Bharat Rakshak

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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 06:30 
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the religious belief of the individual compels him to subscribe politically to the beliefs of the religious leaders ...


There are so many exceptions to the above statement, that one might say that this rule is observed more in the breach. Consequently one might say that repeating such an obvious falsehood *is* the politics of hate.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 06:33 
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@Bade
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I thought you may bring up the Pauli exclusion principle to rebut the comments on the fundamentality of physics ideas even in the macroscopic world. Anyway here it is to the benefit of Greg from Wiki onlee.


I never challenged the fundamentality of Physics ideas. In fact I acknowledged it quite explicity. What I tried to make Alok understand is that there is a layer of science sufficently removed from fundamental Physics so as to allow us to make revolutionary (and commercially profitable :) ) discoveries without worrying about quantum mechanics or general relativity or in many cases even Newtonian physics. I think I hurt his feelings by reminding him that chemists and biologists would care less if the US simply stopped funding fundamental physics completely. I think we know enough in that area and what we don’t, we can extract from scriptures. :D


Last edited by Greg on 09 Apr 2007 06:42, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 06:41 
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There is an admin debate on that might end these threads.

If anyone felt there was any gyan in the last 10 threads. Please start archiving them separately
About three-four years ago, we were having a debate on religion and Bharatiya culture ...

... and that resulted in Rakesh terminating Hauma Hamiddha's membership of BRF ... TSJ was very happy that Hauma was gone ... this thread has atleast given me an answer why this was the case ... that TSJ is an evangelical priest/pastor ...


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 06:44 
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Oh yes. The minorities owe the majority some very important things.
- It owes them the assurance that they do not agree with the methods and philosophies used by their co-religionists of past and present that are a direct threat to the majority. Till now on this forum only Rakesh has unequivocally provided this assurance
- It owes them good faith in the redressal of the past wrongs committed by their co-religionists on the lives, property, culture and history of the majority
-


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 06:47 
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The minorities owe the majority some very important things.


And what happens if they don't agree?


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 06:49 
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Calvin wrote:
Quote:
The minorities owe the majority some very important things.


And what happens if they don't agree?

The results can be seen as what is happening in NorthEast of India.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 07:09 
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The results can be seen as what is happening in NorthEast of India.


That's not what I was getting at. We were discussing how the minorities "owe" the nation. My question was directed at this idea of a "debt" that is "owed", and what would happen if the "minority" doesn't feel this "debt."

This is a very real question, because there are a large number of Indians (~140MM of them) that were not around when the invaders or colonizers came and did their atrocities and who are the religious (if not natural) descendants of these atrocious people.

Speaking for myself, I do not identify with these people, and asking me to identify with those people serves two purposes - it enrages me; and it makes me feel like an outsider in my own land. I do not feel I owe *anyone* anything for what I am.

Given this, I am curious as to what consequence is wished upon those that do not feel that they owe the nation collective for being part of the minority.

Finally, at what point do we recognize that visiting the sins of the father on the son, *is* the abominable practice of "collective guilt." So, please tell me what the consequence is...


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 07:14 
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this is not some great or unique episode but it provides some reaffirmation of the indian context.

Quote:
Muslim leaders seek Bharat Ratna for Centenerian seer
DH News Service Tumkur:
The office bearers of the Tumkur National Educational Movement have urged that the centenarian Siddaganga mutt seer Dr Shivakumara Swami should be given the Bharat Ratna award.

The Muslim leaders felicitated the seer and later made this demand in a press release.

The revolution that the sharanas did in the 12th century was now being done in the 20th and the 21st century by the seer. By honouring him one is honouring oneself. He is the living example of ‘Service to mankind is service to God.’

Lakhs of poor children have seen the light of the day due to the untiring work of the seer and his secular outlook.

It is no doubt welcome that the seer’s contributions have been recognised and he was conferred ‘Karnataka Ratna.’ But he definitely deserves the country’s highest award ‘Bharat Ratna,’ for his immense contributions, urged the Muslim leaders, in the release.

On this occasion Mustaq Ahmed, vice president Mohammed Afroze Ahmed, Mohammed Noorulla, H B Dastigir, Mohammed Yousuf and Kutubuddin felicitated the seer.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 07:19 
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Abhijit wrote:
Oh yes. The minorities owe the majority some very important things.
- It owes them the assurance that they do not agree with the methods and philosophies used by their co-religionists of past and present that are a direct threat to the majority. Till now on this forum only Rakesh has unequivocally provided this assurance
- It owes them good faith in the redressal of the past wrongs committed by their co-religionists on the lives, property, culture and history of the majority
-


The minority does not owe anything to the majority for the past, but they owe it to themsleves to be cognizant of the atrocities of the past in which many from the minorities are victims and to let truth prevail - even if that truth is against religious dogma.

They owe it to themselves to not let their religious and political leaders to hold the nation at ransom and cry wolf in the name of minority rights.

They owe it to themselves, to not divide the nation in the name of religion.

They owe it to themselves to live in peace and communal harmony. Harmony that promotes unity and national integration.

The majority owes the minority equality and non-discrimination.

The majority also owes to itself and the nation to ensure that national interests super cede any sectarian interests.


Last edited by ShauryaT on 09 Apr 2007 07:40, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 07:31 
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enrages me; and it makes me feel like an outsider in my own land

I think this is a problem with making simplistic analogies like rapist and the baby resulting from the rape. Since rape came in the context of destruction of hindu temples etc., I am curious if the same treatment can be extended to the buddhist temples that were taken over ( a good example would be the Kodungalloor temple in kerala where profane songs are sung to this day that commomerates the victory over buddhists). Weren't wars fought between princely states of India for a long time ? Can they all be considered rapes ? How about the war between Calicut Zamorin and Valluva Konathiri of Valluva Nadu that was celebrated as "mamankam" in kerala ? Since Valluva Nadu got defeated, can people of that princely state consider zamorin as well as people from Calicut as rapists ?

I had also brought up the example of Mahars fighting side-by-side with the british that brought the Maratha empire down. So in this case are the mahars also considered rapists ? If not, why not?

As a matter of fact,leadership of lower-castes in India, were ambivalent at best about the british rule . Take the examples of Mahatma Phule (we saw the outrage from some posters already), Periyar EVR, Ambedkar etc.

The problem is trying to apply the present day morality to past events and trying to selectively attribute the blame to one party in 21st century. The problem with that approach is that this blame game can be played by other parties who got oppressed like dalits, lower castes etc. which formed the majority of the population at that time or even today (any amount of creative story-telling masquerading as history is not going to fool anyone, however hard one may try to blame "marxist" historians not telling the "truth" about caste system created by muslims and british aka rapists :D :D ).

The point is (for those who keep missing these in my posts) suddenly one could find the tables turned quickly.


Last edited by Sajan on 09 Apr 2007 07:34, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 07:32 
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Calvin wrote:
Quote:
the minorities dont owe anything to the majority per se, but to the nation collectively.


OWE? What does any individual citizen "owe" the nation, any different from any other citizen? What does the religious belief of said citizen have to do with what s/he "owes" the nation? (Not counting taxes, another abominable practice)


Calvin, please mind that the bolded part is your addition. The context was in reference to minorities owing something and I clarified my opinion.

I am not good at this and you wont have to try very hard for me to trip unintentionally. Please play your games with someone else.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 07:53 
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Sajan wrote:

The point is (for those who keep missing these in my posts) suddenly one could find the tables turned quickly.


The tables turn again and keep on turning without a point. That is the point which others are pointing which is missed by you.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 07:55 
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The problem is trying to apply the present day morality to past events and trying to selectively attribute the blame to one party in 21st century.


True.

The problem also is using (just as an example mind you) a 7th century text by one group in the XXI century as the basis for demanding special treatments and accomodation not afforded (rather selectively, mind you) to non-groupies.

Or openly and closely preaching that all except the truthful ones (in one group, naturally) are corrupted to the core and regardness of the goodness of their heart and their deeds are destined to roast in hell by the the G-d of the 'truthful' ones. Capiche?

Quote:
The problem with that approach is that this blame game can be played by other parties who got oppressed like dalits, lower castes etc. which formed the majority of the population at that time or even today


Very true.

And no SDRE yindoo here supports/lauds/is proud of the caste discrimination that happened in the past. None here seem afraid to own up to past caste atrocities and are prepared (IMVHO here) to renounce any scriptural/dogmatic/theological basis for caste discrimination.

Now, are the smaller groups willing to do the same? That is, renounce renounce any scriptural/dogmatic/theological bases of showing one/more groups inferior/blashphemous/ destined for hell/ etc etc?

Yes?

Really?!!

That would be very very interesting, indeed. And news to me, certainly.

Quote:
(any amount of creative story-telling masquerading as history is not going to fool anyone, however hard one may try to blame "marxist" historians not telling the "truth" about caste system created by muslims and british aka rapists Very Happy Very Happy ).


You mean marxist historians have thus far spoken only truth and nothing but the truth as regards the caste system? Or any other system at all? Go out on a limb will ya, and tell me that all those who challenge the marxist version are creative story-tellers?

Quote:
Not going to fool anyone?

This coming from you?

Quote:
The point is (for those who keep missing these in my posts) suddenly one could find the tables turned quickly.


True.
A point that those seeking to apply 1st and 7th century dogma to the XXIst fail to appreciate. No?


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 07:55 
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Calvin wrote:
Quote:
the religious belief of the individual compels him to subscribe politically to the beliefs of the religious leaders ...


There are so many exceptions to the above statement, that one might say that this rule is observed more in the breach. Consequently one might say that repeating such an obvious falsehood *is* the politics of hate.


I anticipated such a "huff and puff" from you, so I had added this in my last post ... it is is still valid ...

Quote:
I will not argue this point using libertarian principles ... if the above statement is not clear in context of madarsa mullahs and church preachers, I can't elaborate much without going down a path of comparative religion all over again ...


"hate", my friend, is a term you couldn't possibly comprehend ...

:)


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 08:01 
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Greg wrote:
What I tried to make Alok understand is that there is a layer of science sufficently removed from fundamental Physics so as to allow us to make revolutionary (and commercially profitable :) ) discoveries without worrying about quantum mechanics or general relativity or in many cases even Newtonian physics. I think I hurt his feelings by reminding him that chemists and biologists would care less if the US simply stopped funding fundamental physics completely. I think we know enough in that area and what we don’t, we can extract from scriptures. :D


there are no hurt feelings ... and, just like anything else, you are misinformed about biological research as well ...

physics funding is puny compared to biological funding ... NIH budget is reaching $30B compared to physics budget of about $2 B ... if you guys are so innovative, why do you need the "dole" from the government ... the truth is that the bio-industry are a corrupt bunch that have extracted government subsidies and retained intellectual property ...

yes. if you invent something using NIH funds, the NIH does not require a piece of the patent ...

as I said boss, even whores make good money ...

why mess it up by comparing physicists with bio-industry ...

I am happier with these two comparisons:

1. Compare physics with religion.
2. Compare bio-industry with whores.

in that sense, there is nothing new about bio-industry ... whores invented that system 5,000 years ago ...

see, all of physics is in the Vedas and all of crooked industry is the handbook of whores ... :)


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 08:03 
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Alok - No allusions to madrassas, or evangelist preachers obscures the fact that millions are not beholden to them. Your post tars everyone with the same brush. That *is* collective guilt. That *is* hate.

Secondly, it may be best if you restricted your commentary to what *you* know about (i.e., you have no idea about my knowledge or experience with hate; you may want to consider that everywhere that I have lived, I have lived as a minority)


Last edited by Calvin on 09 Apr 2007 08:05, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 08:03 
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Calvin wrote:
Quote:
The minorities owe the majority some very important things.


And what happens if they don't agree?

Then there is a risk of increased majority fundamentalism. KGoan pointed out succinctly once that the danger for India is not the minority fundamentalism but the majority fundamentalism and I agree with him. But one must realize that there are limits to the so-called tolerance of the majority. The more the majority feels that the minorities have no interest in distancing themselves from the past atrocities and present excesses/obstinacies, the more the majority will move towards somebody who offers radical solutions.
Calvin it is not a personal thing. Nobody (at least not I and millions like me) expects a Muslim or a christian to personally profess his/her distaste as a badge of honor or acceptance. But I do look at the political leadership of the community as a whole and draw conclusions. It is up to the minority members to let the extremists hijack their political representation or to prevent it. As far as the majority is concerned, we have let the appeasers speak for us long enough and still do but times are changing.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2007 10:03 
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Calvin wrote:
Quote:
The minorities owe the majority some very important things.


And what happens if they don't agree?


Just natural human goodness to count the blessings and be thankful.

Imagine enjoying birth in a minority community in Pakistan, Malaysia, Tajikistan, Turkaministan, Uzbakistan, Iran, Arabia, Indonesia, China, or most Latin American countries (hic count in Slovakia, Czech Republic, Poland too). One wouldn't like to know the good stuff missing in these countries.

Rakesh wrote:
I for one am glad that St Thomas came to India in 52 AD and also the Islamic hordes that came to India during the time of Babur (or whenever they came). India is better off a nation of multi-religious faiths, otherwise we would be sharing the same fate as Pakistan.

That is the most asinine statement I have ever heard from any Indian citizen. Being glad for a marauding and deadly foreign attacker on homeland who not only violently raped, pillaged, plundered its people not only of wealth & honor but also their belief and culture. What do anyone make of your identity and belonging in all this? Who cares for taste for Rogan-josh or Mexican chapula or American/Canadian apple pie or Chinese Fried grasshoppers. India and Indians, will never condone or invite invasions of its homeland by Babur/Mexican/American/Chinese hoard to put our life, property, women, religion and culture to their fancy.

Please tell how many generations distance you have w.r.t barbarity and its social consequence the Babur invasion had on Indian who came on its path? Compare that with what I and many other Indian have endured until 1967 living directly under the sword of Babur and all that it brought? Do not belittle our pain with your indifference and taste bud for rogan josh.

In the misery brought by Babur the talk of seeing a silver line in multi-ethnic culture and food is the language of an abject loser. Indian people are no loser and will march up to its manifest destiny to it be the prime mover and beacon of ingenuity, wealth, freedom and culture.
Rakesh wrote:
otherwise we would be sharing the same fate as Pakistan.
I tried hard to read this for any positive angle, and could find none. This statement says that if India was single religious (aka native Indian religions only ) or relatively much smaller minorities it had before Babur (Islamic invasions) Indian social behavior will be same as the fate that the single religion state of Islamic Jihadi Pakistan is stewing now. Care to substantiate it? That is IMO pure camel manure.

Rakesh wrote:
Thirdly, no minority in India is obligated to the majority for its existence. India belongs as much to the minority as it does to the majority .


Only an ungrateful soul will not be thankful to the Indian majority to allow creation and imposition of an egalitarian Indian Constitution especially after a bloody religiously inspired partition of 1947; a constitution that allows freedom and equality and not harshly impose the will & weight of majority; something that is otherwise against contemporary national trend/behavior in world. Greatful or not one need only be reminded of the not so fateful decline of minorities in part of India that is now Pakistan? Minorities in India should count their blessings, and be thankful.

Rakesh wrote:
India belongs as much to the minority as it does to the majority. However certain elements in the minority have not done anything remotely close to living in peace & harmony and thus the sentiments of the majority can be clearly understood and felt. But one cannot blame an entire community for that. The minority too has contributed to the development of India.


Rakesh wrote:
My faith in Christianity does not dilute the love for my country. But allow us to help you. The minority in India too has shed blood their country. Does that not count for anything?


Couldn't but fully agree.


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