that soldiers and middle-level officers were increasingly attracted to the preaching of Zaid Hamid, who joined the mujahideen and fought for nine years in Afghanistan. On CDs and on television, Hamid exhorts soldiers to think of themselves as Muslims first and Pakistanis second. He claims that terrorist attacks in Mumbai last year were staged by India and Western Zionists, aided by the Mossad. Another proselytizer, Dr. Israr Ahmed, writes a column in the Urdu press in which he depicts the Holocaust as “divine punishment,” and advocates the extermination of the Jews. He, too, is said to be popular with the officer corps.


some funny snippets
Quote:
The former high-level Bush Administration official was just as blunt. “If a Pakistani general is talking to you about nuclear issues, and his lips are moving, he’s lying,” he said. “The Pakistanis wouldn’t share their secrets with anybody, and certainly not with a country that, from their point of view, used them like a Dixie cup and then threw them away.”
:lol:


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 02:07 
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A must watch -Paki TV with Najim Sethi
The best part is at 4:30, when he says "Dekhia seedhi baat hai ki hum hai bukhey nangay" LOL :rotfl:
Translation: The simple fact is we Pakis are hungry beggars. We have no self esteem, we can't stand on our feet. India stood up on it's feet from the very first day. LOL

Then he goes on to praise India!



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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 02:42 
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Err not to be chote muhe badi baath, but shouldnt the word in the Hersh article be Caliphites (adherents of the Caliph) instead of Caliphates which means form of government by a Caliph?


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 02:44 
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Another one of those "Yindia should make biss with Pakistan for Pakistan to rein in terror groups who are not in Pakistan's control anyway, though these groups were started due to calculated national skurity objectives" articles. If you post comments, please be respectful and no angry and get your views across calmly.

I couldnt resist and posted a sarcastic comment whipping the author's musharraf. He replied, I whipped his musharraf again. And did an encore to it. 3 comments are mine with the same handle.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/faiz-lalani/india-must-make-peace-wit_b_530678.html


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 02:45 
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Location: Chini clone of "Maltin Bakel" ejection seat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpcFB7hqDWc

Watch 0:33 to 0:36!
presenter uses the phrase "saari Ram Katha..." :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 03:30 
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If method of burial is indicative of possible use by POWI dwellers as proof of religion - lets see : since the Jihadis were buried, they could be Yehudis too, or Christians, even Buddhists of certain sects, and some Shaivaite sects evenw ithin Hindus, and certain Vaishnava sects again within Hindus! Cremation could equally create problems - for a Papal ruling allows cremation for Catholics now. The Japanese cremate. Oh what a mess!


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 04:06 
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brihaspati wrote:
If method of burial is indicative of possible use by POWI dwellers as proof of religion - lets see : since the Jihadis were buried, they could be Yehudis too, or Christians, even Buddhists of certain sects, and some Shaivaite sects evenw ithin Hindus, and certain Vaishnava sects again within Hindus! Cremation could equally create problems - for a Papal ruling allows cremation for Catholics now. The Japanese cremate. Oh what a mess!


Ironic indeed.

Alas! [sic] secular India can't even cremate/bury/freeze/do-something these terrorists without getting mired in religious conundrum. Jai Ho "Aman ki Nir-aasha"


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 04:42 
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Just one correction, its Pseudo Secular India . Humungous amount of difference in moral paradigm where one is acting under the moral sestivity dilemma and other side clearly knows, define and operates with time honored technical manual with clear methods like jibah, kaffir ,right hand possesion ,booty etc as well certainty of divine rewards of base animalistic pleasures. We do truly live in kalyug .


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 06:18 
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surinder wrote:
Burial does preserves genetic material. Do we then bury the "Hindu" or "Budhist" atankvaadis too? I am pretty sure we don't bury them. I do not think we are motivated by forensic considerations. One question, do medical colleges need a fully intact cadaver? Can they not take in partial caddies?



Now you are really setting me off.. :wink:
Let me start with an OT point. 20% of Karnataka's population are "Lingayats" who bury their dead.

Medical colleges to train young medical students require fully intact cadavers. However anatomy departments that might want to display intricate anatomy of some part in a pickle jar may accept well preserved body parts. Also anatomy postgraduates who may be studying one body part like the hand or penis may well part bodies if there is a supplier.

Forensic pathology departments who train postgraduates may appreciate mutilated corpses to show what injuries do - but the injuries from war are very limited and humans have a wider variety of innovative ways of killing themselves - like ruptured organs from drinking a bottle of coke in one go or choking on a table tennis ball.

But let me sink into nostalgia and score a point for burial. In my student days (probably now as well) every medical student was expected to own a full skeleton (as separate non-joined up bones). Every facet, groove and bump on every bone in the body has a meaning and significance and I must admit I studied all that rather well and it still helps me to this day.

But the day we were told to acquire that skeleton we had no idea until an obviously illiterate man in a lungi and vest turned up at my hostel room door and said that he was the "regular" bones supplier. I paid him the money and he showed up with a box full of bones, skull and all - with every single bone intact and accounted for - even the tips of the little toes. This "illiterate" lungi clad man knew more anatomy (of bones) than I did at the time. In later years I realised that the man was basically getting the bones from graves - in regular parlance that would be "grave robbery" or grave desecration. But like generations of surgeons I too have had to depend on a grave robber to learn anatomy well. On a side note - all sentiment and ideology about graves and the dead gets discarded very soon. A grave robber is an early friend and co conspirator in the business of learning how to "save lives" and a dead man's bones my companions for nearly a decade. I often thought about that dead man - holding his skull - mostly thanking him for being dead and having every anatomical feature preserved for my benefit.

Of course synthetic moulds of bones are now available but they can never ever be a substitute for the original. If you have ever had a broken bone treated - you have to thank some dead man removed from his grave who helped teach the doctor who treated you. Graves are necessary. It is important not to be dogmatic and rigid about anything either burial or exhumation. And if intact jihadi bodies can be buried and later available as bones for anatomists - so be it. And individual graves are better than mass graves for this.

Let us drop this ideological grave versus cremation subject please.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 06:51 
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One never knows where fiction begins and where the fact lies with Tahir Shah; but the early part of this book is an education on skeleton supply: "The Sorcerer's Apprentice".


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 07:31 
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Anujan wrote:
Another one of those "Yindia should make biss with Pakistan for Pakistan to rein in terror groups who are not in Pakistan's control anyway, though these groups were started due to calculated national skurity objectives" articles. If you post comments, please be respectful and no angry and get your views across calmly.

I couldnt resist and posted a sarcastic comment whipping the author's musharraf. He replied, I whipped his musharraf again. And did an encore to it. 3 comments are mine with the same handle.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/faiz-lalani/india-must-make-peace-wit_b_530678.html

Ah Anujan, Good whipping. Like a true Paki, Faiz Lalani dug a hole for himself and didn't realize when to quit.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 08:03 
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At least this Lajja-ni guy is far better than some Stalinist yellow puppets that always do a == and try to present TSP as victim. We (and I think most readers would be) should be smart enough to take facts and admissions stated in the article - that Pakistan supports terrorism and is a terrorist state. And leave out the opinions and theories of the author as involuntary release of inner-Pakistaniyat..

BTW I have added my $0.02 as rob2002 pending approval!


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 08:59 
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I have made an IndiaPakistan == comment

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/faiz-lala ... t_44231736


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 09:14 
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Shivji,
Surinderjis feelings are normal for this forum.Surely it must be possible in this case to preserve a part of the pig's body for identification purposes and burn the rest.Even if it doesnt reach everyone in TSP,atleast some will get the message.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 09:17 
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svenkat wrote:
Shivji,
Surinderjis feelings are normal for this forum.Surely it must be possible in this case to preserve a part of the pig's body for identification purposes and burn the rest.Even if it doesnt reach everyone in TSP,atleast some will get the message.


I am not opposing feelings. But relying on assuaging feelings to get a temporary high is not necessarily the correct thing to do. I think I have explained all that. This is going to be a repeat if I say any more. I am off this topic for now.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 09:38 
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Lets see the TSP/US perfidy scale. For a long time it was India alleges, TSP denies. Slowly it morphed to TSP provides only moral and diplomatic support. Then it bcame "non state actors" only. And now its not fanatic Islamic jihadism but an understandable reaction borne out of insecurity. What next?


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 10:04 
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Howmuchever we whine,US has very good reasons to support TSP.

It would be useful if forumites take this a given and come up with 'strategies' to deal with TSP/amirkhan/lizard.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 10:43 
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This is progress - now they are reduced to begging Big Brother's good graces.

This is a true story....
had the 'happy occasion' of watching India-TSP final cricket match a few years ago in a Paki restaurant.

India was doing well...

Paki Uncle comments: "Daddiwala bej do, kaam finish kardege"

ok, the 'daddiwala' (bearded holy warriors) came and went too quickly! :mrgreen:

Pakis are not doing too good India is whooping their rear side!

Now the Paki Uncle comments looking at the Kaffir Indians:
"Please help out your poor neighbor, as a big brother why don't you let us win" :rotfl:

I am not making this up, but was a valuable lesson into pyskology (as Shiv would say)
They sold themselves to the Greeks, Mongols, Turks and Arabs historically.
Now they sell themselves to the highest bidder - West or China.
The only thing they remain true to is their profession!


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 11:24 
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Quote:
Dangerous ideas

Sir: I am writing with reference to the analysis, ‘Terrorism and the denial problem’, by Dr Hasan-Askari Rizvi (Daily Times, March 28, 2010).

While visiting Delhi’s Red Fort a few years ago, I had an interesting conversation with a young Muslim religious student. When I asked him what he thought about Osama bin Laden, he told me that Indian Muslims consider bin Laden a hero for fighting against the imperialist Americans. He also told me something more interesting. He said that the Americans were not their biggest enemy. The biggest enemy were those who call themselves Muslims yet follow un-Islamic western ideas. When I asked him what western ideas he thought were un-Islamic, he told me that women’s liberation, as practiced in the west, leads to promiscuity and neglect of the family, the idea of freedom of expression promotes ***** and democracy allows non-religious parties to capture power. It seems that everything western is un-Islamic.

When I asked him what he wanted to do with the pro-western Muslims, he told me that either they should submit to shariah law or leave for the west, where they can enjoy the western lifestyle. If a religious Muslim in India, a Hindu-majority country with no chance of imposing shariah, thinks this way, it is easy to understand why the Taliban enjoy popularity among Pakistan’s masses despite their unspeakable brutality towards fellow Muslims. The educated, westernised Muslim elites in Pakistan are being seen as promoting un-Islamic western ideas and the masses have very little sympathy towards them. Unless the masses can be made to realise that the Taliban are a threat to fellow Muslims, Pakistanis are condemned to live in Islamist terror, and peace and prosperity will remain an unachievable goal.
MAHMOOD ELAHI
Ottawa, Canada


Can I just add what a peice of gobshit this is, it's from the letters section of DT but utter rubbsih all the same. I have written the same to the editor of DT in no uncertain terns


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 14:45 
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From GUP SHUP in TFT
Quote:
Next to nothing

A national newspaper carried a prominent news story the other day, about the khakis and their minions stealing canal water from countless peasants in various districts of the Punjab. This is a common feature of the countryside across Pakistan wherever these sacred cows have been allotted land for next to nothing. In Okara district, 120 kilometers from Lahore, a retired khaki was given 50 acres of land. His neighbours were surprised, since it was in a depressed area of the old river bed, completely barren and unfit for agriculture. Within months, the land has been filled and leveled, all with the aid of the state’s machinery with trucks and land movers doing overtime to prepare the acreage. Then the retired khaki set about getting himself some water, and that was only possible by depriving other landowners in the area of the precious resource. Where people will kill and die if their share of water is tampered with, the peasantry came out in revolt and the khaki lodged a complaint. Instantaneously, the local police came out and thrashed the peasants after which they retreated to their homes in sullen silence. Within months of being allotted those barren 50 acres, the retired khaki is now extracting a handsome rent from his land, at Rs 35,000/ per acre (that’s Rs 17,50,000/ per year for doing nothing), and his neighbours whose water he’s stealing, dare not say a word.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 15:21 
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NUGGETS from the Urdu Press
Quote:
Zardari, Nawaz American agents

Great leader Imran Khan was reported by daily Waqt as saying that both Zardari and Nawaz Sharif were 'pakka' American agents. He said when he became prime minister he would bring a case at the UN against India's grabbing of Pakistan's waters.

Sheikh Rashid, apologise for Lal Masjid!


Columnist Tayyaba Zia Cheema wrote in Nawa-e-Waqt that Sheikh Rashid was nearly killed in Rawalpindi by terrorists because he had supported Musharraf's operation against Lal Masjid in 2007. She asked him to apologise sincerely for doing so. It was wrong to accuse PML-N because the attempt on his life was androoni sazish (internal plot). {What a fall for the great Mujahid Sheikh Rashid !! The more pious do not tolerate the less pious even if they had been great friends, taller than the tallest mountains, once}

India and America did it!


Top columnist Haroon Rashid wrote in Jang that Sheikh Rashid was wrong in accusing the PML-N for trying to target-kill him in the run-up to the by-elections in Rawalpindi. It was quite clear that either India or the US had tried to kill him. He said it could be one of the terrorist groups too angry with him.

Taliban will be no more!

Writing in Jang Haroon Rashid stated that once sitting next to Imran Khan in 1999 he heard a grand old man who had 8,000 pages of Ghazwa-e-Hind (Prophet's war on India) in his trunk {Wow ! Must be a realy learned man, probably with a halo around his radiant head, and a long, white and unkempt beard that immediately commands respect. Pakistan is truly a blessed state with people like this grand old man of deep piety and strong conviction in the Ghazwa. Allah-o-Akbar. Pardon me folks, but could not contain myself after getting goosebumps after reading this nugget.} and fear say that the soon martial law would be imposed and that the Taliban would be no more. He said Hazrat Umar had taken the flag of Islam from their hands.

With India, only jihad!

Jamaatud Dawa periodical Jarrar quoted Hafiz Said as saying that with India only jihad will work and there was a national consensus on jihad. Addressing a gathering of hundreds of thousands in Karachi, he said America was breaking up. He said Indian minister Chidambaram should talk to Jamaatud Dawa and not to Pakistan government. {AoA, AoA, Insha Allah, soon enough}

Prophet PBUH and victory against India

Famous columnist Haroon Rashid wrote in Jang {of Aman ki Asha fame} that once someone came to him thrice in the night and disclosed to him a dream in which the Prophet (PBUH) appeared next to Kahuta Laboratory where the largest number of Pakistani scientists lived. The dream was also that when the dreamer ran after the American gora men to catch them with stolen uranium he saw the Prophet (PBUH) standing near a stream together with Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Umar, his companions. The Prophet (PBUH) said that he would himself supervise the war against India in which the Muslims would be led by Khalid bin Walid. {Aoa, AoA . . . this week, it is so full of goosebumps onlee. A small question, though. Did the dreamer catch the gora American with the stolen Uranium ?}

Pak girl students seduced by India


Periodical Jarrar of Jamaatud Dawa reported that an NGO pretending to take Pakistani students to India on study tours was actually taking Pakistani girls to India making them stay with Hindu families who arranged to rape them and thus make them vulnerable to blackmail. Among the girl students were girls from the best known private university of Lahore (name omitted by TFT). The paper said that ISI had arrested the NGO director who was actually working for RAW.

Which general will become chief?

Writing in Jang, Nusrat Mirza observed that army chief General Kayani was retiring in November 2010 but the government was desirous of giving an extension to General Mustafa Khan who is to retire in October 2010. The government wants to extend the service of General Kayani by two years parallel to the extension of service given to General Petraeus by the US. But General Mustafa Khan is junior way down from General Kayani by ten candidates. But if he retires in October he can't even become Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee. What is the government up to?


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2010 16:06 
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Where Sipah-e-Sahaba Rules - by Khaled Ahmed in TFT

Please read it completely to understand the emerging menace. PA is willing to let Seraikistan become the new FATA on the eastern borders.

Quote:
The UN-banned Sipah Sahaba is now clearly the dominant political force in South Punjab. The dreaded militia declared terrorist by the UN, Jaish Muhammad, based in Bahawalpur and under state ‘protection’, is an offshoot of Sipah Sahaba because its leader Maulana Masood Azhar revered his mentor Maulana Haq Nawaz Jhangvi, the founder of Sipah Sahaba. So is the more or less moribund Harkatul Mujahideen whose leader Fazlur Rehman Khaleel was last seen in 2007 at the time of the crisis of Lal Masjid and probably lives in Islamabad also ‘under protection’. Yet another offshoot of Sipah Sahaba, Lashkar Jhangvi, is the wing that kills Shias. Its terrorist leaders are about to be exonerated and freed from jail. Notorious Akram Lahori has already been let off from Karachi. Expect more mayhem in the days to come.

Tacit acceptance of Sipah supremacy: The dominant political party in Punjab – the PML-N – was always inclined in favour of the religious parties, but its solicitation of support from the dominant Sipah in South Punjab has been noted recently. This is a realistic direction because South Punjab has become de-politicised in favour of the increasingly state-supported Deobandi-jihadi elements. Jaish is directly connected to Al Qaeda, as intelligence reports steadily report. As relations with India worsen and Jaish is primed for ‘use’ in the coming days – together with the other jihadi organisation Lashkar Tayba – the hold of Sipah over South Punjab will push all political parties out of contention. Therefore both the PML-N and the PPP are courting it for electoral support. {Khaled Ahmed foresees dire days for India}

Reported in daily Express (9 March 2010) PML N leaders were courting the banned terrorist party Sipah Sahaba – renamed Sunnat wal Jamaat- in South Punjab to win in by-elections. PML N Punjab law minister Rana Sanaullah was seen together with the Sipah leader Maulana Ahmad Ludhianvi who claimed that all politicians who won their seats in South Punjab in 2008 had approached Sipah for help. One federal minister of state had even invited Ludhianvi to his house. Daily Islam (10 March 2010) reported that Maulana Ahmad Ludhianwi said that his party should not be called terrorist as saying so would be in contempt of the court of law. He said a case in this regard was sub judice at the High Court. {Pakistan banned it as a terrorist organization on Jan. 12, 2002} He said the PPP election candidate in Haroonabad was supported by his party and this support was announced by member Javed Iqbal in the presence of Governor Salmaan Taseer.

Taliban vision is Sipah’s vision: The state has always backed the Sipah. {As simple as that}The last time it did so overtly was in 2006 when, to the shock of all who thought Musharraf was opposed to terrorism, it allowed the banned outfit to hold very large congregation in Islamabad, complete with sectarian CDs sold from its stalls. The following year the crisis of Lal Masjid in Islamabad overtook Musharraf. It was another sectarian transplant from South Punjab (Dera Ghazi Khan) which was the meeting place of elements aligned with Al Qaeda. After Musharraf attacked Lal Masjid, Al Qaeda issued the most forceful message against him, triggering the war in the tribal areas through its Taliban proxy.

What the Taliban did to the population of the tribal areas and Malakand-Swat after 2007 was long envisioned by Sipah Sahaba. After being empowered by the exclusively Deobandi jihad unleashed in Afghanistan and Kashmir by the state agencies, its leader Maulana Azam Tariq declared, at an international Difa-e-Sahaba (Defence of the Prophet’s Companions) conference in Karachi in October 2000, that he planned to convert Pakistan’s 28 biggest cities into ‘model Islamic cities’ where television, cinema and music would be banned. Because of Sipah’s alignment with Al Qaeda and the Taliban, its influence among the Orakzai Pashtun tribes in the upper Miranzai Valley in Hangu and Tal became palpable. Today, as the air force pounds Orakzai, Pakistan is close to re-capturing a tribal agency after five years of rule by Taliban and their South Punjabi warriors.

Abandonment of South Punjab to Sipah:
Maulana Azam Tariq was killed in 2003. So were many potentates of Karachi’s Banuri Mosque in the following years because of its patronage of the extremist clergy trained in the madrassas of South Punjab. The single most prominent of these madrassas is the one at Kabirwala which trained the founder of Sipah, Maulana Haq Nawaz Jhangvi. The latest casualties in the Karachi sectarian killings – Maulana Jalalpuri and Maulana Nadim – were both transplants to Karachi from South Punjab.

But Sipah never lost its political appeal even after the ban in 2002. It had its political record: Azam Tariq was elected to parliament four times from the Sipah stronghold in Jhang. He won the National Assembly constituency in 1990, 1993 and in October 2002. The 1990 election was a particularly big success when Azam Tariq defeated the government-backed candidate by a big margin. In the 2002 election under Musharraf, he contested the election from jail. The government, first let him contest the elections, then filed a petition in the Lahore High Court challenging the Pakistan Election Commission’s decision to allow him to stand despite the cases against him. Sipah even became a part of the Punjab government when it succeeded in getting its two MPAs inducted into the Punjab cabinet of the Muslim League chief minister Sardar Arif Nakai in 1995.

Distant dream of Saraiki Province and Sipah: South Punjab has a population of 27 million and comprises 13 districts - Multan, Bahawalpur, Rahimyar Khan, Layyah, Lodhran, Khanewal, Muzaffargarh, Bahawalnagar, Rajanpur, Bhakkar, Vehari, Jhang and Dera Ghazi Khan. (Jhang may not be strictly located in the South but is claimed as part of South Punjab for two reasons: because of the dominance of Sipah Sahaba and because of its linguistic nexus with the rest of the area through Saraiki.) South Punjab has lately become more active in pursuing the objective of a separate province. The campaign has acquired an edge because of two influential TV channels – Rohi and Waseb. Since the campaign is language-based, many districts lying outside South Punjab are likely to be demanded by it, but a realistic estimate would allow districts like Mianwali to remain in rump Punjab despite the recent mild Saraiki advocacy by maverick politician Sher Afgan Niazi. The Saraiki province however remains a distant dream.

A new perspective of the Saraiki Movement is gradually coming to the fore, reflecting the political dominance of Sipah Sahaba and its offshoot, the Jaish. No one from among the backers of the movement – known traditionally to be secular – is willing to even speak of the presence of the jihadi-terrorist organisations. One reason is that most of them want to lean on them to win the elections; the other may be the simple fact of intimidation and the subliminal acknowledgement of state patronage to the terrorists. A Saraiki Province in the coming days will be exclusively the domain of Sipah Sahaba and its friends. It will be for the first time that terrorists posing as Islamic warriors against India and against the Shias of Pakistan will possess an entire province and its resources under the new constitutional dispensation of real autonomy. {The Islamic Emirate of Seraikistan. The Seraiki movement has been hijacked}

Al Qaeda and South Punjab: It is said that the Taliban chief Hakimullah Mehsud, after being injured, was taken to South Punjab before he allegedly died. South Punjab as a separate province will be ripe for use by the state against India. (TV discussions have actually considered the latest Saraiki Movement as orchestrated by the state agencies.) It is quite possible that using the ‘non state actors’ from an independent province will be more convenient for the agencies. But the state may not have taken into account that the new province will also become the domain of Al Qaeda through its close contacts with Jaish Muhammad. The presence of Lashkar Tayba in South Punjab may also add to the facility of the agencies, but its trans-border actions will certainly attract international attention.
{Pakistan is perfectly willing to destroy itself 10 times if it can destroy India even patially once}
Pakistani analyst Syed Saleem Shahzad representing Asia Times On Line (31 March 2010) has traced the latest Moscow attack by terrorists from North Caucasus to Pakistan: ‘Monday’s twin suicide attacks by female bombers in the Moscow metro system in which at least 38 people were killed and 64 injured were most likely planned and executed by people trained in Pakistan’s tribal areas’. South Punjab is expected to intensify its campaign to become an independent province, with its political direction in the hands of Sipah Sahaba, benefiting both Al Qaeda and the state agencies.


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