RIP Bal Thackeray

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3679
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhijitm »

Agree. Hence the rise of Bangalore, Hyderabad, Ahmadabad and Delhi has helped the country and indirectly Mumbai to some extend.
Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4152
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Atri »

There, I corrected the post..
shiv wrote: Thanks for this explanation and I can see why I have had such a different view of Bal Thackray.

He was a Mumbai "Marathi" leader and primarily looked after the interests of Hindus and Maharashtrians of Mumbai urban Maharashtra. He was never a leader of national caliber - He was leader of international caliber. There is a Shivsena in Nepal established by BT which fights for exactly same issues as SS fought for in Mumbai - Hindu Identity of Nepalese speaking people against maoists.
shiv wrote:Pimpri Chinchwad is now taking up some of Mumbai's slack. It is now India's wealthiest corporation. A big change from my boyhood that was spent there,
It is personal fiefdom of Ajit Pawar.. Hence the "riches"..

Agree, Mumbai has to be "decongested" by whatever means possible.. But the port city is difficult to replace..
abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3679
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhijitm »

Since we are remembering. One of the significant event that strengthen SS was 1982 mill strike across Mumbai. SS opposed the strike. Eventually thousands of jobs were lost and the large portion of blue-collar marathi worker who used to support Datta Samant started following Shiv Sena.
svenkat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4727
Joined: 19 May 2009 17:23

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by svenkat »

Atri,
One of the criticisms against SS is that it has changed the cosmopolitanism of Bombay atleast in its civic affairs.This is made by even corporate big wigs and that this has decreased its efficiency.We see the same criticism in Nukkad against Bengaluru.Chennai will not even allow that criticism to be made though there has been a change for the better.This means reduced participation(by force) for some in affairs concerning them.

While recogonising human fraility,I think we all want an India with greatest mobility,minimum discrimination and minimum hidden barriers with the greatest respect for her sub-cultures.Its a very tall order indeed.

It is very much possible that lesser men can patronise a parochial,dictatorial style of governance at odds with our vision and hopes.These impossible contradictions we seek to balance for a better rashtra.

Your thoughts on these issues.Particularly because as abhijitm naively conceded that in the post-symantaka mani Kali yuga,extortion by state is considered dharma and this is a situation frankly having no precedent in dharma shashtras which did not anticipate democracies or huge wealth in the hands of non-rulers(financiers,corporate bigshots,bankers,industrial magnates,international traders ,media moghuls,etc).

This is particularly a problem in non-aryavartha where the vaishyas and rulers speak different languages and may belong to different varnas.Even in the heart of Aryavartha,Chandrashekhar,VP Singh,Arjun Singh have had an uneasy relationship with business vaishyas.And Amar Singh was honest enough to seek alliance with Mulayam accepting political realities of the day.OTOH Karan Singh,DigVijay Singh,Virabhadra Singh,the suave Dinesh Singh(former Foreign Minister),Scindhia have chosen to go with the broad based Congress.

As you rightly observed Sharad Pawar comes from this Kolhapur Maharaja school which excites ldev.Balasaheb seemed to me to be a prisoner of a dogma he wanted to escape but at the same time he did not want his followers to be left to the tender mercies of market or the idealistic protestations of pan-indian nationalists for he had apprehensions whether maharashtrians would be able to face up to the competitions from 'hungrier' compatriots whose urgency/need was greater and also because MH had not made any special demands on Centre given that it would be against his maratha pride and also he was fundamentally against making special claims.He felt that the original demands were only protection/redressal for maharashtrians who were orphans in Indias commercial capital,though they were the natives of the city.

More or less,this is the similar situatin in Bengaluru,prompting venerable Shivji to come up with bizarre suggestions like reclaiming Mumbai,Bengaluru etc.We would like Kanpur,Lucknow,Chennai,Bhubaneshwar,Jaipur,Chandigarh,Visakhpatnam,Hyderabad,Guwhati,Bhopal,Gwalior to become better livable,cosmopolitan than Bombay and Bengaluru to be 'reclaimed'.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by RamaY »

shiv wrote: In a way Bal Thackray was a partial political answer to the anarchy that Mumbai was and probably still is. Even today money talks louder in Mumbai than Hindutva or regionalism. It would be interesting to see if Mumbai can ever be regained by Hindu Maharashtrians. I suspect that it will be good both for Mumbai and Maharashtrians if that happens but it will come at a price. Money will flee Mumbai and settle somewhere else
BT was a required partial political answer because the constitution and the state utterly failed in its vision, mission and action with regards to majority interests and India's value proposition to the humanity.

BT was not a national leader because he was trying to hold fort in Maha/Mumbai, same as the way NM is trying to clean up home for the past 10 years before he could convince the dhimmi's elsewhere that there is a better alternative to Christian-secularist die-nasty politics. The very dhimmitude that made people see corruption/goondagiri only in yedyurappa but not in other k'taka parties or administrations.

Money talks louder in Mumbai or in India because people do not understand the simple fact that India is wealthy all the time be it the hindu/buddhist Bharat which attracted the Islamic invasions, the Islam controlled Hindustan which attracted Europian Christian colonizers, and even after independence.

What people do not understand is that secularism is not bringing some djinn wealth from outside but it the very wealth that is generated by the majority community.

True that self-awareness and national uprising does come at some price, especially the price the nation will have to pay in terms of destruction of asuric forces/ideologies and dhimmitude. No wonder the dhimmis are unwilling to pay the price and hence all the punditry and slandering.
abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3679
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhijitm »

svenkat, just for the clarification, when I said king gets his share, I meant through taxes and not extortion.

Thanks.
ranjbe
BRFite
Posts: 271
Joined: 12 Apr 2011 21:25

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by ranjbe »

To give people perspective, Mumbai was continuously ruled by the Portugese and then the British for 400 years. Compare this with the rest of Maharashtra (except Marathwada), which was under Hindu rule (Yadava, and Maratha) for around 500 of the years between 1000 AD and 2000 AD. The Bahami Muslim kingdoms ruled for around 350 years between Yadava and Maratha rulers, and the British followed for around 140 years (3rd Anglo-Maratha war to independence). Interestingly, Navi Mumbai, Thane etc. were under Maratha rule before the British - the Marathas threw out the Portugese under Peshwa rule.
The result was that the Gujarati and Parsi merchants were much favored by the British, and the Marathas were hated - read the "Sea Eagle", biography of Maratha Admiral Kanhoji Angre. The richest Marathi merchant during the eighteenth century, a Kamath, who owned much of what is now the Fort area, was accused by the British of being a Maratha spy and executed and his properties seized. The High Court, Rajabhai Tower and other landmarks stand on what were Kamath estates.
This anti-Marathi feeling continued for a few decades after independence amongst non-Marathi Mumbaites. I can personally attest to this fact - I went to an elite Jesuit school in the Fort area during the 1950's, where we had about 3-4 Marathis in a class of 40. We were from well-off families but were still contempuously called Ghatis.
I may have mixed feelings about BT, but I give him full credit that a Maharashtrian is no longer derided in the capital of Maharashtra state.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by fanne »

Salute to you sir. A lion would only know the true worth of another. Please do come back in Bharatvarsh, in a country full of enounches, we need some men.
BalaSaheb amar rahe!!!
rgds,
Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4152
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Atri »

svenkat wrote:Atri,
One of the criticisms against SS is that it has changed the cosmopolitanism of Bombay atleast in its civic affairs.This is made by even corporate big wigs and that this has decreased its efficiency.We see the same criticism in Nukkad against Bengaluru.Chennai will not even allow that criticism to be made though there has been a change for the better.This means reduced participation(by force) for some in affairs concerning them.

While recogonising human fraility,I think we all want an India with greatest mobility,minimum discrimination and minimum hidden barriers with the greatest respect for her sub-cultures.Its a very tall order indeed.

It is very much possible that lesser men can patronise a parochial,dictatorial style of governance at odds with our vision and hopes.These impossible contradictions we seek to balance for a better rashtra.

Your thoughts on these issues.Particularly because as abhijitm naively conceded that in the post-symantaka mani Kali yuga,extortion by state is considered dharma and this is a situation frankly having no precedent in dharma shashtras which did not anticipate democracies or huge wealth in the hands of non-rulers(financiers,corporate bigshots,bankers,industrial magnates,international traders ,media moghuls,etc)
Svenkat ji,

Regarding Mumbai, these are my thoughts. Please understand why I do not wish to elaborate upon this idea on open forum. I have said, as much as wanted to say in this post since the effects which I envision are too hideous to contemplate, yet something I feel are inevitable necessity. please follow the brief discussion on this link. Few posts preceding and succeeding this post, reading between lines you would get what I think about how things "should be" - http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1334992

Regarding other points,

I do not understand the word cosmopolitan. If it means that section of society which is like RAPE, well that section always remained untouched, in spite of all happenings. But, let me tell you one anecdote that my father told me. In most of the government offices, somehow there were forces which did not allow a marathi person to raise up beyond class-2 level. If anyone was at all promoted, there used to be countless inquiries, transfers and other roadblocks. As far as I understand history, this has been happening ever since MKG's assassination. There were lobbies of South Indians (My father's words) which somehow brought their person from TN to do the job in MH, but refused to promote a Marathi person for the same job. ldev was right to certain extent that in a way that the upward mobility of OBC, BC and to some minor extent brahmins happened only because of BT and SS.

The sugar cooperatives and associated enterprises were in hand of 96-clan Marathas which preferred their men. The code name was "Chhatrapati", when asked for employment, many people in the region which ldev ji hinted asked whether the person who is being recommended is "chhatrapati" or not. OBC mobilization is the biggest achievement of BT and he did it without alluding to caste sentiments. He could have spoken about caste, but that would have taken MH on coastal Andhra and Rayalseema path. Why do you think Reddis embraced EJs? Perceived loss of power to awakening OBC. It would have spelt doom to KG basin, if some elite maratha leaders too would have thought similarly. The credit goes to both BT and Sharad Pawar, for not making 96-clanners walk that path.

SS gave marathi man, both white collared and blue collared, his own trade union. Marathi people started appearing on class-1 level officers of government officers in late 70s and 80s. As Abhijitm ji has cited the example of 1982 bandhs, it was clearly work of some antinational force to decimate Mumbai's economic standing. Something was coaxing the trade union leaders to make irrational demands which no owner would agree to. BT and his Kamgar sena (trade union of SS) opposed these communist trade unions. As a result of this bandh, thousands of workers who were mostly marathi, lost jobs. SS was successful to some extent, in getting their dues back.

If you look at the sections of society which answered to the call of RJB movement, you will see it was predominantly OBC movement. They had to dig up mandal, to obfuscate this movement. Our system is designed to thwart those who have history of challenging and subverting the Dillipati. All those who collaborated with British are favorably placed in the priority list. If not collaborated, those who did not pose OR have tradition of posing threat to establishment. It is not the case now, at least not overtly post 1998. I do not think those south indian lobbies against whom SS was shouting were doing this under this design, No.. They were simply doing what the system expected them to do. This is merely my attempt at explaining why system expected this. SS was partial answer to this distortion.

Regarding extortion, if we talk how it "should be" then it is illegal for the state to tax more than 15%. State is committing serious crime when it taxes more than 15% in peacetime. Even if we think that India is at war (which it is, BTW), the total tax (direct and indirect) should not be higher than 25%. But since the vyavastha is so distorted and tilted in favor of those who poise themselves to live off the indic interests, such aberrations are bound to arise. Some of these aberrations work against Indic interests, while few do not.. SS was largely amongst latter aberrations. The establishment encourages breaking law and evading taxes, precisely because the law is so difficult to understand and biased. It is also in their favor (ruling party who designed the system) because this is how they generate the funds to support their extra constitutional thinktanks and executors and to manipulate those who are vulnerable within the system (like CBI and judiciary, for eg).
Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3512
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Rony »

How much truth is there in this article by Kumar Ketkar ?

A mystery inside an enigma
Balasaheb was a mystery even to his son Uddhav and nephew Raj. For the Shiv Sena, he was a riddle wrapped in mystery. Without getting hyperbolic, one can say Winston Churchill’s words on Russia hold true for Balasaheb Thackeray: “A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma”.

He was so mercurial that even his closest political ally could not predict what position he would take on any issue. His unpredictability often confounded the media. The English electronic media was in awe of him, not because of his mission or message, but because he could provide interesting one liners and concurrent visual.

He had an uncanny sense of creating controversy. Indeed, he thrived on controversies. For that, he would not mind contradicting himself. And that added to the drama.

After going to town that he would not let the India-Pakistan cricket matches held, he had the gumption to invite Pakistani cricketer Javed Miandad for dinner. That was a visual treat for television channels. When asked how could he oppose India-Pakistan cricket matches and yet invite the Pakistani star for dinner, he said that he wanted Indian cricketers to learn from Miandad what grit means and how to fight back in the most difficult situation. He said that Indians develop cold feet while the Pakistanis retaliate and display a “killer instinct”. He would, then, drill this point politically by saying that the Hindus should develop the “killer instinct” like them. It was a smart and yet vicious comment.

Although the Shiv Sena was in alliance with the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) at the national level, he never burdened himself with the responsibilities of such alliance. He used to be on his own. When actor Sanjay Dutt was under attack from the BJP for his alleged role in the 1992-93 riot, Balasaheb suddenly declared in a Shivaji Park meeting that Dutt was innocent. That statement came like a bolt from blue, because Shiv Sena’s own mouthpiece, Saamna, had run a campaign against Dutt’s presumed nefarious activities. Not only the BJP, but even the Shiv Sena was shocked.

Similarly, when the BJP was putting forward Lal Krishna Advani's name for prime ministership for the 2009 elections, Balasaheb said if Sharad Pawar would be the candidate, he would support him because a Marathi person should become the prime minister. He took the same position while supporting Pratibha Patil's candidature for the President’s post.

But, then, Pranab Mukherjee was not a Marathi and yet Balasaheb declared support to him, embarrassing the BJP. At least half a dozen times, the BJP had threatened to break the alliance with the Shiv Sena because of this irreverent style of Balasaheb, but the SS chief would respond nonchalantly, saying “Do what you want!"

Indeed, even the Hindutva of Balasaheb was different from the Hindutva of the Sangh Parivar. The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) could never really get along with Balasaheb and the Shiv Sena supremo quite often made fun of the “knickerwallas". Bal Thackeray, as he used to be called almost till late 1980s, could not be disciplined into any straitjacket.

Born in a perfect middle class family in central Mumbai, Thackeray never had any specific political belief. He enjoyed pranks and, therefore, the art of cartooning came naturally to him. He drew those caricatures with no holds barred style, making fun of anyone — Gandhiji, Nehru, Jayprakash, and even Vajpayee.

He had no encumbrances. That was a problem for his allies, but fun for him. It was always difficult to psychoanalyse him. He was enamoured of Bollywood and cricket stars. Many a times, he would spend time with celebrities rather than his own party leaders. In fact, he hardly ever held meetings with them to discuss party strategies, electoral plans or political campaigns.

He had no interest in long-term goals. Nor did he aspire to be the chief minister, central minister or any such entity. Although he was vociferous about Maharashtra and Marathi Manoos, he was not even fully familiar with the state's geography or important features of various regions. He had neither the understanding nor interest in agricultural issues and rural problems. He was an urban person and had a certain disdain for the peasant life.

That is why, although he was believed to be the uncrowned supremo of Maharashtra, he could hardly spread Shiv Sena’s reach in Marathwada, Vidarbha or Western Maharashtra. He had no notion of the huge sugar industry, which was a core of the rural economy of the state. The vast rural banking network, which was controlled by the Congress or the Nationalist Congress Party (NCP), was beyond his comprehension. The debates of cotton or sugarcane pricing, farmers' suicides, famines, irrigation and issues related to biotechnology would bore him. When asked about his vision for Maharashtra, he would give irrelevant answers such as having a convenient Konkan railway, making Marathi compulsory on shop signboards or developing Marathi pride.

He never really defined Marathi identity or what he meant by it. He never had any scheme to promote the Marathi business and industry. He never set up any institution to promote Marathi culture and arts. He never promoted or encouraged research in Marathi history. Indeed, his knowledge of history was limited to the short biography of Shivaji Maharaj.

The history prior to Shivaji Maharaj and the period after the British came did not interest him. In fact, discussion on any complex topic, a problem with multiple dimensions, an issue requiring historical understanding would tire him. He wanted simple solutions to complex problems. He described himself as a missionary warrior for the cause of Marathi, but what it meant could never be deciphered by anyone. And yet, he became a symbol of Marathi pride, a Maharashtra icon, who survived nearly 20 chief ministers through 45 years.

He formed the party and remained at its helm for all those years, a feat not achieved by anyone in the country. But how he achieved it would remain a subject of socio-psychological analysis and, therefore, a mystery inside an enigma.
Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3512
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Rony »

Atri wrote: Earlier, Mumbai's underworld was split into Varadarajan Mudaliar faction and Haji Mastan faction which was later passed on to Dawood.
Atri garu,

Haji Mastan and Varadarajan were very close friends. There was no rivalry between them. Both of them were Tamils who made big in Mumbai underworld. When Varada died in Chennai of natural causes, Mastan chartered a Indian Airlines flight to bring his friend's body to Mumbai for Cremation as per his friend's wishes.

The rivalry was between Varadarajan and Karim Lala. Karim lala was a pushtun and it was his gang which splited into Pathan and Dawood Factions. Dawood Ibrahim through selective elimination and digestion of pathan faction, emerged as the leader of Karim Lala gang later on. And the elimination of Varadarajan's gang by police made Dawood as the unquestioned leader of Mumbai under world.
Last edited by Rony on 19 Nov 2012 04:32, edited 1 time in total.
Comer
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3574
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Comer »

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/bal- ... 29641.html
When Thackeray heard of the state government's recalcitrance, something seemed to snap inside him."They are destroying their mothers," he growled. "Such people are not fit to rule the country." I didn't know who 'they' was. I didn't ask. But his ire was directed at his state government. Thackeray called for his telephone and the chief minister to meet him. There was no question of the auction going through, Thackeray later told us. The state government would pay the R s. 6.5 crores for refitting the warship, he said.
Atri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4152
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Atri »

Rony ji, My bad.. I meant karim lala.. Sorry and thanks for correction..
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by shiv »

Atri wrote:There, I corrected the post..
shiv wrote: Thanks for this explanation and I can see why I have had such a different view of Bal Thackray.

He was a Mumbai "Marathi" leader and primarily looked after the interests of Hindus and Maharashtrians of Mumbai urban Maharashtra. He was never a leader of national caliber - He was leader of international caliber. There is a Shivsena in Nepal established by BT which fights for exactly same issues as SS fought for in Mumbai - Hindu Identity of Nepalese speaking people against maoists.
shiv wrote:Pimpri Chinchwad is now taking up some of Mumbai's slack. It is now India's wealthiest corporation. A big change from my boyhood that was spent there,
It is personal fiefdom of Ajit Pawar.. Hence the "riches"..
.
Well I always got the impression that Shiv Sena and Bal Thackray's clout was never as strong in the rest of Maharashtra as it was in Mumbai. Other cities including Pune had their own mafiosi and nexuses which Bal Thackray could not influence. Mayawati started her BSP in various places, and BSP candidates contested the last election from parts of Karnataka, but that really meant nothing. Bal Thackray was a Mumbai don.
ranjbe
BRFite
Posts: 271
Joined: 12 Apr 2011 21:25

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by ranjbe »

Rony wrote:How much truth is there in this article by Kumar Ketkar ?

A mystery inside an enigma
Balasaheb was a mystery even to his son Uddhav and nephew Raj. For the Shiv Sena, he was a riddle wrapped in mystery. Without getting hyperbolic, one can say Winston Churchill’s words on Russia hold true for Balasaheb Thackeray: “A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma”.

.
Balasaheb was a matriculate, and poorly read in history and understanding of complex issues. He is exceptional because in spite of all this, he had the guts and gumption to do what he did. The Marathi's of Mumbai admire him for this. Even the Maharashtrian RAIE's (Indian RAPE's) such as Shobha De or even Sardesai have expressed this admiration while otherwise criticizing him. The turnout at his funeral is a testimony of this admiration. Perhaps a more educated person would have been frightened by the huge odds stacked against him.
Maharashtrians outside Mumbai were rajahs, industrialists. intellectuals and agricultural barons. Unfortunately the Marathis of Mumbai were predominantly of the labor class. Vicious British propaganda against Marathas (mean, cowardly - read Kim for example) was blindly followed by the non-marathi Mumbaites even after independence. I salute BT for his guts in fighting these poweful forces, and after that fighting the secular forces while fighting against the Islamic threat.
Muppalla
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7113
Joined: 12 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Muppalla »

We may not agree with him but he is a great leader of India. As a matter of fact we don't agree 100% with anyone and that is the nature of Indians. He is a lion and hope a thousand such lions comeback to India.

I was in Mumbai starting from blasts to few years before I moved on. In a country where the governance is in collusion with the international terror sleeper cells, we need SS types. Their methods we may not like but the results matter and yes there will be few unfortunates in the colleteral damage. Building such a strong force needs various unpleasant methods.

The sleeper cells of Vikroli, Govandi, Jogeshwari are all back during the great governance of INC+NCP to end in stuff like 26/11. The governance has to take over the real needs of India and until then folks should stop complaining about Thakreys and Modis. Until then they will be no-nonsense speaking national leaders.
Last edited by Muppalla on 19 Nov 2012 05:58, edited 1 time in total.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by shiv »

Rony wrote:
The rivalry was between Varadarajan and Karim Lala. Karim lala was a pushtun and it was his gang which splited into Pathan and Dawood Factions. Dawood Ibrahim through selective elimination and digestion of pathan faction, emerged as the leader of Karim Lala gang later on. And the elimination of Varadarajan's gang by police made Dawood as the unquestioned leader of Mumbai under world.
It would be interesting to know to what extent the anti-South Indian sentiment whipped up in Maharashtra in the 60s in which Bal Thackray played a stellar role contributed to the cooperation of Muslim gangs with a Maharashtrian dominated police force to eliminate the Varadarjan gang - not that it did not need elimination.

I always got the impression that all politics and political bigwigs including Pawar, (and later Kalmadi). Antulay, (as well as their counterparts in other states) were only nanometers away from crime, associating with people who were either murderous like Dawood, or otherwise criminal like Telgi, or seemingly upright people who could buy off bigwigs like the Ambanis. Bollywood of course played a side role in this by allowing huge black money investments to be made and providing a means of employment, girls and romanticization of crime and coming up with good versus bad stories in a society that was neither black nor white, just grey.
Muppalla
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7113
Joined: 12 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Muppalla »

shiv wrote:It would be interesting to know to what extent the anti-South Indian sentiment whipped up in Maharashtra in the 60s in which Bal Thackray played a stellar role contributed to the cooperation of Muslim gangs with a Maharashtrian dominated police force to eliminate the Varadarjan gang - not that it did not need elimination.
Here is my 2 cents

I beleive this(SI) rift was a very short lived one as compared to the one with NIs. The anti-mullah stuff will never die in Maratha manoos. If someone observes the Maharashtra's konkan areas (Pune or Mumbai and extended region), about 80% of restarents(small to big) are owned by kannadigaas(Shettys etc.). The fight was about getting hafta to build the Shiv Sena party. It was a party of lower middle class Maharastrians who did not or could not get into enterprenural stuff. Anti south was anti-restaurent ownership or in summary a controlled-violent movement to make the other come for a deal. The deal was so sweet and most of the small to mid level restaurents just had a very detailed payment deal and in later times they are the cadre of the party too.

That was how the party's funding and also base increased.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by shiv »

Muppalla wrote:
The sleeper cells of Vikroli, Govandi, Jogeshwari are all back during the great governance of INC+NCP to end in stuff like 26/11. The governance has to take over the real needs of India and until then folks should stop complaining about Thakreys and Modis. Until then they will be no-nonsense speaking national leaders.
Unfortunately (for Mumbai and all other Indian cities I guess) the so called honest locals (the equivalent of Marathi manoos) are small fry. The highest they rise is in government positions where they join the black/bribe/government contracts economy. Others become small time contractors who make it big with government contracts for transport, road repairs, RTO, garbage etc. Government reservation for locals ensure that locals perform only low end jobs like bus drivers and sanitary men. A local politician cannot upset this or the high end wealthy who keep everyone in money. They can only play with the vote power and street power of the lowest and most vulnerable groups. Every Indian politician does that and Thackray was no different. He was sensitive to street level sentiment and used it for his political ends. Muslims and Hindus are vote banks and politicians can see that clearly. Thackray utiiized the "Marathi" vote bank against others initially and later the Hindu vote bank. But as per the norms of the Republic of India he (like any other politician) could not clean up the dirty mess that keeps the economy of Mumbai going.
ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5350
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by ShauryaT »

shiv wrote: I always got the impression that all politics and political bigwigs including Pawar, (and later Kalmadi). Antulay, (as well as their counterparts in other states) were only nanometers away from crime, associating with people who were either murderous like Dawood, or otherwise criminal like Telgi, or seemingly upright people who could buy off bigwigs like the Ambanis. Bollywood of course played a side role in this by allowing huge black money investments to be made and providing a means of employment, girls and romanticization of crime and coming up with good versus bad stories in a society that was neither black nor white, just grey.
It will be grossly unfair to compare BT to gangs, shootings and events of the early-mid 80's era of Karim Lala, Ibrahim, Dawood, Amizada, Chorta/Bad Rajan, Shetty, Kunju's all gangsters. BT was NOT in the same league. His claim to fame was NOT some illegal business and bumping people off.

BT was a politician first and foremost, who's ambition was power through the manipulation of people's emotions. He tapped into the latent anger of a segment of the masses and capitalized on it. The concern of these masses maybe a security issue or economic one or purely ethnic. He did not have a larger vision and the lack of it has shown in his governance, opposition and the various splits in his party including those of Bhujbal, Narayan Rane and his own nephew Raj. What he leaves behind is a dynastic succession, do we not have enough of these already and which amongst these have produced any lasting good. As a result, his legacy will be fairly weak and the net impact on Maharashtra and its political life would be marginal. From a national Hindutva ideological point of view, he has had no impact at all and would be forgotten.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by RamaY »

ShauryaT wrote:BT was a politician first and foremost, who's ambition was power through the manipulation of people's emotions. He tapped into the latent anger of a segment of the masses and capitalized on it. The concern of these masses maybe a security issue or economic one or purely ethnic. He did not have a larger vision and the lack of it has shown in his governance, opposition and the various splits in his party including those of Bhujbal, Narayan Rane and his own nephew Raj. What he leaves behind is a dynastic succession, do we not have enough of these already and which amongst these have produced any lasting good. As a result, his legacy will be fairly weak and the net impact on Maharashtra and its political life would be marginal. From a national Hindutva ideological point of view, he has had no impact at all and would be forgotten.
The citizens have a right to freedom from fear (security), poverty (economic progress) and external invasion/aggression (cultural security). When the Constitution and the Rashtra mechanism that is supposed to provide those to the citizens fails, their anger will make leaders like BT. He did not manipulate people's emotions. He got strength from peoples emotions because the constitutionally guaranteed and state financed structures and mechanisms failed in that basic responsibility.

When the constitution and state structures do their duty, BT like leaders need not appear to be divisive (divisive means there are two side - one that is hurting and the other retaliating). They would rather focus on laying the future roadmap for the nation.

For people who can see, BT does have a larger vision, that is security, progress and celebration of Hindustan. People who are ashamed of being Hindus will not be able to understand what this means. He tried to implement his vision in the areas he could influence. Like he said in one interview, Indian Army is capable of solving Pakistan problem for good. But the Dhimmis in Delhi doesn't allow it. Why? Because a strong, secure and progressive India will not be easy to manipulate and lead for lilliputs.

The theme of BT (or nationalist) detractors is that
1) The leader is divisive and manipulate peoples emotions for political gains
2) The leader did not represent the "real" interests of Hindus/Nation (without spelling what they are)
3) The leader is a failure that s/he doesn't have nation wide acceptance/following (they define it as needed)
4) The leader is a failure because he either did not have 2nd gen leaders or dynastic (It doesn't matter that this point goes against above 3 points)

We have been seeing this for a long time starting from Tilak to Bose to Patel to BT to NM and so on...

The tamas continues in this cyclical evolution.... Tamaso maa Jyotirgamaya!
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by shiv »

RamaY wrote: People who are ashamed of being Hindus will not be able to understand what this means.
:rotfl: That is the most hypocrtical statement I have heard in defence of a man who got his support from attacking other Indians from North and South India when it was convenient. The least you could atempt is say what he achieved honestly. Clearly Bal Thakray did things which benefited some people and they are grateful. Others suffered even though they were Hindus simply because they were not native to Maharashtra. Honesty demands that both sides should be mentioned rather than wearing a Hindu burqa as you have created.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by shiv »

ShauryaT wrote:
shiv wrote: I always got the impression that all politics and political bigwigs including Pawar, (and later Kalmadi). Antulay, (as well as their counterparts in other states) were only nanometers away from crime, associating with people who were either murderous like Dawood, or otherwise criminal like Telgi, or seemingly upright people who could buy off bigwigs like the Ambanis. Bollywood of course played a side role in this by allowing huge black money investments to be made and providing a means of employment, girls and romanticization of crime and coming up with good versus bad stories in a society that was neither black nor white, just grey.
It will be grossly unfair to compare BT to gangs, shootings and events of the early-mid 80's era of Karim Lala, Ibrahim, Dawood, Amizada, Chorta/Bad Rajan, Shetty, Kunju's all gangsters. BT was NOT in the same league. His claim to fame was NOT some illegal business and bumping people off.

.
Which is why his name is not on the list I typed. He manipulated the system without joining it like say Pawar. He modified it but could not destroy it. He just made his mark and went. He could not change the fact that Mumbai's wealth and clout in India needs both Marathi manoos and the others. If he tried to push locals up too far, Mumbai's economy took a hit, but if he did not do anything locals took the brunt. He could only fiddle with the relative power equations and find a place for himself, but left no apparent lasting legacy that has affected the whole country outside of Mumbai. It might still happen, but that depends on how skilfully his legacy is used by those who mourn him today. He has not left them with all positives. He built up negatives that will have to be torn down and I am not sure there is anyone big enough to do that. Let us see.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by RamaY »

shiv wrote:
RamaY wrote: People who are ashamed of being Hindus will not be able to understand what this means.
:rotfl: That is the most hypocrtical statement I have heard in defence of a man who got his support from attacking other Indians from North and South India when it was convenient. The least you could atempt is say what he achieved honestly. Clearly Bal Thakray did things which benefited some people and they are grateful. Others suffered even though they were Hindus simply because they were not native to Maharashtra. Honesty demands that both sides should be mentioned rather than wearing a Hindu burqa as you have created.

Biharis have Bihar, Andhras have AP, Karantaka people have KTaka etc.,

BT did not ask for what is not his.

Just because Mumbai/Maha is wealthy, it cannot support entire India directly (this is the key word here and this is what BT was fighting for). Maha contributes its share to federal taxes to support other Indians (not only Hindus) in an indirect manner, for which BT never objected. By saying Maharashtra is for Manoos; BT put the onus of taking care of Indians of other states on their respective state govts.

I don't have to mention the other side because you are already doing it.

Start thinking logically instead of living in some piscological nightmare.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by shiv »

RamaY wrote:Biharis have Bihar, Andhras have AP, Karantaka people have KTaka etc.,

BT did not ask for what is not his.

Just because Mumbai/Maha is wealthy, it cannot support entire India directly (this is the key word here and this is what BT was fighting for). Maha contributes its share to federal taxes to support other Indians (not only Hindus) in an indirect manner, for which BT never objected. By saying Maharashtra is for Manoos; BT put the onus of taking care of Indians of other states on their respective state govts.

I don't have to mention the other side because you are already doing it.

Start thinking logically instead of living in some piscological nightmare.
Thank you for your advice RamaY ji. It was not asked for just like North and South Indians in Mumbai did not ask for Mumbai the way Dawood did. But people still receive worthless and unsavoury stuff they do not want, while the people who give it think they are doling out pearls

You have stated exactly why Bal Thackray was relevant to Mumbai and not to the rest of India or to the world.
abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3679
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhijitm »

Shiv, the man was not perfect Io admit that. What BT did was to create enough repellent force to stop the interest of marathis getting overrun by the immigration. Marathi manoos is grateful for that. But he did not get carried away. Otherwise starting communal riots in Mumbai was a far easy job. But to the credit of BT, NI and SI leaders they did not try to milk the issue to the extend of costing national interest.

Same thing he did for Hindus in Mumbai. He succeeded in creating enough repelling force to stop muslim hooligan to overrun Hindus in various occassion. And hindu in mumbai is grateful for that. I have gujratis, mallus and north indian friends in mumbai who speak highly about him for this reason.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by shiv »

abhijitm wrote:Shiv, the man was not perfect Io admit that. What BT did was to create enough repellent force to stop the interest of marathis getting overrun by the immigration. Marathi manoos is grateful for that. But he did not get carried away. Otherwise starting communal riots in Mumbai was a far easy job. But to the credit of BT, NI and SI leaders they did not try to milk the issue to the extend of costing national interest.

Same thing he did for Hindus in Mumbai. He succeeded in creating enough repelling force to stop muslim hooligan to overrun Hindus in various occassion. And hindu in mumbai is grateful for that. I have gujratis, mallus and north indian friends in mumbai who speak highly about him for this reason.
I do not doubt this and I can now see why people from Mumbai are grateful to him and his legacy. But he can hardly be called a national leader. If he had not built up negatives in his karma by attacking weak migrants, his strength in fighting mullahs would be more admirable. Ironically both the negative and positive acts got him more power and popularity. His karma will have to repay this debt and there is no point in pushing him as an overarching positive force.
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhishek_sharma »

>> What BT did was to create enough repellent force to stop the interest of marathis getting overrun by the immigration.

When you start distinguishing between the interests of Marathis and "immigrants", it will be difficult for "immigrants" to care for the interests of Marathis.
Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Satya_anveshi »

Don't mix politics with Enron issue: Thackeray - July 11, 2001 - this article talks about BT's meeting with Ken Lay.

Further, some tidbits from basic internet search:

[*]Aug. 1995 - The Munde Committee issues a sharply critical report that recommends
scrapping the Dabhol project. The state government acts on this advice.


[*]Aug.-Dec.1995 - Enron enters arbitration and seeks $300 million in compensation. The state
government files suit in September to void the agreement, alleging fraud and
misrepresentation. U.S. officials, including Energy Secretary Hazel O’Leary,
warn India that its action will discourage foreign investment.

[*]Nov. 1995 - Rebecca Mark, Chairman of Enron International, meets with Bal Thackeray, the
top power in one of the ruling parties. Afterwards, negotiations resume between
Enron and the state.


[*]Jan. 1996 - The state announces it will accept a revised agreement.[/color]

----

The end result of the project is for everyone to see.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by RamaY »

shiv wrote: You have stated exactly why Bal Thackray was relevant to Mumbai and not to the rest of India or to the world.
That above post was to explain the rationale behind his Maharastra for Maharastrians movement. BT was one of the commanders of Hindu-rights. His battle ground was Maharashtra (which he rarely crossed).

Beyond Maha, his call of duty is in the realm of Hindu self-awareness and self-assertion.

>> He was one of the voices for Hindu self-respect in India, which is undermined by the secular (christianity without church) constitution, academia and media.
>> He set the tone on how to deal with snakes like Pakistan.

So you can easily understand:
At a personal level you take a bath, wear your cloths and eat your food. You don't eat food for your wife, don't take bath for her etc., Then at home level you care for your family needs - identity, security, finances, entertainment etc. You do not pay for your neighbor's bills, but you give them a sense of community etc. Beyond your immediate community, your contribution is limited to paying taxes and voting for your preferred political leader.


BT is a leader because he did the same thing at a much higher level. That is why we pay eulogy for people like BT, because they remind you what your rights are, inspire you to grow beyond you, and stand for your national identity.

When you cannot connect with the national identity of the other person, you cannot pay respect to them.

The philosophical question is how come the constitution, leadership, state sponsored education etc are not able to build the same national identity among all of us? That is topic for another discussion.
abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3679
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhijitm »

abhishek_sharma wrote:>> What BT did was to create enough repellent force to stop the interest of marathis getting overrun by the immigration.

When you start distinguishing between the interests of Marathis and "immigrants", it will be difficult for "immigrants" to care for the interests of Marathis.
I do not dispute this. If you go back to my post there I call for a win-win solution, not only in mumbai but everywhere else. I am simply stating the issue of 70s where there was a sense of discrimination within the marathi community.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by shiv »

RamaY wrote:
That above post was to explain the rationale behind his Maharastra for Maharastrians movement. BT was one of the commanders of Hindu-rights. His battle ground was Maharashtra (which he rarely crossed).

Beyond Maha, his call of duty is in the realm of Hindu self-awareness and self-assertion.
If you want Thackray's memory to cross the Maharashtra border, you need to attempt some honesty and not try to burqa-cover his errors. Lectures on Hindu thought are easily obtainable from people who talk.
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Although this is trivial, the right way to argue that BT was a great man is:

1. He saved many lives in 1992-93 (and later).
2. He messed up a few lives by his ethnic politics.
3. The number of people affected by (2) was smaller than (or comparable to) the number of people who benefited from (1).
4. Loss due to (2) is significantly less than gains from (1) because economic dislocation does not cause death.( It "merely" pushes people deeper into poverty).
5. Therefore, BT made a net positive contribution to all of India.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by shiv »

abhishek_sharma wrote: 5. Therefore, BT made a net positive contribution to all of India.
It will require some skilful media management to push this message forward. It is not going to happen if incapable people speak up in his memory.
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4826
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by KLNMurthy »

johneeG wrote: ...

For precisely this reason, there is a need for BT(and SS) in every major urban centre. For eg: Right now, Hyd is in need of one such figure to counter thew menace of Ovaisies.

Congis always promote/create a junior partner who can play the rowdy politics. Generally, this role is played by the islamists, regionalists, or communists. The thing with BT is he started of as a regionalist and then evolved into a saffron leader. He, initially, used the slot provided by the congs to get the foot in the doorway. Then, once he settled down a bit, he used it for Saffron politics. Raj Thackray is trying a similar experiment(again the congs have provided the same slot for the same reasons).

If this slot was not occupied by the BT or RT, then some other regionalist, who happened to be 'secularist', would have done so. Eg: KCR(he is promising sops for the muslims...). This is the general trajectory of all the regionalists. BT was a positive exception. Bhindranwale was a negative exception. DMK is an extreme regionalist. The ideology of DMK is vicious and dangerous at several levels to Hinduism and Indian nation.

I am not averse to 'sons of soil' ideology either. The sons of soil must get priority in employment....regionally, nationally, locally,...etc. So, I agree with that philosophy of Sainiks. I agree with their anti-valentines campaign also. But, the roughing up of poor migrants and the 'lovers' is a downer. But, I guess that is the nature of the beast(local politics).

All in all, BT phenomenon helped the Hindutva. And more urban centres in India need such saffron figures who would be feared and respected by the commies, secularists, islamists and EJs.

On that note, maybe KCR can learn a trick or two from BT. KCR has already milked T-issue for all its worth. Now, perhaps, its time for the next gear: Hindutva. The time, in Hyd(and in India also), is also right. There is a vacuum for a strong Hindutva local leaders. And the growing antics of faithfools is pushing people(even the 'secular' 'Hindus') to search for Hindutva local leaders.

KCR has, so far, taken inspiration from Shibu Soren. He has tried Shibu model. Now, its time to try BT model... if he has the requisite guts and ambition.

Similarly, I think Chennai needs a BT kind of saffron figure to neutralize the impact of MuKa brigade.
In the short term, there may not be any option to hold back the tide of the pure other than to look for a BT figure in Hyd, Chennai etc. But as the case of BT shows, there is a very costly downside to such tactics in that it is divisive and violence once unleashed is had to control and direct; plus in the long term, we need a comprehensive and sustainable approach of a kind that is nowhere on the horizon as of now (except somewhat in corners like BRF). In any case, even a BT-like figure with the right combination of charisma and shrewdness and executive ability doesn't just crop up every day.

About Telangana, it is true that KCR is promising sops to Owaisite parasites, and rewriting the history of Telangana struggle against Nizam, but I believe that grassroots people of Telangana know their history very well and will check the pakiness and tail-wagging. The recent Bhagyalakshmi temple antics of MIM did not go unanswered; there was a reason for the police bandobust, which is hidden behind the "one community, another community" BS language imposed on the media.

Data point: MIM is firmly opposed to Telangana statehood. I believe this is in part because they will have more leeway in a unified state where the hard-core antipathy of Telangana people towards the "turakollu" (sometimes "turuka lan*kodukulu") is mitigated by the seemandhra people who have had a relatively more benign interaction with the pure. KCR himself is not a deeply-rooted Telanganite by heritage, IIRC he hails from somewhere in NorthEast Andhra, one of the districts bordering Telangana.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by RamaY »

shiv wrote: It will require some skilful media management to push this message forward. It is not going to happen if incapable people speak up in his memory.
Unfortunately this is not possible given the composition of national media.

Telugu papers presented an honest picture of his legacy. The Maharastra tiger and people leader who was honest to his ideas and ever patriotic.

http://epaper.sakshi.com/apnews/Hyderab ... 9112012/13
http://www.eenadu.net/news/newsitem.asp ... panel&no=6
http://news.suryaa.com/opinion/edit-page/article-109220
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by RamaY »

KLNMurthy wrote: In the short term, there may not be any option to hold back the tide of the pure other than to look for a BT figure in Hyd, Chennai etc. But as the case of BT shows, there is a very costly downside to such tactics in that it is divisive and violence once unleashed is had to control and direct; plus in the long term, we need a comprehensive and sustainable approach of a kind that is nowhere on the horizon as of now (except somewhat in corners like BRF). In any case, even a BT-like figure with the right combination of charisma and shrewdness and executive ability doesn't just crop up every day.
KLNM garu,

The only comprehensive and sustainable approach is to have a constitution that reflects the national character and vision; and have strong governance structures that enforce that national vision. This is not rocket science.

The problem is INC is well settled in its current position (if you watch BT's interview to Timesnow, he says exactly the same) as a sultanate in a well-entrenched feudal kleptocracy. BT gives a wonderful example by quoting JJ and MB. JJ wins TN state elections (and good number of MPs) against INC/DMK and the very next day joins SG. This is the same with all regional parties. They fight with INC in their region and join the INC-coalition the very next day. This is not democracy.

The solution comes only when all the regional parties or an alternative national party comes to power and changes the constitutional structure of governance to reflect the national vision. Until then new BTs will keep on raising.
Muppalla
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7113
Joined: 12 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Muppalla »

RamaY wrote:
shiv wrote: It will require some skilful media management to push this message forward. It is not going to happen if incapable people speak up in his memory.
Unfortunately this is not possible given the composition of national media.
Media will never be fair to such movements or leaders irrespective of their value to nation and nationalism. It is almost the same around the world. The world after second world war has defined few fictious (biased) terms as parameters (1) human rights (2) liberal values (3) a very manipulative term called inclusiveness ( or divisiveness). Leftism, liberlism, so called nasty right-wing ism are the terms born with such psycology and attitudes.

People of sold to those who drive the above in their own parameters. Nehru, Kennedy and the one who nuked Japan are all inclusive inspite of their huge biases and hipocracy. If someone is brutally honest and single minded to reach the same goals then the other hypocrtic veriety brands them as divisive.

In true terms, those who has chosen the path of right-wingism should not look for wah-wahs. They will never come. Though Modi is not in the league of BT, even if he makes every inch of Gujarat a golden pathway, he will never be inclusive and he will always be buried in Godhra. The legacy is written by the world's psychological establishment.
member_23629
BRFite
Posts: 676
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: RIP Bal Thac

Post by member_23629 »

shiv wrote:
RamaY wrote: People who are ashamed of being Hindus will not be able to understand what this means.
:rotfl: That is the most hypocrtical statement I have heard in defence of a man who got his support from attacking other Indians from North and South India when it was convenient. The least you could atempt is say what he achieved honestly. Clearly Bal Thakray did things which benefited some people and they are grateful. Others suffered even though they were Hindus simply because they were not native to Maharashtra. Honesty demands that both sides should be mentioned rather than wearing a Hindu burqa as you have created.
You are strangely quiet on the oppression of Maratha people in their own homeland by South Indians in the decades after independence, as told in this post of Atri:
In most of the government offices, somehow there were forces which did not allow a marathi person to raise up beyond class-2 level. If anyone was at all promoted, there used to be countless inquiries, transfers and other roadblocks. As far as I understand history, this has been happening ever since MKG's assassination. There were lobbies of South Indians (My father's words) which somehow brought their person from TN to do the job in MH, but refused to promote a Marathi person for the same job.


If South Indians were really doing this to Marathas in Mumbai and other Marathi-speaking areas, then maybe they got what they deserved at the hands of Balasaheb. You are deliberately focussing on the push-back of the Marathas but not on what caused them to behave like that. Maybe being a south Indian is clouding your judgement. Same with the Biharis and UP people -- they have no business descending on Mumbai by the millions and taking away jobs of Maratha manoos. There is going to be a push back.

What will you do if your nieghbours descended on your house and took over your kitchen, arguing that they don't have enough to eat at their own homes so what they are doing is fair and you have to be liberal-minded even if your own children don't get to eat. Cosmopolitanism is fine, but it doesn't mean allowing your demography to be changed to your disadvantage by a flood of economic refugees who will jeopradise the economic security of your kids.
Last edited by member_23629 on 19 Nov 2012 09:27, edited 3 times in total.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by shiv »

Muppalla wrote: In true terms, those who has chosen the path of right-wingism should not look for wah-wahs. They will never come. Though Modi is not in the league of BT, even if he makes every inch of Gujarat a golden pathway, he will never be inclusive and he will always be buried in Godhra. The legacy is written by the world's psychological establishment.
No. Modi and his team are greats in terms of media management. Like Clinton. Everyone will have detractors, but turning them around and making roars turn into squeaks is a hallmark of greatness. Modi has pushed inclusivism while staying at the helm without appearing weak or remorseful. I think it is unfair to Modi to bring up the comparison with Thackray. Thackray took the easy way out by never actually entering government. He was forever man throwing things at government, never in government to take the flak and risk losing.
Post Reply