IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 19 Sep 2008 15:50

the crotale i remember seeing was portable - unless i have that wrong. its possible that the paks use choppers to ferry them around and move things rapidly to prevent any build up of targetting info

Anshul · Post by **Anshul** » 19 Sep 2008 16:11

On a positive note.The Pakis are going to have a SQN of helos just playing chess in the Rann....!Imagine a pack of helos being chased back to Karachi with Crotales hanging.

SEAD confronted by MEAD(Migration of EAD) would cause more confusion

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 19 Sep 2008 16:50

Kaps sent in these pictures and soem addtional notes.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Sep 2008 18:24

Ranganathan - Pakistan has a sophisticated ADGE, especially at low level.

PAF Pakistan Air Defence System established in 1975 has Air Defense Command HQ Chaklala, Rawalpindi with four Sector Operations Center at Peshawar (North) Quetta (West) Sargodha (Center) and Karachi (South) with six Control and Reporting centers.

Eight Thomson-CSF TRS-2215 mobile and TRS-2230 fixed/relocatable systems, six AN/TPS-77, YLC-2, ten YLC-6 and a leased ERA Věra make up the hardware. AN/TPS-77, YLC-2 and ERA Věra are state of the art systems.

Pakistan Army has linked RBS-70, Mistral, Stinger and Anza to Ericsson Giraffe radars. Pakistan Army has 43 regiments with 200 Oerlikon Contraves GDF-005 35mm and 700 37mm Type 311A guns.

Anshul – it isn’t so funny for a CAS pilot!

Pakistan has among the world’s best SHORAD setup that is highly mobile and can effectively support mechanized and mountain formations.

Most strike aircraft have to slow down while making a pass deploying weapons. This leaves them highly vulnerable to laser guided missiles like RBS-70, Mistral and Stingers that are netted and cued by Giraffe – that is equivalent to Indian Signaal Reporters. Oerlikon Contraves GDF-005 35mm is a highly effective and mobile system and it is cued by the Skyguard system.

Not easy taking out a SHORAD net. The missiles and radars are highly mobile, easy to disperse and hide with extremely short engagement/disengagement time. Difficult for missiles like Kh31P to target mobile radars like Giraffe or Reporter that can be switched off and driven out.

Two British Sea Harriers were shot down and another damaged and written off over Falklands by the Oerlikon/Skyguard combo. The British planned two air strikes against Oerlikon/Skyguard, however managed to destroy only 1 of 15 guns deployed.

The PA SHORAD net can severely attrite any CAS force, though IA SHORAD net can return the favor via Tunguska/Strela-10/Igla/Reporter/Flycatcher

The only way I see around is a good dose of cluster munitions like BL-755 – if you aren’t targeted first. However doesn’t work with friendly forces in vicinity and if you later want to occupy that position (unexploded munitions)

Another solution would be a cheap loitering missile like Harpy. However that might interfere with other flight operations and the radars have the option of staying shut unless in an actual engagement.

Even without a Giraffe or Skyguard, an Oerlikon GDF-005 or RBS-70 can be easily cued as the aircraft is making its pass flying low and slow.

Lalmohan – You’re referring to RBS-70. Crotale is much larger and has its own wheeled vehicle.

Lastly – It is highly commendable that PA & PN SSG were able to set up an AD net using RBS-70 and Mistral within few hours at the Atlantique crash site. That incident was the first public confirmation of Mistral in PA service.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Sep 2008 18:55

^^
precisely why I was advocating moving towards high-altitude strikes against the pakis with the right platforms and the weapons.

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Sep 2008 18:56

Many eyes were opened during the time of the Kargil ops.
Many hitherto unknown assets were "discovered"
The Gujerat border is quite innovatively defended.

Are there any notable stuff you could please share here(other than the treasure trove tsarkar unearthed)?

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 19 Sep 2008 19:58

Argentinians claimed two harriers where drowned one with 35 mm gun and the second to a Roland missile.but both claimed Sea harrier XZ 458 and XZ 491 both survived and were return off later in service

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 19 Sep 2008 20:58

Sukhois on way to US denied overflight by Iran

India’s top-notch Sukhoi-30MKIs were inadvertently caught in the middle of the bitter US-Iran feud when Tehran refused permission to the fighter jets to fly over its territory on way to the US in July to take part in Red Flag air combat exercise.

This has come to light now after the IAF contingent of eight Sukhois, two IL-78 mid-air refuellers and an IL-76 heavy-lift aircraft, along with 91 officers and 156 airmen, returned to India last week after the gruelling world-famous wargames at the Nellis US Air Force base in Nevada.

Sources said IAF’s ‘‘initial routing plan through Iran’’ went completely haywire after Tehran refused permission to its aircraft to overfly its territory just a few days before they were scheduled to take off from Pune and other airbases on July 7. ‘‘Iran made it very clear that if you are flying to the US, you cannot fly over our country. This sent the IAF team scrambling to chart out an alternate route and arrange more visas for the entire team,’’ said a source.

The ‘‘new routing’’ saw the IAF contingent taking ‘‘an awkward, circuitous path’’, with the Sukhois and other aircraft first heading for Qatar (Doha) and then flying over Egypt before finally heading north to Turkey (Corlu).
After a stopover at Corlu on July 11, they crossed the Mediterranean to land at the French airbase Mont De Marsan before finally reaching the US mainland on July 17 after hopping through Lajes (Portugal) in a mind-boggling 19,212-km journey, interspersed by mid-air refuelling over the high seas.

India, of course, is caught right in the middle of the ongoing bitter spat between Iran and the US, with the latter accusing the former of trying to covertly make atomic bombs under the cover of its civilian nuclear programme.

Both US and Israel have not ruled out the possibility of pre-emptive military strikes to destroy Iran’s nuclear facilities. In fact, the Israeli Air Force had even held an exercise over the Mediterranean in June, which was widely believed to be the simulation of a strike against Iranian nuclear installations.

This could have spooked Iran into denying permission to the Indian fighters, wary as it is of the ever-growing strategic embrace between India and the US, which has seen the two hold as many as 50 joint combat exercises in the last seven years to build ‘‘interoperability’’.

India’s long-standing ties with Iran, in fact, took a big hit when New Delhi voted against Tehran in the IAEA board of governors’ meetings in September 2005 and March 2006.

But while India remains opposed to the further spread of nuclear weapons, it wants the Iranian nuclear issue to be resolved through peaceful diplomacy, holding that the IAEA framework provides the best forum to address technical aspects of the issue.

Since then, India has tried to mend fences with Iran, even hosting Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on a brief visit in April after strongly rebuffing a call by the US to ask Iran to suspend its uranium enrichment programme.

So, in addition to the realistic war scenario and network-centric environment at the Red Flag wargames, the IAF contingent - which followed almost the same route on its way back - also got a dose of geopolitics in the bargain.

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Sep 2008 09:20

Hi tsarkar,
How would our SHORAD net and basic AD mechanism compare against the Pakis and the Chinese(i.e, from the viewpoint of a attacking Paki/Chinese CAS pilot)? Do you have similar info the Chinese SHORAD?

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 20 Sep 2008 19:44

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 20Exercise

The Defense Department is inviting the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) to participate in the Red Flag aerial combat training exercise next year at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada.

An Air Force spokesman told Aerospace DAILY there is “a possibility that the Pakistani Air Force will participate in a Red Flag in 2009.” Group Capt. Ahmer Shehzad, the air attaché at the Pakistani embassy, confirmed that the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) had been invited to Red Flag, but he said officials in Islamabad will decide whether to accept the invitation. India, Pakistan’s regional rival – the two countries have fought three wars since they both gained independence in 1947 – participated in Red Flag for the first time this past summer.

First indications of Pakistan’s participation came at a hearing before a House Foreign Affairs subcommittee earlier this week in which State and Defense Department witnesses tried to persuade skeptical lawmakers of the merits of reprogramming more than $250 million in military assistance funding to pay for upgrades to Pakistan’s aging fleet of F-16A/Bs (Aerospace DAILY, Sept. 17).

Bush administration officials insisted that the U.S.-funded upgrades to Pakistan’s 1980s F-16s will be used to counter al Qaeda terrorism – not Indian air superiority.

Air Force Maj. Gen. Burton M. Field, vice director of strategic plans and policy on the Pentagon’s Joint Staff, told committee members the upgrades will allow the PAF to conduct close air support and precision strikes at night – which it can’t do now.

Field said Pakistan’s participation in Red Flag would be preceded by “a series of progressive building block approaches over in their own country, getting them ready for that large scale program.”

Photo: Pakistani Air Force

AnantD · Post by **AnantD** » 20 Sep 2008 20:40

Air Force Maj. Gen. Burton M. Field, vice director of strategic plans and policy on the Pentagon’s Joint Staff, told committee members the upgrades will allow the PAF to conduct close air support and precision strikes at night – which it can’t do now.

I think every TSP F-16 be upgraded and all the cobbled up junk on them that allows them to carry Nukes be trashed. Plus remote destruct switches be installed in case they head in the wrong direction.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Sep 2008 20:48

may be it's time to archive this thread. unlikely any more snippets will appear.

I'm not ready to wait till next year to see if the pakis get a lal jhanda or not !

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 20 Sep 2008 21:06

but who will pay for the expenses if they go to exercise?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 21 Sep 2008 03:32

Nitesh wrote:but who will pay for the expenses if they go to exercise?

Why..their rich uncle ofcourse.

Then PAF will come back bragging they have defeated the only superpower in the world and managed a 400% kill success against the F-22!

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 21 Sep 2008 04:58

So they inveigled an invitation.

SGupta · Post by **SGupta** » 21 Sep 2008 09:03

My foot that PAF will use the enhanced capabilities of their F16's to conduct night strikes in close support operations. Oh there will be some night strikes if they get the capability but anyone that is remotely connected with the Taliban will have been warned away by the ISI or whoever.

Rant off and back to the topic at hand.

As far as Red Flag goes, the question I have is who got more out of this round of participation, India or the US and who will get more out of it next time? Perhaps the learning is assymetric but still valuable to both participants?

Regards,
Sanjay

rad · Post by **rad** » 21 Sep 2008 20:58

Tsarkar , your analysis of the Pak adge and shoraad system was good , it should be wake up call for those who think it would be a cake walk during a CAS .
I would remind people that most of the downed a/c in the gulf war was due to low level aaa and missiles , that is inspite of the overwhelmiong EW capacity of the west .The only way seems to be a change of tactics a to a medium level with advanced EW and sead attacks on the c3 network and anti radiation missiles.The low level missile are the best ie RBS-70 , mistral and stingers. I remember seeing oerlikon AD radars and guns in Aero india show , what happened?. Personally i feel we should go for the 35 mm guns firing ahead ammo whatever the cost .They are deadly .

rajpa · Post by **rajpa** » 22 Sep 2008 12:35

only waiting for the report from Vishnu Som .. wassup vishnu?

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 24 Sep 2008 15:40

Its coming up close to Air Force day or on Air Force day ... its a 30 minute documentary on Red Flag ... I flew on an Il-78 there ... and have some aerial footage of the Sukhois...

Got diverted to Bihar for the floods ops ... but am back now in Delhi and will start working on this soon...

Cheers

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 24 Sep 2008 16:19

Great. Looking forward to it

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 26 Sep 2008 16:16

Will the report be available on the net ? Or will there be any way to get/see it in Europe ? Thanks

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Sep 2008 16:51

somebody will youtube it.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 02 Nov 2008 17:13

Red flag thread is closed that's why posting here.

Your comments awaited.

Cheers....

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Nov 2008 21:14

Amazing videos, Neeraj ji...

Interesting to note the "impression" of the French in the USAF as snoopers. So,the French sent their Rafael just to spy on the Su-30MKI!!!!

Also,the USAf jock's last comment was that the Bisons are a big threat..So, the USAF still doesnt see India as a close ally yet?
Nice to know that the USAF also is a bit concerned about the Bisons. We seem to have made a really good aircraft out of the old MiG-21s

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Nov 2008 21:21

thread was mistakenly trashed by someone. being restarted now
this will go to exercises archive when posts dry up.
regards,
Rahul.

neeraj, thanks.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 02 Nov 2008 21:36

Nice videos Neeraj. Best stuff to come out of red flag yet on the findings.

In that officer's opinion, the following are the major weaknesses of the IAF performance

1. higher gap between ac in stream take offs
2. losing in 1 vs 1 air combat
3. fratricides (due to lack of active data link with AWACs)

I can bet the major issue would be the aircombat experiences and the pilots would have taken it back as a lesson to address. 1 and 3 are merely differences in operational environment / strategy

sam_kamath · Post by **sam_kamath** » 02 Nov 2008 22:05

neerajbhandari.... you made my day...
One small thing though ... when you get into that power sapping TV move you are not trying to get your guns on the other guy.. what you are trying to do is get that aircraft in the corner of your eye. cause even though you are loosing thrust and this guy is right about it ..with the MKI looks do kill .. and from any angle the short range I/R missile has lot more thrust than any aircraft..
it would be interesting to see if that MKI had a missile on or was he completely out of it and employing the move.

Any ways the point to take home according to me is "Oh My god ..... the dude just made a case for the LCA"

small cross section.. AESA ... digita link ...jammers ...multiple take offs (BISON Mark2 ++)

I hope some one in DOD sees this ...

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 02 Nov 2008 22:08

I didn't expect this response. I mean look at what that guy is saying. Tumanasky engines in Flanker which flame out due to FOD?? So IAF requested 1 min intervals between flights? What FOD has to do with this gap? He is saying that Indians were shot down and they have no IFF and datlink whereas we all know the handicap. For me it's self bragging by USAF and derogatory for IAF. For me these videos are crap.

Cheers....

sam_kamath · Post by **sam_kamath** » 02 Nov 2008 22:16

neerajbhandari wrote:I didn't expect this response. I mean look at what that guy is saying. Tumanasky engines in Flanker which flame out due to FOD?? So IAF requested 1 min intervals between flights? What FOD has to do with this gap? He is saying that Indians were shot down and they have no IFF and datlink whereas we all know the handicap. For me it's self bragging by USAF and derogatory for IAF. For me these videos are crap.

Cheers....

Neeraj dont worry ..these guys were in traditional terms relatively rooky pilots.. who were identified as potentials... remember Red Flag is to give a new pilot lessons on the first 100 hours of the war it is not designed to give veterans a flash back of what they might have already learnt and experienced.
Now the thing gets real hot on the MRCA thread.. Also please join me in some paki sites.. those guys just got second wind...

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 02 Nov 2008 23:32

Did any one download the videos? I am getting a message that it is pvt.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 03 Nov 2008 00:39

neerajbhandari wrote: So IAF requested 1 min intervals between flights? What FOD has to do with this gap?

FOD can be the dust and debris kicked up by the jet blast of the aircraft before you. The one minute gap between the stream take off would allow time for the dirt to settle down before the second aircraft goes down the runway.

FOD may reduce the engine life - but from our POV, we really dont need to shorten an engine life in peace time just for the heck of it. But the USAF may not share the same economic concerns that we have.

Ashwin B · Post by **Ashwin B** » 03 Nov 2008 01:04

Is it just me or does it say "We're sorry, this video has been removed" ?

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 03 Nov 2008 01:13

Ashwin B wrote:Is it just me or does it say "We're sorry, this video has been removed" ?

I am getting the same message.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 03 Nov 2008 01:46

Fear not, a transcript will be posted here soon i due course

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 03 Nov 2008 01:57

and here it is - courtesy of GJ man and self:

The transcript

You have lot of questions on the Su-30MKI - big aircraft, huge aircraft etc.

(Some bits about an F-22 and Su30 composite video on youtube and how both appear identical but this is only for airshows etc)

Coming to aircraft capabilities, the Sukhoi 30 with its avionics, radar , weapons compares well with our legacy fighters, the F-15 and F-16. The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher). But now compare with the F-225 raptor, the raptor is here. (holds palm way above his head - signifying that the aircraft is much better).

The Sukhoi engines (i believe he called them Tumansky? ) are very vulnerable to FOD. The Indians asked for a 1 minute spacing between take offs - with nearly 50-60 aircraft supposed to take off in a ___ who will wait one minute between each take off to launch these six aircraft, c'mon, you can go elsewhere.. but what we did was launch their aircraft ahead, since they had enough gas fuel, they would go and wait / orbit ahead and the rest would join up.

The engines were particularly ... what would happen is that the FOD damaged engines would have to be flown to russia for overhaul and the Indians sitting all the way here, it wasnt particulary...

Now coming to the aircombat. You know the story of Cope India and how our F-15s went there for the exercise at the Indian Nellis. Our aircraft were a regular unit while they had the most experienced pilots on the Sukhoi-30s there. ours were a mix of 80-20 - 80 percent with low experience, less than 500 hours on the F-15, the remaining 20 were fairly experienced but they came back from a staff appointment but they had experience. The Indian pilots came from MiG-21 Bison units. the MiG-21 bison, as you know is based on the Mig from the Vietnam war era, but upgraded with an Israeli radar, Israeli jammer, active homing missile etc. the small RCS of the MiG-21 with the Israeli jammer would make them invisible to radar... mean they could close in on our legacy fighters and engage in aircombat.

anyway at Cope India, we held our own, but the Indians went to town thumping their chests - they said we shot them down more times than they shot us down - which was true.

Now here at Red Flag, the Sukhoi unit that they sent was a regular operational unit - had a mix of 50-50 (experienced and inexperienced). They had come off MiG-21s and worked... Well what happened was after the first two to three days of operations, you know exchanging patches and all, we went up in 1 vs 1 combat.

The Sukhoi has thrust vectoring engines. the pilot has to engage a swtich on the stick to engage the TVc nozzles on the engine. We had enough experience with the F-22. which has up/down TVC nozzles. What would happen is that the in a merge with the F-22, you would be pulling in scissor fight hoping you would get the F-22 in your sights (laughs ). The F22 can sustain a turn rate of 26-28 deg per second while the F-15 can get an instantaneous rate of 22 and a sustained rate of 16-17. So you are pulling and hoping.

Now from our experience, the only way you would get the F-22. and the only way - this happens only if there is an inexperienced pilot because the experienced ones never make the mistake. is that he wants more than 26-28 sustained turn rate and pulls tighter. the TVC pushes the aircraft into post stall and the ass end drops. the aircraft then instead of turning goes vertical. This is where the F-15 pilot would pull up vertical, switch to guns, then come down and take a shot at the F-22. Of course you have to first get in close to do this. most probably the F-22 will kill you before that.

the Sukhoi has TVC in a V (hand gesture) . This was with an F-15 in regular configuration, missiles under wings , drop tanks with fuel in them. The Sukhoi was clean with the exception of one wing station which ahd the ACMI pod. So in the mege, with all the frantic manuevering in trying to merge. The sukhoi can do 22 deg in a sustained turn rate. The TVC would kick in and push the aircraft in this direction when the pilot engages the switch on the stick. All this is formidable on paper but what you would know is that with the TVC kicking in, its a huge aircraft, and thrusting such a huge aircraft in that direction creates a lot of drag. So in the fight the aircraft would go into a post stall TVC maneuver, the ass end drops and instead of going up, it just drops in mid air. The F-15 wouldn't even have to pull up. slight pull up on the stick, engage guns, come down and drill his brains out.

The Indians were astonished. We were amazed. After three to four days of `1vs1, they said, okay we had enough of this lets get back to the regular operations. While at Cope India , all the Indians wanted to do was just 1 vs 1 (laughs!)

Part 2

One thing about the IAF - they were a professional lot and they were very strict about the rules of the flying area. during their stay they made zero mistakes -/ errors about the flying area and that was incredible. we had other expectations but they were quite good.

The french usually came with Mirage 2000 dash 6, but the moment they knew the Indians were getting the Sukhois they decided to send the Rafales. their latest, advanced...

Now what the french would do, they would fly many missions with the Indians, the IAF would lead would shoot or get shot, then the french would shoot (implying from a distance) and turn back. They were just listening around, soaking up all the electronic traffic and ... (Snooping around in short) (talks about coalition setting up air cover, french would just send a patrol up, listen in , snoope in and then also say - "we participated as well"

The Koreans bought in their brand new F-15Ks. beautiful aircraft, with AESA radar and all. but they had less than 50 hours on it (this type and these were straight from the factory had zero hours on them) and they were still learning the aircraft. so it did not have any significant impact.
The IAF was also very serious about another thing. They killed a lot of friendlies. You know what was happening is that they didn't have the datalink with the Awacs Big internet data links. Russian made data links no computer link - the Koreans, the French and us could see the complete picture on the HUD, but the IAF had to ask the AWACS. they would ask about a target ahead, "Contact on my nose 22 miles, friendly or hostile?" Awacs would say "No hostile within 40 miles of you" then "Fox2." (laughs/audience laughs) The first two days they got hit bad, they were getting shot down while waiting for answers so they decided to kill the other guy fast without knowing.. better you die than me. But they took the fratricides very seriously.

Something about the French and "God Forbd we have to (fight with them)"

Red Flag Alaska (PACOM??): This is different from Red Flag Nellis. This where we exercise for friendship building. Most countries that fly there are in a conflict with each other. While in Red Flag Nellis we usually fly with coaltions partners. The Indians really wanted to participate in Red Flag Nellis.

Some comments on the Bison followed

There was a question of PESA and AESA. he clarified something on that.
FIRST QUESTION: "What do you think about the Su-30's Radar range?" Answer: It's a PESA not an AESA. Not active but passive. PESA is good but ends up having more technical problems finding the bad guy

----------------
Updated figures from Neeraj
Eagle : 15-16 sustained, 21 instantaneous
MKI : 24 sustained
Raptor : 28 sustained

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 03 Nov 2008 02:55

Jagan, GJ man..thanks a bunch!

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 03 Nov 2008 03:21

So what does that mean, the transcript. Ddid we do good or not?

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 03 Nov 2008 05:20

If they are talkin about it, I guess we are doing alright!

Babui · Post by **Babui** » 03 Nov 2008 05:28

I, for one, am happy that the Sukhoi's got their brains "drilled" in training. I suspect that TACDE is already working hard at countermeasures. What was most interesting about the transcript was the discussion on AESA. Until now, I had always heard of the supremacy of AESA over all radars but could not understand how it could be so effective. For the first time, I understood how AESA benefits the side using it. Still, I'm against the IAF selecting Super Hornet for AESA alone. As for the French - typical farging frogs!! No wonder they have been losing wars for generations.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 03 Nov 2008 06:45

So we are still using a stick for TVC on MKI! I thought it's all integrated with the FBW.

Jagan, If I remember correctly, the turn rates in the video were:

Eagle : 15-16 sustained, 21 instantaneous
MKI : 24 sustained
Raptor : 28 sustained

Cheers...