Indian Education System

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 24 Dec 2009 14:51

X post from Nukkad

Marut wrote:Just back from watching '3 Idiots'. Must say it is a well made movie with very good theme - rote learning vs gaining knowledge in our colleges. It had some cliched scenes and some predictable moments but overall 'Aall ij well'! For all you KK hater...err I mean lovers, better keep your scotch or single malt handy

Maybe some of our mullahs, abduls, bredators, motorhams and mujahids in the Indian education dhaaga should take a break (timeplease!) and watch it too.

PS: I heard the two words we used a lot in college but never heard it again till today - bal@@tkaar & saamuhik bal@@tkaar oh man the college days how I miss thee

PPS: before I forget, INDIA WILL LOSE ONLEE

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Dec 2009 21:15

well the IITs do have term projects for groups of 3-4 students in most of the 400 and 600 level courses. the problem is defined however. people do just enough to get good grades.
generally 1-2 of the 3-4 people do the work, while rest slink around and lend moral support, "gather" code/resources from others and so on.

maybe 50% of credit should be allocated to a couple of term projects in each course, 25% to mid sem, 10% to their project report(teaches good writing - a vital skill in science) and 15% to the vaunted end-sem.

also make it compulsory to take a certain number of inter disciplinary courses.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Dec 2009 22:26

They should have 1 project in their 3rd year where project is not defined - heck, let it be a year long project where student has to conceptualize, design, develop and pitch their creation as a sell. Otherwise if we go by Mehta ji's license-raj era mentality of "labour pool", we will be stuck in the back office. The best innovator is not necessarily the best student (if one goes by the definition that the best student is one who aces all his/her exams and knows his/her books inside out). In massa, ppl. have the luxury to drop out of college and start successful companies but in India regardless of talent one is still expected to have some quality education pedigree to get noticed in the noise hence, such teaching methods need to be inculcated into the curriculum of our top engg. schools.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 25 Dec 2009 01:14

Singha wrote:well the IITs do have term projects for groups of 3-4 students in most of the 400 and 600 level courses.

What works for the US will not necessarily work in India. Students here in the US start doing such projects from late elementary school (5th-6th std) onwards and continue in that vein till the 12th grade. Now most Indian students spend these years gearing up for the entrance exams, solely focused on marks. Therefore, undergrad schools should make a special effort to systematically teach innovation skills. Having one term project at the fag end of the degree course is not sufficient given what students spend their time on prior to entering college.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 25 Dec 2009 07:19

Where nursery schools charge more than IITs
http://beta.thehindu.com/education/article69193.ece

FOCUS: TIFR IN BHABHA CENTENARY YEAR
A base for progress

With its diverse schools, specialised centres and field stations across the country, the TIFR is one of India’s finest research institutions.
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/stories/2 ... 610600.htm

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 27 Dec 2009 21:23

Brazil and India Join the Top Ranks of Governments Supporting Research

Brazil and India are now among the top five government supporters of research into third-world diseases, according to a study issued last week, which found that middle-income nations are taking on more of the burden of ills afflicting their poorest citizens.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/healt ... ef=science

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 28 Dec 2009 10:20

India education: Engineering going off the rails?

India's bid for full membership in the Washington Accord — an elite international association to standardize engineering education — was declined last month over concerns about faculty members and students in Indian engineering programs. Members were concerned about the effects of India's extensive quota system, said Raman Unnikrishnan, dean of the College of Engineering and Computer Science at California State University at Fullerton and one of two mentors assigned by the group to India during the review process.

In that system, many slots for faculty and students are set aside for those from economically and socially disadvantaged castes or classes. Unnikrishnan said members felt the set-asides would dilute the quality of faculty and the student body.

Unnikrishnan said the problem "is much more convoluted than just the quota system," in a telephone interview in November.

"After graduation, students get accepted in graduate programs, at which time again the quota system is applied, accommodating lower levels of quality students for admission," he said. "And in application for faculty positions, the quota system is again applied.

"Instead of continuous improvement, it is continuous slippage."

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 28 Dec 2009 11:42

And guess what, as of 2009 "Board of Engineers, Malaysia (Malaysia; 2009)" is a signatory of the washington accord. How come bhumi-putra policy is not == with social-backwardness based reservation scheme? Someone needs to explain me how South Africa deserves a place, and that too from 1999 and up?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Accord

negi · Post by **negi** » 28 Dec 2009 12:07

Come to think of it even Engg. powerhouses like Ru and Ger are not in .

I mean how seriously is this "Washinton accord" taken ?

negi · Post by **negi** » 02 Jan 2010 01:07

1 in 3 professor posts in IITs vacant (TOI)

They are regarded globally as centres of excellence and considered to be India's ticket to making it big in the industrial and entrepreneurial world. So it is shocking that the nine centrally funded technical institutions (collectively called CFTIs), which include the prestigious IITs and IIMs, are currently short of more than 3,000 faculty members or about one-third of the sanctioned strength.

The statistics, sourced from the Union HRD ministry, point to a rather grim situation. For instance, one-third of the teaching posts at the IITs and National Institutes of Technology (NITs) are lying vacant. The premier Indian Institute of Science (IISc) at Bangalore does not have even half the teachers it needs; ditto for the three Schools of Planning and Architecture (SPAs). In fact, all the CFTIs—whether it is the lone Indian School of Mines (ISM) at Dhanbad or the NITs dotted across the country—are currently functioning without the requisite number of teachers.

I believe there is a difference between 'sanctioned' strength and minimum required strength of teachers , imho former is always higher than the latter , the part about IISc sounds unbelievable.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 02 Jan 2010 01:41

Mahendra wrote:Rama Y ji

Your scheme is not financially viable

You are wrong Mahendra ji, unless I missed some zeros.

Attached business plan can be used to moderate the Medical Graduate output without impacting the Hospital services.

Hospital

Capital Costs:

Building a 100,000 Sq. Ft Hospital costs Rs. 10 Crores. Hospital Equipment Cost is estimated at another Rs 10 Crores. Here I presume to use the latest IT enabled equipment. (One can buy many pocket size medical equipment for Rs 10,000 or less)

Total capital costs for a 200 bed hospital is 20 Crores. The monthly EMI would be around Rs 16 Lakhs @8% interest rate over 20 years.

Revenue Landscape:

Assuming that 50% of population is rural and we are looking at establishing 500 new medical colleges (I like the idea of 1 college per parliament constituency) with an annual output of 500 doctors. This will add nearly 200,000 doctors to national pool starting from year 6.

Coverage area per hospital = 1.116 billion x 50% / 500 hospitals = 11 Lakh people per hospital.

Assuming 25% of population is eligible for Arogya Shree scheme (below poverty line) = 279,000 people per hospital. Assuming 1 free visit per year costing Rs 100 per visit, the annual income from outpatient visits would be 2.8 crores. Assuming 1% of 279,000 people require specialty treatment with 25,000 average cost per incident, the hospital would receive another (2790 x 25000 = 6,97,50,000) 6.9 crore income.

The total Monthly income from Arogya Shree alone will be Rs 81 Lakhs.

Note: This calculation doesn’t include the 75% of the population who will use the hospital facilities at their own expense.

Operating Costs:

Staffing: Each hospital will employ at least 30 doctors and 120 supporting staff (nurses, compounders, other supporting staff). The doctor is paid Rs 50,000 per month and the average salary for the supporting staff is estimated to be Rs 15,000 per month. The total monthly salary expense is Rs 33 Lakhs

Utilities: Average monthly utility bill (Power, Water, Technology, Waste Management) is expected to be Rs 10 Lakhs.

Total monthly operating costs = EMI 16 L + Salaries 33 L + 10 L = 59 Lakhs

P.S: Please note that this works out to be 33% as the ratio between Claims/Total health-insurance revenues at Rs 1200 per head per year as I presented in my Annual Budget Projections in Indian Interests thread.

Medical College

Income Model

Total seats = 500
Local Quota = 60% = 300 seats @ Rs. 96,000 annual fee = 2.9 crores
Out of state quota = 20% = 100 seats @ Rs. 2,00,000 annual fee = 2 Crores
Management quota = 20% = 100 seats @ Rs 10,00,000 annual fee = 10 Crores

Total annual income = 14.88 crores

Operating Costs

Salaries = 30 Professors x 12,00,000 annual salary (could double as doctors in the hospital) = 3.6 crores
Staff = 100 x 2,40,000 annual salary = 2.4 crores
Maintenance fees = 1.2 crores
EMI = 2 crores
Boarding expenses = 500 x 12 x 4000 = 2.4 crores

Total annual expenses = 3.6 + 2.4 + 1.2 + 2 + 2.4 = 11.6 crores.

Note: In reality there will be ~ 500 x 6 = 3000 active students at any given time. I am using this to provide the average annual costs and profits.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 03 Jan 2010 22:16

^^^

you may want to fit this outlier (300 crores) in your model for a semi urban medical institution,

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 407439.cms

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 04 Jan 2010 00:55

vasu_ray wrote:^^^

you may want to fit this outlier (300 crores) in your model for a semi urban medical institution,

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 407439.cms

I will do that. But that article talks about AIIMS type setup. I do not know if we can achieve that level institutions at mass-quantity (500 of them). That is why my estimate was low. A 300 crore investment would require 2.4 crore/month mortgage payment = ~30 crore annual payment over 20 years. If we are talking about 200 student intake for 6 year programs = 1200 "active" students, it will not be fianancially viable unless the institutions are given financial AID.

A possible source of additional income could be for Govt pay ~1200 annual payment per BPL citizen in the coverage area. It will bring nearly 3 fold increase in hospital revenues (~18-20 crore additional revenue per year)

I was thinking about putting my model (basically a spreadsheet) in google docs and make it available for other BRFite-edits.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 04 Jan 2010 01:46

I don't know when they talk about AIIMS they are supposed to be spearheading research, path breaking medical treatments or super specialties that makes them expensive

(specialties evolve overtime and cannot be carbon copied, each such institution can take a different direction)

back to finances, what about Apollo, Kamineni, Wockhardt etc., even from a black box perspective they are worth more than 20 crores with no attached medical college and then the 'grease' money for govt.? reminds me of a Rajinikanth movie on a similar theme and the budget bandied was between 200-400 crores

not to mention there are so many Indian origin US docs who easily surpass that 5 million budget the model lays out, yet the wind isn't really blowing in that direction, and when Sankara Netralaya was being built, a lot of its budget was based on donation money.

Its a good idea to put that model up for review and the link in a static section of the forum

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 04 Jan 2010 03:05

India education: Engineering going off the rails?
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/indi ... -engineers

Quality check is needed very much. Indepedent bodies to provide ranking system and if the ranks go below 50 then they should not be given any affliation.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jan 2010 00:41

PM's address in Bengaluru.

Ills of Indian Science

Inaugurating the 97th edition of the Indian Science Congress, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh did some plain speaking: the organisation of Indian science is fossilised and bureaucratic, it smothers innovation, lacks relevance to India’s development needs, has poor links to industry and the blame for all this lies with those at the helm of affairs in our university departments and research institutions.

Of course, the PM used far more diplomatic language. He went on to stress the global opportunities that Indian science has, in areas such as climate change mitigation and adaptation. He also hoped to attract talented Indians working in laboratories abroad to Indian research outfits, at least for short stints. All this is appropriate.

But the point is, how will things change, and change for the better? Mere exhortation will not do. The change required is far reaching - a great many things hamper science in this country, ranging from the general culture, the school syllabus and the division of teaching and research between universities and specialised research organisations to overall lack of democratic values in society.

Indian culture traditionally assumed knowledge to be finite (the original Sankaracharya was even vested with the title sarvagnya, or one who knows everything), and a student is expected to master received wisdom rather than constantly test and challenge concepts. Curiosity is discouraged in the name of respect for authority. This kills innovation and new thinking. Schools imbibed the philosophy of Macaulay’s minute on education and continues with the mission of producing clerks.

Universities are training grounds, rather than incubators of intellectual curiosity. Research is supposed to take place in specialised, mostly state-funded, research outfits, but these are run on bureaucratic lines that stifle dissent, intellectual or otherwise. What offers hope is that some in India still manage to do good science, beating all these odds.

The powerlessness of Ruchika Girhotra and her family against those who wield state power replicates itself in most settings, including the organisation of science in India. Ultimately, this has to change for Indian science to unleash creativity on the scale of its full potential.

One can start with those orgs under the PMO's direct control.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Jan 2010 21:02

I cannot access google-bhayya from office. So uploading the images for the timebeing. Please feel free to provide feedback.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Jan 2010 21:06

Hospital:

While I like RM-ji's R2R legislation, I think public-private partnership is the best approach to some of Indian problems. This will create competition and efficiency.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Jan 2010 21:07

Contd...

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 06 Jan 2010 17:42

vina, Bade, ^3, ramana, rangudu, Nandu et al, the new alum webpage that may interest you folks...
http://iitmaa.org/

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 06 Jan 2010 23:16

Some what related, from WP:
White House announces $250M effort for science and math teachers

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 07 Jan 2010 22:41

How India can get the best researchers
http://business.rediff.com/column/2010/ ... rchers.htm

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Jan 2010 23:37

Stanford Business School Selects First Reliance Dhirubhai Fellows to Receive Full Financial Support for MBA Study
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site ... ewsLang=en

Looking at the bios of the winners...is this an attempt to try and change what a typical Yum Bee Aye grad does? or is it something else?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jan 2010 10:04

nothing new. khan has always specialized in giving schols and aid to future influential 'leaders' of third world nations and exercising soft power via shaping their mindset.

in the past it was the kids of the political and bureaucratic elites. now with increasing 'democratization' they will pick whoever bubbles to the top.

note that most of these people have displayed a organizational flair to start initiatives on their own. such kind of people exercise influence over others, rather more than a individual contributor type.

khan wants the managers

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 Jan 2010 01:39

IIT-K bars 38 students from semester exams

KANPUR: To discourage absenteeism and to instill a sense of discipline among students
, the Indian Institute of Technology-Kanpur has decided to bar 38 students from appearing in next semester exams.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 09 Jan 2010 01:54

What is so new in the report? "W" grades are issued for lack of attendance regularly in M, every hostel sees 1 or 2 cases each year regularly and at least 10 or so are warned, now they see a bigger number perhaps. I myself escaped from a W in my early days where I attended another prof's class instead of who was assigned to my batch with a begging, coaxing and straightforward lying on the face. Even ToI's sensationalism is not new.

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 Jan 2010 02:09

I know , seems students in IITK are indeed disciplined '38' is too low a number .

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 09 Jan 2010 02:41

ramana wrote:PM's address in Bengaluru.

Ills of Indian Science

Inaugurating the 97th edition of the Indian Science Congress, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh did some plain speaking: the organisation of Indian science is fossilised and bureaucratic, it smothers innovation, lacks relevance to India’s development needs, has poor links to industry and the blame for all this lies with those at the helm of affairs in our university departments and research institutions.

One can start with those orgs under the PMO's direct control.

Correction: it was in Thiruvananthapuram and public lapped up the open exhibition and sessions.

Here are some pics of the proceedings by user AjithV at SSC forum. Very interesting people all round. My only quibble is with those bathrobes. Why cant they give out a kickass Mysore Peta?

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 09 Jan 2010 03:11

RIL to start a world class university in India:
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ia/382167/

Masaru · Post by **Masaru** » 11 Jan 2010 05:37

India’s labs waking up, surge in global science papers

As per the report, Chemistry and Pharmacology are fast becoming the most “published” disciplines in India; USA remains its largest research partner even as South Korea is racing ahead of China to partner with India. And Japan’s University of Tokyo collaborates most frequently with Indian researchers.

If the current trajectory continues, the study estimates, India’s productivity would well be on par with that of most G-8 nations within eight years and could even overtake them between 2015-2020.

As far as collaboration is concerned, USA remains the biggest international research partner for India right from 1999-2003 until 2004-08 with as many as 10,728 papers published in partnership in the latter phase.

While Germany, UK and Japan follow through, it’s South Korea that has raced ahead, quadrupling its collaborative papers with India — from 558 in 1999-2003 to 2,074 in 2004-08. Collaborations from China have risen from 674 to 1,665 in the same period.

University of Tokyo and the University of Texas collaborate most frequently with India followed by Japan’s Tohoku University and France’s Centre National de la Recherché Scientifique. South Korea’s Korea University and China’s Chinese Academy of Sciences follow next.

One “intriguing outcome” of the analysis, the report says, is that India is looking “east” for its collaborative research.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 11 Jan 2010 20:09

a perspective

http://churumuri.wordpress.com/2010/01/ ... an-100000/

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 14 Jan 2010 18:18

U.S. universities say no to setting up Indian campuses
http://www.siliconindia.com/shownews/US ... 64569.html

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 14 Jan 2010 23:17

If the Universities do not want to set up shop, I wonder what is the hitch in encouraging Indian colleges to poach faculty from these American universities? Private sector salaries in India are high enough to attract interest in these times.

negi · Post by **negi** » 15 Jan 2010 09:10

Kendriya Vidyalayas set weight limits on schoolbags

negi · Post by **negi** » 16 Jan 2010 01:59

Sibal is playing with fire

Hindi should be taught in all schools: Sibal

Once other contentious issues settle down I am sure any extra pressure or arm twisting from center on this gimmick will lead to another ruckus.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 16 Jan 2010 02:17

Well Sibalsaab needs to change the Constitution for that, will he ask his coalition partner in TN to help him vote on this issue?

It is not just some Congresswaalas who wont learn from history and realize why they have been shunted outta TN for so long, even the other nationalist parties wont learn from others' mistakes. Onwards...

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 16 Jan 2010 15:11

stan, i know you dont approve, but to me this such a validation. JNU profs oppose reservation for faculty positions.

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?263782

the amount of havoc they play with peoples minds and life and the amount of moral righteousness they usurp for themselves, their own theory is not good enough in their own backyard. if there is any field of academic study where there is a uber strong case for making space for underrepresented groups or for creating a diverse pot it is the non-sciences. i'm not doubting the rigour on inttelect involved in doing stellar work in fields like humanities, but at the end of the day non-sciences are based on subjectives only some of which are irrefutably and objectively measured. in such fields, universities must take extra pain to find and employ under representated groups.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 16 Jan 2010 15:38

A Decade Of Hope
Education and Equality are central to India's future because they not only define the content of our power; they are also the instruments to achieve it.
Pratap Bhanu Mehta

The coming decade is most likely to be a pivotal one in India's history. In the obsession with day to day politics and struggles, we sometimes forget the far reaching structural changes that are happening right before our eyes. The most important of these changes is the extraordinary unleashing of aspiration we are witnessing in Indian society. This aspiration is not just a feature of the privileged. But for the first time in modern Indian history, even the poor and marginalized are beginning to sense the possibility of change. India's record in combating poverty - no matter which statistics you use - leaves much to be desired. While the Indian state has been promising emancipation to poor since, independence, it is only in the last couple of decades that the poor are beginning to sense some change. The expansion of aspiration can be seen many different ways. The demand for education, particularly English, education even amongst poor Dalits, is a testament to this expansion. Two decades ago we used to debate whether there is a demand for education; now the only debate is whether we can supply it.

The expansion of aspiration is accompanied by another remarkable fact. India is one of the youngest countries in the world. This is both an asset and a challenge. It is an asset because a potential demographic dividend is in India's favour. If properly educated and harnessed, the supply of a talented labour force could propel India to great heights. On the other hand, if the education system does not meet this growing demand, India could face a potential social catastrophe. Societies are most vulnerable to social convulsion, not when they are poor, but when they are unable to manage the expectations of change. As policy makers we can have complicated arguments over all the things India needs to do to achieve its full potential. But the truth is simple: education, education, education. This is not the occasion to go into a detailed discussion of kind of education Indians will require. The challenge for Indian education will be to cater to different kinds of needs: basic skills that can allow millions of Indians to make the transition from agriculture to non agricultural employment; skills that enhance the average quality of our workforce; skills that produce innovation at all levels, but also skills that scale the highest peaks of knowledge.

The language of power is always fraught with difficulty. But if there will be any true measure of India's power it will be this: Can India move from being a consumer of knowledge to being a producer of knowledge?

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 16 Jan 2010 21:25

shaardula wrote:stan, i know you dont approve, but to me this such a validation.

Boss, I have swung from one extreme to the other and come to a point that people will always be people. Dishonesty and moral turpitude are par for the course with people, whether they are in stratospheric heights of intellectual achievement or just looking for a loophole to plug their boomboxes in so as to get better in life. In short, I am a major cynic when someone says he is batting for others. Given this, I will watch the debate on reservation per se, without having to impose my views on this matter as they dont really matter

.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 16 Jan 2010 21:37

^^^

IMO, the reservations sytem will lose its adverse impact as the number of opportunities grow in a given scenario.

A 50% reservation in a 100,000 capacity system is lot better than a 30% reservation in a 2,000 capacity. One could see this difference in Engg. education, especially in states like Andhra Pradesh.

But I am against reservations, in principle, in elite education systems such as IIT/IISC/IIM/IIMS etc., There is no way India can develop more than 5-10 premier institutes in a given field and reservations in those institutions will bringdown the national R&D quality and output.

Even US couldn't develop more than a couple of MIT type institutions. It is a different thing that an average american tech institute have better facilities than a premier Indian institute.

JMT/