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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2012 13:56 
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abhishek_sharma wrote:
Well, a farm is a confined place. I don't think we have the right to force animals to do whatever we please. We are already doing so. Maybe we should control our urge to believe that all resources of this planet belongs to our baap and we have the right to pontificate on what other species should and shouldn't do.


Saar, cow is a domesticated animal already not a wild species. Raising it in a proper environment (I am not saying we should lock them up in cells!!) with sufficient space and other amenities outside the city would be better for the animal, no?

You still haven't answered my question about whether the cow roaming around in the city is good for the cow itself?
Let me reiterate:
1) What's it going to eat in the city?
2) What is it going to drink?
3) Where is it going to rest?
4) How is it going to avoid traffic/noise pollution/dangerous objects

Considering the answers to the above, does the cow fare BETTER in a city compared to a safe and controlled environment outside the city?

Also what about stray dogs biting toddlers?
What is more important to you - the safety and well being of a toddler/senior citizen or the 'right' of a stray dog to do whatever the *&%$ it wants?


Quote:
How about reducing pollution in cities? hain?

First of all, we have the chutzpah to pollute the environment, which affects other species. And then, we enforce more conditions on animals to protect them from its consequences. sahi hai.


We are on the same page here. Pollution must be reduced. The quality of life for city dwellers must be improved. Isn't that what we are all supporting?

Relocating cows from the city streets is one of the steps.

There are several other steps involving better roads, better sanitation, better city planning, better public transport instead of private, low pollution vehicles, relocation of factories away from residential/commercial areas etc. Any sane poster will support these steps.

I'll let you in on a 'secret'. For 40+ years until the early 2000s, my grandfather's family always owned 3-4 cows and raised them on our ancestral land in a town near Thrissur. The land/house was not smack in the middle of the city, but on the periphery beside one of the main roads. There was heavy traffic on the road.

The cows were given royal status as most Brahmin households do to cows. The cows were cleaned properly, were regularly checked by the local vet who was a family friend, they had spacious land for roaming, clean drinking water, shady trees for resting under etc. In short they were happy, contented cows.

I strongly suspect they wouldn't have been so happy if they were left to fend for themselves on the hot baking roads, dodging the genocidal KSRTC buses, without access to clean food and water.

Unfortunately, a few years after my grandfather passed away in 2000, the extended family decided to move into individual houses; the cows were sold to a neighbour (my grandmother was in tears! but atleast the neighbours looked after the cows properly) and the cowshed was converted into a storage shed :roll:



Quote:
Ya'Allah...why did you allow the creation of Salman Taseer University of Higher-order lahori Logic.

There is a consensus on the terms and conditions for ownership of property and value of labor among human beings (not animals). We just displaced animals from where they used to live. We expect them to follow rules made by us which are overwhelmingly in our favor.
[/quote]

But..but.. these terms and conditions are artificial constructs by humans, not in tune with the natural free-for-all outlook for humans + animals. :mrgreen:
Mian, I was just messing with you, don't reply to this part... :P


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2012 14:06 
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The hyperventilation about cows is simply a western influence.

In India, of the traffic issues. Cows are the least.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2012 14:27 
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Digging for info on the GoI websites is quite interesting...there are a lot of useful tidbits on the PIB site as official press releases.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/efeatures.aspx?relid=78156

Quote:
In the automotive sector parlance, passive safety features refer to systems designed to minimise injury to the occupants in the event of a crash as against active safety systems that help drivers avoid accidents. It is important to equip a vehicle with both active and passive safety features.

The Automotive Industry in India has been one of the key drivers of economic growth, with a CAGR of over 15% during the last 7 years. In 2010-11, the total turnover of the Industry stood at USD 73 Billion(Rs. 3,27,300 cr.) 8) and its contribution to the Manufacturing GDP and the excise duty was 22% and 21% respectively. Today, India is the largest manufacturer of tractors, second largest manufacturer of two wheelers, 5th largest manufacturer of commercial vehicles and is an emerging global automotive hub. 8) The Indian automotive sector is now widely recognized for its enormous potential to be a growth engine and propel the country on a high growth path.

While the growth story, both in retrospect and prospect, sounds impressive and exciting, it also poses several areas of concern and challenges. Increasing urbanization and motorization, rapid development of road infrastructure, introduction of faster vehicles and the changing driving pattern have brought to the fore the problem of increasing number of injuries and mortalities resulting from road traffic accidents. As per an estimate, about 125,000 people die and 450,000 get injured in India every year due to Road Traffic accidents.

Road Traffic Accident which used to be the tenth among the top ten causes of mortality in the country two decades back, is projected to occupy the fifth position in the list of major killers in the year 2020. :( :evil: Some of the factors that increase the risk of road crashes in India are unsafe traffic environment, poor road infrastructure, increasing number of motorized vehicles, lack of safety engineering measures and unsafe driving behaviour. Improving prevention and mitigation of road traffic incidents in a low-income country like India will help to better use its scarce resources.

Road Safety is a multi-sectoral and multi-dimensional issue encompassing the development and management of road infrastructure, design of safer vehicles, legislation and law enforcement, mobility planning, urban land use planning etc. In other words, its ambit spans engineering aspects of both roads and vehicles on one hand and the provision of post crash healthcare on the other.

World over, Nations have initiated various measures towards their commitment to check fatalities due to road accidents by way of improvement of roads, vehicle design, strengthening of active and passive safety systems and campaigns regarding safe driving.

Under the National Automotive Testing and R&D Infrastructure Project (NATRiP), three crash labs are being set up where vehicles will be tested for their crash worthiness. With the commissioning of these crash labs by 2012, India will be equipped to design, develop and certify vehicles which conform to newly evolving safety standards. Notification for new crash regulations are under formulation. Crash test ratings will also generate awareness among the buyers to make informed decision on buying a vehicle keeping in view the safety features of the vehicle. {Excellent step}

It is now required to incorporate latest technologies and safety regulations to ensure reduction of road traffic injuries through passive safety measures in particular. The emphasis is to make Indian roads much safer.



BTW, while it is all easy to resort to righteous indignation, trivialization of the numbers, statistical massaging, scoring internet debate brownie points, etc to promote one's agenda either way, please remember one thing: ~160,000 Indians died a miserable death on the roads last year. 500,000 more Indians were injured, many with permanent disabilities.

These are fellow citizens who died.

Let those numbers sink in for a moment: 100,000-160,000 is the population of a small town. Wiped out every year for the past few years. :shock:
If this is 'not a problem', then nothing in India is a problem!
We are all living in paradise onlee!!

Don't forget this in the rush to preserve H&D and defend the 'Indic-soop-e-riority' of the current urban/road situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2012 14:47 
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Purush wrote:
Let those numbers sink in for a moment: 100,000-160,000 is the population of a small town. Wiped out every year for the past few years. :shock:

Don't forget this in the rush to preserve H&D and defend the 'Indic-soop-e-riority' of the current urban/road situation.


No boss, the issue here is not H&D. You just dont get it that its not about H&D.

It is about identitfying and solving the real problems.

And I dont think any Indian living in India is unaware of the real issues -- its just that some Indians wake up only after BBC says "holy cows" and they go into paroxysms of "cows on the road, OMG OMG. Bad traffic OMG OMG" --

I posted ONE very scholarly study by a IIT prof. As expected. ZERO reaction.

After all One Indian making a lot of prosaic sense about India -- where is the thrill of self flagellation on firangi criticism hain jee. After all we need to do a "nanga naach" (naked dance) to show how much we are ahead of the unwashed hordes that compose of India.
:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2012 15:06 
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Car Crashes Kill 40,000 in U.S. Every Year
Extrapolating to a population of 1.17 billion that is about 160,000 a year

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reported_R ... at_Britain
UK has 2000 deaths a year. Extrapolating to a population of 1 billion that is about 40,000 per year

http://www.car-accidents.com/country-ca ... crash.html
Quote:
The WHO study reported that the actual number of fatalities on China's roads is more than twice the offical figure or about 250,000 killed each year. This study estimates that 45,000 people are injured and 680 killed on China's roads each day


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2012 15:11 
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UK man does not buy meat. Lives on roadkill

Quote:
Road kill man eats rat stew and hedgehog casserole

Rat stew, fox cub fricassee, hedgehog casserole – no it's not a medieval banquet, they're the main courses at Jonathan McGowan's roadkill dinner parties.

The 41-year-old trawls the streets near his home looking for fresh, pre-minced remains of small mammals, also including badgers, snakes and mice.
Rat stew is the order of the day for Jonathan McGowan Rat stew is the order of the day for Jonathan McGowan

After scraping them off the Tarmac, he cooks the rubber-tinged meat with ingredients such as garlic, onions and sultanas to serve up dishes including tawny owl tikka masala and heron bolognese to unwitting guests.

"I go out as often as I can to pick up the night's victims," the taxidermist said.

"Whenever I have friends round, I serve up dinner and they say, ;Ooh that's lovely, what is it?' and I tell them.



UK roadkill chart
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2012 15:30 
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Shiv,

I have posted all those figures from WHO showing that Indian traffic was in tune with the developed countries traffic. and Purush himself reposted all those figures in this thread,....


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2012 15:33 
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Virupaksha wrote:
Shiv,

I have posted all those figures from WHO showing that Indian traffic was in tune with the developed countries traffic. and Purush himself reposted all those figures in this thread,....


Well Purush claims that road victims are only those who are in a vehicle :roll: (read registered vehicles onlee :roll: ) thus only the numbers of vehicles is a suitable indicator of road use. :roll:

In Purush's world, Bicylces are kept away from all the roads, for humanistic purposes, just like cows, pedestrians, tractor trolleys, tuk-tuks and modified people carriers. Un registered low engine cc bikes etc. Same for ox-carts, camel carts, and donkey carts.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2012 16:39 
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Doc, China having 2x the reported accident rate is almost certainly true.

As usual the cheenis would have fudged the numbers to show 'improvement' for 'saving face' especially when compared with India, just like they do with their economic data.
They had very high fatality rates even just a few years ago, it is very unlikely that they miraculously improved overnight unless some chipanda statistician simply started making up numbers.

Virupaksha ji, I have found the 2010 MoRTH report; it's on their website. Will go through it and post later as I have to leave the office now.
GoI is awesome in so many ways...they meticulously collect and keep so much data. 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2012 17:24 
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Purush wrote:
GoI is awesome in so many ways...they meticulously collect and keep so much data. 8)



How does this square with the IITian profs statement that we need to improve the data collection to come up with target solution?

Oh I am sorry, I am letting facts get in the way of unfounded opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2012 21:07 
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Apologies in advance for the formatting. It was a quick copy-paste job.

Folks, See some data from the 2010 Road Safety report published by the Min. of Road Transport and Highways, India.
You can download the pdf from here
http://morth.nic.in/showfile.asp?lid=761

Virupaksha ji, WRT to the previous discussion on whether fatalities per population or fatalities per (# of)
vehicles should be used, and if the fatalities per vehicle-km might be a 'better' indicator. Unfortunately,
this report doesn't include that data. :(
It does include fatalities per road length interestingly.

Some excerpts from the report.

Quote:
Motor vehicle population has grown at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 10 per
cent 2000-2009, during fueled by a rising tide of motorization. Concomitantly, traffic risk and
exposure have grown. During the year 2010, there were around 5 lakh road accidents, which
resulted in deaths of 134,513 people and injured more than 5 lakh persons in India. These
numbers translate into 1 road accident every minute, and 1 road accident death every four
minutes.


Quote:
The loss to the Indian economy due to fatalities and accident injuries estimated at 3% of
GDP in 1999-2000 is particularly severe as 53.1% of road accident victims were in the age group
of 25 to 65 years in 2010, with pedestrians, bicyclists and two-wheelers, who comprise the most
unprotected road users, accounting for around 40% of all fatalities.



Quote:
 The number of total accidents reported in 2010 was 499,628. After a moderate increase
of 0.35% during 2009, the number of accidents reported during 2010 showed a growth of
2.72 % as compared with accidents reported in the year 2009.
The number of persons killed increased by 7 per cent during 2010 in comparison to 4.8
per cent during 2009.
:(
 The number of persons injured which had recorded a decline of 1.5 per cent during 2009,
increased by 2.3 per cent during 2010.
The total number of road accidents, injuries and deaths increased at CAGR of 2.5%, 2.8%
and 5.5%, respectively, between the years 2000 and 2010.



Quote:
During 2010, 499,628 road accidents were reported by all States/ Union Territories (UTs)
(Chart 1). Of these, about 23.9% (119,558) were fatal accidents. The number of persons killed
in road accidents was 134,513, i.e. an average of one fatality per 3.7 accidents.
{1.12 people killed per 'fatal accident'?}

The proportion
of fatal accidents in total road accidents has consistently increased since 2001 from 17.6% to
23.9% in 2010 (Table 2). :-? The severity of road accidents, measured in terms of persons killed per
100 accidents, has also increased from 19.9 in 2001 to 26.9 in 2010.

Image

Quote:
Number of accidents per lakh population increased from 21.2 in 1970 to 22.8 in 1980,
followed by a sharp increase to 33.8 in 1990. Between 1995 and 2005, the figures
fluctuated in the range of 38 to 40; moving above 42 in recent years (2007 and 2008); a
slight dip to 41.9 in 2009, followed by a rise to 42.5 in 2010. Between 1970 and 2010,
there was an increase of more than 100% (Chart 2).

Image

Quote:
A significant decline {AoA!}in the number of accidents per ten thousand motor vehicles is
discernible from 814 in 1970, 339 in 1980, 148 in 1990, 80 in 2000 and further to 42 in
2009 i.e. decline of almost 95 % since 1970 (Chart 3).

Image

Quote:
The trend in the number of accidents per ten thousand kilometres of the road length
shows that the number of accidents have increased over the last few decades, from 960 in
1970 to 1,027 in 1980; peaked to 1,424 in 1990; but declined thereafter, fluctuating
within a band of 1,100 to 1,200 per ten thousand kilometres. For the latest year 2008, the
figure stood at 1,179
(Chart 4).

Image

Part-II

Quote:
There has been more than three-fold increase in the number of persons injured per lakh of
population from 13 in 1970 to 44.8 in 2010 (Chart 5). Similarly, persons killed per lakh
of population jumped four-fold from 2.7 in 1970 to 11.4 in 2010 (Chart 6).

Exposure of
population to road accidents leading to deaths and injuries largely depends on the amount
of travel undertaken, defined as the number of trips, the distance travelled, or time in the
road environment, number of motor vehicles and the amount of motorized traffic, etc
.
These factors are associated with development and income levels.

In high income
countries, risk of road accidents arising out of these factors have been reduced through
effective road safety engineering, traffic management, enforcement of traffic laws and the
severity of penalties for infringement.

Image
Image

Quote:
As regards number of persons injured and killed per 10,000 vehicles the decline has been
dramatic.
{AoA!} To some extent, the decline in this parameter has been brought about by
improvements in vehicle crashworthiness and occupant protection.
8)

The number of
persons injured per 10,000 vehicles has plummeted from 500 in 1970 to about 45 in 2009
(Chart 7). It is noteworthy that this parameter has consistently declined since 1996
despite sustained high growth in vehicle population. Similarly, the number of persons
killed per 10,000 vehicles in the country has also fallen from about 104 in 1970 to less
than 11 in 2009 (Chart 8). However, injuries and deaths per 10,000 motor vehicles as a
parameter has a limitation as it does not capture road related accidents and deaths
connected with non-motorized forms of transport which are significant in rural areas.
{Which brings us back to the question: what is a reasonably good metric?}


Image

Quote:
The number of persons injured and killed per ten thousand kilometres of road length has
more than doubled since 1970. Modern road systems are largely designed for the motor
vehicles exposing vulnerable road users to greater risk of accidents.
In developing
countries, lack of foot-paths, service lanes, cycle tracks, traffic calming measures to
reduce speed where non motorized mode of transport blend with motorized traffic,
increases the risk of accidents and its severity. These factors have contributed towards
increase in road related accidents, injuries and deaths in relation to rise in terms of road
length. High-income countries have made progress in providing facilities for pedestrians
and cyclists alongwith speed reduction schemes, thereby weakening the nexus between
road accidents, injuries and deaths with expansion in road network.


The numbers of
persons injured per ten thousand kilometres of road length have risen from 590 in 1970 to
1,273 in 2008 (Chart 9); similarly persons killed per ten thousand kilometres of road
length more than doubled from 122 in 1970 to 292 in 2008 (Chart 10). However, both
these parameters have witnessed ups and downs over the last decade.

Image
Image

A few more charts. Please refer to the pdf for detailed info.

Image
Image
Image


Quote:
Occupants of (i) two-wheelers, (ii) passenger cars and taxis, (iii) trucks and (iv) buses accounted
for 26.2%, 15.5%, 13.3% and 8.3%, respectively, of total road fatalities.

Bicycle riders (4.6%)
and pedestrians (8.7%) are the most unprotected road users and have to share scarce road space
with motorized vehicles of different engine power and speed resulting in serious conflicts within
traffic flows.


Quote:
The high socio-economic cost of the injuries and fatalities, occurring due to road
accidents, and the need for effective policies for curbing road accidents make it imperative to
study the causes of road accidents.

The analysis of road accidents in terms of causal factors
reveals that drivers’ fault is the single most important factor responsible for accidents, fatalities
and injuries. Drivers’ fault accounted for 78.0 % (389,885 accidents) of total accidents; 74.6 %
(100,319) of the total number of persons killed and 79.8 % (420,823) of the total number of
persons injured in road accidents during 2010 (Chart 22).


The fault of the cyclists and that of the
pedestrians appears to be of a marginal consequence accounting for a share of 1.2 % and 2.7 %,
respectively in road accidents during 2010.
Similarly, cyclists and pedestrians were responsible
for about 1.3 % and 2.6 %, respectively, of total number of persons killed in road accidents.
Defects in the motor vehicles caused 1.7 % of road accidents and 2.3 % of fatalities in road
accidents


This data which compares fatalities per 100,000 of the population confirms what Virupaksha posted yesterday.

Quote:
Cross country comparisons of incidence of road accident related deaths and injury
accidents per lakh persons as per World Road Statistics 2010 (published by International Road
Federation, Geneva) showed lower incidence of both the parameters for India in comparison to
many developed and developing countries.

The number of road accident deaths per lakh of
population at 10.8 in India
was much lower compared with 12.08 in the Republic of Korea,
12.25 in USA and the Russian Federation (21.06) (Chart 23).

The highest number of deaths per lakh of population was reported for Anguilla (31.25) in 2007, followed closely by South Africa (31.18)in 2007.
For the year 2008, Malaysia reported the highest figure of 24.16 and the Philippines
reported the lowest number of deaths per lakh population at 1.21 in 2008.

Countries which showed lower persons killed per 100,000 population were Japan (4.04), United Kingdom (4.13), Germany (5.45) and China (5.55) {Cheeni stats are likely to be false}


Will post more tomorrow as time permits.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 01:39 
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Good posts Purush ji.

For those that claim that this disgust on Indian road accidents came about just due to the BBC episode..read the posts in November on this very thread.

It is cruel to leave cows on road tarmacs.

Fact is Indian road habits are disgusting. Because they are rooted in ignorance of consequence and not motor skills.

Those that equate US and Indian death rates by extrapolating populations are making very basic analytical errors..not worth arguing about.

We have a very long way to go, a lot of education to impart, a lot of habits to change..before we make a difference to the slaughter on Indian roads that goes on.

To do the above, requires some humility and acceptance and not a torn shirt open fly response that is so sadly evident here.

I won't change my view, i won't argue a retarded view that Indian driving habits are great and we are doing very well wrt other countries. We are doing a lousy job really.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 02:33 
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Purush,

I'm very certain the percentage of pedestrians and cyclists being killed is 60%+ in India. Even back in the 80's I was part of several urban studies for Chennai which also looked at traffic fatalities. Pedestrian/slow vehicle kill rate with mixed traffic was the vast majority of fatalities, even way back then.

US traffic is all about predictability. People don't even have to think to drive in USA. If we tried that in India we would mow down our entire city in short order.

IMO 60% or so of our older cities, esp. ALL the side streets, should be pedestrian only. The main thoroughfares can then be barricaded so essentially no pedestrians/slow traffic should be allowed. This is how Paris or Rome are organized. Both are dense organic cities similar to India. Mass transit then provided 80% of all daily trips. This is how those cities, which by the way have quite dreadful driving habits, managed to get a handle on the problem.

Indian drivers are not going to reform. It is part of our social condition. Best to separate the vehicles and pedestrians forcefully.
-----------------------------------------

WRT cows they are the least of our problems. Esp. Chennai as Aavin milk and now the ubiquitous tetra packs became available the cow on the street has reduced quite dramatically. It was a nature of our social condition that certain groups wanted fresh milk at their doors every day for religious/dietary reasons. As long as that group existed there were going to be cows inside cities and on the streets. As that group dies out the cows disappear.

People should remember that one of the most nauseating sights in India used to be cow-dung patties stuck on every manner of wall. As people have switched to LPG, that too has ended. Social condition. Now the only dung on walls is politician fat-cat posters. :(
--------------------------------------------------

Also Panda road fatalities number is hugely fudged. The number killed on Panda roads in accidents is 250,000 per year. But the number reported as vehicle fatalities is only 80,000 and declining!! :rotfl: It appears Panda has been leaving out the pedestrian fatalities to avoid 'alarming' the people. You know, in their best interests.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 06:32 
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theo,
pedestrianization is an interesting idea. but as a past proponent, based on experiences in blr and in mys, i have learnt that it does not necessarily work in all places. pretty soon, merchants/vendors will start complaining about fall in foot falls that follows pedestrianizations. the reason becomes apparent when you realize that pedestrian only zones can only work in life-style only markets. many such markets exist in indian towns, infact classic indian market is all about segregated markets. but the problem is that access to these areas is typically through areas non-lifestyle markets. what do you do when a textiles pete is surrounded by hardware market on one side and whole vegetable market on the other?

pedestrianization by itself will not work. but how about quazi public access? working on it. who does the public quazi transiting is not clear.

thanks for your posts on cows and cow dung. very perceptive and very true. all behavior is a function of functionality. nothing endemic to a populace. in US, people follow rules because there exist PERVASIVE rules that make sense to them. intermittently building 15 ft lanes in a country where two wheelers are abundant, and expecting people to follow them in places where no organization exists makes no sense. to expect people to somehow intuit all rules based on these ill thought out half baked ideas, and modify their
behavior is stretching it. idiots are the people making who are making these rules, not the people who violate them.


Last edited by shaardula on 17 Jan 2012 07:09, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 06:44 
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I think in the Indian context the only viable solution is to make mass transit systems so efficient that it becomes the preferred mode of choice for transportation for a majority of the population. Coupled with this there's a need for aggressive road use tax pricing which disincentivises driving in congested localities. These two steps must be syncronised with each other - that is costly to drive and the alternative is a well connected and comfortable Metro/Mono rail system with good feeder bus services.

It's a tall ask to get this going but given the fact it is virtually impossible to demolish and rebuild our cities the way ChinPanda has done, IMO that's the only viable long term solution.

JMT


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 07:13 
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hi amit. that is an ideal. but transit works in conjunction with how the city is actually laid out. our ideals are completely alien to our realities. in lieu of that and we end up making our own people problematic. problem is at the top not at the bottom. problem is with the system not the people.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 08:48 
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Purush wrote:
Saar, cow is a domesticated animal already not a wild species.


By "domesticated" you mean we have forced them to live with us for our selfish reasons ?

Purush wrote:
You still haven't answered my question about whether the cow roaming around in the city is good for the cow itself?
Let me reiterate:
1) What's it going to eat in the city?
2) What is it going to drink?
3) Where is it going to rest?
4) How is it going to avoid traffic/noise pollution/dangerous objects


The cow will find food and water for itself. You need not worry about it. I believe there is enough food and water for cows in cities.

Regarding pollution: I think you should transfer your elderly parents/grandparents to the "periphery". I believe they will be able to "avoid traffic/noise pollution" there.

Purush wrote:
Also what about stray dogs biting toddlers?
What is more important to you - the safety and well being of a toddler/senior citizen or the 'right' of a stray dog to do whatever the *&%$ it wants?


If a stray dog bites a toddler, then the well-wishers of the toddler have every right to use proportionate force to protect the latter.

And what about thousands of fish/goats/chicken killed everyday for various purposes? I don't think thousands of children die from dog-bites everyday. Due to some strange reason, you forgot to mention this point. This asymmetry is very interesting. And I don't mean that in a good way.

Quote:
The quality of life for city dwellers must be improved. Isn't that what we are all supporting?

Relocating cows from the city streets is one of the steps.


The quality of life for *all* organisms must be improved. It includes human beings and animals. Relocating one species from any location is hardly a fair approach.

Quote:

The cows were given royal status as most Brahmin households do to cows. The cows were cleaned properly, were regularly checked by the local vet who was a family friend, they had spacious land for roaming, clean drinking water, shady trees for resting under etc. In short they were happy, contented cows.


How can we generalize from what happened in your family? Do you believe that it is a fair portrayal of what happens in an average Indian family? Why should I care if you belong in the tail of the probability distribution?

Quote:
I strongly suspect they wouldn't have been so happy if they were left to fend for themselves on the hot baking roads, dodging the genocidal KSRTC buses, without access to clean food and water.


See...how many times do I need to point out that human beings are responsible for these "genocidal buses"? You cannot constrain the movement of animals due to the environmental mess created by human beings. samjhe? People who created the problem should pay the price.

Quote:
But..but.. these terms and conditions are artificial constructs by humans, not in tune with the natural free-for-all outlook for humans + animals.


Yes, they are artificial. But human beings have *voluntarily* accepted them. (If they don't like the terms and conditions of labor, they are free to strike/resign.) I don't think we know what animals want. It is my guess that chicken/goats don't want to die prematurely. I think parrots don't want to be in cages. I speculate that hens are not big fans of an omelette. Of course, I don't have any evidence for these claims. You should consult volume 27 of your Lahori Logic manual and tell us about the reality.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 11:44 
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It is indeed major surgery to separate out the vehicle corridors from the pedestrian corridors. Not least will be much bridge and underpass construction. For instance world standard is pedestrian first. Meaning vehicle takes bridge/underpass and pedestrian walks on grade everywhere. Contrast that with our pedestrian flyovers and underpasses and you can see why it does not work in India.

But it is very much doable and is what it will take to tame our traffic. For instance in Chennai, the entire Purasawalkam High road should be lowered to create a continuous underpass. All the side streets can then become pedestrian only and have linking connection across.

Look at this Paris Street. Every bit as cluttered as India but pedestrian only.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 11:51 
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abhishek_sharma wrote:

The quality of life for *all* organisms must be improved. It includes human beings and animals. Relocating one species from any location is hardly a fair approach. .

Does *all* include Flies, Mosquitoes and Cockroaches as well??


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 11:56 
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Theo_Fidel wrote:
For instance in Chennai, the entire Purasawalkam High road should be lowered to create a continuous underpass. All the side streets can then become pedestrian only and have linking connection across.


At the OMR road, I always see groups of people doing the 'Indian pedestrian road cross adventure' even when they are right below the pedestrian bridge. They would dare to run across the road, hop on the divider/median and run across - but won't climb up 20 steps and walk and climb down. Is cost the factor on not elevating/'under passing' the motored traffic and letting people walk on grade?


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 11:59 
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Theo_Fidel wrote:
It is indeed major surgery to separate out the vehicle corridors from the pedestrian corridors. Not least will be much bridge and underpass construction. For instance world standard is pedestrian first. Meaning vehicle takes bridge/underpass and pedestrian walks on grade everywhere. Contrast that with our pedestrian flyovers and underpasses and you can see why it does not work in India.

But it is very much doable and is what it will take to tame our traffic. For instance in Chennai, the entire Purasawalkam High road should be lowered to create a continuous underpass. All the side streets can then become pedestrian only and have linking connection across.

Agree with you. This is flaw of our urban planning approach which does not give importance to Public spaces and pedestrians. In fact Frankfurt has separate markings for Cyclists and a wide pedestrian pavements. Parking for vehicles are earmarked and rarely I saw parking at wrong places. Taxi stands and Bus stands are also designated with proper shelters and ticket vending machines.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 12:09 
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Gus wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:
For instance in Chennai, the entire Purasawalkam High road should be lowered to create a continuous underpass. All the side streets can then become pedestrian only and have linking connection across.


At the OMR road, I always see groups of people doing the 'Indian pedestrian road cross adventure' even when they are right below the pedestrian bridge. They would dare to run across the road, hop on the divider/median and run across - but won't climb up 20 steps and walk and climb down. Is cost the factor on not elevating/'under passing' the motored traffic and letting people walk on grade?

This is not limited to India and I saw same thing in Berlin(not so on AutoBahns). The only difference was that Motorists slowed down allowing people to pass but scolding a he same time.Same courtesy was shown in Tokyo. And yes mostly pedestrians walk on the grade. In Tokyo if they have to climb then escalators are provided. I have seen in India ( some citi) where Pedestrian bridge is constructed and remained unused as one had to climb about three floors above.Also What about senior citizens and sick weak people?
Cost is not a big factor in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 13:49 
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Theo_Fidel wrote:
Purush,

I'm very certain the percentage of pedestrians and cyclists being killed is 60%+ in India. .


Theo; I posted a detailed study by a IIT Prof saying that 60%+ is indeed the case.

It also says that most of India does not really maintain detailed records of road accidents. Only a few cities like Chennai and Delhi etc do.

I agree with your comparisons with Paris etc. We can for these areas restrict the traffic to pedestrians and cycle/cycle rickshaws.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 13:57 
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harbans wrote:
Fact is Indian road habits are disgusting. Because they are rooted in ignorance of consequence and not motor skills.


No actually what is disgusting is that some Indians are unable to see how Indian road habits have evolved uniquely to handle our traffic conditions, with it challenges, and we are coping quite well even under the circumstances.

It is the US and western traffic habits which are disgusting because even with 1000x better infrastructure and lesser loads they still manage to kill each other far more than we do.

:rotfl:

Quote:
Those that equate US and Indian death rates by extrapolating populations are making very basic analytical errors..not worth arguing about.


What basic analytical error? Not to go "OMG west OMG west" type of error?

Quote:
We have a very long way to go, a lot of education to impart, a lot of habits to change..before we make a difference to the slaughter on Indian roads that goes on.


We have a long way to go and lot of people need education for sure

Quote:
To do the above, requires some humility and acceptance and not a torn shirt open fly response that is so sadly evident here.


Yes the "OMG west, OMG west" crowd needs to learn humility and learn that other Indians are trying to do their best in very trying circumstances and doing well.

Their sneering is misplaced. Some humility to understand India is sorely needed.


Quote:
I won't change my view, i won't argue a retarded view that Indian driving habits are great and we are doing very well wrt other countries. We are doing a lousy job really.


Actually we are doing quite well, statistically speaking, and if the reality appears so offensive to you that you start calling people retarded.

You are at the wrong forum. I am sure you will find multiple places on the web where blind support of the west and running down Indian in a Pavlovian response is considered quite a cool thing.

Here, you talk nonsense, there are people who will say its nonsense. Get used to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 14:22 
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Since we are talking about road accidents, causes etc. and how we stand when compared to other countries. Here is a link from the Kerala Police web site which has lots of statistical information.
KP's statistics on road accidents
PS: One analysis done by KP was that in Kerala too many accidents happen due to drunken driving. And with this data & analysis they are now going hammer and tongs against the drunkards of Kerala.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 14:44 
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Sachin wrote:
PS: One analysis done by KP was that in Kerala too many accidents happen due to drunken driving. And with this data & analysis they are now going hammer and tongs against the drunkards of Kerala.


Kerala and Delhi are some pockets where accurate data collection followed by action has definitely worked. (Which incidentally included removing the cows from some parts, a favorite topic of some here :P )

In Delhi some analysis went for a six however (mass transport good --> BRT --> which was a disaster)


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 18:54 
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chaanakya wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:

The quality of life for *all* organisms must be improved. It includes human beings and animals. Relocating one species from any location is hardly a fair approach. .

Does *all* include Flies, Mosquitoes and Cockroaches as well??


The point is to find out how other organisms affect us. And our response should be proportionate to their positive/negative effect on us.

If they are really dangerous for human species (like a rabies-infected dog), then it is okay to kill/quarantine them.

if we are benefiting from them (e.g, by getting milk), then we should make sure that we improve their life in some way.

So I will weaken my claim. Since flies and cockroaches spread diseases, we should do everything to keep them away from where we live. But we should not bother them if they live away from human settlements.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 19:13 
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Sachin Ji from the KP site you referred these causes have been highlighted:

Quote:
The main causes of the increasing death rates in the Road Accidents are:

Not knowing or not adopting correct driving habits.
Increasing number of New generation vehicles especially Two wheelers.
Aggressive driving behavior of Heavy vehicle drivers especially Private Buses & Tipper Lorries.
Drivers sleeping while driving especially of Heavy vehicles & light motor vehicles after midnight due to fatigue and other reasons.
Over speeding.
Bad condition of Roads and absence of different lanes.
Driver /Rider's ignorance of Road conditions, Road signs and the Environmental factors.
Driver /Rider's ignorance or violation of Traffic Rules.
Drunken Driving/Driving without seat belt.
Driving without Helmet.

All road users should remember that road is to be shared amongst all.


Addressing these causes firstly entails realizing that bad driving habits, less consideration for other road users is a major cause of accidents in India, as shown in various statistics. Education, stricter licensing norms, reduction of traffic speed gradients, mass transit options planned for newer suburbs and upcoming towns, better traffic management and planning, rule enforcement are urgent requirements as vehicle fleets are added probably at a faster rate than roads come up to accommodate them.

Quote:
These two steps must be syncronised with each other - that is costly to drive and the alternative is a well connected and comfortable Metro/Mono rail system with good feeder bus services.


Amit Ji yes indeed mass transit and good feeder services for upcoming towns and suburbs must be included in town planning programs. Any city with more than 5 million people (Say) should have at least 2 airports to service it's requirements. In developed countries most cities the size of Delhi are serviced by 2 or more airports. Even lesser sized cities have 2 airports. IGI that services G'gaon, Delhi, Noida and beyond has probably around 20 million people or more passing through the entire city every year from one nodal point. Increasing Nodal points such as airports and railways will also have effect on reducing road traffic congestion and accident rates.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2012 20:26 
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Why dont the "oh so serious about traffic" people take a stab at the perhaps only complete and credible analysis of the situation that was posted by me on the thread.

Why cherry pick facts.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2012 00:26 
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Gus wrote:
At the OMR road, I always see groups of people doing the 'Indian pedestrian road cross adventure' even when they are right below the pedestrian bridge. They would dare to run across the road, hop on the divider/median and run across - but won't climb up 20 steps and walk and climb down. Is cost the factor on not elevating/'under passing' the motored traffic and letting people walk on grade?


Yes the key is pedestrian must be kept at grade at all times. This is true around the world. Else the traffic roulette situation results. Pedestrian must always have right of way on grade Always.

Road should not be shared. This is false thinking. Access and flow should be separate and dedicated.

Sachin wrote:
And with this data & analysis they are now going hammer and tongs against the drunkards of Kerala.


And I can guarantee accident rate will continue to climb. Bad driving habits are due to bad driving environment. If you look a Delhi metro the same 'uncouth' folks line up, don't yell, and generally behave orders of magnitude better. Yes, education by DM helped, but environment matters even more.

In India we have this silly thinking that the lathi cures all, throw them all in jail is the constant refrain. No where in the world is this approach proven to work.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2012 00:56 
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Theo saar,
How much inconvenience will push people to break the law and run across the road? Do they need conveyors starting from their doorstep to the other side of the road? Everyone has to walk to the pedestrian crossing to cross the road. OMR has many such breaks in the road, it isn't a single non-stop roadway. But people are impatient/just dont care enough to walk to such a place to cross the road. Similar is the act of driving on the wrong side of the road rather than go further along and do a u-turn. Plain arrogance to not follow the rules of the road isn't supposed to be accomodated. I've been doing trips on that road from the time it was a single lane potholled ridden road lined with palm trees and lead to nowhere. And it has gotten worse at a compounding rate! I'm sure you've seen this picture -
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2012 02:09 
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Quote:
Bad driving habits are due to bad driving environment.


That's a large jump. Yes we do have a situation where we have a bad driving environment, extreme traffic gradients, potholes, animals to navigate etc..but still stats show Drunk drivers, drivers unaware of rules, high beam driving, coming on the wrong side of the road, night with high beam, overtaking recklessly, jumping red lights etc. All point to a lack of education primarily and a wrong sense of 'smart' driving. Most drivers get a license easily.

Call center cab drivers in Gurgaon and Delhi are amongst the worst. They have motor skills but no traffic sense and sensibilities. While the former is a basic, the latter is what will improve the terrible traffic situation in India today. While statistics are blaring that accidents are coming heavy due to driver callousness and attitudes, it's falsehood to attempt deflect opinion saying it's an Indian adaptation and we are doing very well compared to even developed countries.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2012 02:29 
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I'm not saying there isn't atrocious driving. Absolutely there is.And yes traffic rules must be enforced and so there will be challans issued, peopled fined and even sent to jail. What my point is that not one of these items will reduce the fatality rate. No where in the world has it worked that you chase people with danda and fatality rate drops.

By scape goating drivers the standard reaction now is to flee the scene. You can see that in the statistic where drivers are blamed 80% of the time. This tells me that the easy way out is being taken too often when assigning blame.

First, people should never be in a position where office is on one side of OMR and say restaurant, bus stop is opposite side. In India this silly 3 foot fence with nice holding/climbing points does not work. In fact it does not work anywhere else either. Need to provide proper barriers. With grade change. Road should be higher or lower by 3 feet to 6 feet. That will reduce this crazy monkey jumping by 90%. There will still be exceptions, there always are. Indian situation is roads are too narrow and small. Pedestrians and traffic must be completely separated.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2012 03:14 
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Theo Ji, where have i said that Danda is the only solution?

Quote:
Education, stricter licensing norms, reduction of traffic speed gradients, mass transit options planned for newer suburbs and upcoming towns, better traffic management and planning, rule enforcement are urgent requirements


Everything i mentioned above is a systemic reform. I start with Education.

Quote:
You can see that in the statistic where drivers are blamed 80% of the time. This tells me that the easy way out is being taken too often when assigning blame.


At the root cause level sure the system is to blame. The environment. The education., the enforcement. Each of the points i mentioned don't blame the individual. They just state the fact that these root causes reflect in driver callousness and attitude. Irrespective of the BBC report (which i did not care to see), we at the minimum have to acknowledge yes we have a problem. Not say it's OK or US/ UK have worse traffic sense (falsehood)..and in general name call well meaning individuals who say that these problems exist and acknowledgement of their existence is the first step to getting a consensus to solving it.

Surprisingly on BRF, we are not achieving the 1st step, of acknowledging that the problem exists. Instead those that identify the problem are being labelled as Macaulytes etc. The discussion has bogged down to the lowest common denominator level saying that whether there is a problem or no problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2012 03:23 
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I am all for hefty fines for traffic rules that are enforced through electronic evidence collected on the spot. Then people have to pay the fine to government instead of bribing the police man.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2012 04:49 
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30% increase in 3 years!!

link


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2012 05:14 
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I don't remember where I saw this video first. Anyway, sorry if repost.



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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2012 05:47 
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Gus wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:
For instance in Chennai, the entire Purasawalkam High road should be lowered to create a continuous underpass. All the side streets can then become pedestrian only and have linking connection across.


At the OMR road, I always see groups of people doing the 'Indian pedestrian road cross adventure' even when they are right below the pedestrian bridge. They would dare to run across the road, hop on the divider/median and run across - but won't climb up 20 steps and walk and climb down. Is cost the factor on not elevating/'under passing' the motored traffic and letting people walk on grade?


I think it would be prohibitively expensive and probably impossible technically to elevate/depress the road at every pedestrian crossing.

WRT to the pedestrian bridge- I am going to go out on a limb here: maybe there is a psychological component to this- nobody wants to climb stairs unnecessarily, so seeing a set of stairs as the first stage for crossing the road quickly deters them. However, a pedestrian underpass might not be such a bad idea, especially with a gentle slope instead of steps (or slope+steps depending on the space). The first stage is 'easier' since you're going down, and once in the underpass, you've already 'committed' to the crossing, so there is no choice but to complete it. :P

An underpass however has it's own set of problems with maintenance, water pooling during rains and sometimes even the presence of criminal elements.
Perhaps, at exceptionally traffic/pedestrian-heavy junctions in some locations both could be constructed on a trial basis and data collected as to which approach is more effective.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2012 06:10 
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Another thing I've noticed (in Kochi at least): where there are traffic cops manning the junctions, the traffic flow is *much* better and regulated than those at automatic signals.
Automatic signals + traffic cop keeping an eye on the junction = even more effective, especially when there are designated pedestrian crossings.

There is one such junction close to my house; when the cop is around, pedestrians can cross freely when traffic gets the red light. But if the cop is not around, there is a 50/50 chance that the pedestrian has to compete with traffic even if the light is red since some vehicles simply ignore the light.

So some level of manual oversight/enforcement does work. But is it feasible to put a cop at every traffic junction in the city? Probably not?

Theo, I fully agree that traffic planning in the cities should give priority to pedestrian traffic, this has been implemented all over the world, and should be especially relevant for pedestrian-heavy Indian cities.
IIRC, some Japanese and Euro cities (Vienna?) used to have a no-vehicles-in-the-downtown area rule for Sundays. Only pedestrians allowed. Perhaps something similar can be trialled in some narrow/crowded commercial areas in Indian cities too. Park your car somewhere else and walk. Also allows the PWD people to carry out some maintenance/cleaning work in these crowded areas without obstruction by vehicular traffic.


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 Post subject: Re: Indian Roads Thread
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2012 06:39 
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Prasad wrote:
30% increase in 3 years!!

link


Quote:
However, with the traffic police increasingly using technology and surveillance cameras (with around 180 cameras operational in the city), Mr. Saleem hoped that the detection rate would increase. For example, after businessman Arjun Hari Nair (28) was run over in the early hours of September 15 on Ramana Maharshi Road, policemen tracked down the cab driver with the help of images taken from cameras as well as GPS coordinates to identify the taxi.


This gives me an idea which may be a bit far-fetched and not implementable outside the cities, but here it is anyway.

In Singapore, there is something called the Electronic Road Pricing fee which is essentially a toll for using the roads (in a private vehicle) in the CBD and other congested areas during peak hours. Prices scale according to the type of vehicle and time of day. Every road vehicle in Singapore has to be legally fitted with a uniquely numbered electronic reader/transmitter that contains a plastic cash-card. As the vehicle passes under a gantry (for eg. located on a road leading into the CBD) the toll is automatically deducted from the cash card. If there is no value left in the card, the gantry records the unique serial number of the card-reader/transmitter (which in turn is uniquely linked to the vehicle) and the owner gets a fine in the mail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Road_Pricing

Something like this may be possible to ease congestion in the commercial areas of Indian cities during peak hours. It is definitely going to be unpopular, and the ERP also has its own set of problems- in some cases the traffic congestion is merely 'relocated' to a nearby area (an eg is given in the wiki link). So it has to be 'optimized' for Indian conditions. And it may also be difficult to ensure that all vehicles have these readers/transmitters. Perhaps start only with cars and heavy vehicles?

If the ERP-like system also contains a local tracking function that works within the city, say using something like cell towers (just an eg. probably something else is technically feasible) to determine vehicle position, hit & run drivers may be identified more easily using this + cameras. Ofcourse, this is going to be HUGELY unpopular :D with accusations of Big Brother behavior, invasion of privacy etc. But maybe some legal protection can be afforded....records of movement may be examined only in specific cases of hit & run incidents and only after explicit judicial approval.


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