The Pakistani POV

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svinayak
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Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

wamanrao wrote:There's no point asking lestat to explain the principles of the Paki state as such or their policies. However it would seem of utility to deconstruct the visceral hatred to understand it's underpinnings, as also the contradictions that such propagandized education attempts to explain away.

Once again, lestat - can you explain the status of Pakistani Hindus/Sikhs/other non-muslim minorities in the Islamiat/Pakistan studies course you took?
This guy is a product of this policy
LINK
Changes in History teaching in Pakistan:


There is increasing evidence that changes in history teaching in Pakistan were being matched with changes inside India after 1971. The western institution and think tanks ; probably are involved in this change in both countries. University of Nebraska had a program to change the curriculum of Afghanistan text books after 1980 to make Russians as enemies during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Finally AH Nayyar a Pakistani commentator said 'The fact of the matter is that jihad by sword came into not only Pakistani textbooks but Afghan textbooks as well, only because the US wanted it so. He said the task of putting jihad into textbooks in Afghanistan(and prob. Pakistan) was given to a University of Nebraska department in the Cold War years'. He said 'the same University of Nebraska entity has now been instructed by the President Bush's wife to take charge of getting jihad OUT of Pakistani(actually Afghan-corrected) textbooks.' At least one education program the U.S. did sponsor probably did little to break the culture of violence that envelops children here from an early age.

The Agency for International Development paid the University of Nebraska $50 million over eight years, from 1986 to 1994, to produce educational materials for Afghan primary- and secondary-school students. But texts on a range of subjects were highly politicized and often had a militaristic overtone, Tom Gouttierre, director of the university’s Center for Afghan Studies in Omaha, now concede. Some questions prodded students to tackle basic math by counting dead Russians and Kalashnikov rifles. In addition to arming such groups for hitech jihad, the United States became directly involved in their indoctrination process. Between 1986 and 1992, USAID underwrote the printing of explicitly violent Islamist textbooks for elementary school children. The University of Nebraska, Omaha (UNO), oversaw this $50 million contract with the Education Center for Afghanistan (ECA), a group jointly appointed by the seven mujahideen organizations that the ISI and CIA had taken under their wing. With this money, the Peshawar-based ECA published a series of first- through sixth-grade textbooks whose recurrent theme was the promotion of Islam through violence.

The education changes in Pakistan and Afghanistan from 1980 may considered as social engineering projects and may be one of largest ever done in history. This social engineering resulted in a steady stream of Islamic jihad militants for the next 25 years that it has changed the world as never before. India has been the biggest targeted country due to the effects of this social engineering.


Taking rather a different tack than Dr.Seuss, these USAID-funded books instructed children that, in the Persian alphabet, Alif is for Allah, Jim is for Jihad, and Shin is for Shakir, adding that “Shakir conducts jihad with the sword. God becomes happy with the defeat of the Russians.” Third- and fifth grade books depicted automatic rifles, rocket-propelled grenades, and tanks. A fourth grade mathematics text noted that “the speed of a Kalashnikov bullet is 800 meters per second,” and then asked students, If a Russian is at a distance of 3,200 meters from a mujahid, and that mujahid aims at the Russian’s head, calculate how many seconds it will take for the bullet to strike the Russian in the forehead.
One of the two official views of history also causes problems for the study of History in Pakistan. This view popularized by Dr Ahmad Dani locates Pakistan as part of a Central Asian historical and cultural entity, rather than within India/South Asia. In the first decade after Pakistan's independence, Pakistan considered its history to be part of a larger India's, a common history, a joint history, and in fact Indian textbooks were in use in the syllabus in Pakistan.

However, this changed in the early 1960s when Ayub Khan's government wanted to create a 'History of Pakistan' independent and separate from that of India's. The historians who were given this task attempted to 'take out' Pakistan from Indian history and just look at Pakistan without India. This gave rise to the writing of a Pakistani history disassociated from an Indian past and links were established with Central Asia. All the association with the Indian history has been negated or totally omitted.

It is very clear, that in Pakistan, it is 'Muslim history' that is being taught, and not 'Indian history'. In fact, this Muslim history, as we argue above, is perceived to be a Pakistani history dating from 712 AD. This has major repercussions on what is taught and the way it is taught. For example, since there is a Muslim history and there are courses and subjects called 'The Freedom Movement' which looks at the struggle for an independent Pakistan - the seeds of which according to some historians were sown in 712 AD, but for others in 1857 - seems to overlook the colonial period entirely and treats the Freedom Struggle as a struggle from Hindu domination, not colonial rule.

In none of the curricula studied, did we find a single course on British India, or on colonialism; the period after 1857 is seen as the beginning of the Pakistan Movement and of the Freedom Struggle. From the 'Muslim' period, we move on to the 'Struggle for Pakistan'. In essence, the Freedom Movement is shown to be a movement for the freedom of Muslims in India, but not of India from colonialism. What is interesting, though not at all surprising, is that post-independence modern India, is not taught as part of the history syllabus in Pakistan. For that matter, nor is there a course on the history of modern Pakistan, since both of these countries in this era, are treated under politics.

Interestingly enough, teachers at the University of Karachi's international relations department said that as late as 1989, the term 'South Asia' was "banned" in the department, since it was considered too 'pro-India' and was thought to be a part of an India-centric thinking. South Asia as a subject was introduced only after a democratic government took over in 1988-89 after the death of General Ziaul Haq.

One objective of change in Pakistani text book is to create an benign Islamic political history of the Mogul period in the sub-continent so that there is no antipathy towards the Muslim culture and Muslim people by the non-Muslims in the sub-continent. For the Muslims when a Islamic political history is glorified and is a continuum of the larger pan Islamic history; it energizes the Muslim community and unifies them over any political/ethnic differences. Pakistan after 1971 was rocked by decussating by Baloch and Sindh and unrest. The change in the education was to bring a common Muslim history to bind the provinces. This process was a way for creation of a sub-continent Muslim ruling class accepted by all the people in the sub-continent in the long run.

The assumption here is that non-Muslim population will loose their Hindu attributes and blend with the Muslims in the long run and accept their hegemony. For 30 years in its 55-year history, Pakistan has had governments that were run by the military or put into office and sustained by the military. It is not a matter of surprise that the government-textbook connection has developed into a military-textbook bond. This started in the 1970s when a former prime minister, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, introduced a full two-year course on the ‘Fundamentals of War’ and ‘Defense of Pakistan’ for Class XI and XII respectively.

In the twilight of the Cold War, the United States spent millions of dollars to supply Afghan schoolchildren with textbooks filled with violent images and militant Islamic teachings, part of covert attempts to spur resistance to the Soviet occupation. The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books, though the radical movement scratched out human faces in keeping with its strict fundamentalist code. Published in the dominant Afghan languages of Dari and Pashtu, the textbooks were developed in the early 1980s under an AID grant to the University of Nebraska-Omaha and its Center for Afghanistan Studies. The agency spent $51 million on the university's education programs in Afghanistan from 1984 to 1994.

During that time of Soviet occupation, regional military leaders in Afghanistan helped the U.S. smuggle books into the country. They demanded that the primers contain anti-Soviet passages. Children were taught to count with illustrations showing tanks, missiles and land mines, agency officials said. They acknowledged that at the time it also suited U.S. interests to stoke hatred of foreign invaders. "I think we were perfectly happy to see these books trashing the Soviet Union," said Chris Brown, head of book revision for AID's Central Asia Task Force. AID dropped funding of Afghan programs in 1994. But the textbooks continued to circulate in various versions, even after the Taliban seized power in 1996.


In the ‘Fundamentals of War’ themes like objects and causes, conduct, nature, modern weapons, operations, ethics, war and modern warfare were thoroughly discussed. The ‘Defense of Pakistan’ dealt with Pakistan’s defense problems, economy and defense, foreign policy, military heritage, the role of its armed forces during peace and the qualities of military leadership. There was a military science group for intermediate students, which consisted of war, military history, economics of war, military geography, defense of Pakistan and special military studies as subjects.

General Ayub Khan abolished history from the school system, and got official textbooks prepared for history students at the university level. Between 1960 and 1980 the students read no history at all for the first 12 years of their studies.[ why from 1960 the year Indian movies were banned in Pakistan ] Instead, they were taught a newly invented subject called "Social Studies", which was an uneven and coarse amalgam of bits of civics, geography, religion, economics and history. During the 13th and 14th years (undergraduate period) they read a history book prepared by the government. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's regime did not make any change in this scheme.

General Ziaul Haq promoted the destruction of history with unswerving determination. In the name of a debatable patriotism and a supposititious ideology he made his control over history writing and teaching complete, arbitrary, coercive and totalitarian. He (1) subjected all textbooks of Social Studies to the scrutiny and approval of the Federal Ministry of Education, i.e., a group of civil servants, (2) created a new subject of "Pakistan Studies"; made it compulsory for all undergraduates in arts, sciences, medicine and engineering, and all graduates in law; and got a special textbook prepared for it by several committees and panels of experts working in close collaboration (the result was not even bad history), and (3) dictated that all these books must meet the requirements of an ideology (he did not call it Islam), of which he was the sole definer, judge and perpetrator.

Ahmed Salim and A.H. Nayyar have compiled a 140-page report on ‘The State of Curriculum and Textbooks in Pakistan’. The Report is nothing short of a sneak preview of how our Ministry of Education is preparing five and seventeen year old Pakistanis for ‘jihad’. To be certain, the ‘themes of ‘jihad’ and ‘shahadat’ clearly distinguish the pre- and post-1979 educational contents. There was no mention of these in the pre-Islamisation period curricula and textbooks, while the post-1979 curricula and textbooks openly eulogize ‘jihad’ and ‘shahadat’ and urge students to become ‘mujahids’ and martyrs. The official Curriculum Document, Primary Education, Class K-V specifically prescribes ‘simple stories to urge ‘jihad’.’ Under ‘Activity 4’, the prescription for three and eight-year old Pakistanis is: ‘To make speeches on ‘jihad’ and ‘shahadat’.’

Urdu Curriculum (First Language) for Classes IV and V, National Bureau of Curriculum and Textbooks, Ministry of Education, Government of Pakistan sets the following objective: ‘Stories: eight lessons; folk tales, mythical, moral, Islamic, travel, adventure and ‘jihad’.’ Textbook writers are officially directed that ‘a feeling be created among students that they are the members of a Muslim nation. Therefore, in accordance with the Islamic tradition, they have to be truthful, honest, patriotic and life-sacrificing ‘mujahids’.’ A specific ‘suggestion on preparing textbooks’ for Class V is: ‘Simple stories to incite for ‘jihad’.’

Urdu Curriculum (first and second language) for Classes VI-VIII, National Bureau of Curriculum and Textbooks, Ministry of Education, instructs teachers that students ‘must be made aware of the blessings of ‘jihad’...’ and that teachers must ‘create yearning for ‘jihad’ in their hearts.’
The authors say :

Our curriculum still equates Islam, Pakistan and ‘jihad’. We are still ‘inspiring’ our children to become guerrilla fighters. The Islamic Republic of Pakistan still insists on making her children ‘aware of the blessings of ‘jihad’, to ‘make speeches on ‘jihad’ ‘, to ‘create a yearning for ‘jihad’ ‘, to ‘love and aspire for ‘jihad’.

Stephen Cohen ( Brookings Institution) Quote : By 2001 The Pakistan history and identity was being contested once again. Although Army had been able to impose its vision of the state other ideas exist for what Pakistan should be. The important clash inside Pakistan is not a civilization clash between Muslims and non-Muslims but a clash between different concepts of Islam, particularly how Pakistan should implement its Islamic identity.
Currently there is a movement to eulogize Allama Iqbal the poet during the pre-independence movement as the ideologue of Pakistan to replace Jinnah the Father of the nation. This clearly shows a deep search once again for a reason for the creation of Pakistan by the elite and they have been able to change the debate inside the country to suit their objective. There is a great debate on nationalism and Islamic ummah concept and what does Pakistan stands for.

Pakistan Studies, like most area studies, came into being at a time of crisis. The political and military upheavals of 1971 forced a rethinking of national life, which seems to have led to the conclusion that there was a need to study Pakistani society so as to contribute to our national cohesion.
In 1973, therefore, a university department of Pakistan Studies was established at the Islamabad (later Quaid-e-Azam) University. By 1976 a comprehensive programm for the promotion of the field was chalked out. Several centers were established, and curricula were developed for the secondary level. In 1978 Pakistan Studies was made compulsory up to the bachelor level. Since then knowledge of Pakistan affairs has been examined in tests and interviews for jobs in practically all government departments. The institutional framework for the growth and development of the discipline is furnished by a 1976 act under which was established the National Institute of Pakistan Studies at the Quaid-e-Azam University in 1983.

Pakistan Studies has its cognitive, practical and affective aspects. Cognitively, its main purpose is to promote knowledge of the individual about himself, his country, and the world around him. In its affective aspect, Pakistan Studies is intended to help socialize him to national life and inculcate patriotism and confidence in the future of Pakistan. The field is thus an instrument to create love and loyalty for Pakistan, and thus in the long run produce better policymakers and administrators.

The greatest threat to Pakistan’s future may be its abysmal education system. Pak¬istani schools—and not just madrassahs— are churning out fiery zealots, fueled with a passion for jihad and martyrdom. The obstacles to reform are great. For example, recent street rampages by Islamists forced Musharraf’s former minister of education, Zubaida Jalal, to declare herself a fundamentalist and denounce as unacceptable school text-books that do not include Quranic verses on jihad.

The United States, along with the United Kingdom and the European Union, has recently poured hundreds of millions of dollars into the Pakistani educational system but with minimal effect. US-AID officials in Pakistan have shown little inclination or desire to engage with the government on the issue of eliminating jihad and militarism from school books. Indeed, rather than calling Musharraf ’s government on the continuing espousal of jihadist doctrine, the White House, out of either ignorance or compromise, even praised former Education Minister Jalal for her “reforms.” Jalal’s successor, General Javed Ashraf Qazi, is a former intelligence chief known for his ruthless tactics. It therefore appears that Musharraf’s educational curriculum will go unchanged.

This difficulty, of course, reflects the underlying problems of Pakistan’s govern¬ment. Aware of its thin legitimacy and fearful of taking on powerful religious forces, no reigning government has made a serious attempt at curricular or educa¬tional reform, quietly allowing future minds to be molded by fanatics. But without such critical reforms, the long-¬term prospects for Pakistan are anything but comforting.

The social engineering started during the Zia rule has transformed the next generation of Pakistani. Dr Hoodbhoy says since Zia the Pakistani society had become more “Islamised”. The changes made in textbooks during his regime had taken effect and the young generation was extremely conservative. He said in his physics class there were 13 girls, seven of whom remained burqa-clad, three donned hijabs and only three retained a normal appearance. The change had been profound and it had penetrated to the roots, he added. The military had changed too and its slogan given by Zia and retained today was jihad in the cause of God. This social engineering done on the Pakistani society was initiated and influenced by the western think tanks and universities in a covert manner. The Indian elite and experts failed to comprehend the scope and breadth of the social engineering being done inside Pakistan for more than 30 years leading to a dangerous vacuum in understanding the threat to India and its society. From available information it is the RAND Corporation which has been the lead think tank in the social engineering project for the last 30 years primarily in Pakistan and Muslim world at large.
Last edited by svinayak on 04 Nov 2010 00:27, edited 1 time in total.
wamanrao
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by wamanrao »

Ok, I give up. Asked him questions multiple times, only got to read troll responses.

We need a Paki PoV, but someone who is not a mental teenager. There's no intellectual value to be had in this conversation, methinks.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by Lestat »

wamanrao wrote:Ok, I give up. Asked him questions multiple times, only got to read troll responses.

We need a Paki PoV, but someone who is not a mental teenager. There's no intellectual value to be had in this conversation, methinks.
Guy, I am at work. I can't type flipping lenghty answers lol.
sanjaykumar
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by sanjaykumar »

Yeah but he sure knows how to take abuse, revels in it.

Obviously a madrasseh graduate.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by hnair »

ramana wrote:Common. You guys want to banish him, he is not even a true TFTA from pureland. Think of how the MEA and others have to endure on daily basis.
:rotfl:

Indeed. Take this chap as a low dose of pathogen to develop immunity and fan out to fight more funner elements elsewhere in the web. My only problem is him and that other taller than mountain friend are introducing themes (like that asinine and untrue post on "Indians are generally homophobic", despite hijadas relieving money off the travellers in local trains and motorists road junctions with great impunity :D ) that can lead to unwanted attention and labeling of this forum. Now that is sneaky and needs some admin attention, I feel
svinayak
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Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

JE Menon wrote:Guys, I think Lestat is Indian - or another nationality - playing a practical joke on us :D

There is something about the posts that gives me this gut feeling. Something Indian about him.
Absolutely. He answers some questions and ignores some of them
If he knows too much details about Indian life and Indian people then he cannot be from Pakistan.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by brihaspati »

Lestat wrote

TonyMontana wrote:
Welcome to BRF, Lestat. The Middle Kingdom appreciates the help and support of Pakistan in the region, through out the years. China has a keen interest in stability in Pakistan and will continue to support the Pakistani government in establishing stability within your country. Unlike some Indian posters, I am confident of the survival of Pakistan as a political/state entity.

Quick question. When was the last time you went back to your mother country?
I went back at the end of 2007. Frankly, the worse of year for Pakistan in terms of terrorism troubles.
What a display of what the respective "mother countries" really stand for! TonyMontana is gloating in constantly thinking of a King who rules over him even though officially the country claims to be a Republic. Then he recognizes that this other country has a stability problem and sees no immediate ability of that country to stabilize itself - therefore promises to continue helping in "establishing stability". It is also left indefinite into the future - so that he also does not see any finite timeline for such stability ever being achievable. He admires conviction in some Indians about their future projections about the inevitable dissolution of both PRC and Pakistan but dismisses such projections as impossible - but copies those Indians in expressing his conviction about Pak stability!

Lestat responds quickly to confirm that 2007 was "the worse of year" (in this of course he shows how generally Pakis chew up English as a language - perhaps a more general inherent inability to even copy or learn to emulate properly - just as they have botched up the Arabism they tried to copy) for Pak in terms of "terrorism trouble".

Now in the absence of knowledge of English but his desperation to use it - he has fuzzed up what he actually tried to say. So we have to guess at the possible meanings. One possible meaning is : "2007 was the worst in years" in terms of "terrorism trouble" which implies that terrorism trouble is a constant every-year feature of Pak - it just goes up and down like seasonal influenza or cold. If he had meant "2007 was the worst of the year", then he must have a different calendar cycle in mind where there can be many 2007's in one single 2007, or that he has invented a new calendar where the typical solar year calendar is just part of a much longer "year". But then that would imply that he has gone against the Islamic calendar year which is actually of a shorter duration than the solar one.

The Islamic calendar is supposed to have been revealed by Allah and also modified (for example the prohibition of the Nasi) by the same and confirmed by the prophet of Islam. So if Lestat wants to avoid dubbing his country of origin as permanently terrorist then he has to agree that he meant the alternate calendar meaning - which makes him a challenger of muhammad and therefore a blasphemer.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by saip »

Oh, I forgot English is your first language. :rotfl:
But I wasnt the one correcting others English :rotfl: If u liv in a glass house undress in dark!
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by harbans »

And this guy was correcting someone else's English?

Yes and when someone corrected him 5 times over, he goes 'typical Indian'. Initially i thought there's some aberration. We do have an 'Honest Paki'..wow. This was so because i know when you think Paki's could'nt stoop lower, they are one species that start to dig.. Hence i was impressed this Paki acknowledged the hate was in his curriculum and his Govts Intel did do 26-11. But then wait..this Paki is happy to call his mother "ugly", correct spell mistakes while he makes 5 of them and importantly continue with his hatred and bias, instead of finding solutions that may take him away from that. Has pride in false courage and Machismo than some humble SDRE trying to do his job.

Only a true Paki can acknowledge all that and continue with the i am superior and done is done attitude. Others would acknowledge a moral dilemna and weakness and be humble and learn. But for a Paki..humility is a sin. They froth seeing humble folks. They have a desire to prove their little manhood trying to destroy someone humble. That is Pakistaniyat for starters. He has no idea on what principles or value systems even the West is made of. He thinks smoking weed and one liners on HIndu's, jews with some racist trash thrown in between makes him a 'liberal' in Western mould, specially he harps on the K word and Indian so called atrocities in Kashmir. Point him to the humbling truth..and he has no knowledge, no inkling, no idea and detests hearing those words.

BTW: My company an Indian MNC was possibly the largest employer of Paki's at one time, including opening up a recruitment office in Kraachi. We had reports of bad professional habits, casual lackadaisical attitudes and of course the ever so pervasive sense of entitlement and superiority. 26-11 helped make the decision to throw the whole lot of them out for good.
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Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Lestat »

Acharya wrote:
JE Menon wrote:Guys, I think Lestat is Indian - or another nationality - playing a practical joke on us :D

There is something about the posts that gives me this gut feeling. Something Indian about him.
Absolutely. He answers some questions and ignores some of them
If he knows too much details about Indian life and Indian people then he cannot be from Pakistan.
Guy, we were bought up studying your mannerisms. We can smell you guys out in a crowd of people lol.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by brihaspati »

Lestat wrote
GUY, come to Brampton and catch any cab. DARE YEAH !!!
ALMOST ALL TAXI BUSINESSES ARE OWNED AND DRVIEN BY INDIAN SIKHS. They have pretty much pushed all the white people out of the truckin business. No wonder you guys get beat up in Australia. Always trying to control everything. Typical Indians.
Well Indians get heckled or "beat up" if they look like the SDRE's who represent the majority of the Pakis. The hatred is on the Pakis and most such incidents happen in countries with people with similar brain capacities as that of majority of pakis - and they cannot see much difference in the physical appearances between a Paki and North Indians.

I see so many Pakis actually try to pass off themselves as Indians when faced with such hostility! That only confirmed the actual quantity of Paki bravery as revealed in their desperation to save their lives when East Pakistan finally fell. They desperately tried to surrender to Indian army - for they knew what would happen to them if the BD liberation fighters got hold of them.

Where they landed up in liberation fighters' hands - the result was interesting! Some were stripped and paraded naked and then slowly mutilated and impaled in exactly the manner that Pakis themselves had carried out on "fellow Muslims".

It does turn out from the BD experience that Pakis soldiers are great at surprise or ambush attacks on unarmed civilians with military firepower, and torturing captured civilians or raping women from the safety of their camps. But those very same Pakis would scramble and grovel to save their lives when actually faced with real armies.

I guess that same grovelling turns to pretend being Indians to save their lives when abroad!
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by saip »

wamanrao wrote:Ok, I give up. Asked him questions multiple times, only got to read troll responses.

We need a Paki PoV, but someone who is not a mental teenager. There's no intellectual value to be had in this conversation, methinks.
You have to give him a break. He left porki land when he was 13 and what he knows about that god forsaken land is no different from what you and I know. He might have visited that miserable land a few times since then and might have a few relatives there. So do many of us (I do have relatives there, but most of them have left).

As far as americans like me are concerned all Pakis are terrorists. Just like condoms we need them and use them when necessary and will discard them as soon as the job is done.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by saip »

a) found kissing or fondling a Goat (Animal Husbandry as it is called in Paikhanastan)
If you read Charlie Wilson's war, that's exactly what the pakis were doing with mules supplied by the CIA!
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Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

nandakumar wrote:
That the British somehow survived the aerial bombardment of 1941, the Russians somehow staved off the march the Germans into Russia, the formal entry of the United States in the war after the Japanese attack on the Pearl harbour that tilted the equation in favour of the Allies, is now history. There is little doubt in my mind that the 'quit india' movement could not have been more badly timed. The decision resulted in the Congress led provincial Governments resigining and thus leaving the field completely open for Muslim League to run riot both at an administrative level but on the streets as well.
Read the book Grand Strategies in War and Peace Professor Paul Kennedy
It shows how Quit India movement crippled Churchill so badly during the war preparation.
This book is a collection of some nine essays, each by an eminent authority (including future U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice). The first three essays look at British grand strategy during the War of the Spanish Succession, World War I and World War II. The next four essays look at the grand strategies of the Roman Empire, seventeenth century Imperial Spain, Imperial and Nazi German grand strategies, and French grand strategies in the two World Wars. The eighth essay (the one by Condoleezza Rice) looks at Communist Russia's grand strategies from the beginning of the Soviet Union to the Brezhnev era. The final essay was written by Paul Kennedy himself, and suggests how American grand strategy should look to function in a multipolar world where America has been overtaken by other powers in key measures of national preeminence.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by wamanrao »

See the problem is that I went on to ask some serious questions thinking there would be some food for thought. Turns out this character is here to post in bumper-stickerese. My fault I guess; too much to expect a genuinely intellectual Paki.

I wonder what answers might come from having someone like Nadeem Paracha or Pervez Hoodbuoy on this forum. Ah well...
svinayak
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Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

Lestat wrote:
Guy, we were bought up studying your mannerisms. We can smell you guys out in a crowd of people lol.
Indians can spot a Paki in a crowd with eyes closed
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by Lestat »

brihaspati wrote:
Lestat wrote
GUY, come to Brampton and catch any cab. DARE YEAH !!!
ALMOST ALL TAXI BUSINESSES ARE OWNED AND DRVIEN BY INDIAN SIKHS. They have pretty much pushed all the white people out of the truckin business. No wonder you guys get beat up in Australia. Always trying to control everything. Typical Indians.
Well Indians get heckled or "beat up" if they look like the SDRE's who represent the majority of the Pakis. The hatred is on the Pakis and most such incidents happen in countries with people with similar brain capacities as that of majority of pakis - and they cannot see much difference in the physical appearances between a Paki and North Indians.

I see so many Pakis actually try to pass off themselves as Indians when faced with such hostility! That only confirmed the actual quantity of Paki bravery as revealed in their desperation to save their lives when East Pakistan finally fell. They desperately tried to surrender to Indian army - for they knew what would happen to them if the BD liberation fighters got hold of them.

Where they landed up in liberation fighters' hands - the result was interesting! Some were stripped and paraded naked and then slowly mutilated and impaled in exactly the manner that Pakis themselves had carried out on "fellow Muslims".

It does turn out from the BD experience that Pakis soldiers are great at surprise or ambush attacks on unarmed civilians with military firepower, and torturing captured civilians or raping women from the safety of their camps. But those very same Pakis would scramble and grovel to save their lives when actually faced with real armies.

I guess that same grovelling turns to pretend being Indians to save their lives when abroad!
Keep dreaming...no loyal Pakistani would ever call himself an Indian. Even Mexicans hate being called Indian in America lol.

The word "Paki" was first used as a demonym to describe Pakistanis like Brits, Aussies, Yankies, Kiwies, and Canucks. Some Indians were accidently got called one as well in due course. They took it as such an insult because of the constant hatred between us. That the flipping word is now used by every Brit to irritate Indians. ex. (Goody & Shilpa incident on Big Brother)

Guy, Indians stink like hell because you guys mix sooo much spices in your veggies to bring out the taste.
Only Indians wear turbans in the general public eye AKA Sikhs.
Only, Indians are black as night and FUGLY AKA Tamils & South Indians.

And thus, the word is used to describe South Asians in general who are majorally Indians (a billion plus).

HEY, I AM PROUD TO BE A PAKI. Call me one lol.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by Prem »

Paki POV revolves around One thing onlee

Poaky Poaky Puttar teri destiny me kya hai
Poaky Poaky Puttar teri Destiny me kya hai
Destiny me hai pehli Couzin ki "nishani"
Hum ko Araps ka seed laga hai.
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Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Lestat »

Acharya wrote:
Lestat wrote:
Guy, we were bought up studying your mannerisms. We can smell you guys out in a crowd of people lol.
Indians can spot a Paki in a crowd with eyes closed
Because, we glow in our fairness and are tall so you guys look up to us.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by saip »

pgbhat
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by pgbhat »

Adminullahs, Plij to ensure the nava mujahid enter jannat and gets hij 72.

He seems very eager. AoA!!

Lalmullah ij missing after being declared wajib-ul-qatl, by my forth coujin. :(
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by harbans »

Guy, we were bought up studying your mannerisms. We can smell you guys out in a crowd of people lol.

You were taught as you yourself said: Hatred of Hindu's. Your propaganda would have included rubbish. You know nothing of our mannerisms because they are so different. Every Indian has his or her own individuality and is encouraged to pursue it. This has been from time immemorial. Even culinary habits are not the same within families too. There is variety in India. We cherish that. Within that variety we find our synergies. We detest homogenization like the CCP and the Paki's attempt within their own lands. Our trust and future is in our plurality, not some singularity of mannerisms as you suggest. The more you try not be Indic..the more you, your kin and family will traverse into hellish circumstances. Thats how it works. US is much more Indic now than what Indians are Americanized. Food for thought:
We Are All Hindus Now

America is not a Christian nation. We are, it is true, a nation founded by Christians, and according to a 2008 survey, 76 percent of us continue to identify as Christian (still, that's the lowest percentage in American history). Of course, we are not a Hindu—or Muslim, or Jewish, or Wiccan—nation, either. A million-plus Hindus live in the United States, a fraction of the billion who live on Earth. But recent poll data show that conceptually, at least, we are slowly becoming more like Hindus and less like traditional Christians in the ways we think about God, our selves, each other, and eternity.

The Rig Veda, the most ancient Hindu scripture, says this: "Truth is One, but the sages speak of it by many names." A Hindu believes there are many paths to God. Jesus is one way, the Qur'an is another, yoga practice is a third. None is better than any other; all are equal. The most traditional, conservative Christians have not been taught to think like this. They learn in Sunday school that their religion is true, and others are false. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me."

Americans are no longer buying it. According to a 2008 Pew Forum survey, 65 percent of us believe that "many religions can lead to eternal life"—including 37 percent of white evangelicals, the group most likely to believe that salvation is theirs alone. Also, the number of people who seek spiritual truth outside church is growing. Thirty percent of Americans call themselves "spiritual, not religious," according to a 2009 NEWSWEEK Poll, up from 24 percent in 2005. Stephen Prothero, religion professor at Boston University, has long framed the American propensity for "the divine-deli-cafeteria religion" as "very much in the spirit of Hinduism. You're not picking and choosing from different religions, because they're all the same," he says. "It isn't about orthodoxy. It's about whatever works. If going to yoga works, great—and if going to Catholic mass works, great. And if going to Catholic mass plus the yoga plus the Buddhist retreat works, that's great, too."

Then there's the question of what happens when you die. Christians traditionally believe that bodies and souls are sacred, that together they comprise the "self," and that at the end of time they will be reunited in the Resurrection. You need both, in other words, and you need them forever. Hindus believe no such thing. At death, the body burns on a pyre, while the spirit—where identity resides—escapes. In reincarnation, central to Hinduism, selves come back to earth again and again in different bodies. So here is another way in which Americans are becoming more Hindu: 24 percent of Americans say they believe in reincarnation, according to a 2008 Harris poll. So agnostic are we about the ultimate fates of our bodies that we're burning them—like Hindus—after death. More than a third of Americans now choose cremation, according to the Cremation Association of North America, up from 6 percent in 1975.
http://www.newsweek.com/2009/08/14/we-a ... s-now.html
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by saip »

Smell is a mannerism?
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by brihaspati »

Lestat wrote
GUY, what is this MYTH among you Indians that Pakis watch Indian dramas or movies. My mother can't stand a single day without PAK dramas. It's almost like crack to her.
Curious! Curious! Why does the self-proclaimed authentic Paki bring in the "mother" as a counter-example? Some remnant Oedipus complex? That can actually perhaps suggest a partial explanation of Paki masochism. Notice that he has no problem in associating "crack" and addiction with his own mother. In this though he has shown himself to be a "typical" Paki - obsession with addiction/drugs/mother among others!
Indian dramas have the worst storylines with ridiculous background music emphasising stupid punchlines. Not only that, most of them are ugly actors & actresses who are all Bollywood rejects who can't perform. Honestly, they are just not EASY ON THE EYES. Paki dramas have people who look like us and frankly they can ACT. Our dramas are based on reality and art, not escapism for some slumie. Only kids who can't turn the channel off end up watching Indian dramas. Pakistan has hundreds of channels who can easily compete with Indian ones. One Indian Tamil at my Dad's workplace said that he had to ask his service provider to remove the channels so his poor mother wouldn't watch it.
He does not mention whether the Tamil is a Tamil muslim or not - for it is not very common to find Indians in the south who will follow up a serial in Paki Urdu. Note again the ref to the "mother". Is this repeated reference to the mother more than the fathers a sign of the possibility that Paki's do not have the presence of any father figures in their lives - or that maybe in general that "father" is missing or absent during the growing up period?

Alright - appearances of certain ethnicities may be looked upon as "ugly"! Most likely dogs find other dogs more attractive than humans - unless the human feeds them. So this is understandable. But what is curious is the claim of "reality" and "art". Since he has already acknowledged that terrorism is a constant feature of Pak society - all serials should be based on terrorism in Pak. What is "art" in Pak? Do we have some examples of Paki painters and novelists and designers who work in Pak and are internationally acclaimed - or say even acclaimed in the Islamic world? Actually here the BD muslims outscore in every aspect of art - internationally. In fact most of the serials on Paki channels have only one theme - that of "heterosexual love", nothing else. You do not see much of Pak outside the dimly lit rooms where all the "drama" plays out - that is reality!
On the other hand, I will admit that middle or poorer classes do watch Indian movies as form of entertainment. It's the same routine, just to watch the cheesy songs with the ugly Indian actresses with tons of make-up SHAKING HER ASS. It's just stress relief from their daily problems and who aren't really interested in storylines. Pak cinema was the best in the 60's and 70's but we lost the storyline in the 80's due to the Afghan war. We will get back on track soon enough.
So combined with his statement about his mother's addiction - this implies that he is claiming that he does not belong to the middle or poorer classes. Another aspect of the psychological profile of the Paki - who is constantly trying to desperately pretend that he is of a "higher social status" compared to the "aam aadmi", showing that he has extremely poor self-esteem. Note that he cannot stop himself from putting "SHAKING HER ASS" in uppercase. Another Paki male Freudian slip - where men everywhere are known from systematic scientific observations to be equally interested in the frontal projections in the female upper body as well as the gluteals - a Paki male inevitably is overwhelmingly obsessed with the gluteals only.

Finally comes the most interesting bit: that all the "reality" and "art" of a whole society and country gets thrown out of the door when a war happens in a neighbouring country! Officially, the pakis were not involved with their army in AFG - isnt it? Whatever happened was under the burqa! Now that should not upset the entire creativity of the whole country? Or does he want to say that all the filmmakers. storytellers, artists, and the cinema industry went to the Afghan war? Even in that case there would be plenty of material for "reality" and "art" in real war situations? Some of the greatest movies of the world have been made in the background of war and reality of war! Or that Pakis cannot face the most brutal reality of all - that of war? For a nation - for whom Jihad is the motto - creativity shuts down when faced with war!
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by Lestat »

harbans wrote:Guy, we were bought up studying your mannerisms. We can smell you guys out in a crowd of people lol.

You were taught as you yourself said: Hatred of Hindu's. Your propaganda would have included rubbish. You know nothing of our mannerisms because they are so different. Every Indian has his or her own individuality and is encouraged to pursue it. This has been from time immemorial. Even culinary habits are not the same within families too. There is variety in India. We cherish that. Within that variety we find our synergies. We detest homogenization like the CCP and the Paki's attempt within their own lands. Our trust and future is in our plurality, not some singularity of mannerisms as you suggest. The more you try not be Indic..the more you, your kin and family will traverse into hellish circumstances. Thats how it works. US is much more Indic now than what Indians are Americanized. Food for thought:
We Are All Hindus Now

America is not a Christian nation. We are, it is true, a nation founded by Christians, and according to a 2008 survey, 76 percent of us continue to identify as Christian (still, that's the lowest percentage in American history). Of course, we are not a Hindu—or Muslim, or Jewish, or Wiccan—nation, either. A million-plus Hindus live in the United States, a fraction of the billion who live on Earth. But recent poll data show that conceptually, at least, we are slowly becoming more like Hindus and less like traditional Christians in the ways we think about God, our selves, each other, and eternity.

The Rig Veda, the most ancient Hindu scripture, says this: "Truth is One, but the sages speak of it by many names." A Hindu believes there are many paths to God. Jesus is one way, the Qur'an is another, yoga practice is a third. None is better than any other; all are equal. The most traditional, conservative Christians have not been taught to think like this. They learn in Sunday school that their religion is true, and others are false. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me."

Americans are no longer buying it. According to a 2008 Pew Forum survey, 65 percent of us believe that "many religions can lead to eternal life"—including 37 percent of white evangelicals, the group most likely to believe that salvation is theirs alone. Also, the number of people who seek spiritual truth outside church is growing. Thirty percent of Americans call themselves "spiritual, not religious," according to a 2009 NEWSWEEK Poll, up from 24 percent in 2005. Stephen Prothero, religion professor at Boston University, has long framed the American propensity for "the divine-deli-cafeteria religion" as "very much in the spirit of Hinduism. You're not picking and choosing from different religions, because they're all the same," he says. "It isn't about orthodoxy. It's about whatever works. If going to yoga works, great—and if going to Catholic mass works, great. And if going to Catholic mass plus the yoga plus the Buddhist retreat works, that's great, too."

Then there's the question of what happens when you die. Christians traditionally believe that bodies and souls are sacred, that together they comprise the "self," and that at the end of time they will be reunited in the Resurrection. You need both, in other words, and you need them forever. Hindus believe no such thing. At death, the body burns on a pyre, while the spirit—where identity resides—escapes. In reincarnation, central to Hinduism, selves come back to earth again and again in different bodies. So here is another way in which Americans are becoming more Hindu: 24 percent of Americans say they believe in reincarnation, according to a 2008 Harris poll. So agnostic are we about the ultimate fates of our bodies that we're burning them—like Hindus—after death. More than a third of Americans now choose cremation, according to the Cremation Association of North America, up from 6 percent in 1975.
http://www.newsweek.com/2009/08/14/we-a ... s-now.html
Go take this article and show it to some redneck in Tennessee. Tell me what happens lol.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by RajeshA »

Lestat wrote:Keep dreaming...no loyal Pakistani would ever call himself an Indian. Even Mexicans hate being called Indian in America lol.
There have been dozen of cases I know of, where a Paki tried to sell himself as an Indian in Continental Europe.

I guess you don't really have that many loyal Pakistanis.

Pakistan is a country of actors, everyone trying to outdo the other in terms of Pakistani Watan Parasti, or Islamic piety. Some actors really start identifying themselves with their characters, but most know it is only acting.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by harbans »

Go take this article and show it to some redneck in Tennessee. Tell me what happens lol.

Thousands of copies were sold in Redneck areas too. They too will come around the Indic way. Paki's already lost half what they set out with. Continue with your line of thought. Your kinds will get wiped out completely. Personally checked out redneck type forums too. There was anguish, but then truth always wins. That's India's motive. It's been so for millenia before Islam took a peek in the deserts of Saudi Barbaria.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by Mahendra »

Lestati

What is your opinion on the $ 25 million of flood aid donated by India to your impoverished country? Perhaps it would have been better to die of hunger than accept aid from Kuffar!
saip
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by saip »

It is not me, its Reuters!
According to Reuters report, Pakistanis in America are pretending to be INDIANS!

"A lot of Pakistanis can't get jobs after 9/11 and now it's even worse," said Asghar Choudhri, an accountant and chairman of Brooklyn's Pakistani American Merchant Association. "They are now pretending they are Indian so they can get a job."
Ashgar Choudhri must be a disloyal paki :rotfl:
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by brihaspati »

Lestat wrote
Keep dreaming...no loyal Pakistani would ever call himself an Indian. Even Mexicans hate being called Indian in America lol.

The word "Paki" was first used as a demonym to describe Pakistanis like Brits, Aussies, Yankies, Kiwies, and Canucks. Some Indians were accidently got called one as well in due course. They took it as such an insult because of the constant hatred between us. That the flipping word is now used by every Brit to irritate Indians. ex. (Goody & Shilpa incident on Big Brother)

Guy, Indians stink like hell because you guys mix sooo much spices in your veggies to bring out the taste.
Only Indians wear turbans in the general public eye AKA Sikhs.
Only, Indians are black as night and FUGLY AKA Tamils & South Indians.

And thus, the word is used to describe South Asians in general who are majorally Indians (a billion plus).

HEY, I AM PROUD TO BE A PAKI. Call me one lol.
Why the accident - if Pakis are so different physically? On the street a drunk Brit half-wit kid cannot distinguish between Pakis and Indians and they lash out against the Paki because they absolutely hate Pakis! Moreover, as per his claim - Indians are timid - so even if they felt insulted they could not have expressed that feeling of insult to the extent that their abusers realized the utility of the term "Paki"!

Actually the Paki insistence on being able to smell Indians out - is another aspect of the Paki psychology which works perhaps at a more animal meme level than humans. Certain species of animals are obsessed with scents and smells - like dogs (but then dogs do not betray), and pigs - both are employed in tracking therefore. It takes almost dog or piglike smelling ability to pick out individuals in a crowd - hence their use in forensic detection. It may be worthwhile to put this ability to the test - arrange for scientific testing of the smelling ability of Pakis comparable to dogs or pigs. If the Paki can successfully pass - it may mean at least some profession at which Pakis are useful, and combined with some human-like intelligence and rigorous training may be useful for crime detection.

It is also possible that the intense derision of veggies points to the poor state of agriculture in Pak, with inability to grow vegetables and dependence on meat. But then Islamic charities are desperate every year to raise money to have qurbani meat distributed among "millions" of Pakis who supposedly rarely see meat in their diet - as per TV-Jihadvangelists. Well maybe those are all the middle and poor "classes" and the upper-"class" Pakis only survive on meat. That can explain the constant psychological irritation that Pakis display - since only meat in diet can reduce intestinal motility and quickly results in week-long or even longer lasting retention of what should normally have been expelled (both in the solid and liquid department). That has profound psychological implications according to most medical studies.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by harbans »

There have been dozen of cases I know of, where a Paki tried to sell himself as an Indian

Personally witnessed that too many times. Few times i have directly clarified. Looks like Pockroaches don't have much pride. It's all bluster including this Pockroach. Good mods have confined him to this thread. One has to confine these roaches and limit/ and consequently terminate their ability to spread bile and stink.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by Mahendra »

Image

We are different onlee :rotfl:
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by Mahendra »

Image
Mahendra
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by Mahendra »

Image

We hate America but we beg from them and we also display our forearms !
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by Lestat »

Mahendra wrote:Lestati

What is your opinion on the $ 25 million of flood aid donated by India to your impoverished country? Perhaps it would have been better to die of hunger than accept aid from Kuffar!
Guy, I remember when India rejected Paki aid during the Gujurat Earthquake because you guys kept crying about the 1993 Bombay bombings. Now you guys cry about 26/11. We rejected that aid because of the abuses that happened in Kashmir due to the recent protests. So, give me a break.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by Gus »

Adminullahs, Please end this misery.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by harbans »

So, give me a break.

Maybe 23 more to go for that. Still some time.. :wink:
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by saip »

I dont where you get your info, but this is what I remember:
Pakistani President Pervez Mushrraf sent a plane load of relief supplies to India from Islamabad to Ahmedabad.[9] That carried 200 tents and more than 2,000 Blankets [10].Furthermore the President called Indian PM to express his 'sympathy' over the loss from the earthquake
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by saip »

Hey, who is that guy who was allowed to commit hundred sins by Lord Krishna before his head was chopped off? May be the adminullas are also waiting for his hundredth sin.
Last edited by saip on 04 Nov 2010 02:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Pakistani POV

Post by Mahendra »

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