Indian Roads Thread

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 05 Jan 2015 06:30

Lawns do reduce CO_2 and increase O. RamaY, you are missing the point. Are lawns better than trees? Is either one or both better than shrubs? Lot of big data, Analytics, modelling and computation to perform, sire.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jan 2015 06:58

trees is better than lawns and shrubs on the count of safety! a tree could block a bulldozing truck jumping lanes and crashing over to the other side.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 05 Jan 2015 07:02

You never want large trees near high speed expressways. There is a safety reason from falling trees in storms etc. A proper guardrail has a better chance of saving occupants of trucks jumping lanes by keeping it "in" and not crossing over. Hitting a tree is a death sentence otoh.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jan 2015 08:17

you have a valid counter point. but the higher the speed way is limited, the larger should be the bisection and shoulders. heck, death is certain if you get in to any type of accident at high speeds.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Jan 2015 09:32

Gents, those trees will be next to all highways like they are now in a lot of areas - I think even State Highways. Expressways are a very small percentage of the the National Highways grid.

On large medians forming part of the Golden Quadrilateral and East West Corridor, I have seen people start Tea / Pan shops, cycle repair shops, small huts for living, even small kitchen garden type of farming - Such is the pressure on our land.

These are scary sights but they exist. The shrubs planted by NHAI did not stop these folks. Trees cannot be planted either as they won't make it. Fire wood!!!

The plan is I think on the sides of highways, specially the two lane highways. At least the trees can be fenced which will stop construction of houses close to the highway.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jan 2015 09:50

good points on the paan shops and daabas.. gov should plan ahead for providing cheap buildings for such use. all well laid out

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 06 Jan 2015 21:10

One argument that goes against the trees in war time is that when viewed from top (Satellite, camera, etc) you can easily identify the road and target a moving caravan.

On the other hand if trees are planted on the edges of the farm (each acre)., they help with reducing the water intake (by providing shade) of the crop and also help with overall eco system.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 06 Jan 2015 21:11

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jan 2015 22:14

in a billion caravan economy, which van will the satellite system will track on? again standardization of signatures of mil and civil vehicles helps there... we have to prioritize our needs, and tradeoff many things. we can't be building a framework for an eventuality, but for actual use... and as long as it does not significantly expose a security setup.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Jan 2015 22:55

Trees are Zone 3 objects. Transition Zone. They are considered a hazard and typically behind a crash barrier or 100’ back from Zone 1.

There are many reasons for this as several folks have pointed out. One item not mentioned is the damage their roots can do to the sub-grade and to drainage. Such damage can cost very heavily at time of repaving. If trees are to be planted it needs to be designed in from the very beginning . More land acquired, properly contained, maintenance budgeted, etc. It not wise to randomly retrofit. Certainly should not be done by un-professional day labor types. Tree planting in a modern environment should be designed and handled by professionals.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jan 2015 07:56

something we can consider too like in netherlands

construction would be easy when the rivers are dry!

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 17 Jan 2015 03:47

SaiK wrote:something we can consider too like in netherlands

construction would be easy when the rivers are dry!

I think a bridge is more cost effective.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 17 Jan 2015 04:25

The construction cost of a modern 3 lanes highway of international standard is between 6-7 to 20 million dollars per km, Hence the cost of 54 CR pr km is a fair price. We need such a higway from Mumbai to Delhi, covering Gujrat and Rajastan. Rajastan should be plastered with solar panels to provide power to the 20-30 smart cities that can be build along the way. It can transform India. They call it the Delhi mumbai industrial corridor or something.

a wet dream

Mumbai-Ahemedabad-udaipur, Ajmer, Jaipur-Delhi
roads 2000 Km or super highway cost 110 000 Cr
Super Fast train 200 km per hour (not HSR). About 50 000 Cr
Port expansion at Mumbai and Hazira port 10 000 Cr

Mumbai, Nasik, Gwalior, Agra, Delhi.
Road 1200 Km 70 000 Cr
Train 30 000 Cr

Delhi - Lucknow - Patna - Kolkata
Roads 1200 Km 70 000 Cr
train 30 000 Cr

Chennai - Bangalore - Maysore
Roads 500 Km 25 000 Cr
train 10 000 Cr

Hydrabad - Nagpur
Roads 400 KM 20 000 Cr
train 10 000 Cr

Total Cost 435 000 Cr for fist stage transformation.

Some 50 billion dollars. It should be doable. 10 billion per year over 5 years. India sends some 50 billion dollars to Jihadfinancers per year.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 17 Jan 2015 04:37

Rishirishi wrote:
SaiK wrote:something we can consider too like in netherlands

construction would be easy when the rivers are dry!

I think a bridge is more cost effective.

this allows much bigger ships to pass through than an average bridge would. Remember, ships get narrower the closer they get to the water level. For example, look at pictures of Panama Canal.

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 19 Jan 2015 20:51

Are India’s superhighway plans on the road to nowhere?

The $2bn fast road from Delhi to Agra remains empty, revealing how India’s motoring culture remains stuck in first gear

http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2015/ ... delhi-agra

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 19 Jan 2015 21:43

If you build highways first they will say nobody uses it. If not they will say they don't build infra in India. I still remember how the lefties started howling about fascists building highways which doesn't make economic sense nor is necessary when the Mumbai-Pune expressway was build. That was all over the national and international press. Today I hear there are traffic jams on that e-way. The YE is a classic case of robber baron capitalism. The Gaurs build it in exchange for built up space along the e-way during Mayawati regime. Ofcourse Maya and her cronies have likely got something in exchange. On the positive side this will be a huge development as Noida-like cities are going to be build along the e-way. That is their business model. The first one is YEIDA which is under construction adjacent to greater Noida. The Gaurs have sold many of the land parcels at a premium. You can compare this with the robber baron capitalism that build western US.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jan 2015 06:14

well I am not sure about the larger ships.. it all depends on the draft measure of the ships.

the roads must have to go much deeper than what is shown on the pic.. the road decent should have started at least 50 meters away from the main bridge structures.

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 20 Jan 2015 17:13

Supratik,

You are right about the "robber baron capitalism" comparison. There was a TV series a short while ago called "The men who built America". It was the same sort of thing.

No nation can develop without modern high capacity roads/highways and air/sea ports.
There was a similar article in the al guardian a short while ago about the new, New Delhi airport. The link is now dead, but the last paragraph stated "some have questioned the price in a country with so much poverty"

The American economy never developed until its highways and railways, sea/airports developed.

They just seek to moan about something.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 20 Jan 2015 19:31

The American economy never developed until its highways and railways, sea/airports developed.

Ford started with Cars assembly line after Benz created a gasoline driven motor engine. , This caused cars to become muddy on the horse tracks and thus Highway system during the great depression!

Technology and innovation is always first and before any increase in economic activity! Never forget this!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... d_Highways

In USA., Highways that goes north-south are Odd while highways that goes East-West are Even.

Boston to Miami is Highway 95
Chicago to New Orleans is 55
Jacksonville to San Diego is 10
San diego to Seattle is 5
Boston to Seattle is 90
Boston to San Francisco is 80

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jan 2015 03:44

India should evangelize lego model building blocks for roads. Distribute manufacturing of blocks to villages, and get them participating in a big-bang road infrastructure change.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 16 Mar 2015 20:38

X post from the goberment achievements thread

Rahul M wrote:
ramana wrote:One problem with cement roads is they crack due to repeated impact of heavy load carrying trucks. Each time a truck goes over a segment/joint it creates an impact compression wave in the concrete. The impact wave gets reflected as a tension wave at the joint. Concrete is good in compression but not tension. This leads to breakage. One solution is to use high strength cement and or add epoxy additives.
a frequent complaint by desi drivers is that cement roads result in much more wear and tear for tires, increasing their running costs.

the yamuna expressway is almost abandoned due to this belief. very few use it. I wonder if resident civil yinjineers can throw more light on the issue.

I learned few things while searching for an answer so thanks for asking this

Tyres key to safe driving on Yamuna Expressway

NEW DELHI: Recurring blowouts on the Yamuna Expressway and the resultant accidents have raised safety concerns among tourists and other users headed for Agra. But experts say the higher-than-usual rate of tyre failure on the expressway results from high speed and the cement-concrete road surface.

About 85% of the road is built with cement-concrete, which causes greater heating than bitumen used in city roads. So, the faster you drive, the greater the chance of a tyre overheating and bursting.

TOI explains how to keep your tyres expressway-worthy for a safe journey:

Experts say car tyres should be checked minutely before heading down an expressway. Each car must also carry a spare tyre in good condition. "Cement concrete roads are harder than bituminous roads, which results in lesser rolling resistance of the tyres. While this means that the friction is more as it is a rigid pavement, it also means that there is slightly more chance of heating of tyres," explained PK Sikdar, former director of CRRI. The nylon threads inside radial tyres heat up due to friction, especially on long journeys at a high speed.

The first safeguard against tyre heating is to maintain proper inflation. "Optimum air pressure in tyres must be maintained for proper control. If it is below the correct limit, the tyre footprint will be more, and can result in overheating due to friction. If it is too high, the footprint will be smaller, resulting in reduced control," said SP Singh, convener of All-India Tyre Dealers Federation. The optimum pressure depends on the car model.

Experts also recommend filling nitrogen in tyres for greater durability. Tyres filled with nitrogen need to be topped up only once in six months.

Car owners must also make sure that the 'tread wear indicator' (TWI), marked on the side of each tyre is intact. The tyre should never wear down to the indicator (which is usually about 1.6mm of tread thickness). It should be replaced before that happens, say experts. The wheel alignment and balancing should also be checked regularly. This is a computerized process and ensures that wear and tear does not occur disproportionately.

"Check for suppression or cracking in tyres. Such a defect has to be fixed by the manufacturer and the tyre should be sent to them immediately. Users shouldn't use old, repaired or patch-worked tyres, especially on high-speed corridors," added Singh.

It is also a good idea to break the journey as travelling at consistently high speed along the 165km expressway takes a toll on the tyres, overheating them.

Moar info about Tyre Wear and Nitrogen Inflation

Tyre breakdown is incremental to a temperature increase and a complete breakdown occurs at temperatures in the region of 170°C.

Given the hot conditions in India and driving at high speeds on the highway it's no surprise the tyres are reaching their breakdown limit.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Mar 2015 10:16

there are a lot of non-radial tubed tyres still used in India. and almost none of the commercial taxi ops pay attention to keeping tyres replaced...its common to see tyres totally bald.

for expressway speed, R rated tyres are the minimal safe std, esp since people like to floor it here and drive like yahoos @ 150kmph even on NHAI 4 laned roads.

in massa, no car is sold with below R rated tyres imo.

also a lot of cheaper sub standard chinese made "grey market" tyres are floating in the market. perhaps quite popular with taxis looking to keep costs down. they are also in habit of patching up punctures without limit using the rubbery ribbon type thing. in massa I dont think they encourage this practice except as a emergency short duration fix.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 17 Mar 2015 10:18

With the crude price down does it not make asphalt top cheaper today?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 17 Mar 2015 12:41

Surprising. Parts of urban texas roads are concrete and these freeways have higher speed limits than indian highways. Why do we see so many overheating problems in indian tyres then? Texas isn't exactly cold.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Mar 2015 19:54

I explained why above.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 17 Mar 2015 21:44

Singha is right. It's not about the road surface. It's about the tyres. Even if the surface was smooth asphalt, there'll be accidents from tire blowouts. caused by cars being driven well beyond the tyres' load and speed capacities.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 17 Mar 2015 22:32

Ah sorry. Reading fail.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 18 Mar 2015 09:45

This youtube video is likely India. Can anyone figure out which city this is at/near? The human carnage is horrifying.

niran · Post by **niran** » 18 Mar 2015 11:12

ramana wrote:One problem with cement roads is they crack due to repeated impact of heavy load carrying trucks. Each time a truck goes over a segment/joint it creates an impact compression wave in the concrete. The impact wave gets reflected as a tension wave at the joint. Concrete is good in compression but not tension. This leads to breakage. One solution is to use high strength cement and or add epoxy additives.

Given the hot conditions in India and driving at high speeds on the highway it's no surprise the tyres are reaching their breakdown limit.

there was a time when i drove 135km one way every day i averaged 50 minutes morning and 38 minutes returning that makes it over 150 kmph no? the road is still concrete cement for 3 years never saw or had any Tyre blowouts that so called eggspert opinion is just eggspurt, the best Tyre needs a change at around 55000 km (private cars not trucks or taxi they need it at 35000 km) or 3 years whichever comes first. do that and will not have Tyre blowout on highways.

the average temperature in my neck of woods is 36 degree centigrade minimum is 21 maximum 48 go figure

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 18 Mar 2015 14:52

ldev wrote:This youtube video is likely India. Can anyone figure out which city this is at/near? The human carnage is horrifying.

90% of the accidents are due to the blatant recklessness of two wheelers & commercial vehicles (trucks/buses). I have seen people on bikes just zipping from nowhere to the middle of a busy highway. I fail to understand why they would do this? Death wish? This happened with me on Delhi-Jaipur highway, idiots zipping left, right & center with their eyes closed. And then when an oncoming passenger vehicle crushes them, the villagers will either resort to violence or extortion. I know its wrong to say but many people in that video deserved their fate.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 18 Mar 2015 19:36

Doesn't the simple idea, look before you enter/cross/turn/overtake, occur to them? What kind of driver training did they receive?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Mar 2015 06:34

None. No test or training.just paid tout in rto and got dl.

Main problem none are willing to slow down and play percentage game.
Any yielding is a sign of weakness and overtaking a prestige issue.

A great lack of physics knowledge as well.

Itvity munna plus swift is also a feared warrior.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 19 Mar 2015 07:03

That video is hard to watch, some of the blame can also be attributed to poor design of that crossing at a high speed corridor.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 19 Mar 2015 07:17

This is actually a pan India problem. Most accidents are small enough so dont get reported.

Two BIG highways cut through a village next to my ancestral place. And by cut, I mean CUT. i.e. there is no way one can go from one side to the other without actually crossing an intersection like that.

There is no place for foot crossing as well. I wonder what kind of jackasses would put a 120kmph road through a village and forget to put overpasses/underpasses for local vehicular/foot traffic to get on with their daily lives.

Added later:
No one ever builds an intersection without signals that has a 120kmph road cutting what looks like a 30kmph road at right angles, without proper traffic control mechanisms. What are they trying to do here? Population reduction?

I am attempting to complete that video (much easier to watch a jeehadi explode his soosai truck bomb than to watch fellow country men getting butchered like this

).

I also see that the jackasses driving the bikes cross the intersection at RIGHT angle with no speed reduction. There should be proper training on merging into big roads.

This behavior is only to be expected since most roads in India were never built for such speeds, they were mostly small intersections where people can easily negotiate with a couple of honks and some "adjust maadi" style maneuvering.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Mar 2015 11:21

in some stretches like krishnagiri - salem - madurai, mostly all such roads have overpasses and merging lanes on both sides.
in others there is no overpasses. trucks and buses sometimes drive wrong side to save time and distance.

my cook was saying a man died in his bihar village this week.
picked up a long bamboo on his shoulder and walked out perpendicularly onto the NH
vehicle hit pole
pole hit neck
he died.

there are some Jns like this in Blr-mysore-madikeri SH, which has got approval for 6 laning and town bypasses now.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 20 Mar 2015 00:28

Basic system of right of way, with stop signs and of course adherence to these rules is lacking along with enforcement of rules that do exist.

Almost the entire video was of relatively high speed traffic and no lights. By high speed, i mean it is not city type of stop and go traffic area. The vehicles in the accidents were never designed for these high speeds with traction control tyres, good braking systems and the basic ability of a vehicle to serve at high speed without loss of control, the people drive on these roadways as if they are in the middle of city, where a lot of juggad is done to get ahead a few meters. This juggad approach with no rules followed is inviting death on these roads.

It was painful to watch that video. What is needed are rules, tools (stop signs, lights, lane markers, etc), training, standards for vehicles and enforcement. Any state governments out there doing a decent job of this, outside of city zones?

Let me ask a basic question. What does it take to put a stop sign on a road by the local administration?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 20 Mar 2015 00:54

Pretty much every accident is about the unfortunate driver getting T-boned from the side. The road geometry itself doesn't seem to be terrible. Perhaps there could be a better turn lane in the faster road where vehicles can wait to turn into the T . But all the accidents are caused by inability to comprehend right of way, grasp the speed of the crossing traffic, or a combination of the two. I don't know how stop signs and even stop lights can fix this. Either could be just as easily ignored.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 20 Mar 2015 01:10

Stop lights or even just signs may not fix it entirely. Even merging safely in not being accomplished by drivers as seen in a few cases above. This is due to mix of vehicles at widely varying operating speeds. Will need to keep them separate, there is no other way. Overpasses are a must for areas with pedestrian or even two wheeler crossings.

As for four-wheelers yes they need re-training on traffic etiquette.

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 20 Mar 2015 01:20

That was pretty grim to watch.

Road education is vital and needs to be institutionalised. Begining at High School.
All Rickshaw, bus, taxi and truck drivers need to be re trained.
If they are not willing to then they should loose their licences, the same goes for the actual companies, state owned companies should take the lead.
Are Indian cinemas required to show Public Information films Before and half way through their films?
That would be a great way of putting road safety messages out.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 20 Mar 2015 09:06

Only way out is grade separation at that particular junction. Anything else will get summarily ignored

btw, an Oz immigrant friend here in Trivandrum (a rare Indo-phile from that nation!) says for a nation that has incredible self-preservation skills, he is amazed at the lack of ANY self preservation instincts when it comes to driving in India. Had to agree on that part, after watching such videos. There is nothing going on in our lives, that warrants not looking on both sides of that highway and crossing over a few seconds later