RIP Bal Thackeray

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shiv
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Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by shiv »

varunkumar wrote: You are strangely quiet on the oppression of Maratha people in their own homeland by South Indians in the decades after independence, as told in this post of Atri:
In most of the government offices, somehow there were forces which did not allow a marathi person to raise up beyond class-2 level. If anyone was at all promoted, there used to be countless inquiries, transfers and other roadblocks. As far as I understand history, this has been happening ever since MKG's assassination. There were lobbies of South Indians (My father's words) which somehow brought their person from TN to do the job in MH, but refused to promote a Marathi person for the same job.


If South Indians were really doing this to Marathas in Mumbai and other Marathi-speaking areas, then maybe they got what they deserved at the hands of Balasaheb. You are deliberately focussing on the push-back of the Marathas but not on what caused them to behave like that. Maybe being a south Indian is clouding your judgement.
Oh I am sure they got what they deserved. No doubt about that. But that only shows up Bal Thackray as an opportunist who went for the flavor of the day. Not a great leader. The South Indians were bad so they got their deserving asses kicked. the North Indians were bad so they got their sorry behinds handed to them. Muslims are bad and Thackray sorted them out. Every time Thackray got stronger. In Mumbai. In his cosy fiefdom. I accept all this.

But do not tell me Thackray was some kind of national level leader. He was not capable of more than what he did. He is gone now and will be remembered only for what he did and not for anything more or less.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhijitm »

Shiv, when in power it was his government and everyone knew he the one was controlling it. He too took the flak continuously throughout his life and beyond.
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Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by abhijitm »

shiv wrote:But do not tell me Thackray was some kind of national level leader. He was not capable of more than what he did. He is gone now and will be remembered only for what he did and not for anything more or less.
You keep saying that. What do you mean by 'National Leader'? What is your hypothesis?
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhishek_sharma »

>> If South Indians were really doing this to Marathas in Mumbai and other Marathi-speaking areas, then maybe they got what they deserved at the hands of Balasaheb.

The important word is "if" . Memories/Opinions of one person should not be sufficient for us to assume that South Indians were really doing what they have been accused of.
Same with the Biharis and UP people -- they have no business descending on Mumbai by the millions and taking away jobs of Maratha manoos.
Jobs of Maratha Manoos? Who said those (or any) job belongs to Marathi manoos? You? :roll:
What will you do if your nieghbours descended on your house and took over your kitchen, arguing that they don't have enough to eat at their own homes so what they are doing is fair and you have to be liberal-minded.
One small problem. The food in my kitchen is my private property. Jobs in any region are not anyone's baap ka maal. Is that clear? I rarely hear such arguments from smart people.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

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shiv wrote:
Muppalla wrote: In true terms, those who has chosen the path of right-wingism should not look for wah-wahs. They will never come. Though Modi is not in the league of BT, even if he makes every inch of Gujarat a golden pathway, he will never be inclusive and he will always be buried in Godhra. The legacy is written by the world's psychological establishment.
No. Modi and his team are greats in terms of media management. Like Clinton. Everyone will have detractors, but turning them around and making roars turn into squeaks is a hallmark of greatness. Modi has pushed inclusivism while staying at the helm without appearing weak or remorseful. I think it is unfair to Modi to bring up the comparison with Thackray. Thackray took the easy way out by never actually entering government. He was forever man throwing things at government, never in government to take the flak and risk losing.
Shiv ji, you differentiated it because we decipher deeper on BRF. For the media and the world's establishment both are same. If you see any news paper worldwide both are Hindu right wing leaders. I am not trying to see India through the world's lenses but Indian analysts in India always gets their biases and drifts through the world's lenses. That is the fact we live in.

Note that I do not rate BT any bigger than Modi or any other nationalistic hindutva leader. He is definitely a regional Marathi leader but such leader has a value at the national level until the day nation governance is truely democratic and nationalistic. Hence he is a national asset and not just a Marathi asset.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by shiv »

abhijitm wrote:Shiv, when in power it was his government and everyone knew he the one was controlling it. He too took the flak continuously throughout his life and beyond.
Abhijit there are a lot of comparisons that can be drawn about people who control government from behind and escape responsibility. All I am demanding is honesty in appraising Thackray. I can see how he did good things for Mumbai and some Maharashtrians. But trying to cover up mistakes is wrong. He was human. He made errors. His supporters need to ask others to pardon him for his errors and look at his achievements. Covering up or wishing away his errors is the most ham fisted way of handling his legacy. Saying rah rah rah South Indians and North Indian deserved what they got and Muslims got butt kicked by this mighty Bhim of a Hindu warrior is a mistake.
Last edited by shiv on 19 Nov 2012 09:41, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhijitm »

abhishek_sharma wrote:The food in my kitchen is my private property. Jobs in any region are not anyone's baap ka maal. Is that clear?
Abhishek, exactly! what if it becomes someone's 'baap ka maal'? What do you do?
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Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by shiv »

abhijitm wrote:
shiv wrote:But do not tell me Thackray was some kind of national level leader. He was not capable of more than what he did. He is gone now and will be remembered only for what he did and not for anything more or less.
You keep saying that. What do you mean by 'National Leader'? What is your hypothesis?
In this case a person for whom people outside Maharashtra shed tears and remember fondly. Maybe Thackray himself did not want that and worked only for Maharashtrians. Fair enough. But asking non Maharashtrians to respect his legacy as great would be wishful thinking.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by disha »

I am just sick of the eulogies raised for BT.

He was a rabble rouser who gained prominence and that's it. Getting attention for his rabble rousing ways made it more fun for him and if that attributed more power to his future rabble rousing abilities, more the fun. He did not care a whit if ordinary humans died, as long his pranks get him more attention and in the process he used events in his way to get more attention. Yes, in the process if he needed to do the task of cleaning up the night soil, he did that.

For example, when anti-hindi and telangana agitation was sweeping TN/AP in the '60s., he brought up anti-south agitation in mumbai. In secular mumbai, somebody had to prove the point that we are all in it together by taking a stick and beating the unarmed and innocent "kallu" or "madrasi" (and particularly unarmed and innocent) to show how weak their underbelly is.

Regarding all the talk about how "hindus" of various shades are thankfull to him for stopping a "green takeover" of mumbai, it is non-sense. Mumbai is a place which proves that when all money-making activities legal or illegal are concerned, everybody including the local rowdy on the street is secular.

For all the talk of "marathi-manoos", and its ownership stake in mumbai., it is interesting to see that the BR members indulging in that neither know history (or do not want to know) and definitely behind the curve. Ack-thoo.

The cultural capital of marathas was never mumbai. Cultural of marathi manoos is more exemplified either by the konkan belt (raigad/ratnagiri) or pune/kolhapur/solarpur or nashik/ahmednagar or aurangabad/jalna or amravati/nagpur.

British made mumbai with the help of parsis, bohras and gujjus and sustained by Indians of all shades., and would have remained a backwater if the EIC had not won its wars! So where does this sudden fetish for "mumbai for marathi manoos" comes into play? Just because it was made a capital for Maharashtra (big mistake - either Pune or Nashik or Nagpur should have been made)?

So BT is nothing but another mafiosi who ended up gaining power and as kavi vemana said

kulamulEnivaadu kalimichE velayunu
kalimi lEnivaadu kulamu dhigunu
kulamukanna Bhuvini galimiyekuuvasumI
vishvadhaaBhiraama vinuravEma.

For all the people singing his hagiographies, do not worry, there will be more rabble rousers like BT waiting in line to become one and BT himself will reborn and answer his karmas.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhijitm »

No Shiv, I am not trying to cover up his mistakes. He was imperfect like all other leaders. This thread is just an opportunity to highlight some of the things which he did right, along with his mistakes.
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Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by disha »

varunkumar wrote:You are strangely quiet on the oppression of Maratha people in their own homeland by South Indians in the decades after independence
Varunkumar you need to disabuse yourself of the notion that Mumbai was the homeland of the maratha people. It was not. Take it back to the days before english made it bombay and no maratha manoos would want to migrate to it.

Mumbai is the homeland of Indians and BT used the maratha manoos ruse to get to the treasure pot that is mumbai. It is all about money.

Now disabusing others of their perceived grievances ...
In most of the government offices, somehow there were forces which did not allow a marathi person to raise up beyond class-2 level. If anyone was at all promoted, there used to be countless inquiries, transfers and other roadblocks. As far as I understand history, this has been happening ever since MKG's assassination. There were lobbies of South Indians (My father's words) which somehow brought their person from TN to do the job in MH, but refused to promote a Marathi person for the same job.


Happens everywhere, and is not targetted specific to "maratha manoos". The same grievance led to separation of AP from Madras and is now abused by Telangana. The political and administrative capital should have been Pune but that would have played into the hands of the congressi "fascists" by the congressi "liberals"., and mumbai is where the money is.
If South Indians were really doing this to Marathas in Mumbai and other Marathi-speaking areas, then maybe they got what they deserved at the hands of Balasaheb. You are deliberately focussing on the push-back of the Marathas but not on what caused them to behave like that. Maybe being a south Indian is clouding your judgement. Same with the Biharis and UP people -- they have no business descending on Mumbai by the millions and taking away jobs of Maratha manoos. There is going to be a push back.
Narrow, parochial and bordering on racism. So it is just cause to beat up somebody because their forefather "might" have blocked your neighbour's distant cousin's forefather's promotion. Can you make it better? Give a reason on why a bihari or UP have no right to come to mumbai in millions (and taking away jobs of maratha manoos who were not interested in doing the job in the first place?)
What will you do if your nieghbours descended on your house and took over your kitchen, arguing that they don't have enough to eat at their own homes so what they are doing is fair and you have to be liberal-minded even if your own children don't get to eat. Cosmopolitanism is fine, but it doesn't mean allowing your demography to be changed to your disadvantage by a flood of economic refugees who will jeopradise the economic security of your kids.
Manufacturing personal grievance., nobody stopped the hypothetical "maratha-manoos" to leave the hinterland of pune/aurangabad/ahmednagar etc in millions to land in mumbai and take away the jobs from the biharis etc and causing a reverse demographic change.

BT sold a lump of night soil called "mumbai for marathi-manoos" and you guys are lapping it up while his goons and progenies are laughing all the way to the bank stealing the very property of mumbai right from the "marathi-manoos" (and parsis, gujjus, bohras, biharis, jats, Indians).
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by disha »

abhijitm wrote:No Shiv, I am not trying to cover up his mistakes. He was imperfect like all other leaders. This thread is just an opportunity to highlight some of the things which he did right, along with his mistakes.
Yep, I also want to learn what he did "right"., so that someday when I cast away my empathy, ethos, morality _ I can laugh all the way to the bank with the spoils.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by shiv »

abhijitm wrote:No Shiv, I am not trying to cover up his mistakes. He was imperfect like all other leaders. This thread is just an opportunity to highlight some of the things which he did right, along with his mistakes.
Of course. I am not blaming you.

From a strictly sociological viewpoint I would see every small time Muslim criminal who committed crime and then took refuge behind minority religion status as minor "leader in violence and fear" whose vote bank and street power is the local ummah. India secular politics encouraged and allowed this to survive. Nowadays we hear of girls who unfairly scare husband's families by threatening to slap a dowry harassment case on them. It does happen. In India fear of upsetting Muslims allowed some degree of criminal behavior to be left untouched as long as a communal harassment case could be slapped on objectors. Only street power could topple this. Thackray understood street power. He used it to build up his constituency keeping the threat of violence, disruption and fear against any opponents.

Maybe that was the only solution for the mess Mumbai had become (and probably still is), but in the long term this cannot be the ideal. Huge cities are like small countries and need to be handled well. Karachi is an example of a city that no one can handle without destroying it. Mumbai probably needs to deconstruct itself and bring itself down several notches if it is to improve. But Bal Thackrays are only band aids.
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Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by KLNMurthy »

shiv wrote: ...

Oh I am sure they got what they deserved. No doubt about that. But that only shows up Bal Thackray as an opportunist who went for the flavor of the day. Not a great leader. The South Indians were bad so they got their deserving asses kicked. the North Indians were bad so they got their sorry behinds handed to them. Muslims are bad and Thackray sorted them out. Every time Thackray got stronger. In Mumbai. In his cosy fiefdom. I accept all this.

But do not tell me Thackray was some kind of national level leader. He was not capable of more than what he did. He is gone now and will be remembered only for what he did and not for anything more or less.
The tension between locals (who may be sometimes underdeveloped in terms of skills or may not be able to muster the capital for development) and "outsiders" is a persistent theme in urban, wealth-generating India, and deserves a serious conversation and some kind of accommodation on all sides. Everything gets complicated because Indians are a clannish people, and will push for the advancement of "our guy" over "not our guy" without necessarily having any malice for "the other guy." But more often than not, there is also a kind of low-grade malice as well. It is not that the "outsiders" deserved the violence and thrashing, but in my experience it is not uncommon for "outsiders" to have some kind of contempt for the local guys, as being lazy, or "talking funny" or whatever. I have certainly seen this from an "outsider" pov in Telangana.

To resolve this truly needs a high level of vision and executive skill and the ability to bring people to a win-win solution after an earnest and truthful conversation. But the norm in India is that this conversation is conducted in terms of aggressor and victim, or colonizer and resister. Proper engagement with the problem goes missing when this aggressor-victim language enters the scene.

It is a recurring theme, whether it is Tamils in Bangalore, Andhraites in Hyderabad, South Indians (now North Indians) in Bombay (now Mumbai). Thackeray was remarkable as a story of an ordinary person who accomplished extraordinary things, but of course he had no vision for how to resolve the conflicts and contradictions of locals-outsiders and set up a stable, sustainable and law-abiding political system in Mumbai.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 19 Nov 2012 10:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by abhijitm »

shiv wrote:In this case a person for whom people outside Maharashtra shed tears and remember fondly. Maybe Thackray himself did not want that and worked only for Maharashtrians. Fair enough. But asking non Maharashtrians to respect his legacy as great would be wishful thinking.
mmmm I don't know how do I put this in words. I am not as good as you in semantics but let me try :)

Days of ONE ruling ALL is gone. If we are in search for such national level leaders then we must be prepared for a long void, perhaps forever? A person can be hated and still be a 'national level leader'. Almost all regional leaders today are worshiped there but hated by some or other at the national level. But they collectively do influence national politics. In these days I think the term 'regional leader' is too modest and the term 'national leader' is too swelled. We need to find another term to address today's leaders...'regio-national leader' may be?
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by disha »

Muppalla wrote:Though Modi is not in the league of BT, even if he makes every inch of Gujarat a golden pathway, he will never be inclusive ....
Regarding inclusitivity of Modi, try telling that he is non-inclusive to the khojas, bohras, ismailis, shias and particularly the muslims and the tribals of south gujarat. You should know more about the KHAM vote bank in Gujarat and how it got broken.

Actually, BT is not in the same league as Modi. BT hid behind the skirts.
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Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by disha »

abhijitm wrote:Days of ONE ruling ALL is gone. If we are in search for such national level leaders then we must be prepared for a long void, perhaps forever? A person can be hated and still be a 'national level leader'. Almost all regional leaders today are worshiped there but hated by some or other at the national level. But they collectively do influence national politics. In these days I think the term 'regional leader' is too modest and the term 'national leader' is too swelled. We need to find another term to address today's leaders...'regio-national leader' may be?
I am sure the same was said before, after and currently for M K Gandhi, Nehru, Shastri, Indira, Rajiv, P V Narsimha Rao and Vajpayee. Hmmm., what differentiated them (good or bad) from other national level leaders of the same era?

The more I read about BT, the more I realise he was a mafia don of mumbai, not the worst kind - but one nonetheless. At this stage, I want to start a thread euligising the Chaddha brothers.
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Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by shiv »

abhijitm wrote:
shiv wrote:In this case a person for whom people outside Maharashtra shed tears and remember fondly. Maybe Thackray himself did not want that and worked only for Maharashtrians. Fair enough. But asking non Maharashtrians to respect his legacy as great would be wishful thinking.
mmmm I don't know how do I put this in words. I am not as good as you in semantics but let me try :)

Days of ONE ruling ALL is gone. If we are in search for such national level leaders then we must be prepared for a long void, perhaps forever? A person can be hated and still be a 'national level leader'. Almost all regional leaders today are worshiped there but hated by some or other at the national level. But they collectively do influence national politics. In these days I think the term 'regional leader' is too modest and the term 'national leader' is too swelled. We need to find another term to address today's leaders...'regio-national leader' may be?
Abhijit, is it surprising that Bollywood and sport produce national stars? Politics produces national stars less often. Bal Thackray did not make the national team. He excelled at state level. My only objection is to the first post of this thread that hails him as a great son of India. Son of India, yes. Greatness is debatable. In my view he never had what it takes to be called a great son of India unless we lower our standards a good deal.
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Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by disha »

KLNMurthy wrote:It is a recurring theme, whether it is Tamils in Bangalore, Andhraites in Hyderabad, South Indians (now North Indians) in Bombay (now Mumbai). Thackeray was remarkable as a story of an ordinary person who accomplished extraordinary things, but of course he had no vision for how to resolve the conflicts and contradictions of locals-outsiders and set up a stable, sustainable and law-abiding political system in Mumbai.
Funny, the bolded part is a recurring theme outside of India as well, in the big US of A or Oirope or Japan or Asstralia ... the scene changes, the color of the hair and skin changes - but the theme remains the same.

For BT to reach at an extraordinary position and then not have a unifying vision itself indicates that he was a failure and the position reached was by fluke or manipulating perceived grievances at the right time.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhijitm »

shiv wrote:Maybe that was the only solution for the mess Mumbai had become (and probably still is), but in the long term this cannot be the ideal. Huge cities are like small countries and need to be handled well. Karachi is an example of a city that no one can handle without destroying it. Mumbai probably needs to deconstruct itself and bring itself down several notches if it is to improve. But Bal Thackrays are only band aids.
How true. Every leader, no matter how small or great he is, has its days. The cause cannot be and will not be remained forever. There are some signs of SS and its ideology changing with the time and new generations. Lets see what happens.
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Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by disha »

^^^ Shivji, a nit pick. BT/SS excelled at multi-district level.

SS was never able to form a government on its own. Not in 1995 and never afterwards. This is a case of more sound than substance. Such a caricature is needed by others to cause polarisation for their own gains.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

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IB4TL - going to get a life.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Hari Seldon »

disha wrote:IB4TL - going to get a life.
Bye. Yawn. Carry on biraders...
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Mort Walker »

Now that Bal Thackeray has passed, there will soon be a movement afoot for the formation of Vidharba state with the capital of Nagpur.
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Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by KLNMurthy »

disha wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:It is a recurring theme, whether it is Tamils in Bangalore, Andhraites in Hyderabad, South Indians (now North Indians) in Bombay (now Mumbai). Thackeray was remarkable as a story of an ordinary person who accomplished extraordinary things, but of course he had no vision for how to resolve the conflicts and contradictions of locals-outsiders and set up a stable, sustainable and law-abiding political system in Mumbai.
Funny, the bolded part is a recurring theme outside of India as well, in the big US of A or Oirope or Japan or Asstralia ... the scene changes, the color of the hair and skin changes - but the theme remains the same.

For BT to reach at an extraordinary position and then not have a unifying vision itself indicates that he was a failure and the position reached was by fluke or manipulating perceived grievances at the right time.
He would have been a "failure" if he had aspired to be a national visionary leader and then missed the mark. There is no indication that he had such aspirations.

True the local vs outsider theme is there in some form or other worldwide; but if we want to build India we need to find a way to deal with it constructively in our own domain. Perhaps this is BT's more useful contribution--to provoke a conversation about how we can balance these two competing kinds of interests without paying an undue cost.
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Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by abhijitm »

KLNMurthy wrote:True the local vs outsider theme is there in some form or other worldwide; but if we want to build India we need to find a way to deal with it constructively in our own domain. Perhaps this is BT's more useful contribution--to provoke a conversation about how we can balance these two competing kinds of interests without paying an undue cost.
True.
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Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by archan »

varunkumar wrote:Same with the Biharis and UP people -- they have no business descending on Mumbai by the millions and taking away jobs of Maratha manoos. There is going to be a push back.
So you want to stop Indians from moving around freely in India and taking up jobs? I suppose you don't believe in the Constitution of India then? do you want them to apply for a work visa first, sir?
Such divisive comments are unwelcome on this forum. A first warning has been issued, and if you still don't get it, you won't be here for long.
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