Bharat Rakshak

Just in case, welcome to Hell.

a troll like TSJ can be slow, so I will do it slowly

Pot calling the kettle black. It seems to me you have been doing more than your fair share of trolling and put downs.

Hi Shiv,
thank you for these.
Samuel

in light of such doubt, say 1 million Mary Poppins ...

don't give up hope ... it is akin to giving up faith ...

Air Heaven may be upgrading to super jumbos and a standy seat may just pop up for the poppins ...

So all the stuff you learnt about Penzias came from Readers Digest?
Does Readers Digest also have mention of folks like Carl Sagan and Stephen Hawkings? Please do read them and find about what they think about the Universe.

a "put down" is different from a "lie" ... you have been lying in your trolling ...

considering that you show no contrition for your sin, you have earned an upgrade to 1 billion Poppins ...

Hot and stuffy!

TSJ, what is there in heaven that attracts you ?? When I asked this question to somebody, he told me that in heaven one could sleep in the lap of Ibrahim Nabi. I ask you, who wants to sleep in the lap of an old man ??

Rekha, Sridevi, Gina Lollobrigida, Marilyn Monroe are the ones in whose lap we want to sleep in, and they shall all be in hell. Gee...what a no-brainer ?

let's not have such racist remarks either ...

the correct phrase is "toilet calling the sink white" ...

Are you an agnostic hindu?

Brief!!!! Before you argue anymore, please go down and visit all of Ashoka's writings [atleast]. And figure it out yourself how "brief" they are! Till that time pointing out to you about those historical records will be like the classic case of bringing the donkey to the well but cannot make the donkey drink the water.

You are on a limb when you are asserting that creative thought was given primacy over documentation of the mundane. Even now in present day world, there is *no* documentation of the mundane.



What makes you so sure that they were not a jaundiced view of an outsider commenting? Megasthenes classically said that Indians know nothing of writing!



It might not be off topic. Learning Hindu culture may be a path to understanding the Hindu religion. Questions have been raised time and again that what constitutes Hindu religion. And lot of Hindu religious thought [SD] has been intertwined with the custom and cultural practices that makes it difficult.

If you are relying on outsiders to provide you an account and turning blind - nay almost macaulyte - when viewing the internal resouces - you are going to go astray!

monistic

Calvin, The fallacy of logic in your statement is, as if the victim would not have delivered the child, if not for a rape.

Translation a liberal democratic India may not have happenned were it not for the invasions by Arabs/Persians/Turks/West.

Just like the raped woman, who was always capable of bearing the child, an India under SD was always capable of most of the desired end results of a modern liberal democracy. The experience of the invasions was entirely avoidable.

Monism

1. Philosophy. a. (in metaphysics) any of various theories holding that there is only one basic substance or principle as the ground of reality, or that reality consists of a single element. Compare dualism (def. 2), pluralism (def. 1a).
b. (in epistemology) a theory that the object and datum of cognition are identical. Compare pluralism (def. 1b).

2. the reduction of all processes, structures, concepts, etc., to a single governing principle; the theoretical explanation of everything in terms of one principle.
3. the conception that there is one causal factor in history; the notion of a single element as primary determinant of behavior, social action, or institutional relations.

So you are an agnostic in profession of belief but you subscribe to monistic hinduism? Tell me, which side of the bed did you get up from today?

Or maybe from all of this discussion you have arrived at monism? Or is this just any port in a storm?

Bidet calling the crapper "stained".

TSJ, why heaven ?

no, I am monistic in every sphere of life ...

you were badgering for a one word "ism" or "ic" characterization so I had said "agnostic" not being aware of the word "monistic" ... having learned the existence of that word, I am quite happy to be labelled "monistic" ...

the english language is not completely useless for understanding Hindu Thought, but it has severe limitations in its vocabulary ...

However, I can understand the circumstances ... the language doesn't need to be very complex if all it has to do is service beliefs in dudes on clouds or enable travel agencies booking one-way tickets to Hawaii/Heaven ...

I would like to point out (although I am certainly no great practitioner of it) sex can get somewhat jaded considering some of the games that people play. At times, it can cause great anguish.

What attraction does heaven have for me? Daddy. Like a child to his poppa. Bliss.

We have an even more beautiful scenario in India - happens only in India I guess. We have the babies (and subsequent progeny) of rapes glorifying and swearing by the rapists while denigrating the mothers who bore the children. This implies that those mothers who escaped the rape and their legitimate children and their progeny are somehow obligated to uphold the desirability of rape and glorify the rape events of the past. And then these children and progeny of rape have the gall to state they are on the side of the other children and be offended when their claims are taken as suspect.

Thank You Raju.

India is better off today with the multi-ethinic religions that it has. Take a look at the basket case Pakistan has become, as a direct result of the path it took in 1947. Now compare that with India. There is no comparison.

I am by no means condoning the millions of Hindu lives that were brutally masaccered by Muslims and Xtians alike. But I am glad they came to India for the culture it brought. I shudder to think what India would be like without rogan ghosh , Indo-Islamic architecture, the varied languages that are spoken in the country, the list is endless. Hinduism has a rich & varied culture and any EJ who says otherwise only display their limited knowledge. But other religions also have their culture - while not arguably close to Hinduism - it is still culture nonetheless and is a part of Indian culture. From what I have read & understood in the past nine threads, is that Hindus are tolerant of all religions. Alas the same cannot be said of Christianity or Islam and that is not a trump card for either of them. Especially when it says in the Bible, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14, KJV.

Secondly, you have anti-nationals within the Indian Christian community who support EJ activities in India. That is not condonable and they should be tarred, feathered and hung to dry just like their counterparts from other religions do.

Thirdly, no minority in India is obligated to the majority for its existence. India belongs as much to the minority as it does to the majority. However certain elements in the minority have not done anything remotely close to living in peace & harmony and thus the sentiments of the majority can be clearly understood and felt. But one cannot blame an entire community for that. The minority too has contributed to the development of India.

Did you tell Arno Penzias that everything he has done was already done 3,000 years ago and was in the vedic scriptures?


You sure you ain't no Hindu?

On so called Islamic architecture, I do not know, how much of it is a measured and knowledgeable assertion or just plain old history from Indian school text books, highly engineered by Marxist and Secular historians.

I just wish Roghan ghosh would have come to India the way Chinese food did or the way the universal kid meal - Pizza or Burgers are coming.

The language example is really laughable, the last thing India needed was an infusion of more languages.

Well that is a weak argument to say that without multi-ethnic religions India would have become like pakistan. I would turn around your statement and say that because of the invasion of other faiths a portion of the Indian subcontinent has beome pakistan and become a basket case.

Keeping in perspective, to what has been happening [ie. one individual interpreting what the other postors response "would/could" be , for whatever reasons] , I will take this one time exception and post what TSJ woulda/coulda written in respose to the above [ie. if the above post wasn't from him].

Rakesh, I'm afraid that now the Bengalis will take offence.

Advise given by a friend from Punjab: In that case, if you really want to be ready for all possibilities, make sure to learn to speak Punjabi.. (Lingua franca of Paki Jabi's) )

But Rakeshbabu, have you thought about how would India be without the cultural destruction that took place under Islamic and xtian rule? I very much doubt that it is your belief that "although the enormous destruction of Indic culture and thousands of temples was horrendous, I am glad the mosques and churches were built in their place for the diversity they brought."

Also, how do you react to indications that a lot of xtian thought can actually be sourced to pre-existing pagan philosophies, and by extension to Hindu philosophy as well?

I would draw an analogy with a software company that lifts open-source code, packages it and tries to get an exclusive patent on it to top it all.

PS: The John Gill archive link you had given me ages ago is still in my bookmarks. Not had the time yet to go through it yet

PPS: As I write this, I am actually listening to Raga Puriya by Ustad Vilayat Khan.

Saumitra & Prahaar: You both make very good points countering my argument about Easter. I was wrong. I stand corrected. I did not consider that view.



They were my ancestors too! I guess because that I am an Indian Christian, I have no claim to my ancestors. Only you guys can claim ancestorship because you are still Hindu? Should I be angry at every Portuguese out there whose ancestors single handedly destroyed all written documentation (& thus evidence) of Christianity in India because they wanted Catholicsm to be predominant?



So now it is the fault of every Muslim currently living in India & Pakistan, that the Islamic hordes came? Why are you so hell bent on the past? It is done with. You can't change it and lose the hatred.

My attitude towards Bharat is protect its constitution and not to protect the majority or the minorty. I am not obligated to you for anything.



Good point. It is my understanding that Islam came to India with the arrival of Babur. I could be wrong on this point and I will stand corrected. But I am highlighting the fact that Islam came to India. That is all.



Phew! Thanks. That is the last charge I need! I truly mean that and I am not being sarcastic



I don't find it curious. I consider it as a matter of great pride that India has so much diversity and acceptance of different views. And I am thankful to the Hindu community for that and more importantly to the constitution of India that grants me that freedom.



Thank You



I think you did indeed misread what I stated. If you are still confused, please do ask me to further clarify.



Neither am I denying the rape and neither am I condemning the baby. I think many in this forum are condemning the rape and the baby.

This is funny. TSJones sees that everybody whose argument is opposed to the main line of thinking here is a friend of his and his thoughts. He does not know how Indians debate even inside India.

Tilak, why don't you stick to something you know like googling statistics concerning nominal Christians and their disbelief in evolution. Other than that, you have contributed *zero* to the understanding of religion on these past 10 threads.

Disha, it seems like you find it rather easy to call people names (via cutesy phrases) but before you do that, you would do well to read my original post clearly. It would equally easy for me to call you a clod- for reasons listed below, but I will desist for now.

My original post was about Indian documentation of Indian social custom and history. You brought up Mahabharata, Ramayana etc. I have read the two, and I agreed one can extrapolate Hindu custom from there, but that was not the point of my original post- which you still failed to get.

It was that there are few to no commentaries that are specifically about the Indian social situation and history, where one does not have to determine where fiction ends and fact begins, or was the passage meant literally or metaphorically . From the examples you gave, (Mahabharata, Ramayana) one can to extract some detail, but their primary purpose is not an exposition of class structure and interaction in those times. One can extrapolate, but that is the problem: one has to separate fact from fiction and extrapolate. Why is this so difficult to understand? There are tons of poetry of all forms: romantic, devotional, erotic etc. What I asked about was works that focussed primarily on the social conditions/structures and history (I even mentioned Kalhana's work on Kashmir as a point of reference).

In interests of being brief, I used the word 'mundane' to descibe social structures (class, interaction, behaviour etc.), of this, there are tons of works now.
Ah! so you finally get it??! This is precisely the reason for my original post. Please do both of us a favor and go read my first post you responded to (I wrote it in response to Shaurya's post). He posted a longish post where most of the sources were Megasthenes, Chachnama, Al Biruni and finally Manusmriti. With 3 or 4 sources being foreign in source, I had asked about the existence of Indian equivalents. I even mentioned the time-range of interest 500 B.C to pre-British. The implicit point being (if you still did not get it) that if we Indians have to rely on foreigners to narrate our social customers/heirarchy, there is the potential for bias.

My friend, this was the SOLE reason for my original post. Thank you for finally understanding it.

"toilet calling the sink white"

Apologies Alok..

Yes, would admins do us a favor and tell him to go and play on some other thread, since he clearly lacks the intellectual maturity and conceptual understanding to post on this one.

I forgot to mention that on the map issue, where India is shown as a multi-religion nation is indeed correct. The constitution of India says that it is a socialist & secular republic and thus the map is correct. To classify it as a Hindu nation is wrong, because that is not what the constitution says.

*CHANGE* the constitution and only then is the map wrong.



So Hindus are the only ones that contributed anything that is architecturally significant to India?



Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.



Oops!



I would be Hindu. That is how I think of it.



That is not my belief, although I am afraid that is the way it came out. Were the Islamic hordes bad in the fact that they killed millions of Hindus? Yes. Should we blame all the Muslims in India currently, for what their ancestors did? No. Should we start destroying their mosques, for what their ancestors did to your temples? No. Should we start erasing their culture, for what their ancestors did? No. That is what I am saying.

Let us assume (this is *really* stretching it) that you have a Muslim friend whom you figured out, through whatever means, that one of his ancestors raped one of your ancestors? Is that your Muslim friend's fault? All I am saying is condemn the rape, but don't condemn the baby. For that baby is yours, as much as it is mine.



I don't react at all. People have been bashing Christianity ever since it came out. Oh well!



That is a good link! Enjoy!
http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/ ... rchive.htm



Sorry, but what is the Raga Puriya?

There would have been a cross cultural exchanges no matter what in the long run. Hindus have just started the process of healing and reconciliation after centuries and do not want another round of mental colonization and mental/physical violence.

Well said. I will be the first one to sign a petition or stand in a picket line (or whatever else needs to be done) to prevent another round of mental colonization and mental/physical violence. Indian Christians and Muslims are on your side. Stop feeling that the burden of protecting India and her culture is for Hindus to do alone. I am just as much of an Indian as you. My faith in Christianity does not dilute the love for my country. But allow us to help you. The minority in India too has shed blood their country. Does that not count for anything?

I wouldn't put it that way ... Islamists are responsible for destroying existing architecture in India ...

for a lot of Hindus, the so called "monuments" are reminders of the loss ... rather than evoke pride, these structures induce gloom ...

btw, is it true that christians also indulged in such destruction?

if true, the behaviour of those espousing "love" and "peace" is well below human decency and nothing short of barbaric ...

how can anyone "forget" this and move on?

would you advise jews on forgetting the holocaust and moving on?

should residents of Hiroshima just forget it all and move on?

I reailize that those may not be your words but someone else interpretting your post to have contained that message ... am too lazy to scroll back, past all the TSJ tamasha, and locate that post ...

Acharya, Is this not very same thing which Ejs insist upon doing to us?

Since you are Canadian - you should object to Canada being depcited as a Christian country in the map, since its multi-religious or the US being depicted as a Christian country as its also multi-religious....

If these other countries *CHANGE* (your emphasis) their constitutions, then perhaps the map would be right.

You are wrong, you know it - and are hiding behind your initial comments which support that the only Hindu majority country in the world was not depicted correctly in the map - which was showing the majority religions of each country - NOT WHAT THEIR CONSTITUTION SAYS....

But unfortunately it appears that it is too much to expect such honesty, the objective of Christians (and Muslims) - by your own admission - is to see their tribe grow... so damn the truth when it suits these foreign agendas

Makes me wonder if India's national motto "Satyameva Jayate" - the Truth Shall Prevail - is really compatible with such foreign machinations...

this is the result of a siege-mentality. Hindus believed in 'Kalyug' were their fortunes would be at the lowest and the Tartar/Mogul hordes heralded the arrival of the worst phase of Kalyug.

the hordes were akin to a wild groundhog in an elite, upmarket shop selling fine china but which was going through a bad patch in a part of town that was decaying rapidly.