Indian Police Reform

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 23 Oct 2009 19:02

sinha wrote:Does any forum member know whether any of the 7 cities have actually implemented any CCTV/Video surveillance

Bangalore City Police have been using the Video cameras extensively for Traffic management (and enforcement at times). They have placed Dome cameras in very many busy junctions, which are connected to a control room at Ashok Nagar P.S. The policemen can view the videos and also control the traffic signals from there.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 22 Nov 2009 21:50

I have been doing some research and have learned that at some point - probably in the 1970s - India procured a substantial number of Ruger Service-Six revolvers in 0.38-200 cal. for its police forces. Does anyone have more information ?

In addition, has anyone seen Mumbai policemen with 0.45cal Colt M1911A1 pistols ?

Suyogv · Post by **Suyogv** » 23 Nov 2009 09:56

Sanjay wrote:I have been doing some research and have learned that at some point - probably in the 1970s - India procured a substantial number of Ruger Service-Six revolvers in 0.38-200 cal. for its police forces. Does anyone have more information ?

In addition, has anyone seen Mumbai policemen with 0.45cal Colt M1911A1 pistols ?

I have seen M1911A1 with one of QRT Personal but i thought it was Galock 9mm

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 23 Nov 2009 16:26

Interesting - but was it a Colt or was it a Glock ? The Glock seems to have been imported in some numbers.

India seems to have a number of revolver types in police service - Webley 0.38 and some older 0.455, Enfield 0.38, the Service-Six mentioned above and the Titan Tiger.

Suyogv · Post by **Suyogv** » 24 Nov 2009 20:28

I have seen Glock 9mm and colt also. Before 26/11 I have seen mostly revolvers (made by OF of India) but After 26/11 number of Pistol in Mumbai Police has been increased drastically

Sanjay wrote:Interesting - but was it a Colt or was it a Glock ? The Glock seems to have been imported in some numbers.

India seems to have a number of revolver types in police service - Webley 0.38 and some older 0.455, Enfield 0.38, the Service-Six mentioned above and the Titan Tiger.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 24 Nov 2009 20:37

Very interesting. IOF revolvers ? Some stubby looking 0.32 revolvers ? Weird choice. Great for security guards and civilians but why not the 0.32 ACP pistol IOF makes ? That 0.32 S&W Long is a very low powered cartridge.

The police have received infusions of 9mm Brownings made by the OFB. Incidentally you may also find S&W 0.38-200 revolvers as well. Several of these were used by both the Indian Army and the Police prior to Independence. One would assume that all revolvers formerly used by the army went to the police when the IA switched to 9mm automatics.

Suyogv · Post by **Suyogv** » 25 Nov 2009 14:40

I don't why there is misconception in public that Army surplus equipments are used Police? There is no relation between Army and Police. State Home ministry brings outs tenders for Fires arms (for international arms) And directly places order to OFB for Indian arms. Never herd of Army selling its equipments

Sanjay wrote:Very interesting. IOF revolvers ? Some stubby looking 0.32 revolvers ? Weird choice. Great for security guards and civilians but why not the 0.32 ACP pistol IOF makes ? That 0.32 S&W Long is a very low powered cartridge.

The police have received infusions of 9mm Brownings made by the OFB. Incidentally you may also find S&W 0.38-200 revolvers as well. Several of these were used by both the Indian Army and the Police prior to Independence. One would assume that all revolvers formerly used by the army went to the police when the IA switched to 9mm automatics.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 25 Nov 2009 18:18

Not misperception at all. In the 1960s and 1970s where do you think most of the 0.303 Enfields the Police got came from ? In addition in the 1980s and 1990s many of the initial batches of SLRs came from the army. Yes the police most certainly do tender for arms but there is certainly some passing down of weapons.

Suyogv · Post by **Suyogv** » 25 Nov 2009 18:29

It might be in 60s-70s but as far as I know Mumbai police only got AK 47 and SLR from army. As far as I know Army arms are pass on to NCC. (My comment is only for Mumbai police/ Maharashtra police. I dont know if other stated got there arms from army)

Sanjay wrote:Not misperception at all. In the 1960s and 1970s where do you think most of the 0.303 Enfields the Police got came from ? In addition in the 1980s and 1990s many of the initial batches of SLRs came from the army. Yes the police most certainly do tender for arms but there is certainly some passing down of weapons.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 25 Nov 2009 18:43

Correct about Mumbai. UP, Bihar etc did get SLRs. Maharastra's SRPF may have got their initial batch of SLRs from the army.

As I say in the 1960s and 1970s as the army switched to 9mm pistols, those revolvers would have passed on.

Suyogv · Post by **Suyogv** » 25 Nov 2009 18:51

Yes SRPF got SLRs from Army. Presently SRPF and RAF have SLRs, and no Lee Enfields. Hopefully other should follow them

Sanjay wrote:Correct about Mumbai. UP, Bihar etc did get SLRs. Maharastra's SRPF may have got their initial batch of SLRs from the army.

As I say in the 1960s and 1970s as the army switched to 9mm pistols, those revolvers would have passed on.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 04 Dec 2009 01:00

Can add something else - in 2006-07, TN procured 140 INSAS for Districts & Units, in 2005-2006 they procured 400 12 bore pump action shotguns for all Police Stations, the armed reserve etc, 24 9mm carbines and 220 serviceable SLRs from the Assam Rifles.
http://www.tn.gov.in/gorders/home/home- ... 006-2D.htm

Suyogv · Post by **Suyogv** » 04 Dec 2009 16:23

See this Weapons and Vehicals of mumbai Police http://copconnect.in/blog/

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 04 Dec 2009 21:47

Suyogv wrote:See this Weapons and Vehicals of mumbai Police

This seems to be a blog by D. Shivanandan, the current CP, Mumbai Police.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 05 Dec 2009 01:13

Yes - nice gesture. BTW Sachin - any interesting vintage arms seen with cops lately ?

Is the std. revolver of 0.38 cal or of 0.32 cal ?

Suyogv · Post by **Suyogv** » 05 Dec 2009 12:14

Sachin wrote:
Suyogv wrote:See this Weapons and Vehicals of mumbai Police
This seems to be a blog by D. Shivanandan, the current CP, Mumbai Police.

Yep its blog of Mumbai CP. He has added pics of latest advancements by Mumbai Police

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 08 Dec 2009 01:00

Just learnt that under FMS at least 8000 M-1 Garands were supplied to India - probably for the ITBP as well as another 12k or so for the SFF.

I would expect that at least some of these are now in Police hands.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 08 Dec 2009 10:56

Sanjay wrote:BTW Sachin - any interesting vintage arms seen with cops lately ?

Nothing to report !

.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 08 Dec 2009 21:37

Sanjay wrote:Just learnt that under FMS at least 8000 M-1 Garands were supplied to India - probably for the ITBP as well as another 12k or so for the SFF.

I would expect that at least some of these are now in Police hands.

Recycled after 20 years ???

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 09 Dec 2009 00:45

No - recycled by the late 1970s or early 1980s. At least 1 was seen in the hands of the Punjab Police circa 1986.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 24 Dec 2009 10:05

If one DGP molests a 14 year old girl, I would curse him only and not everyone in IPS, Home Ministry, judocracy etc. I would take that as an isolated case. But when too many people such as school principal, fellow IPS officers, Home Secretary, Home Minister, Chief Minister, judges including SCjs etc support him, then please tell me --- who should not be insulted in public in foulest language known to mankind? And consider spineless cum shameless National Woman's Commission. They did NOT even ask for a Narco Test of Rathore in public. Nor did shameless judges, public prosecutors etc. Not even one MP, MLA demanded "Narco Test in public".

I dont want cite the details of case involving ex-DGP Rathore and Ruchika. Everyone here must be knowing most of the details and are all PhDs in Google can find more details if the want. But here are some salient points

1. When Ruchika filed complaint against Rathore, school prinicipal expelled her for not paying fee in time !!! She was a student in that school for over 8 years. My guess is that Rathore must have given some bribes to the Principal to expel her.

2. Rathore asked fellow IPS officers to file cases against Ruchika's family members. Fellow IPS officers shamelessly complied and her brother, father etc got arrested under various sections.

3. Ruchika committed suicide some 4 years later.

4. Rathore ensured, by bribing the judges or without bribing the judges, that case drag on and on and on

5. Rathore also convinced Honorable SCjs, by bribing them or otherwise, that clause of abetting suicide should be dropped.

6. Nineteen years later, lower court imposes punishment of only six months and Rathore manages to get interim bail within hours.

Now case will go before HCj, where a corrupt HCj will ensure that another 10 years go by !! Then the case will go to corrupt SCj, who will take another 20 years and may even acquit him.

Why did Rathore became so rouge? Because he knew that citizens cant expel him not matter what he does. Why did the judges acted in such a defunct way? Because the judges knew that public outrage cant hurt them. So just take bribes from ex-DGP and let him walk away. If we citizens had procedure to expel judges, judges would not have dared to act so defunctly. And if we citizens had procedures to expel DIGs, Rathore would not have become so rouge.

What is the way out? IMO, we should enact a law by which citizens can order "Narco Test in Public". Using this law, we should conduct Narco Test of ex-DIG Rathore and dig out the details. In addition to this case, we will also get details of The Narco Test is not the evidence, but will at least provide us The Truth. Next we should enact a law by which citizens, using majority voting can imprison, fine or even execute an accused. And using this law, the citizens can later decide if Rathore should be imprisoned for 10 years.

And next, to ensure that such things dont happen again, we should enact laws/procedures by which we citizens can expel DIG, judges etc.

What laws, procedures do YOU guys propose?

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 25 Dec 2009 08:38

Let's blame the damned cops for everything
Good writeup

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 02 Jan 2010 19:26

I am X-Posting from the Books thread, since this involve a bit on Mumbai police as well...

I was on the process of reading through 584 page book "Maximum city: Bombay Lost & Found", authored by Suketu Mehta. Has any one here read this book, or do you have any more information on the author?

The book covers on the various aspects of Mumbai. Its under-world, its police, its lady's bars, cinema etc. The author seems to have interviewed lots of folks involved in the underworld, including a few telephonic interviews with the Bhais[. From the police part of it, it seems the author had extensive interactions with an officer named "Ajay Lal" who seems to from the IPS cadre, and most likely in the DCP, Addl.CP level of the hierarchy. The author writes about this officer, his honesty, and his active role in the investigations during the Mumbai blasts. The book also mentions that the officer's late father was once a movie producer who lost lots of money because of the attitudes of the then super-stars. I don't know whether this officer is Rakesh Maria, or another chap, or a combination of one or more police officers the author had met.

When "Ajay Lal" and his attitudes/life style was shown with good care, the same was not shown to other "lesser mortals" like late Vijay Salaskar (API then). The author seems to have interviewed Salaskar, who was back in service just after getting acquitted in the the "Sada Pawle encounter" case. If what Suketu says, Salaskar is a person who have no pangs in killing any one, and consider gangsters as sub-humans. The general impression I could get was that the encounter specialists were trigger happy chaps, while senior "afsars" like Ajay Lal were Mr. Perfects.

Then there are the usual stuff about Justice Sri Krishna reports, about communal violence, the author's personal view on Kashmir (go for the referendum...). The author seems to be pally-pally with folks like Mahesh Bhatt etc.

Page 53 of the book, also mentions that Smt. Teesta Setalwad had recorded police wireless during the Mumbai riots. The transcripts of the communications are there on the book as well. Never knew that recording police wireless is not a crime (in India) .

cbelwal · Post by **cbelwal** » 03 Jan 2010 00:47

I think you are oversimplifying. Rathore's case has exposed the severe systematic failure of Indian democracy at all fronts. After Ruchika's father filed a complaint Rathore was indicted by the DGP, but due to protection by politicians he was saved. His wife is a lawyer who tried every trick in the book to save her husband. It is as yet unclear what role individual judges played. A judge in 2001 did ask CBI to reinstate the abbetment of suicide against Rathore and bring stronger charges but CBI failed to do anything. Rathore even had a senior CBI officer transferred.

The worst was the torture endured by her brother. No junior police officer or anyone from Haryana police came forward to stop such blatant abuse of power. Shows the power structure within Police. A detailed analogy of this case is available at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruchika_Girhotra_Case

Unfortunate fact is this case is not an exception but rather the norm. BR jingos love the Indian Police, but this has become a force corrupted beyond repair. Cases like these in tribal areas have generated sympathy for the Maoists and threaten the very notion of civilized society. If Rathore were to be eliminated by Maoists it is obvious on which side social sympathies will lie.

Rahul Mehta wrote:If one DGP molests a 14 year old girl, I would curse him only and not everyone in IPS, Home Ministry, judocracy etc. I would take that as an isolated case. But when too many people such as school principal, fellow IPS officers, Home Secretary, Home Minister, Chief Minister, judges including SCjs etc support him, then please tell me --- who should not be insulted in public in foulest language known to mankind? And consider spineless cum shameless National Woman's Commission. They did NOT even ask for a Narco Test of Rathore in public. Nor did shameless judges, public prosecutors etc. Not even one MP, MLA demanded "Narco Test in public".

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jan 2010 03:18

Instead of jailing the guy wy are they withdrawing their medal as if thats more punishment than going to jail?

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 05 Jan 2010 04:52

sounds like Ajay Lal == Rakesh Maria.

CalvinH · Post by **CalvinH** » 05 Jan 2010 08:49

ramana wrote:Instead of jailing the guy wy are they withdrawing their medal as if thats more punishment than going to jail?

I think thats one of low hanging fruits Govt is acting on. Also GoI is using this to place an ordinance which will ensure that medals can be taken back from tainted officials even if they are retired. For other punishments there is no quick solution as law/court will take its time.

I see lot of reforms being discussed on many fronts due to this case which a positive fallout.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 05 Jan 2010 11:47

In response to Ramana's original post in this thread, which was about a restructuring of the colonial structure of police services in India, the following thoughts occur to me.

1. The structure of policing in India is colonial, with an Officer-Enlisted mentality prevalent, from colonial times. This is further exacerbated by the "Imperial Officers", "Native officers", "Native non gazetted officers", and "Enlisted constables" structure of our police. Most western nations have assiduously avoided a "Officer ranks" and "Other ranks" structure in their police (as well as other civil) services, and retained it only for the military. So while there are various ranks in the US and British police, all ranks start from the bottom, viz. constable, or its equivalent in the US, viz. "Police Officer", or "Patrolman".

The IP officers became the IPS.

The Native officers became the SPS officers (State police service)

The Native NGO's are our inspectors, etc.

The Enlisted remain as they are.

The entire structure is the same, and is geared towards a top-down "command" approach to law and order policing (latthi charges, firings, crowd control).

The IPS career advancement has become a matter of routine, and number of years of service, and not a function of competence in one's work.

For example, here is the typical career of an IPS officer in cadre (State police) service:

1. DSP - On appointment
2. ASP - 4 years service (can be appointed distt. SP at this point also)
3. SP - 7-8 years service.
4. SSP - 10 years service.
5. DIG - 14 years service.
6. IGP - 18 years service
7. ADG - 24 years service
8. Special DG - 30 years service
9. DGP - 30+ years service.

Apart from getting embroiled in a major case against onesself, nothing stops an IPS officer from achieving these ranks, whether he is any good at his job, or not. Indeed, sometimes, (Like in the Ruchika Gihrotra case), one even gets away with crimes of severe moral turpitude, and still becomes DGP (Rathore was an IG when he committed the crimes he is convicted of).

This sort of "automatic" promotion, and "above the law status" does not make for competence, or diligence in one's work. Indeed, it fosters complacency, corruption, and venality.

Some points:

Career Streams

1. In most western policing systems, all policemen begin their careers as constables/beat officers/ordinary policemen. Advancement in rank is through departmental exams, and many years of service.

2. There is no inflation of ranks. Not everyone becomes a police Sergeant/Lieutenant/Captain/Chief in America, and not everyone becomes a Police Sergeant/Inspector/Chief Inspector/Superintendent/Chief Constable in England. Indeed, very few do, and they do it by dint of their competence, and proven ability. Many retire as Patrolman/Constable only. Of course, their scales of pay keep increasing with time in service, but their basic job doesnt.

3. Starting off at the bottom, in routine policing duties, is a way for the police recruit to gain an thorough understanding of what police work actually is. He becomes acquainted with neighborhood policing, and community problems. It is not unusual for a constable to spend a vast majority of his service in his own village, in england.

4. Specialization in Criminal Investigation/Local Policing/Community Relations/Forensics is encouraged. In India, this is rarely the case, and almost never the case with senior "generalist" police leadership.

Pay

4. Pay for police patrolmen/constables is of a reasonably good standard, in both the US and England. It is a civil service post, and not considered a bottom of the heap job. An average policeman post recruit training in America, makes over 36000$ per annum, going up to 65000$ in NYPD, and 90000$ in Nassau PD.

Local Control

5. Policing is localised. There is no "outsider" "Imperial Police" running the show "for the natives". Police is recruited, trained, paid and fielded by the county/town/state, as the case may be for county sherrifs/municipal police/state police forces. In India, policemen can be transferred from district to district, IPS can move from being policemen in the state to being spies, to educators, to Paramilitary commanders, to heads of corporations, to heads of education boards, to heads of publishing trusts, etc etc. They can also move from the center to the state and vice versa. There is little local specialisation.

Focus

Colonial policing, as practiced in India, is often based on the statistics of crime registered, and the onus falls on the official in charge of an area to ensure that these statistics are low. In western jurisdictions, these statistics are used only for planning purposes, and not for reward or appraisal. This is often the cause of non registration of FIR's by lower police officials not wanting to have to explain the figures to their bosses.

Career Prospects

In the US and England, and most other developed world jurisdictions, any man joining as a patrolman/constable can aspire one day to be police chief, and this is the only entry point for new recruits. In India, there is a multi tiered system of entries into the police. One can join as a constable. One can join as a sub inspector. One can join as a DSP (State service). One can join in the IPS. The vast majority of constables will not make it to sub inspector in their entire career. The vast majority of directly recruited sub inspectors will not make it to DSP in their careers. The vast majority of directly recruited DSP's will not make it to the IPS in their careers. So in India, for a constable to become DGP is impossible. For a directly recruited SI, it is impossible. And Indeed, for a state police service officer to become DGP is also impossible. It is impossible for anyone but a regularly recruited IPS officer to become the DGP of a state force. This, IMO is a retrograde and very colonially oriented system. Indeed, IPS officers have the power of life and death over their non gazetted subordinates, and have been known to abuse it. Such absolute power is of course, undemocratic, and undesirable within a civil service.

Semi-militarization

The imperial police was largely an adjunct to the colonial military, and was often officered by it. Consequently, the history of the IPS in independent India, has been one long story of catch up with the Army in terms of Ranks, style, etc. Again, an undesirable trend. The skillset required by military and police, though mildly overlapping in some areas, is in the main, different. However, training of constables, SPS, and even IPS is largely patterned on military lines.

cbelwal · Post by **cbelwal** » 06 Jan 2010 03:28

Withdrawing pension benefits and security cover will be a good start that will hit where it hurts. If a law is passed to this effect it cant be challenged it court. For a person who can stoop so low like SPS Rathore, a police medal has no merit. Seems like another diversionary strategy by the Indian bureaucracy.

A conviction of a serving/retired government officer should result in automatic withdrawl of all retirement benefits like in the military. A dishonory discharge from the military leads to revocation of all promised retirement benefits.

CalvinH wrote: I think thats one of low hanging fruits Govt is acting on. Also GoI is using this to place an ordinance which will ensure that medals can be taken back from tainted officials even if they are retired. For other punishments there is no quick solution as law/court will take its time.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jan 2010 03:36

Thanks ASPuar. Good analysis.

Hugh Tinker says the Imperial Police was organized on basis of Royal Irish Constabulary (which was used to quell the Irish) and regularizing the Mughal Zabardasti system. Will find page and para numbers later.

Page 161:

The role of the police was somewhat different again: their forte was toughness. The Mughal inheritance faujdari police, may be likened to the irregular cavalry. their chief the daroga or inspector, manitained public order by carefully contrived exhibitions of terror. ..This zabardasti, strong arm justice, was replaced in 1860s by the provincial police ofrces modeled after the Royal irish Constabulary, with British district Superintendents....

cbelwal · Post by **cbelwal** » 06 Jan 2010 03:39

This is a very vital point. Unfortunately this problem is widespread in all areas of government where the IAS cadre gets to head every department irrespective of their experience. It needs to be made clear that people who have spent atleast X number of years in an organization can get to head it. Heads of CBI / BSF / CRPF / ITBP / IB and RAW should be cadre officers and not some IPS who's only claim to the post is clearance of one rote-learning exam.

If IPS / IAS cadre has to be maintained, the Indian Civil Services exam should be finished and people to fill these cadres recruited from experienced personel in other government departments. The Indian Civil Services only perpetuate the continuation of this highly discriminatory 'caste' system with 'IAS/IPS' on top and rest at the bottom.

ASPuar wrote:In the US and England, and most other developed world jurisdictions, any man joining as a patrolman/constable can aspire one day to be police chief, and this is the only entry point for new recruits. In India, there is a multi tiered system of entries into the police. One can join as a constable. One can join as a sub inspector. One can join as a DSP (State service). One can join in the IPS. The vast majority of constables will not make it to sub inspector in their entire career. The vast majority of directly recruited sub inspectors will not make it to DSP in their careers. The vast majority of directly recruited DSP's will not make it to the IPS in their careers. So in India, for a constable to become DGP is impossible. For a directly recruited SI, it is impossible. And Indeed, for a state police service officer to become DGP is also impossible. It is impossible for anyone but a regularly recruited IPS officer to become the DGP of a state force. This, IMO is a retrograde and very colonially oriented system. Indeed, IPS officers have the power of life and death over their non gazetted subordinates, and have been known to abuse it. Such absolute power is of course, undemocratic, and undesirable within a civil service.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 06 Jan 2010 08:15

ASPuar wrote:I. The structure of policing in India is colonial ....

====

II. Some points:

Career Streams
......
3. Starting off at the bottom, in routine policing duties, is a way for the police recruit to gain an thorough understanding of what police work actually is. He becomes acquainted with neighborhood policing, and community problems. It is not unusual for a constable to spend a vast majority of his service in his own village, in england.

Pay

4. Pay for police patrolmen/constables is of a reasonably good standard, in both the US and England. It is a civil service post, and not considered a bottom of the heap job. An average policeman post recruit training in America, makes over 36000$ per annum, going up to 65000$ in NYPD, and 90000$ in Nassau PD.

Local Control

5. Policing is localised. There is no "outsider" "Imperial Police" running the show "for the natives". Police is recruited, trained, paid and fielded by the county/town/state, as the case may be for county sherrifs/municipal police/state police forces. In India, policemen can be transferred from district to district, IPS can move from being policemen in the state to being spies, to educators, to Paramilitary commanders, to heads of corporations, to heads of education boards, to heads of publishing trusts, etc etc. They can also move from the center to the state and vice versa. There is little local specialisation.

Focus

Colonial policing, as practiced in India, is often based on the statistics of crime registered, and the onus falls on the official in charge of an area to ensure that these statistics are low. In western jurisdictions, these statistics are used only for planning purposes, and not for reward or appraisal. This is often the cause of non registration of FIR's by lower police officials not wanting to have to explain the figures to their bosses.

Career Prospects

In the US and England, and most other developed world jurisdictions, any man joining as a patrolman/constable can aspire one day to be police chief, ......

Semi-militarization

The imperial police was largely an adjunct to the colonial military, and was often officered by it. Consequently, the history of the IPS in independent India, has been one long story of catch up with the Army in terms of Ranks, style, etc. Again, an undesirable trend. The skillset required by military and police, though mildly overlapping in some areas, is in the main, different. However, training of constables, SPS, and even IPS is largely patterned on military lines.

I. So what legislations do you propose to make Indian Police non-colonial?

II. And what legislations do you propose to address the above mentioned "some points"?

===

[An OST story : There was patient with a very bad irritating habit. He would visit docs. The docs would explain him the feature of the diseases he has, the damage the diseases do, how diseases are spreading in his body, how diseases could have been prevented in past etc. In the end, the patient would ask a very stupid question "Doc, can you please spell the name of the medicines you propose?". The docs would get irritated to a point that all docs started making fun of him, and some docs even demanded that that patient should be thrown out the town. But "kutte ki doom tedhi hi tedhi" -- patient did not change and continued with his irritating habit. Now does this OST tale look IST

?]

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 06 Jan 2010 09:59

Rahul Mehta ji, having no legislative powers, I leave the legislations to you, when you finally ascend to the Gujarat Assembly! However, you will find over there, that you have zero power to change the system of policing in your state, because it is ordained by the central government, that the IPS will rule the roost, regardless of what you might want.

Of course, formation of an elected police oversight board, reorganisation of police forces, with recruitment being uniformly at one level, clear and enforceable rules as to misconduct and dismissal, etc would make a difference, dont you think?

But some further points on our police system:

1. The Officer-Other Ranks gulf in the Indian Police system contributes to the "above the law" status of superior police and administrative service officials, because:

a. Most routine police work is done only by officials up to the rank of Inspector (Non Gazetted Officer).

b. The difference in power between even the senior most non gazetted officer and the juniormost IPS officer is such, that whatever an IPS officer does, he cannot be touched by the routine operation of the law enforcement system. The law is enforced by his juniors.

c. This is reinforced by powers given to DIG's and above, to summarily dismiss police other ranks below SI, from police service, no questions asked.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 06 Jan 2010 10:30

ASPuar, good points

. I was recently reading the biography of Leonard "Nipper" Read who as a Chief Superindent (= our SP) had tackled the underworld in London then ruled by the Kray twins. He as is the custom in UK joined as a Police Constable, then picked up ranks through Sgt, Insp. Ch.Insp, Super etc. And finally he retired as the Chief Constable from one of the provincial police forces. I dont know if this model would work here, because of the uniqueness of our country. State police agencies will have to work together, so it would be better to have a team of officers who have done the common training and who are on the "same page".

I totally agree that summary powers of dismissal should be taken away from any police officer. There should be a more better procedure like a tribunal or police establishment board where both parties can be heard out.

Today a police constable (how ever educated he is, or long service record he has) cannot even take up the investigation of any trivial case. He can how ever "assist" the Sub Inspector and help him out with the investigations. So the PC is essentially like a pawn with no special authorities. Sub Inspectors are held responsible for each and every investigation, and filing of charge sheets in courts. And because of this SI, Inspectors and upto certain level the Dy.SPs have a very high workload. Add to this their regular duties of patrolling, bandobust etc. Compare this with the system in US, where constables/sergeants have the rights to charge some one, prepare a charge sheet and get a hearing in court. The Lieutenants etc. just don't have to run around doing this work.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 06 Jan 2010 12:58

Sachin wrote:I dont know if this model would work here, because of the uniqueness of our country. State police agencies will have to work together, so it would be better to have a team of officers who have done the common training and who are on the "same page".

I dont think that this is a particularly unique situation. State police agencies have to work in coordination the World over, and there is a certain basic codification of police standards. Other than this, there is an overarching umbrella of federal law enforcement agencies, to handle cross border matters.

Two systems have developed independently in the USA and the UK:

1. In the USA, interstate crime is investigated by the FBI. Of course, Local/State/Federal law enforcement agencies, all follow similar codes and standards, so everyone can speak the same language. Other federal Law Enforcement Orgs (LEO's), such as BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms), IRS (Internal Revenue Service), NCIS, etc, all work in coordination with local agencies, as a matter of routine, and vice versa. Nothing stops us from using a similar system, wrt the CBI, IRS, and NCB in India.

2. In the UK, a separate system has evolved, with certain cross border authority granted to local policing bodies, and fuller cross border arrest and other powers granted to other "National" police bodies, such as the British Transport Police.

At any rate, nothing stops us from having a standardized "National" police training standards system, and police academies erected along these lines, nationwide. But the critical point is stopping all these various levels of entry, and de-paramilitarizing our police force, and turning it into a genuine, civil police service, rather than the colonial setup we have today. In the current system, a few good men will continue to try and do good, while the system will make sure they have little impact in the end.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 07 Jan 2010 14:32

ASP,

While comparing Police Depts of India, UP and UK, what difference did you find in expulsion procedures?

.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 09 Jan 2010 19:23

This is India. Please do not see if you are faint hearted. Indian police is one of the best systems though corruptions are there. BUt the police is killed on the road and so no one helps the police on the road. Though the reasons are peronal for the office but we need to see how the police can be protected or at least services at such time can be offered quickely. Tamil nadu government should have helicopter ambulance in every district.

http://www.dinamalar.com/video_Inner.asp?news_id=719

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 09 Jan 2010 19:37

joshvajohn wrote:Tamil nadu government should have helicopter ambulance in every district.

Any estimates how much this would cost? (construction of helipads in 32 places, purchase of 32 helicopters, hiring 32 pilots to fly them, hiring staff for their regular maintenance to keep them in serviceable condition, doctors and emergency personnel who can accompany the patients during transit, money for the expensive aviation fuel and the expenses for regular training of personnel). Even an rough estimate would do.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 09 Jan 2010 20:09

The cost of a helicopter may be around 1,50,000 to 2,00,000US dollars.Then the government can send them a large number of young and healthy aero-Engineers for piolet training. The heli-pads are not necesarily costing a lot.
The whole thing would cost an investment in one district around 5 to 6 crores and the maintanance which would cost every year around 3 million rupees and salary everything would include around the same with the good team of doctors and so on.

May be Tamil Nadu Government can consider working with the airambulance services in UK through a business partnership which might get cheaper in operation and training costs.
http://www.airambulanceassociation.co.uk/

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 09 Jan 2010 20:52

john

that was horrible

a brief description for the non tamilians might be worth it.

really really sad