Indian Police Reform

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
SRoy
BRFite
Posts: 1938
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 06:45
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by SRoy »

CCTNS development is going to be a quite, backroom affair. It will provide the base platform for intelligence sharing, trend analysis, advance warning etc.

The real action is elsewhere. To begin with communication networks getting upgraded, we are working in a couple of cases for TETRA deployment. Older UHF/VFH infrastructure is simply not capable.

For tier 2/3 cities sensitive areas are simply not mapped enough to enable GIS support, which is must for rapid action teams.

AVL systems for patrol cars have just begin get operationalized, again their efficiency is hampered by lack good GIS data for....ummm...lets say "no go" areas.

Problems galore....telco operators do not push locational information for mobile calls.

Surviellance systems are a joke...none other than place like New Delhi has its key CCTV cameras covered in dust...in a sensitive area no less. You have to call the SHO in vicinity to switch on the set or occasionally reboot the router (thank God they are on IP) there.

Overall a messy picture.
SRoy
BRFite
Posts: 1938
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 06:45
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by SRoy »

Sachin wrote:Given a free hand every state police would come up with requirements which they would claim as the most important ones. Things would start going down the slippery slope from here itself.
Unfortunately that's what is happening. If I use the local lingo here, every IG is a "Chaudhary".
Sachin wrote: There are organisations like BPRD which are for researching areas of police improvement. Let them collect the requirements, come up with a kind of 'must have', 'good to have' feature list and coordinate with private vendors.
That's another are for concern. One law and order agency in Dilli floated a RFI for one of their projects, and then went on to combine everything from all responses to come up a RFP that no vendor was able to comply in full. The case has gone for re-tendering. :rotfl:
sinha
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 94
Joined: 05 Jun 2009 17:17
Location: Nirmal chetan Desh

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by sinha »

SRoy wrote:CCTNS development is going to be a quite, backroom affair. It will provide the base platform for intelligence sharing, trend analysis, advance warning etc.
I though this was largely driven by NCRB - and having met them I dont think any of them there has any idea of advance warning systems etc etc. who is driving these requirements?
SRoy wrote: For tier 2/3 cities sensitive areas are simply not mapped enough to enable GIS support, which is must for rapid action teams. AVL systems for patrol cars have just begin get operationalized, again their efficiency is hampered by lack good GIS data for....ummm...lets say "no go" areas.
so much money is being spent in mapping each and every transformer and electric line that exists in India as part of R-APDRP - cant the same GIS data and the maps be re-used?
added: and as part of ULB modernization (eMunicipality) GIS data/maps are there to be used as part of urban management. This has started rolling out. add to this the existing GIS based land records. why does everyone want their own fiefdom - collaborate across from the other server in state data center and thats it ....
SRoy
BRFite
Posts: 1938
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 06:45
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by SRoy »

sinha wrote: so much money is being spent in mapping each and every transformer and electric line that exists in India as part of R-APDRP - cant the same GIS data and the maps be re-used?
added: and as part of ULB modernization (eMunicipality) GIS data/maps are there to be used as part of urban management. This has started rolling out. add to this the existing GIS based land records. why does everyone want their own fiefdom - collaborate across from the other server in state data center and thats it ....
Actually two problems here.

1. Cops will probably not share some detailed features with other civil agencies. For good reason.

2. Land records data is not sufficient. For one city in central India we had to team up with a leading GIS vendor to conduct ground surveys as per the police requirements to collect points of interests. For monitoring reasons, what the cops asked was much detailed and unique comapred vanilla land holding records.

Same with RAPDRP data. What is the coverage? What level of urban PoIs are collected?
sinha
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 94
Joined: 05 Jun 2009 17:17
Location: Nirmal chetan Desh

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by sinha »

well I am not asking COPS to share their data, but atleast they can pull in layers, outlays, PoIs and other info straight in from other sources like ULBs, land records, NRSI etc etc.

I have asked some of my partners in crime who are doing eMunicipality stuff to enlighten me on scope of surveys and same for RAPDRP - will come back with what type of info is being collected and mapped.

I am quite curious, if it doesnt bring down the world , what type of Geo data in Cities is of interest to state police which is unique.
SRoy
BRFite
Posts: 1938
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 06:45
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by SRoy »

sinha wrote: I am quite curious, if it doesnt bring down the world , what type of Geo data in Cities is of interest to state police which is unique.
You got be kidding... :D
However, ask your GIS guys or some cops as what kind of information would they like to see on a map....say during a love fest between "two communities"...or....like during a Jamia type operation...enough hints :)
sinha
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 94
Joined: 05 Jun 2009 17:17
Location: Nirmal chetan Desh

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by sinha »

I persist, the apdrp paanwala came back with collected info "name, address, tel, meter no, both side neighbours, geo-code of dwelling unit, plot no" collected on dgps.

Now a simple Location based iPhone app can pull in enough on demographics (ahem) with pattern filter for the cops to do what they go best.

overlay rental data, terrain info, ULB pipleines and other sources you have a "killer" app
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by sum »

Very interesting study done in B'luru. Two reports on the same posted:
For State cops, corruption is a way of life
A joint survey by the police department and the Public Affairs Centre, a non-governmental organisation, has made revelations that are now commonplace, but the findings provide an account of the culture of corruption in the State’s police force.

The survey has revealed that about 48 per cent of the staff in 1,020 police stations across six administrative ranges in the State demand bribes from complainants who, in turn, constitute 9 per cent of people willing to bribe the law enforcers.

Among the complainants, 30 per cent of those interviewed by the joint survey team said they bribe the police to speed up investigations, while another 20 per cent claimed that suspects would be arrested if they greased the palms of investigators.

The survey report was prepared after interviewing 20 complainants and five police staff in over 1,000 police stations, Director-General of Police Ajai Kumar Singh said here on Thursday while releasing the findings.

The survey was conducted to understand the police’s response toward the public, grievances among personnel and the level of people’s satisfaction with police performance.

Among the candid admissions the policemen made in the course of their interviews was that they used the bribe money to meet expenses involved in investigation processes.

While 70 per cent of the policemen said they utilised the bribes to pursue leads and meet other crime investigation-related expenditure, 20 of them admitted to using the tainted money for personal needs and about 10 per cent disclosed they took bribes for the upkeep and maintenance of police stations.

Singh said there was a general impression that people do not come forward to lodge complaints due to fear of the police. “But the truth is quite different,” he said, buttressing his claims with statistics that suggest that 70 per cent of people visit police stations to lodge complaints “with confidence.” Of these, nearly 42 per cent lack the understanding and knowledge involving filing first information reports or complaints. And yet the same statistics the survey threw up indicate that the average bribe amount given and taken at every police station is Rs 2,100. While a police station in the Northern Range takes Rs 3,600, one in the Eastern Division takes Rs 920.

Singh did not indicate that poor pay could be one of the reasons for subordinate-level policemen taking bribes. But he did admit that many serving low-ranked officers and constables work under tremendous pressure. “Some of them are unable to avail of their leave,” Singh said, adding that policemen serving in the West and South divisions of Bangalore perform better in comparison to their counterparts in other divisions.

Average bribe sought by police is Rs. 2,100 a case, says study
BANGALORE: A person takes about three hours to register a complaint and waits for about four hours to get a copy of the First Information Report (FIR). The average bribe amount sought by the police is Rs. 2,100 for every case. The policemen feel that they will get promotions if they are in the good books of senior officers. Their work is hindered by interference from local politicians and religious leaders.

These are some of the findings of the study “Police work culture: A bottom-up assessment” conducted by the Public Affairs Centre in association with the Police Department. The objective of the study was to assess the quality, responsiveness and outcomes of the basic services provided at the police station. The Government allocated Rs. 30 lakh for the study.

The study, which started on October 6, 2009, randomly identified 100 police stations in six police ranges and three police commissionerates. The PAC team collected views of 2,000 complainants and 500 police personnel. The findings of the study were released on Thursday.

Notable observations

Regarding the time taken for registration of the complaint, the study has found that while the police stations in the Western range take nearly 90 minutes those in police commissionerates take three hours. About 58 per cent of people coming to the police stations were not aware about the process of registration of the case. It has also found that there are boards to display information guiding people about the process of registering complaints.

As much as Rs. 3,600 per case was taken as bribe in police stations in Northern Range while those in Western Range were demanding Rs. 920.

The study pointed out that the policemen put in long working hours. On an average, 40 per cent of the personnel work for nearly 16 hours a day, while about 50 per cent of the personnel working in the commissionerates work for so long on a normal day. It has shown that a majority of the personnel in the commissionerates are working without weekly offs.

An interesting point, Director-General and Inspector-General of Police Ajai Kumar Singh said, was about weekly offs and people's satisfaction. “In places where weekly offs are given, there is an indication of a large number of people being satisfied with the services,” Mr. Singh said.

Admitting that the findings of the study were not new, Mr. Singh said the study has only quantified about some of popular perceptions. “As an extension of this study, we will be focussing on some of the areas,” Mr. Singh said.

The finding of the report has been sent to all the Superintendents of Police and Police Commissioners. “Some of them have reported about the steps that have been taken,” he said. The department has addressed many of the issues, including providing Rs. 20 crore for meeting investigation expenses.
Really sad to see that most of the policemen work 16 hrs/day for 7 days a week without a off!!! :|
Vasu
BRFite
Posts: 869
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by Vasu »

Most of the people commenting on the corrupt state of the police forces in the country tend to look at the socio-economic aspects of this issue only from their own side, and have already formed a bias in their minds even before trying to understand the problem.

Being a police officer is tough, and being an honest police officer is even tougher. I am very thankful for this study because even though this survey is based on a small sample, it can be safely assumed that this is the state of affairs across all state police forces.

Long working hours, few or no holidays, very little powers, threadbare facilities and non-existing or non-working weaponry, and nothing seems to be done to mitigate these problems at all. An average police officer probably feels emasculated enough for having to tow the line of every petty neta.

The Prime Minister of India had promised a long time ago that police reforms were one his priorities, but nothing seems to have started on this front. Even LK Advani, when he was Home Minister, had announced a INR 10,000 Crore Police reform plan that was to upgrade police stations, provide better weaponary to officers, and connect all the stations of the country online.

Seems even the police forces suffer from the same problem as India. We talk of providing the latest gadgetry but the biggest reform will be improving on the basics!
Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 8963
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by Sachin »

To add to this. The Superme Courts directives (it was not an order) for Police reforms were shunned by all the states. The SC wanted a Police Establishment Board to be formed and they would be the authority on postings, transfers etc. And this was the main point of contention for all the states (read politicians).

I feel that the political establishment in India (irrespective of parties) wants to ensure that the police force remains a starved hound. They need to be remain frusturated so much so that all humane aspects are totally wiped out. Such a force can be used as a weapon against opponents or people who cannot fight back. And if the police themselves does not toe the line, charges of excessive force, bribery etc. conviniently brought up and disciplinary charges initiated.

If police needs to improve, a complete over-haul is required and that too right from the bottom. Questions like "what is a police force, and why it needs to be there, and how it needs to be established in India" needs to be thought off. And no, it is not for the police force and its people to think in these lines. In many cases the police are pawns in the whole game.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by sum »

IIRC, a problem could be the artificial British hangover barrier between the IPS big-daddies and the average pandu and SI. The IPS never actually get their hands dirty in the field before rsing up to Dy SP rank ( directly recruited) and do lead a pretty cushy life compared to the constable/SI/inspector who have to slog 18-20 hrs/7 days with the superiors not even noticing since they are too busy hobnobbing with the big league ( netas etc).

If the average IPS babu is made to work in exact conditions of the lower cadre ( work, perk, motivation wise) , maybe the IPS would then vigorously push for a change in the system?
Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 8963
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by Sachin »

sum wrote:If the average IPS babu is made to work in exact conditions of the lower cadre ( work, perk, motivation wise) , maybe the IPS would then vigorously push for a change in the system?
Then the best way would be to follow the British pattern which they follow in UK. Right from the Chief Constable, down to the PC joins the force as a PC only. The rest are all based on in-service exams/interviews. In India, perhaps IPS exams can only be opened up for folks who are already in the police force. Like for example if a person has a career aspiration for IPS let them join the force as a Sub Inspector and then appear for IPS.
Vasu
BRFite
Posts: 869
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by Vasu »

sum wrote:IIRC, a problem could be the artificial British hangover barrier between the IPS big-daddies and the average pandu and SI. The IPS never actually get their hands dirty in the field before rsing up to Dy SP rank ( directly recruited) and do lead a pretty cushy life compared to the constable/SI/inspector who have to slog 18-20 hrs/7 days with the superiors not even noticing since they are too busy hobnobbing with the big league ( netas etc).

If the average IPS babu is made to work in exact conditions of the lower cadre ( work, perk, motivation wise) , maybe the IPS would then vigorously push for a change in the system?
sum, I will have to disagree with you here. One of my parents is an IAS officer so I have had an opportunity to interact with a lot of IAS, IPS, IFS officials, and can tell you that the post of an IPS officer is not what you make it out to be. Believe me, they, being in direct contact with the gandu's in power, are the most frustrated lot because they have all the right ideas for change and empowerment, but are helpless because they can't implement them. Eventually, as they grow older, they fall in line and can only think of doing their job. (hob-nobbing with the big league is not a 'perk' for most of the officers, it's something they have to do to survive).

The young IAS/IPS officers of today are in many ways a lot smarter and enterprising than some of the old crop of officers. They are much more aware of where they stand, what the current laws allow them to do and how to get things done despite the system. Besides, not all of them get to sit in plush offices in state capitals - most of them are also slogging it out in the remotest districts of the country.

Sachin Sir, thanks for bringing it up. I was thinking of this tribunal too, but it just slipped from my mind while typing my post. I was hoping the Con'gress, with its so-called power in the Parliament, would see that this tribunal would be formed, but my naive optimism got the better of me.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by sum »

sum, I will have to disagree with you here. One of my parents is an IAS officer so I have had an opportunity to interact with a lot of IAS, IPS, IFS officials, and can tell you that the post of an IPS officer is not what you make it out to be. Believe me, they, being in direct contact with the gandu's in power, are the most frustrated lot because they have all the right ideas for change and empowerment, but are helpless because they can't implement them. Eventually, as they grow older, they fall in line and can only think of doing their job. (hob-nobbing with the big league is not a 'perk' for most of the officers, it's something they have to do to survive).
Thanks for that info.

Glad to hear the "true" picture from someone who has a look into the "system". So, according to you, its only the netas who are holding the reforms back and not the IPS top brass?
Vasu
BRFite
Posts: 869
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by Vasu »

well lets not be as categorial as that. I understand you're a regular on this forum and possibly much elder to me, but why the sarcasm? We're all here to share and learn, and I wanted to share what I have experienced in my life. why should my "true" picture of the "system" rub you the wrong way?

However, I will be categorial in saying that any system only changes because of the concerted effort of a few, rather than the collected effort of all. This system, or rather, this nexus between a politician and a police officer is very grey, and it is not just a matter of them mollycoddling with each other, but a host of other social and economic factors.

If by your sarcasm you are implying that I believe that, for example, the Police Establishment Board, will create the emergence of a model police officer who will then never stand for any injustice from a politician, then no, I do not. A big factor that will make a change is strengthening our policy. I totally believe that we do need to get down to answering the basic questions such as who is a police officer, what role does the police play in today's society, and what are their powers. Our archaic police laws do not match today's society at all.
Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 8963
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by Sachin »

Vasu wrote:I totally believe that we do need to get down to answering the basic questions such as who is a police officer, what role does the police play in today's society, and what are their powers. Our archaic police laws do not match today's society at all.
To put it honestly, I believe that in 1947 August 15th the only change which happened was that the Queen of England handed over the power in toto to the next set of Kings and Queens of India. These new 'royalty' had every thing neatly arranged for them in a plate. Only thing they had to do was to sit and learn ways to misuse it. In many cases (like the Armed Forces and Railways to an extent) things did not get bad because Army was generally in the barracks, and Railways were just a transport scheme which did not effect the 'kings and queens' in any way.

Unfortunately for the police that was not the case. No politician really wanted the police for the job which it was created for. All they wanted was the same "British Raj" police. And yes, we also need to admit that in many cases the police men too were happy with that kind of a role.

Perhaps with new generation of police men, with better educational qualification and world view joining the force things may be changing. But the system being so huge it would take some good amount of years before the police really becomes a helping force for the people. Police Establishment Board may not be the silver bullet for every problem, but it may at least some better results.

In parts of Kerala there used to be a saying about who joined the army and who joined the police.
പാങ്ങില്ലാത്തവൻ പാങ്ങോട്ടും (paanngillaatthavan paanngOTTum)
പോക്കില്ലാത്തവൻ പോലീസിലും... (pOkkillaatthavan pOlIsilum... )

which means "a person who does not have any one to help him out, generally lands up at a place Pangod which had a Military Regiment stationed there, a person who does not see any chances of progression in life joins the Police".
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by sum »

well lets not be as categorial as that. I understand you're a regular on this forum and possibly much elder to me, but why the sarcasm? We're all here to share and learn, and I wanted to share what I have experienced in my life. why should my "true" picture of the "system" rub you the wrong way?
Errr, Vasu-saar, there was no sarcasm intended in my post. Sorry if it came across like that ( due to improper usage of " " ) :oops: :oops:

I genuinely have no chaiwallah in the police/IPS community and appreciated the insight from a person who actually had some look into the IPS/police side of life.
Vasu
BRFite
Posts: 869
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by Vasu »

I am glad to hear that Saar.

Of course, my experiences and views are only a drop in the host of issues relating to India's bureaucratic system. There are just so many factors involved that merely having good intentions does little.

However, I do believe that the single most important factor holding back reforms is the unwillingness of the political class to let go of the reins of the police forces. The average police officer has no immunity against a politician's spite. That, and ensuring better pay can definitely be the start of something good.
rahulm
BRFite
Posts: 1247
Joined: 19 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by rahulm »

Here is a FHR (First Hand Report) from my unintended interaction yesterday with the Pune Traffic police.

Have been in Desh for around 2 months and drove an ALTO yesterday to GigaSpace IT park on Nagar road. As a matter of procedure I always check for any parking signs in the vicinity before parking.

Sure, enough there was one which said "No Parking 10 metres" or so I thought at the time. I would be proved wrong later.

I parked my car outside where I thought the 10 metre restriction ended. (Aside: Whats with the distance on parking signs. How am I supposed to measure 10 metres from the sign. Am I expected to haul a measuring tape with me?)

Re-emerged 2.5 hours later from my appointment and gasped in horror as I found my car missing. After evaluating several scenarios in a second, and discarding the very unlikely scenario of theft, the only logical explanation was it had been towed away. But why and most importantly, where?

Walked back to "No parking" sign bewildered. I was sure it said 10 metres and the car was parked way beyond the 10 metrezone.boundary. Re-checked and the sign now pronounced "100 metres". The sign is bent and from a certain angle it is not possible to see the last zero. Damm. There was no way I could fight this one. It was too thin an argument.

I mentally accept culpability and keeping my head together, I read "Shastri Nagar" written neatly in Marathi where I last saw my car. I assume it means I should go to the Shastri Nagar police station (which is not very far).

I landed up at the Shastri Nagar police station and headed straight for the main building. There was a havildar in Khakhi and a lady traffic cop in the verandah. The building was neat and both looked at me enquiringly and one said quite pleasantly "Bola saheb", that's "Yes, sir " in Marathi.

After hearing my purpose, they directed me to the rear portion of the campus. I trudged past plenty of vehicles in various states; from new to crumpled accident victims. Amongst them I spotted my little faithful ALTO, its right front wheel chain locked.

The traffic unit building had 2 lady traffic cops and a gent who politely & pleasantly directed me to call a number that they said must be written on the my window glass.

I looked and there it was. I called and it was answered by a cheerful sounding person who, on hearing my purpose, asked me to wait near the vehicle for 5 minutes. I prepared myself and settled down for an infinite wait and painful ordeal.

In my mind I inventoried all the documents in my glove box. Yes, I think I have then all. Copies of rego, current insurance and an up to date PUC. Let him try me for anything other than parking and I will stand my ground I firmly resolve.

Second shock of the day: I am pleasantly horrified when the cop comes and meets me within 5 minutes (by the clock). He asks me to come into the building. Picks up a fat receipt book from the desk and very gently tells me I have to pay Rs. 350 for my infringement. Even gives me the break up (Rs. 100 RTO fine + Rs. 250 as charges for the private tow truck operator who is also present with his tow truck).

I am asked for my licence which is from Gujarat and in an licence book format. My licence number is duly recorded on the "pavati" (receipt).

I watch the placement of carbon paper in the RTO receipt book very carefully and ensure a copy is being created. It is. I hand over the money. The cop gives me the RTO receipt and the tow truck operator hands me his separately.

The cop smiles at me and says "gaadi gheun java saheb". (You may now go take your car & go sir).

Third shock: What? No checking of all my documents. I hurriedly walk back to my car before he changes his mind.

The tow truck operator is in the final stages of unchaining my car.

Fourth shock: He wipes absolutely clean the phone number written in chalk on my driver side window. This is getting weird, I think. This is attention to little detail which even my pretentious high flying bank does not give me!

I nervously check my glove box for the detachable stereo control panel. Its still there - unmolested.

I drive away. Its 2:00 PM, I am hungry and bewildered by the whole experience.I decide to have the great thali at Badshahi on Laxmi Road. I park close to the restaurant (mess actually) and retrieve my back pack from the car and then realise I am missing a bag. My precious priceless camera bag is gone. Its nowhere to be seen!

I feel sick, all over. I am so careful with it. This can't be happening to me and an inner voice tells me its true. What of all the photos? My beloved LX3, with a wide angle adapter and a proper external flash gun is gone. Loosing the camera and accessories is bad enough but its the loss of the photos which is irreconcilable.

I force my frantic brain to recompose itself and think clearly. My last re-collection is of leaving it at the bench at the police thana when I was producing my licence. This is bad. I start reconciling myself to never ever seeing the camera again.

Nervously, I call the cops mobile number and explain that I have left a camera there. He very patiently hears me out and then my heart sinks when he says, he does not re-collect any bag being left there but assures me he will check and I should call him in 10 minutes. The day is getting from bad to worse think. By now, I have lat all hope of every seeing my camera.

Fifth shock: The cop calls me within 5 minutes "Saheb, tumcha camera bag milala. Mi japun thevla, tumhi yeun ghuen ja. "Sir, I have found your camera bag, I have kept it carefully, please come and take it"

I am relieved beyond words. I thank him profusely. Not wanting to offer any money in gratitude, I buy half a kilo of fresh pedha's from a shop and head back to the police station. 45 minutes later, at the police station, I can't find him,

Surely, this can't be happening!Nervously, I call him. He answers the call! He is away on duty but has left instructions with his colleagues to give me the bag. I walk in again and a male traffic cop who has seen me earlier I presume preempts me by asking if I have come for my camera bag. I nod.

He reaches behind his desk and carefully picks up my camera bag from a cupboard and gingerly hands it to me with a smile. I open the bag and its all there inside. All Rs. 50k worth of equipment is right there.I am gobsmacked.

I gratefully offer him the box of pedha's. He refuses. (that's normal I think). I try again. He still refuses. I now insist, Its only a box of pedha's I assure him, nothing more.

6th shock: He rejects with an air of finality "kahi garaz nahi" (not at all necessary) and focuses his attention purposefully on the work on his desk, signalling he is done with me. I offer the most grateful "dhanyavad", walk back to my car and drive off home.

I can't take any more shocks in the day. I stay home.

3 cheers to Pune Traffic police.Well done.
Last edited by rahulm on 11 Sep 2010 15:56, edited 2 times in total.
chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by chaanakya »

^^^

Signs of change. Kudos to Pune Traffic Police.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by sum »

These are the kinds of stories which should make the front pages t show that even good guys are recognised. No point having only anti-police stories in the DDM all the time which will demoralise the good guys even more..
SRoy
BRFite
Posts: 1938
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 06:45
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by SRoy »

rahulm wrote: 3 cheers to Pune Traffic police.Well done.
chaanakya wrote:^^^

Signs of change. Kudos to Pune Traffic Police.

Contents deleted by moderator
Last edited by archan on 15 Sep 2010 20:04, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: deleted
Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 8963
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by Sachin »

SRoy wrote:Sorry, no sympathy from me when these b**t***s are mowed down by trucks on highways or blown up by Naxals.
To see it from another perspective. RTO rules are not formed by any of the police ranks who generally get killed in action (Sub Inspectors and below). The officers and ministers and bureaucrats who form up the policy guidelines are way up in the hierarchy so that they are not lucky enough to get mowed down by trucks or blown up by naxals. I dont say we need to sympathise with any one, but then we should be prepared NOT to expect to get no sympathy either ;). People whine about police men being too unsympathetic to their complaints (which could start from one chap losing his mobile phone, to another who finds that an autopsy of a dead relative is not done on time). When we dont offer any sympathies to any one, how can we expect some body to have it for us :).

Another nugget regarding parking rules and regulations. The police can only "enforce" the parking rules and laws. They cannot frame up their own rules and laws. And who frames the parking rules, and demarcates the parking areas? It has to be the municipal corporation/council (which is an elected body). But who gets the maximum curses at the end?? It is the police!.

We have many archiac rules and laws in the place. It is complicated and break the patience of any one. Many of them are related to law enforcement. But it is not the police who needs to be blamed for that. There are a multitude of agencies who are into all these. In many cases the police becomes the favourite scape goat, because ultimately they are the people who are seen on the ground doing things.
Vasu
BRFite
Posts: 869
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by Vasu »

Sachin, you shouldn't even be explaining anything. That statement does not merit it.
chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by chaanakya »

^^^^
One may have several good as well as bad experiences. May be bad experiences outweigh good experiences. But if one keeps on brooding about bad experiences , it develops negative attitude. I see lot of frustration , pent up feelings on account of lack of response from the system and the person manning the system at interaction level. People bitch about bureaucrats, Army, politicians , Biharis, Indians , Public sector, private sector, social or commercial good and what not. But remember one thing , one finger pointed to others , three fingers point to oneself.
Lets look at the bright side and try to encourage it. Minimise ( I don't say overlook) darker side.

BTW, I do agree that RTO is one of the most corrupt agencies.But surely time for change has come and things are going to improve slowly but surely.
Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 8963
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by Sachin »

chaanakya wrote:BTW, I do agree that RTO is one of the most corrupt agencies.But surely time for change has come and things are going to improve slowly but surely.
Also what we need to understand is that there are a battalion of civic agencies in India, and in many cases they work in isolation. For example the agency deciding which area can have residential buildings would be totally disconnected with the agency which is supposed to provide water, and with another agency which should supply electric power, and yet another agency who is to lay the roads to the area. RTO and Police even though share some common aspects, are generally two different agencies for operational purposes. Same is the case with Fire Brigade, the Excise Dept. etc.

To get all these agencies into a very cooperative and resource sharing mode, would take more time. Computerisation would surely help us here, but still it is not going to be an easy task. Right now I am trying to get my Amateur Radio license. The police verification (one part of the mammoth set of tasks), it self is a lengthy procedure. One step cleared, and I don't know how many other agencies get involved if and when I get a license.

BTW, I have heard the same person who happily said that to get an NOC stamped on your RC Book (loan closed) all you need is to bribe a tout, criticise the RTO staff for being the most corrupt lot. All this within a matter of 10 minutes ;).
Pranay
BRFite
Posts: 1458
Joined: 06 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by Pranay »

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/world ... ?ref=world

This is the scale of investigation and follow through that is needed in India. Would love to see the day when police agencies are independent enough from their political masters to accomplish actions against corrupt entities on this scale...
Italy Seizes $1.9 Billion in Mafia-Linked Assets
By GAIA PIANIGIANI
Published: September 14, 2010

ROME— The Italian police seized $1.9 billion in assets belonging to a Sicilian businessman linked to the Mafia in the country’s biggest blow against organized crime, Italy’s interior minister said Tuesday.

The businessman, Vito Nicastri, mainly operates in the alternative-energy business and has already been involved in several investigations focused on Mafia infiltration in the construction of windmills in Sicily’s Trapani Province and on links between the Mafia and ’Ndrangheta crime associations in Calabria, according to a statement by Rome Anti-Mafia Directorate. Italian authorities seized Mr. Nicastri’s assets to investigate him, but he has not been arrested.

The seized assets included more than 100 properties around Sicily, 43 companies operating mainly in the wind- and solar-power industry — some with headquarters in Luxembourg — as well as luxury cars, a 46-foot catamaran, bank accounts and securities.
Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by Surya »

SRoy wrote:
Sorry, no sympathy from me when these b**t***s are mowed down by trucks on highways or blown up by Naxals.
that is just sick
Marut
BRFite
Posts: 623
Joined: 25 Oct 2009 23:05
Location: The Original West Coast!!

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by Marut »

SRoy wrote:
Sorry, no sympathy from me when these b**t***s are mowed down by trucks on highways or blown up by Naxals.
And pray tell us what have you done for the society to pass such a judgement?

I understand you are frustrated with the archaic practices still being followed but your anger is misdirected at those who ultimately ensure that there is some law & order maintained in this country. That cop who was mowed down by a truck was enforcing the writ of the Indian State against terrorists/arsonists wanting a Caliphate and the ones gunned down by the Naxals were ensuring that development reaches the remotest parts of our country, something the Naxals preach but practise opposite with deadly force.

We have a long way to go in terms of reform and modernisation of our rules, especially police reforms but no need to piss on the very force which is securing you and safeguarding your way of life on a daily basis.
SRoy
BRFite
Posts: 1938
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 06:45
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by SRoy »

Sachin wrote:
SRoy wrote:Sorry, no sympathy from me when these b**t***s are mowed down by trucks on highways or blown up by Naxals.
To see it from another perspective. RTO rules are not formed by any of the police ranks who generally get killed in action (Sub Inspectors and below). The officers and ministers and bureaucrats who form up the policy guidelines are way up in the hierarchy so that they are not lucky enough to get mowed down by trucks or blown up by naxals. I dont say we need to sympathise with any one, but then we should be prepared NOT to expect to get no sympathy either ;).
Please read my post carefully look in to the facts.

1. Can you explain me as how you would be getting an address proof today (i.e. beforehand) if you are to move to Lucknow or Guwahati in next 10 days (consider that you do not work for any central or state departments)?

2. Granted a low level cop is not in control of stupid policy as #1, what goes inside his mine to suppress the information at the first time but blurt it time at the 11th hour?

You call something a policy which is not logically possible? We are not talking about sympathies, mine to policemen or vice-a-versa, we are talking about common sense stuff.

Or is it that Delhi Police wishes that people getting their vehicles out of Delhi should spend some time in destination and only after settling down should apply for NoC from Delhi?

Apart from being stupid, that's what the requirements imply? Even why is it difficult to spell that directly in a simple English?

Had I known I would have sold off my car.
Last edited by SRoy on 15 Sep 2010 19:27, edited 1 time in total.
SRoy
BRFite
Posts: 1938
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 06:45
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by SRoy »

Marut wrote:
SRoy wrote:
Sorry, no sympathy from me when these b**t***s are mowed down by trucks on highways or blown up by Naxals.
And pray tell us what have you done for the society to pass such a judgement?
Precisely, may I ask you what do you know about me? Unlike my background ... behaviour of police is an public knowledge, people face it daily.

To assure you, I'm not just an internet warrior like most of the crowd here. I've my hands full on ground with work that most of posters here wish someone to do (i.e. this is beside my regular job if you are not clear).
Marut wrote: I understand you are frustrated with the archaic practices still being followed but your anger is misdirected at those who ultimately ensure that there is some law & order maintained in this country. That cop who was mowed down by a truck was enforcing the writ of the Indian State against terrorists/arsonists wanting a Caliphate and the ones gunned down by the Naxals were ensuring that development reaches the remotest parts of our country, something the Naxals preach but practise opposite with deadly force.
I cross the Delhi-Gurgaon border everyday. I'll assure you that your beloved policemen who ought to doing policing are most content in extracting money from hapless commuters. Truck drivers have as a fact accepted that as a fate.

Why speak of ordinary people and incident, we were moving equipment to Delhi Police HQ at Delhi ITO last month ... I kid you not Delhi Police HQ, yes that the address.
Apparently (well that's until a phone call from from higher ups) the challan forms, gate passes were not enough for the mischiefmakers at the border, they wanted original invoice reciepts.
Do you retain original invoice reciepts for 3 year old equipments? What would have ordinary people done in that situation?

BTW, check the Internal Security thread. Your beloved policemen waited and watched as one little Islamic Calipahte in WB (in BRF parlance "oil droplet") took to massive rioting against Hindus.
Marut wrote: We have a long way to go in terms of reform and modernisation of our rules, especially police reforms but no need to piss on the very force which is securing you and safeguarding your way of life on a daily basis.
Sorry, please read the thread. I'm a regular poster on this thread. I work with Police people regularly for various IT projects. They are not interested in reform or modernization in contrary to what they profess. Read my older posts on various projects, you'll find out what I'm saying.

One myth is to be debunked. It is not about innocent low level policemen and callous higher ups. It is other way round. The higher ups are competent guys and it is the low level chaps that are the problem.

Please talk to senior police chaps they will explain. They readily admit that Naxal problem has in varying proportion roots in local police administration (or lack of it).

Finally, the rudeness and boorishness is of special degree among the policemen in NCR.
SRoy
BRFite
Posts: 1938
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 06:45
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by SRoy »

Sachin wrote:BTW, I have heard the same person who happily said that to get an NOC stamped on your RC Book (loan closed) all you need is to bribe a tout, criticise the RTO staff for being the most corrupt lot. All this within a matter of 10 minutes ;).
The RTO rules for NOC are not uniform all over India. This is one learning from my dealings in last couple of week.
SRoy
BRFite
Posts: 1938
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 06:45
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by SRoy »

Sachin wrote:BTW, I have heard the same person who happily said that to get an NOC stamped on your RC Book (loan closed) all you need is to bribe a tout, criticise the RTO staff for being the most corrupt lot. All this within a matter of 10 minutes ;).
The RTO rules for NOC are not uniform all over India. This is one learning from my dealings in last couple of week.

>>

However, all these rules and requirements (such as documentation) are not be interpreted literally. They are just guidelines. Let me narrate an example, personal one...also to illustrate as how accomodative these policemen become once the accountability is on their heads.

Here goes.

Years ago when I returned to Delhi to begin my professional life, I took a rented accomodation in West Delhi.

Applied for passport. In my absence the policemen came for verification and not finding me left a tasteless remark as I might be a Bangladeshi. Not surprising, these is how most NCR looks at Bengali migrant population in capital.

The poliemen turned up on Sunday (with the idea in mind that I really maybe a Bangladeshi). Well I replied back in Hindi/Haryanvi mixed accent that is prevalent in West Delhi. Initially shocked, the matter became clear to them when they looked at my CBSE certificates that says KV No. 1 Delhi Cantt. That is next door to their police station. The whole composure of those low lives changed.

Now came the ID proof and address verfication part. I said I just have the IAF issued dependent card. No futher questions. They accepted it.

The address part was interesting as they cannot simply say that they didn't find the applicant and on the other hand I didn't have any sarkari listed document either. After some 10-15 minutes the cops begin to show desperation. They were literally begging me to produce something that shows I was residing there. I asked them if the call up letters from SSB will suffice, they said yes, and seemed happy to comment that it was indeed an govt. document and will do the work.

>>

These people know that various rule, regulations and requirements are notwithstanding there are ways to assist people with genuine cases. Why don't they do it, unless directly answerable? They do the opposite i.e. make use of these regulations to harass the public.
archan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6823
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 21:30
Contact:

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by archan »

SRoy, the post I deleted was uncalled for. You can express your frustration (trust me, many of us have similar experiences from different departments of the govt.) but calling for death etc. is honestly, just paki. Take this as an unofficial warning. It is recorded in your user notes and can be taken against you in case any future incidents like these happen.
Thanks to the one who reported it. Guys, it is better to report posts than argue at times.
chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by chaanakya »

I always wondered why IT projects of DP is so crappy. Now it is clear to me.
SRoy
BRFite
Posts: 1938
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 06:45
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by SRoy »

archan wrote:SRoy, the post I deleted was uncalled for. You can express your frustration (trust me, many of us have similar experiences from different departments of the govt.) but calling for death etc. is honestly, just paki. Take this as an unofficial warning. It is recorded in your user notes and can be taken against you in case any future incidents like these happen.
Thanks to the one who reported it. Guys, it is better to report posts than argue at times.
Various posters have quoted the line that has got most of you excited. The subsequent replies to that line does not show that I called for anybody's death.

So first of all, your accusation is a straight faced lie.

Secondly, you could have deleted the line that you are uncomfortable with while letting stay the paragraphs that described a certain process...step by step. That description provides the background for rest of the posts.

BRF is becoming a forum where ball licking of sarkari departments equates patriotism. This thread is not the only one. EVM thread is another example. It is becoming a trend suitably facilitated by "moderators".
chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by chaanakya »

Sachin wrote:CCTNS - Crime and Criminal Tracking Network System. If we are talking about that, then I read in a report that the "Vegetable Oil Co." have got a deal signed.
IMHOs etc. added in.

Yeah, its WIPRO. Believe me they are quite competent.Though computers, I am not so happy about personally speaking.

CCTNS scope is being expanded from its initial mandate.
SRoy
BRFite
Posts: 1938
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 06:45
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by SRoy »

chaanakya wrote:I always wondered why IT projects of DP is so crappy. Now it is clear to me.
Yes. That true.

This happens when you award your projects to parties that fail to demonstrate even 50% of the use cases, while pushing away parties that meet the standards and requirements on spurious ground like cost or not being Indian.
Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 8963
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by Sachin »

SRoy wrote:Can you explain me as how you would be getting an address proof today (i.e. beforehand) if you are to move to Lucknow or Guwahati in next 10 days (consider that you do not work for any central or state departments)?
Was this requirement stated in the law? In that case we would have to follow that. Yes this must be a stupid law to have, but the police cannot change it. Only the elected representatives can bring that change.
Granted a low level cop is not in control of stupid policy as #1, what goes inside his mine to suppress the information at the first time but blurt it time at the 11th hour?
How are you sure that he suppressed the information? India's laws are so huge that even lawyers, judgers have to refer to books to see what laws are actually applicable and where. And how can we then expect police constables to be walking encylopedias in law?
You call something a policy which is not logically possible? We are not talking about sympathies, mine to policemen or vice-a-versa, we are talking about common sense stuff.
Fine sir! These policies etc. are not formulated by police men, especially the folks who are on the ground. And do you think in any country in this world a police man can happily stand up and say, he would only execute certain parts of the law, because he feels the others are illogical? If the laws are confusing, or is impractical or it is time consuming the ways to change them is through elected representatives.
Even why is it difficult to spell that directly in a simple English?
If my understanding of police recruiment is correct, a constable need to have to be 10th Std. pass for joining in. Sub Inspector (direct recruits) would be graduates. So at the best PC,HS,ASI may be able to converse in their native language and write statements in them.
I'll assure you that your beloved policemen who ought to doing policing are most content in extracting money from hapless commuters. Truck drivers have as a fact accepted that as a fate.
"Chicken and egg problem" :D. For every bribe taker there are folks who are willing to give the bribe. I hope NCR has not become such a dangerous area that hapless commutters and truck drivers who dont pay up/bribe are getting shot dead. We are assuming here that commuters and truck drivers are one group of baby angels who are ethical beyond doubt.

John 8:7 "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her".
Your beloved policemen waited and watched as one little Islamic Calipahte in WB (in BRF parlance "oil droplet") took to massive rioting against Hindus.
It has been proven time and again that policing in India is strongly connected with the ruling establishment of the state. The police men are not one group of armed robin hoods who are roaming around to save people in distress. Police in-action is just not because of policemen shirking work, it could be for very many other reasons which also have politics behind it.
They are not interested in reform or modernization in contrary to what they profess.
How different are they from other government departments? In my state every single government entity have found ways to scuttle any modernisation project. So this is not some thing unique to policing alone.
The higher ups are competent guys and it is the low level chaps that are the problem.
Then how come these competent folks are not able to control their men ;). BTW, police have very much strict disciplinary rules when compared to other government departments.


Need to sum this up. I guess pretty much every member who posts here knows that policing in India is not the best thing we have. There are problems, and that too in very many areas. That include political setup, the police leadership, the police men and also the society in general. To lay the blame squarely on the heads of one group of people in this "problem set" would not get us moving forward.
SRoy
BRFite
Posts: 1938
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 06:45
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Police Reform

Post by SRoy »

Sachin wrote:
SRoy wrote:Can you explain me as how you would be getting an address proof today (i.e. beforehand) if you are to move to Lucknow or Guwahati in next 10 days (consider that you do not work for any central or state departments)?
Was this requirement stated in the law? In that case we would have to follow that. Yes this must be a stupid law to have, but the police cannot change it. Only the elected representatives can bring that change.
I handled the paperwork for a colleague that shifted to Bangalore few months ago (March). There was no such requirement then.
The Delhi Police website doesn't speaks of any such requirement.
The RTO office itself doesn't talks of any such requirement on the information boards nor did the cop said any such thing when I submitted the NCRB verification request.

What do we conclude?
Is it a requirement (as in the case I discussed above) in Kerala?

As I said, there is no uniformity of such rules in India. Its upto the whims and fancies of local officials. And such arbitrary rules only encourages corrupt cops at lower levels.
Post Reply