RIP Bal Thackeray

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RamaY
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RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by RamaY »

RIP beloved son of Bharata Mata!

You showed us how to stand strong against enemies of Bharat, within and outside.

Come back to celebrate Bharat again!
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Bade »

This thread should be closed.

My first IB4TL :P
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by pentaiah »

Bal was a genius stroke by congress to contain DK and DMK separatist movement.
Till 1967 DK and DMK did not realize how stupid their secessionist movement was till South Indians aka Madarsi log were paid in the same coin. Recall the anti Hindi, anti aryan anti Brahmin agitations
( which blues brothers continue till today) pf DMK were check mated in Maharashtra.

Like all congress experiments the genius turns into genie that they can't put back into bottle

Bal was one along with
Bhindaranwale
AGP
Ghaisingh of Gurkha land
LTTE
Now KCR the genius of Chidambaram and company

Divide the people and serve the foreign masters is the modus operandi of Congress
RamaY
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by RamaY »

Perhaps Badeji knows better

We praise one Balasaheb who worshipped British colonizers, who hated Hinduism and who proclaimed that Muslims cannot coexist with Hindus and cannot be trusted and who wrote a constitution that privileged a section of the society for past 60 years and make him the new prophet.

Then we blame another Balasaheb who demanded that all Indians must be loyal to India and Muslims too must be loyal to India and demanded privileges to a specific region of Bharat and who lived for the awareness if Hindus in whatever way he thought it to be right. He is the person who want to stay in swaraka Lola permanently.

How come privileges based on caste is ok but based on their region not ok? Are we seers or patriots or dhimmis?
prahaar
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by prahaar »

Balasaheb is being equated with Prabhakaran/Bhindaranwale.

Bhagwan Balasaheb ki atma ko gati de.
Atri
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Atri »

Goodbye, Balasaheb..

My Shranddhanjali to you... I wish, your jiva rest and returns back to earth to continue the work...
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Rupesh »

RIP Balasaheb.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Rupesh »

Bade wrote:This thread should be closed.

My first IB4TL :P
Yeah right. Didn't find you adding adding IB4TL when YSR died.
Bade
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Bade »

Well take it now then :-) IB4TL for YSR too. And for all other two-bit political stooges who may die in the future.
Last edited by Bade on 17 Nov 2012 21:34, edited 1 time in total.
Nandu
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Nandu »

BT made statements and incited violence against many different groups of Indians, not just Muslims. He will never have my respect.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Rupesh »

X-posting from Nukkad
Atri wrote:
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by shiv »

My only memories Bal Thakre was that of a person who railed and ranted against South Indians in Maharashtra in the 1960s. His populism and political stature were built on going against fellow Indians. So talk of patriotism can go only so far. There was a degree of fear for some - so my memories are not pleasant. It is easy for a politician to make inflammatory speeches. The threatening, bashing up and killing is done by goons and low down functionaries. I think it is wrong to have an RIP thread without allowing honest opinions be known.

In my view IB4TL
Last edited by shiv on 17 Nov 2012 21:49, edited 1 time in total.
nachiket
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by nachiket »

shiv wrote:My only memories Bal Thakre was that of a person who railed and ranted against South Indians in Maharashtra in the 1960s...
And North Indians later on. He was a deeply divisive influence in Mumbai. I don't know why RamaY saar is eulogizing him.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by shiv »

nachiket wrote:
shiv wrote:My only memories Bal Thakre was that of a person who railed and ranted against South Indians in Maharashtra in the 1960s...
And North Indians later on. He was a deeply divisive influence in Mumbai. I don't know why RamaY saar is eulogizing him.
It was far worse for North Indians in recent days than it was for South Indians in those days. Back then it was mainly fear. More recently it was physical attacks and at least one death. Like Yediyurappa, Thackeray was a Hindutva self goal.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by shiv »

Nandu wrote:BT made statements and incited violence against many different groups of Indians, not just Muslims. He will never have my respect.
If you read the book Maximum City and believe what the author says, Thackray reached accommodation with Muslim gangsters. The accommodation was out of mutual fear/respect of what each group could do to the other, so they agreed to keep off each others toes. So much for Hindutva.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by RamaY »

Shiv wrote: I think it is wrong to have an RIP thread without allowing honest opinions be known
A fair point, and I hope we will have a honest discussion.

When GoI approved a cricket series with Pakis post 11/26 most of us cried and called GoI names, including the PM of India. But when BT's goons forcibly stopped a cricket match by digging the pitch, we called this fanatic.
The accommodation was out of mutual fear/respect of what each group could do to the other, so they agreed to keep off each others toes
This is exactly what we are strategizing in the name of deterrence with our competitors across borders. A mutual fear/respect of what each group couple do to the other.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Austin »

shiv wrote:If you read the book Maximum City and believe what the author says, Thackray reached accommodation with Muslim gangsters. The accommodation was out of mutual fear/respect of what each group could do to the other, so they agreed to keep off each others toes. So much for Hindutva.
:lol: :rotfl:
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhijitm »

RIP.

Pakis hated him from their top to toes. Good enough reason for me to pay respect.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Atri »

:rotfl:

I have seen (personally, on many occasions) seculars, so called intellectuals shiver, getting their patloons in twist, when they hear a nara-e-takbeer.. Many so called people, who "oh, I am so opposed to the ideology and methods these uncouth barbarians", yellowed their pants in 1992, 1996, 98, 2004 (various communal riots in western MH, out of which only 1992 was publicized). I have recently seen pants of sekoolar abduls yellowing again on 11th august, 2012 when pure-people gathered in azad maidan for a peaceful protests with SLRs... I have seen this crowd frantically searching for shivsainiks and chaddiwalas, to save their sorry a$$es from pure-people.

And when needful was done, some of these same people were asking for prosecution of Shivsainiks, swayamsevaks, bajrangis for their uncouth barbarianisma.



Here is speech of BT, supporting Namo, before D4 and other "nationalists" garnering courage to come in Namo's open support. No subtitles. As BT said, Do not live like brats of Gaandus...

One of the prophetic speeches of BT, this one..
Last edited by Atri on 17 Nov 2012 22:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhijitm »

shiv wrote:My only memories Bal Thakre was that of a person who railed and ranted against South Indians in Maharashtra in the 1960s. His populism and political stature were built on going against fellow Indians. So talk of patriotism can go only so far. There was a degree of fear for some - so my memories are not pleasant. It is easy for a politician to make inflammatory speeches. The threatening, bashing up and killing is done by goons and low down functionaries. I think it is wrong to have an RIP thread without allowing honest opinions be known.

In my view IB4TL
Shiv, why a considerably large mass of people would follow a man? I can understand you being angry at Bal Thakare because he ranted against south indians. Because obviously that hurt your feeling. Why do you think many marathis from Mumbai followed him at that time? People create leader, do you not agree?
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Atri »

His patronization of Kashmiri Pandits too was much appreciated by Pandits. Lakhs of KP students got education, thanks to BT accommodating them in MH educational institutions. He almost single handedly eradicated communism from MH. MH was all set to tread the glorious path of WB in 1960s when BT rose. Almost an entire generation of urban Marathi people got employment due to him. This is apart from how Hindus were protected and then retaliated in 1992 and later under his leadership.
Last edited by Atri on 17 Nov 2012 22:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by nachiket »

Atri ji, while BT may have been committed to the Hindu cause, his (or rather the whole Shiv Sena's) attitude against North/South Indians served to divide the Hindu vote in Maharashtra. Why do you think the Congress and NCP keep getting re-elected year after year inspite of all their crimes?
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhijitm »

nachiket wrote:his (or rather the whole Shiv Sena's) attitude against North/South Indians served to divide the Hindu vote in Maharashtra. Why do you think the Congress and NCP keep getting re-elected year after year inspite of all their crimes?
Shiv Sena (and now MNS) ways of addressing social problems are avoidable and also unacceptable. On NCP and Congress getting re-elected, I attribute it to the deep rooted caste politics and their hold on the local businesses give them much bigger leverage than BJP and Shiv Sena.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Atri »

nachiket wrote:Atri ji, while BT may have been committed to the Hindu cause, his (or rather the whole Shiv Sena's) attitude against North/South Indians served to divide the Hindu vote in Maharashtra. Why do you think the Congress and NCP keep getting re-elected year after year inspite of all their crimes?
Nachiket ji,

What division of Hindu vote? In all centers where SS was strong, it continued to be strong until RT broke off. NCP-INC comes to power due to 96-clan voter base of SP in sugar belt of western MH. And irrespective of any party they support, this region is staunchly Hindu. I do not know, where you are from (I mean your family), but ask this to oldies of northern MH - who collaborated with SS and Swayamsevaks during malegaon riots? Why is a large perimeter around Malegaon devoid of any ROP presence? It was NCP and INC cadre. There is hardly any difference. This is the reason why EJism could not have foothold in MH, in spite of SP's antics.

BT was predominantly an urban phenomenon. There are many reasons why INC-NCP return to power and none of them have anything to do with BT's attitude towards urban North and South Indians. There are no Bhaiyyas and Madrasis in regions which traditionally elect INC and NCP. There exists large MH beyond Mumbai and Pune, where issues are different. I have spoken about it on assembly election thread, time and again. It would have been crap if Mumbai were to become stronghold of communists.

Furthermore, why can't a political party criticize a group? Did SS/MNS really cause exodus of Madrasis and Bhaiyyas similar to what happened in Bengaluru? How much of it was media generated? How many madrasis were persecuted and forced to leave MH and Mumbai? heck, Varadarajan Mudaliar became Mumbai's Underworld don, rivaling haji mastan during BT's anti-Madrasi era. It was for ensuring jobs for Marathi people, not persecuting non-marathi people. Some people got bashed up, yes.. But then that is their style. And this style and terror was what was needed in 1992.
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Reason: That term shall not be used on BRF. Call them Muslims.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by CRamS »

abhijitm wrote:RIP.

Pakis hated him from their top to toes. Good enough reason for me to pay respect.
++1. I have had many gripes with him, he had deep flaws, but in death, better to recognize what he was in totality. He was one of the direly needed Hindu nationalist politicians.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Lalmohan »

all he succeeded in doing was creating a regionalist gang that feathered its own nest
dont think that served the country
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhijitm »

Atri wrote:Furthermore, why can't a political party criticize a group? Did SS/MNS really cause exodus of Madrasis and Bhaiyyas similar to what happened in Bengaluru? How much of it was media generated? How many madrasis were persecuted and forced to leave MH and Mumbai? heck, Varadarajan Mudaliar became Mumbai's Underworld don, rivaling haji mastan during BT's anti-Madrasi era. It was for ensuring jobs for Marathi people, not persecuting non-marathi people. Some people got bashed up, yes.. But then that is their style. And this style and terror was what was needed in 1992.
Not disagreeing, but sometimes leaders do get carried away which I think is avoidable. But yes, that is a general tendency of pan india politicians. Cannot single out BT or RT.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by svenkat »

Bal thackeray started with a anti-south indian agenda.To be fair to him,he gave that up and south indins have not have had much touble since those early days.

BT within his limittions acknowledged the national interest.SS was the least problematic regional party.Bombay remains the financial capital of India.It is a very cosmopolitan city and home to a very large non-maharashtrian middle/artisan/skilled labour/service class vibrant in every profession and which outnumbers non-maharashtrians significantly.Hindi is the language of the street in Bombay and non-maharashtrians are not discriminated in education,housing etc.Non-maharashtrians are routinely elected to parliament and state assembly from Bombay.

RIP Balasaheb.He had his limitations.But he touched the chords of marathi manoos.And in his later years,he had almost completely given up his earlier stridency.He will be remembered for his ardent Hindu nationalism.

Though its wrong to talk ill of him at this juncture,he will be remembered for bringing parochialism/goondaism into Indias most cosmopolitan city(then) and crushing militant trade unions with the help of Congress leaders using the marathi manoos plank.

The politics that he represented was an interplay of sub-altern,linguistic but also lumpen identity in urban areas and is something that India will have to address in other states too among a host of such sensitive issues in the coming decades.

Also the later migration of Chagan Bhujbal,Narayan Rane showed up the limitations of his mobilisation and this phenomenon has occurred in every state showing up the limitations of populist rhetoric.

His remarks on RSS is again worth considering for the tensions between a strong regional approach and a top down national strategy.

He is a case study for every armchair Hindu jingo who wants a strong Hindutva based nationalism and a sensitive,sustainable society alive to local concerns but not xenophobic to 'others'.

And I strongly condemn pentaihjis statement bracketing him with terrorists like Bhidranwale.A rare offcolour statement from him.Anyday he was better than leaders of other regional parties.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by pentaiah »

What is so different between DK and DMK
Leaders and BT

BT never wanted to secede
Where as others wanted Tamil Eelam
That's a big difference
The good thing about BT he broke the monopoly Hanji Mastans and started his own smuggler rings
Which again was pioneered by DK and DMK gurus from SL Burma and Singapore

So we had east coast Mafia which wanted separate country
On the west coast as reaction to east coast ethnic cleansing and language riots also did it.

We are like this only
In the 1950s DMK continued its anti-Hindi policies along with the secessionist demand for Dravidistan. On 28 January 1956, Annadurai along with Periyar and Rajaji signed a resolution passed by the Academy of Tamil Culture endorsing the continuation of English as the official language.[54][55] On 21 September 1957 the DMK convened an anti-Hindi Conference to protest against the imposition of Hindi. It observed 13 October 1957 as "anti-Hindi Day".[56][57] On 31 July 1960, another open air anti-Hindi conference was held at Kodambakkam, Madras.[58] In November 1963, DMK dropped its secessionist demand in the wake of the Sino-Indian War and the passage of the anti-secessionist 16th Amendment to the Indian Constitution. But the anti-Hindi stance remained and hardened with the passage of Official Languages Act of 1963.[59] The DMK's view on Hindi's qualifications for official language status were reflected in Annadurai's response to the "numerical superiority of Hindi" argument: "If we had to accept the principle of numerical superiority while selecting our national bird, the choice would have fallen not on the peacock but on the common crow."[60][61]
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by SBajwa »

RIP!. Noble intentions but he was a failure for all his aspirations. He wanted to take revenge of the innocent murders but could not do beyond digging up pitches to stop pakis to play in India. And he got himself being equated to the worst of the Islamic terrorists, without adequately raising the issue of Islamic violence in India or abroad.

He was a straight talker, one of the very few Indian politicians who didn't indulge in double speak. He spoke and did what he said.

In my opinion he had a limited Indian as well world view and thus his reach didn't pan across India and got stuck just inside Maratha Land.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by nachiket »

Atri wrote: Nachiket ji,

What division of Hindu vote? In all centers where SS was strong, it continued to be strong until RT broke off. NCP-INC comes to power due to 96-clan voter base of SP in sugar belt of western MH. And irrespective of any party they support, this region is staunchly Hindu. I do not know, where you are from (I mean your family), but ask this to oldies of northern MH - who collaborated with SS and Swayamsevaks during malegaon riots? Why is a large perimeter around Malegaon devoid of any ROP presence? It was NCP and INC cadre. There is hardly any difference. This is the reason why EJism could not have foothold in MH, in spite of SP's antics.

BT was predominantly an urban phenomenon. There are many reasons why INC-NCP return to power and none of them have anything to do with BT's attitude towards urban North and South Indians. There are no Bhaiyyas and Madrasis in regions which traditionally elect INC and NCP. There exists large MH beyond Mumbai and Pune, where issues are different. I have spoken about it on assembly election thread, time and again. It would have been crap if Mumbai were to become stronghold of communists.
I have to admit I didn't follow politics very closely in the 90s, but I do remember news about Shiv Sena attacks (mostly verbal and sometimes physical) against "bhaiyyas", coming on the TV all the time. To be fair to them they had several sympathizers amongst the general public in their opposition to north Indians. I never agreed with that. And IIRC, they have lost the assembly elections even in Mumbai overall during the last decade.
Furthermore, why can't a political party criticize a group? Did SS/MNS really cause exodus of Madrasis and Bhaiyyas similar to what happened in Bengaluru? How much of it was media generated? How many madrasis were persecuted and forced to leave MH and Mumbai? heck, Varadarajan Mudaliar became Mumbai's Underworld don, rivaling haji mastan during BT's anti-Madrasi era. It was for ensuring jobs for Marathi people, not persecuting non-marathi people. Some people got bashed up, yes.. But then that is their style. And this style and terror was what was needed in 1992.
It was needed in 1992. Most definitely agree with that. I was only a kid at the time. But I still remember the whole atmosphere of fear that pervaded the whole city. The problem with SS is that they also turned their guns on innocent people who had come to Mumbai to seek a better future for themselves. They were no different from those of us who migrate to the US for jobs.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by devesh »

so what is the status of Udhav and Raj now?
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by svenkat »

There are sooo many differences listed
1)Secessionist agenda-presence/absence
2)Anti Hindu/pro hindu
3)Bal Thackeray opposed reservation.Karunanidhi had personal hatred for brahmanas/'aryans'.Supporter of an irrational policy on mandal which has damaged polity in North India though it has integrated TN to India.
4)Strong middle class consisting of overwhelming non-maharahtrians in Bombay which is due to legacy of Bombay.Hindi filmmaking is based in Bombay.Advertising capital.Financial Services Capital.Corporate Capital.Many hidden barriers in TN created and relaxed by Mu.Ka.according to his political preferences.Slowly telugu,kannada and malayalam cinema shifted their main base from madras.It was ADMK which has pioneered many reforms(bringing in automobile manufacturing,IT services)
5)Promotion of pseudo racial-linguistic lemurian theories emphasising separation from Indian culture.
6)Bombay has elected many many non-maharashtrians to both parliament and Mantralaya.For instance,informally South Bombay always goes to gujarati/Marwari candidates from both Congress and BJP.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhijitm »

Lalmohan wrote:all he succeeded in doing was creating a regionalist gang that feathered its own nest
dont think that served the country
Regionalist 'gangs' are everywhere. Why do you think India has so many regional parties?

India is a large union of many countries. This is not a settlement of immigrants like USA. Feeling of cultural uniqueness, pride of the region run deep into our society. Be those of punjabis, marathis, tamils, bengalis, kannndas, gujaratis etc. That gives birth to 'Bhumiputra'ness. Immigration on one hand helps local economy but also on the other hand can be seen as cultural onslaught and can create social issues. General Indian nature also does not help here. We are proud of our culture but promptly condescend other's cultures, their food, their way of living. The problem if ignored can take a shape of monster. But luckily sense of nationalism tops regionalism. Hence no community wants to expel other community. What we need is to create win-win.

BT has served the country just well. A community needs a voice to vent their feeling. He gave it to them while keeping nationalism intact. Better than Khalistan movement.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Baikul »

FWIW, he did not get my respect and never will. All the same, RIP.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by RajeshA »

Bal Thackeray was one of better ones among those Indian leaders, who failed to fulfill the hopes of Indians. RIP!
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by Atri »

nachiket wrote:It was needed in 1992. Most definitely agree with that. I was only a kid at the time. But I still remember the whole atmosphere of fear that pervaded the whole city. The problem with SS is that they also turned their guns on innocent people who had come to Mumbai to seek a better future for themselves. They were no different from those of us who migrate to the US for jobs.
No they are no different. The point is, are we as safe as US? Is our GOI taking the measures to ensure "our" safety, like GOTUS? Have GOI and ROI figured out the fundamental question "Who am I?" ? Whatever Shivsainiks did in 1992, it was duty of state to ensure that things do not reach that point. State machinery could see it coming from miles, yet they did nothing. When state fails to do its job, people take up arms. And when people do, it is folly to expect from them professionalism of a soldier OR police.. And I would prefer to see Gundas of SS on streets than "people's army", because the latter is bigger pain in the arse. Former are men of reason.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by SaiK »

If one considers yindutva, it is the dam same thing if you go from the land of Gods to himalayas. Then wtf is all this division by states and languages. Languages should help in improving economic status and administrative head aches, and not add to problems like in belonging-ness to a state or country. In desh, the language split should be only for administrative purposes and not another device to divide and rule. BT used this division to play his brand of politics, and rared many different linguinies in the wrong way. He shall be remembered for his wrong doings more than anything else, however paki bashing he shall be.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Although he was imperfect, I am agreeing with what Atri saar has been saying.
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Re: RIP Bal Thackeray

Post by SaiK »

so, basically saying all it takes is become varadaj mudaliar or BT. one can achieve what one wants. we can only talk about extremism, and nothing about moderation... 'cause, we have a big problem that none is interested to solve for the sake of the nation.
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