MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

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GeorgeWelch
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by GeorgeWelch »

nachiket wrote:^^If we are this suspicious
Good thing the actual decision makers aren't paranoid loons.

Because seriously if you are going to fear every rumor, you might as well cower in your basement and never come out

Here's some for you:

- France will include a code to disable export Rafales and will sell it to China. (like Exocet)
- Russia will be unable/unwilling to supply key components (like tires) resulting in a grounded fleet. (oh wait)
- The Eurofighter consortium is too fragmented with too many opposing interests, so any conflict could result in an embargo from any of the members.
- Sweden is actually a front for aliens from Betelgeuse and will use equipment in the Gripen to probe pilots and determine which subjects to abduct for further research. (Hey, can you prove Sweden is NOT a front for aliens? Thought not.)
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Rakesh »

^^^Greetings Earthling...I am Spock, son of Sarek from the planet Vulcan. How you doing? The Super Hornet sounds most inconvenient. Have you considered having it removed?

Image

or how about this one? :)

I am Locutus... of Borg. Resistance... is futile. Your life as it has been... is over. From this time forward... you will service... us.

Image

But in all seriousness George, we SDREs all have opinions on everything under the sun and the MMRCA just gives us a chance to vent our frustrations, which in many cases has nothing to do with the MMRCA itself. We are like this onleee :) Don't worry though, like I have said in the past, you are gonna get your wish. Rakhi Sawant is going to be welcomed with much fanfare in the IAF and they are the end user of this aircraft and not us Armchair Generals/Admirals and they know what they are doing unlike us. This "new" Indo-US bonhomie is here to stay and we are like a newly married couple...we are NOT going to agree on everything but we do see the larger picture. This is a different experience for you, because we are not "yes men" like our neighbour across the border whom you may have dealt with in the past. We are just having fun yaar, relax!
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Cosmo_R »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
nachiket wrote:^^If we are this suspicious
Good thing the actual decision makers aren't paranoid loons.

- Sweden is actually a front for aliens from Betelgeuse and will use equipment in the Gripen to probe pilots and determine which subjects to abduct for further research. (Hey, can you prove Sweden is NOT a front for aliens? Thought not.)
Oddly, I have always suspected Sweden as a front for Beetlejuice. They put in a lot of effort to make us think otherwise—throwing red herrings every which way.

Maybe the truth will out in the next episode of Wikileaks once Assange gets his act togther.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Cosmo_R »

Rakesh wrote: "Cosmo_R wrote:
...strategic convergence WRT to PRC

Cosmo, I have heard that line one too many times. How does us buying 126 F-18s give us any advantage vis-a-vis China? Or for that matter 126 Rafales or 126 Typhoons? We are on our own against China and at the rate China is arming itself militarily, we are going to lose a war against them if one does occur. It will 1962 look like a picnic.'^^^

One very obvious way IMHO, it will help us is in attrition replacement. In a pinch, we could also 'borrow' USN F/A-18s. But just the supply chain is a big thing and something we tend to gloss over. The ideal is we rely 100% on ourselves. The reality is we are 75% dependent on others.

As to it being, a picnic, nearly 50 years later, GoI is slowly waking up to the need for NE development including infrastructure. I find it laughable that one excuse given for the slow building of roads is that the Environment Ministry withheld permission to BRO. :)

PRC does not have to attack us. The NE people are so disaffected by the lack of attention from Dilli, that they are casting covetous glances across the border where there are jobs and infrastructure. This is anecdotal—a retired IA doctor who spent many years in the NE and who was on a flight with me, told me this and a lot more over a four hour period.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by manum »

Cosmo_R wrote: PRC does not have to attack us. The NE people are so disaffected by the lack of attention from Dilli, that they are casting covetous glances across the border where there are jobs and infrastructure. This is anecdotal—a retired IA doctor who spent many years in the NE and who was on a flight with me, told me this and a lot more over a four hour period.
This kind of problem will always remain with us...I deal with my Bank manager, he is also from NE, he is more worries about growing population of Muslims in NE...than anything else. There are counter arguments to such thing as well...

but how many worries you can sort out...for such a diverse country, guess we need Football team equivalent to Cricket team popularity in world cup having players from NE and Kashmir...to get them more interested in national stuff...and us getting few heroes from there to cheer for...

Its OT, please do not reply to me... :)
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote:
I am Locutus... of Borg. Resistance... is futile. Your life as it has been... is over. From this time forward... you will service... us.
Hmmm, Borg sounds Swedish. Maybe George was right about the Swedes being aliens. :lol:
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by shukla »

Combat aircraft deal shortlist to be out soon
Financial Express
The ministry sources have told FE the deal is again gathering steam with a concrete offset policy to be in place by April end. “The shortlisted candidates for the MMRCA deal would be announced by beginning of May,” said a source from the ministry. Following the announcement the commercial negotiations for the contract will begin.

The detailed policy is expected to concretise the opening of the civil aviation and internal security in more certain terms, so that there will be no room for confusion. The defence offsets policy is likely to bring in $10 billion during the 11th Five-Year Plan period (2007-11). “The changes are likely to provide invitations to offer offsets proposals to be issued to only those vendors who are validated as technically qualified by the respective service. The shortlisted vendor will be invited for opening of their respective commercial bids,” a source said.

The ministry’s Technical Oversight Committee (ToC) is currently looking at the offset proposals submitted by the contenders for the deal. Currently, both technical and commercial offset proposals need to be submitted by all vendors competing in a tender. Under the current policy, ToE will examine technical offset proposals, and the commercial offset proposals — submitted as sealed proposals — will be opened only when the respective commercial offer for the vendor is opened.

According to sources, the changes are being designed to help the MMRCA tender process, which is governed by the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2006 and plans to seek a legal route for approval to implement the revision with retrospective effect. Simultaneously, their proposals for transfer of technology, critical for the rapid development of an Indian capability to build advanced fighters, are also being examined.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by NRao »

Its OT, please do not reply to me..
Next PM of India?

If you can get some track 4 talks going ......... perfect fit.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by shyamd »

Rakesh wrote:
From a pure technical stand point, the F-18 Super Hornet is a superior aircraft - in the sensors arena - to all the other aircraft in the MMRCA contest. No one will dispute that and I am sure the IAF would like to get their hands on the same version that their USN counterparts are flying. However is that what we are going to get? NO. And I will NOT buy the argument that Rakhi Sawant meets the requirements set out in the MMRCA contest. Those are only the bare minimum we need and if you can supersede those requirements than all the more better.

Secondly, have you read the interview in which the PAF officer mentioned that their brand new F-Solah Block 52 aircraft are so bugged up that their pilots can't even take a piss without Uncle Sam knowing?

That is the issue here. We don't small black boxes fitted in these aircraft which tells Uncle Sam where we are flying and what we are doing. Give us the same aircraft you guys are flying and let us do what we want to it. Otherwise we don't need it. We don't CISMOA and LSA.
You got it bang on. They'll bug it up thanks to US COngress, State dept. They'll impose conditions and we'll have to explain to them everytime we want to use it. The europeans have FAAR less conditions on how we use it - FACT.

India uses a hi - lo mix. LCAs, Mirages etc fill in the low mix. High mix is Su-30s, MRCA, PAKFA.

So bets are on to procure somehting like EF. It also gives us options wrt foreign policy. India will opt for Mirage replacement with Rafale's in long run. So bets are for EF. Having a oiropean aircraft gives us greater options, it means we can join in on any NATO op should we want to. It opens options, keeps us less reliant on anyone.

My bet is that India will go for EF, but we'll have to develop the A2G stuff. KSA wants F-15SE's for A2G ops, so sounds like EF fails in its A2G ops, so is effectively just an interceptor.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Gurneesh »

So a shortlist will come by beginning of May and after that atleast an year to sign the contract. A far cry from the earlier mentioned signing of contract by April End.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by RoyG »

shyamd wrote:
Rakesh wrote:
From a pure technical stand point, the F-18 Super Hornet is a superior aircraft - in the sensors arena - to all the other aircraft in the MMRCA contest. No one will dispute that and I am sure the IAF would like to get their hands on the same version that their USN counterparts are flying. However is that what we are going to get? NO. And I will NOT buy the argument that Rakhi Sawant meets the requirements set out in the MMRCA contest. Those are only the bare minimum we need and if you can supersede those requirements than all the more better.

Secondly, have you read the interview in which the PAF officer mentioned that their brand new F-Solah Block 52 aircraft are so bugged up that their pilots can't even take a piss without Uncle Sam knowing?

That is the issue here. We don't small black boxes fitted in these aircraft which tells Uncle Sam where we are flying and what we are doing. Give us the same aircraft you guys are flying and let us do what we want to it. Otherwise we don't need it. We don't CISMOA and LSA.
You got it bang on. They'll bug it up thanks to US COngress, State dept. They'll impose conditions and we'll have to explain to them everytime we want to use it. The europeans have FAAR less conditions on how we use it - FACT.

India uses a hi - lo mix. LCAs, Mirages etc fill in the low mix. High mix is Su-30s, MRCA, PAKFA.

So bets are on to procure somehting like EF. It also gives us options wrt foreign policy. India will opt for Mirage replacement with Rafale's in long run. So bets are for EF. Having a oiropean aircraft gives us greater options, it means we can join in on any NATO op should we want to. It opens options, keeps us less reliant on anyone.

My bet is that India will go for EF, but we'll have to develop the A2G stuff. KSA wants F-15SE's for A2G ops, so sounds like EF fails in its A2G ops, so is effectively just an interceptor.
Isn't the mmrca supposed to eventually replace the role of the mirage as well? What makes the eurofighter better than the rafale?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by NRao »

Develop what? A2G?

AFTER we pay $12 billion?

Yikes..............
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Cosmo_R »

@Shyamd^^^: "Having a oiropean aircraft gives us greater options, it means we can join in on any NATO op should we want to. It opens options, keeps us less reliant on anyone."

IMHO the possibilities are endless and so are the problems. MRCA is a gap filler. It has to work off the shelf. Do we really want to spend 5-7 years 'integrating' something?

EF makes us reliant on more people (consortium members). The Rafale brings the full power of the French State (Carla Bruni) behind India.

If we could have had the LCA Mk2 now in quantity, I'd plump for that. But supply chain, production runs, and technology argue for the F/A-18 or the F-16.

Anyway, we should know what our cunning chankiyan babus decide within the next five years or so. :)
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by shyamd »

^^ but you know I think they'll move most production of parts to india. Let's wait and see. The french seem most desparate actually, so we can get a VERY good deal on rafale, like full ToT with joint research/improvements etc etc. ToT of parts & we sell them to France.

N Rao - indeed! But given the choices, we may have no choice but to perhaps work on an MKI style agreement for A2G..

But I guess the IAF must have watched the libyan/afg performance of the contenders
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Luxtor »

shyamd wrote:
Rakesh wrote:
From a pure technical stand point, the F-18 Super Hornet is a superior aircraft - in the sensors arena - to all the other aircraft in the MMRCA contest. No one will dispute that and I am sure the IAF would like to get their hands on the same version that their USN counterparts are flying. However is that what we are going to get? NO. And I will NOT buy the argument that Rakhi Sawant meets the requirements set out in the MMRCA contest. Those are only the bare minimum we need and if you can supersede those requirements than all the more better.

Secondly, have you read the interview in which the PAF officer mentioned that their brand new F-Solah Block 52 aircraft are so bugged up that their pilots can't even take a piss without Uncle Sam knowing?

That is the issue here. We don't small black boxes fitted in these aircraft which tells Uncle Sam where we are flying and what we are doing. Give us the same aircraft you guys are flying and let us do what we want to it. Otherwise we don't need it. We don't CISMOA and LSA.
You got it bang on. They'll bug it up thanks to US COngress, State dept. They'll impose conditions and we'll have to explain to them everytime we want to use it. The europeans have FAAR less conditions on how we use it - FACT.

India uses a hi - lo mix. LCAs, Mirages etc fill in the low mix. High mix is Su-30s, MRCA, PAKFA.

So bets are on to procure somehting like EF. It also gives us options wrt foreign policy. India will opt for Mirage replacement with Rafale's in long run. So bets are for EF. Having a oiropean aircraft gives us greater options, it means we can join in on any NATO op should we want to. It opens options, keeps us less reliant on anyone.

My bet is that India will go for EF, but we'll have to develop the A2G stuff. KSA wants F-15SE's for A2G ops, so sounds like EF fails in its A2G ops, so is effectively just an interceptor.
Why would India want to have the EF for interceptor/air superiority/dominance role and Rafale for A2G roll in the future when Rafale is good at both air sup/dom plus A2G role? That's why Rafale is called an omni-role fighter. Having EF and Rafale would be very expensive and wasteful. I think that EF has too many cooks in the kitchen and you already have been seeing how the different partner countries been squabbling about how many numbers they want and don't want. They still have not fully developed the EF into a ground attack aircraft; as a matter of fact, ground attack has been an after thought for the EF designers. Rafale was right from the beginning designed and built for air to air as well as air to ground role, much like the F-18SH except Rafale comes with none of Uncle Sam's wild demands for agreements and requirements for on site inspections, unwillingness to share high level of ToT, source codes etc.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Sumeet »

How much I wish if we had just got M2K-9 back in 04. That way at least we would put all our effort, resources, concentration on PAK-FA, AMCA and LCA for most part of last decade and not be fooling around in the way we have during this MRCA saga.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by NRao »

but you know I think they'll move most production of parts to india
Your memo has NOT reached the Prez of EADS. He clearly stated that they will not.

They were willing to move some design group to India (of an non existing plane I guess).

The plane will help India. Politics will hinder India. I just do not think there is political convergence between Europe and India.

Still prefer them bugged bugs.

I still say 125 16/18s and 75 grips.

(BTW, I would suggest that EADS buy the AMCA. :wink: )
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Luxtor »

shukla wrote:Combat aircraft deal shortlist to be out soon
Financial Express
The ministry sources have told FE the deal is again gathering steam with a concrete offset policy to be in place by April end. “The shortlisted candidates for the MMRCA deal would be announced by beginning of May,” said a source from the ministry. Following the announcement the commercial negotiations for the contract will begin.

The detailed policy is expected to concretise the opening of the civil aviation and internal security in more certain terms, so that there will be no room for confusion. The defence offsets policy is likely to bring in $10 billion during the 11th Five-Year Plan period (2007-11). “The changes are likely to provide invitations to offer offsets proposals to be issued to only those vendors who are validated as technically qualified by the respective service. The shortlisted vendor will be invited for opening of their respective commercial bids,” a source said.

The ministry’s Technical Oversight Committee (ToC) is currently looking at the offset proposals submitted by the contenders for the deal. Currently, both technical and commercial offset proposals need to be submitted by all vendors competing in a tender. Under the current policy, ToE will examine technical offset proposals, and the commercial offset proposals — submitted as sealed proposals — will be opened only when the respective commercial offer for the vendor is opened.

According to sources, the changes are being designed to help the MMRCA tender process, which is governed by the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2006 and plans to seek a legal route for approval to implement the revision with retrospective effect. Simultaneously, their proposals for transfer of technology, critical for the rapid development of an Indian capability to build advanced fighters, are also being examined.
... waiting with bated breath. :D I'm not sure if there is a standard for how many types need to be on the shortlist but my bet is the shortlisted candidates will be Rafale, EF, F-18SH and MiG-35. The F-18 and MiG-35 might be put in there to give some competition/food for thought to keep the Europeans honest and the prices of the Rafale and EF from being more astronomical than they already are. When I was a kid I used to feel like this waiting for Diwali to come around.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by shukla »

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by neeraj »

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Wy7qNgYB0_w/T ... /mmrca.jpg

How come media has got copy of the tender - is it in public domain
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by abhik »

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:...So, let's say, for the sake of argument, that the US has a satellite in orbit, and it 'pings' a very low-power, encrypted signal downward... and a US-made piece of kit receives the signal... it could conceivably respond in a directional fashion, directly to the satellite in orbit, without drawing any power from on-board systems.
..
A bug so advanced would put the Americans in a fix, is its technology more advanced than the aircraft that it is supposed to bug? What if it falls in the wrong hands or somebody reverse engineers it? :-?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by shyamd »

NRao wrote:
but you know I think they'll move most production of parts to india
Your memo has NOT reached the Prez of EADS. He clearly stated that they will not.

They were willing to move some design group to India (of an non existing plane I guess).

The plane will help India. Politics will hinder India. I just do not think there is political convergence between Europe and India.

Still prefer them bugged bugs.

I still say 125 16/18s and 75 grips.

(BTW, I would suggest that EADS buy the AMCA. :wink: )
Didn't they say they will transfer some assemblies to Desh? Then we have the offset stuff.

The bugged ones will be chosen if the theory that we have an alliance with Unkil over PRC is true. Its a test case for me. But it allows us to deploye Su-30 on TSP. Bugged ones over PRC. But what if US turns its back in the last moment? Agreements are just worth their paper. So, this will play on strategists minds. EF come free of such political probs.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Rakesh »

neeraj wrote:http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Wy7qNgYB0_w/T ... /mmrca.jpg

How come media has got copy of the tender - is it in public domain
That article is classic DDM. Full of errors. Please ignore.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

abhik wrote:
Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:...So, let's say, for the sake of argument, that the US has a satellite in orbit, and it 'pings' a very low-power, encrypted signal downward... and a US-made piece of kit receives the signal... it could conceivably respond in a directional fashion, directly to the satellite in orbit, without drawing any power from on-board systems.
..
A bug so advanced would put the Americans in a fix, is its technology more advanced than the aircraft that it is supposed to bug? What if it falls in the wrong hands or somebody reverse engineers it? :-?
From what I understand, the Khan's teens were designed in the 1970s. By comparison, the first fractal antennas were conceived and designed only in 1995. Also, RFIDs have only matured within the last ten years.

So therefore; YES, these technologies are newer than the A/C the Americans have entered into the MMRCA contest. Admittedly, it is hard to call 'fractal antennae' and 'RFID tags' "more advanced", since that would be like comparing apples and oranges. But, these technologies did not exist when the F-16 and F-18 were first designed.

As for these technologies falling into the wrong hands, or being subjected to reverse engineering; the threat is from these devices being secretly integrated into equipment one has purchased from someone else; which means that as long as the Americans buy American warplanes, they don't have to worry about this danger.

The danger I was pointing out, concerns Indians buying American warplanes. I was simply trying to counter GeorgeWelch's contention that a "bugged" warplane would be easy to detect. In fact, with these technologies, it would be very, very hard for the IAF to detect and identify an American "bug" embedded into an American warplane (if it is built on fractal antennae and RFID technology; where the form factor is extremely thin, even transparent, and the power source is the inbound 'ping' signal itself, rather than anything we might imagine being hard-wired into the aircraft).

Again, for the record: I am not saying this is definitely part of the American's bids -- only that it is technologically possible, despite what GeorgeWelch would have you believe.

CONFIDENTIAL TO GeorgeWelch: I will admit that there is a trust deficit among many Indians concerning the intentions of Americans, if you will admit that this mistrust is a two-way street, and Americans are also mistrustful of Indian's intentions.

In this context, the American mistrust of India is a motive, the technology I've described is the means, and if the MMRCA winner is a teen, this will also provide the opportunity.

Motive + Means + Opportunity = Bugged teens in the IAF + Operational Risk + Strategic Constraint for India

IMO, this is yet another reason to buy either Rafale or Mig-35 (I like the Mig-35 in particular, for its thrust-vectoring engines).
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:the power source is the inbound 'ping' signal itself, rather than anything we might imagine being hard-wired into the aircraft).
That is simply not feasible. RFID is extremely short ranged, certainly nothing of the range that could reach satellites.

It might work from 50 meters, but if they were within 50 meters anyways . . .
Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:only that it is technologically possible
It is not.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by svinayak »

RFID info can be stored in the hardware and extracted at opportunity during inspection or servicing.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Acharya wrote:RFID info can be stored in the hardware and extracted at opportunity during inspection or servicing.
1. If they have physical access to the devices, no RF-anything is required.

2. I think you would agree that any after-the-fact info is far less useful than real-time tracking, no?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:CONFIDENTIAL TO GeorgeWelch: I will admit that there is a trust deficit among many Indians concerning the intentions of Americans, if you will admit that this mistrust is a two-way street, and Americans are also mistrustful of Indian's intentions.

In this context, the American mistrust of India is a motive
I strongly disagree with this.

If there is any mistrust on the US side, it is related to the nuclear weapons and tests thereof.

There is no mistrust about the use of fighters, bugging the fighters would provide no info on nuclear activities and so there is no motive.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Cosmo_R »

NRao wrote:
but you know I think they'll move most production of parts to india
Your memo has NOT reached the Prez of EADS. He clearly stated that they will not.

They were willing to move some design group to India (of an non existing plane I guess).

The plane will help India. Politics will hinder India. I just do not think there is political convergence between Europe and India.

Still prefer them bugged bugs.

I still say 125 16/18s and 75 grips.

(BTW, I would suggest that EADS buy the AMCA. :wink: )
Agree with all except splitting the order. 190 F-16s/18s or 126 + 75 LCA Mk2.

EADS is thinking of sourcing tires :) in India.

Europe is a non-player in all of Asia and frankly most of the world.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:the power source is the inbound 'ping' signal itself, rather than anything we might imagine being hard-wired into the aircraft).
That is simply not feasible. RFID is extremely short ranged, certainly nothing of the range that could reach satellites.

It might work from 50 meters, but if they were within 50 meters anyways . . .
Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:only that it is technologically possible
It is not.
Please review this... http://www.numerex.com/files/announce/0 ... ournal.PDF
Hybrid Tag Includes Active RFID, GPS, Satellite and Sensors

Feb. 24, 2009—Numerex, an Atlanta-based provider of fixed and mobile machine-to-machine wireless solutions and network services, and RFID systems supplier Savi Technology have unveiled an intelligent hybrid tag that combines active RFID, satellite communications and Global Positioning System (GPS) technologies. The tag is designed to track goods anywhere within a global supply chain, whether they are waiting in a warehouse, being loaded onto a ship or sitting in a desert at a bare-bones military outpost.

The tag, known as the ST-694 GlobalTag, has been in development since the summer of 2007, as part of a cooperative research and development contract for the U.S Transportation Command (USTRANSCOM), the U.S. Department of Defense (DOD) group responsible for creating and implementing global deployment and distribution solutions for the U.S. military and government.
...

Therefore, Savi Technology and Numerex opted to marry satellite and GPS tracking with active RFID into a single device controlled by one microprocessor. Not only can the tag automatically and intelligently switch between active RFID and satellite communications as necessary, but the data can be viewed using a single back-end system.

The ST-694 includes an active Savi tag that complies with ISO 18000-7, the standard for real-time locating systems that employ active tags operating at 433 MHz. The ST-694 also includes the SX1, a tag unveiled one year ago by Orbit One, a division of Numerex. The SX1, which comes with a field-replaceable lithium battery, an internal motion sensor and an integrated GPS chipset, communicates with Globalstar's low Earth orbit (LEO) satellites (see Orbit One Launches Satellite-Based RFID Service).
...

Additionally, the ST-694 comes equipped with a motion sensor. In the event that motion is detected for at least a half-hour, the sensor will automatically instruct the tag to operate in satellite communications mode.
...

There have also been prototype hybrid tags that combine RFID and satellite communications. In 2005, in fact, the Department of Defense tested a version that included a Savi active tag (see DOD Tries Tags That Phone Home).

A year ago, Siemens IT Solutions and Services conducted a proof-of-technology test on a solution that combined active RFID transponders and sensors with GSM and GPRS telecommunications technology installed on ships. The solution communicated the RFID and sensor data to a satellite telecommunications service operated by Inmarsat (see Cargo-Tracking System Combines RFID, Sensors, GSM and Satellite).
...
The above notwithstanding: I think we can all agree that the epitome of technology is never found in commercially-available products. For that, you'd have to find the 'black products' that are held in secret, as war reserve or for the sake of espionage. Some of us will expect such 'black products' to be embedded in US-made war materiale, despite any assurances to the contrary.

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:CONFIDENTIAL TO GeorgeWelch: I will admit that there is a trust deficit among many Indians concerning the intentions of Americans, if you will admit that this mistrust is a two-way street, and Americans are also mistrustful of Indian's intentions.

In this context, the American mistrust of India is a motive
I strongly disagree with this.

If there is any mistrust on the US side, it is related to the nuclear weapons and tests thereof.

There is no mistrust about the use of fighters, bugging the fighters would provide no info on nuclear activities and so there is no motive.
Dear GeorgeWelch,

If you must, you may "strongly disagree with this" in one breath, and in the very next, qualify that statement with a very big "If there is any mistrust on the US side, it is related to the nuclear weapons and tests thereof." However, you should recognize that America's collusion with the TSP's own nuclear weapons program, plus gifts of F-16s and Harpoons, et cetera; only serve to give Indians a solid basis for their mistrust of America.

Please stop pretending that any mistrust of American policy or strategy is some kind of knee-jerk anti-Americanism. It is not. Rather, it is a learned response that was trained into us by honest observation, bitter experience and bloody truth.

If this serves to hurt American business interests, well, that's just karma.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:Please review this... http://www.numerex.com/files/announce/0 ... ournal.PDF
Hybrid Tag Includes Active RFID, GPS, Satellite and Sensors

combines active RFID, satellite communications and Global Positioning System (GPS) technologies.
It is NOT powered by the incoming radio waves like you were claiming, it must be connected to a power source.

In other words, it is a traditional radio transmitter.

A passive RFID system like you were trying to suggest simply does not have the range to be useful.
Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:If you must, you may "strongly disagree with this" in one breath, and in the very next, qualify that statement
I'm sorry you misread my statement, but there was no qualification whatsoever.

I strong disagree that "American mistrust of India is a motive" for bugging BECAUSE any mistrust would be directed at nukes, not fighters.

It was not a qualification, it was an explanation of why I disagree said statement.
Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:Please stop pretending that any mistrust of American policy or strategy is some kind of knee-jerk anti-Americanism
Again you're completely off on what I was saying. I was not commenting on Indian mistrust, I was commenting on US mistrust. Your fundamental claim is that the US would bug the planes because the US mistrusts India, and that is what I disagree with.

India doesn't trust the US because of sanctions or whatever, fine. However, recognize that the US does NOT actually have the same concerns about India. How India uses the fighters simply isn't a big concern to the US. It just isn't.

In fact, their biggest concern with fighters is simply technology leakage to China, which should a concern to India too.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by putnanja »

There is a big concern for US if India escalates and US policy in Af-Pak is in danger. If there is a danger to the US interests in the region, the US wants to have a leverage to halt/delay the action against pakis
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Rakesh »

GeorgeWelch wrote:In fact, their biggest concern with fighters is simply technology leakage to China, which should a concern to India too.
So I guess the 'free' F-16 Block 52s to Pakistan was a mistake then? Not to mention AIM-120C5 AMRAAMs, Sniper pods, EW equipment...all for hunting the Taliban! :)
GeorgeWelch wrote:How India uses the fighters simply isn't a big concern to the US. It just isn't.
That is actually funny. Thanks for the humour! :rotfl: Guess you have not heard of EUMA.

http://news.rediff.com/special/2009/jul ... tsheet.htm

From the above link....
For example, Navy chief Admiral Suresh Mehta had publicly described EUMA as 'intrusive.' Speaking at an April 2008 conference organised by the London-based International Strategic Studies Institute in New Delhi, Admiral Mehta said: 'There are certain things we can't agree to. As a sovereign nation, we can't accept intrusiveness into our system, so there is some fundamental difficulty.'

He added: 'The US may have this kind of (end user) agreements with everyone. I don't believe in that. We pay for something and we get some technology. What I do with it, is my thing.'
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Gerard »

Don't forget the Harpoon missiles to take out the Taliban Navy
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Rakesh »

^^^Yup Yup...I heard the Taliban just inducted FREMM frigates from France to patrol the Hindu Kush mountains. There is actually water there ... we dhoti-wearing SDREs just have not looked hard enough. The AIM-120C5 missiles are meant to shoot down unmanned aerial vehicles that the Taliban Air Force sends to spy on Pakistan.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by GeorgeWelch »

putnanja wrote:There is a big concern for US if India escalates and US policy in Af-Pak is in danger. If there is a danger to the US interests in the region, the US wants to have a leverage to halt/delay the action against pakis
And what leverage does after-the-fact reporting provide?

If the US wants to know if India attacks Pakistan, it doesn't need super-secret tracking devices, it can simply turn on the news.
Last edited by GeorgeWelch on 26 Apr 2011 01:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Rakesh wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:In fact, their biggest concern with fighters is simply technology leakage to China, which should a concern to India too.
So I guess the 'free' F-16 Block 52s to Pakistan was a mistake then?
Well that was the reason for the unusual restriction on the Pakis.
Rakesh wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:How India uses the fighters simply isn't a big concern to the US. It just isn't.
That is actually funny. Thanks for the humour! :rotfl: Guess you have not heard of EUMA.
That is the law, it applies to everyone.

There is no specific concern about India.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Rakesh »

GeorgeWelch wrote:Well that was the reason for the unusual restriction on the Pakis.
And what restriction is that? :)
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Rakesh wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:Well that was the reason for the unusual restriction on the Pakis.
And what restriction is that? :)
Which airbase they could operate from, no Chinese on base.

So you cannot operate it from any base where you also base Chinese aircraft that would require support from Chinese technicians.

That would limit you how exactly?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion - March 2011

Post by Rakesh »

GeorgeWelch wrote:Which airbase they could operate from, no Chinese on base.

So you cannot operate it from any base where you also base Chinese aircraft that would require support from Chinese technicians.

That would limit you how exactly?
So I guess you would not have any clue if their Block 52s (which are actually yours) took off from Jacobabad and landed in Sargodha?
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