Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

The Technology & Economic Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to Technological and Economic developments in India. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Suraj »

Bus Rapid Transit: A Tale of Three Cities
Delhi vs Pune vs Ahmedabad compared
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Suraj »

The most important urban policy story in the world is happening in India
In fact, a new initiative to upzone Mumbai, India is probably the most important urban-policy development in the world today. It should fairly dramatically increase living standards in one of the biggest cities on the planet and possibly do a great deal to drive economic growth forward throughout India.

Zoning news from the third world isn't the kind of thing most people in the west are going to pay attention to. But as India is both the world's largest democracy and has the world's largest concentration of poor people, its success or failure in generating rising living standards is a huge deal. And getting urban planning right is a huge piece of that.

One important measurement in the urban-planning world is what Americans call Floor Area Ratio (FAR) and what Indians call Floor Space Index (FSI). FAR/FSI measures the ratio of built-out floor space to land area. In a suburban area full of one-floor buildings, large lawns, and generous parking lots you would expect FAR to be well below 1. In midtown Manhattan, which is full of very tall buildings, FARs get as high as 15.

Mumbai currently has a regulatory ceiling of 1.33 FAR for the central city and 1 for more outlying areas. In the United States, a 1.33 FAR would probably be a neighborhood full of three story row-houses. In other words, a kind of low-density residential urbanism.

But making this the maximum allowed building density in a low-income city of 12 million people has created a very different situation: Mumbai's infamous hyper-crowded slums, as seen in Katherine Boo's Beyond the Beautiful Forevers. Alain Berteaud points out that contrary to what you might guess, "a lot of slum dwellers are gainfully employed and are not poor in terms of their relative income. Rather, they are the victims of a number of misguided land use policies and of a lack of government investments in infrastructure."

By Indian standards, in other words, Mumbai has good opportunities for jobs and incomes. So people have flooded into the city. But the city has not allowed for remotely adequate levels of new construction. Consequently, by 2009 the average Mumbai resident had just 48 square feet of residential space at his disposal compared to about 365 square feet in Shanghai.

The proposed change

Greater Mumbai's governing authority is proposing a sweeping change to the permitted FARs in the area. Under the plan, Mumbai would be divided into five zones with an FAR of 8 allowed in the very densest areas and FARs in the 5-6 range in places well-served by mass transit. Fifty-eight percent of the city's land area would remain below 3.5, but even that could mean significant increases in the amount of building allowed in many areas.

New construction should have four major economic impacts:

Existing Mumbai residents should be able to obtain more living space for themselves, allowing for higher real living standards even in the absence of wage increases.
It should become more feasible for more Indians to relocate to Mumbai and its relatively robust economy, increasing wages and productivity nationwide.
The new construction itself will generate jobs.
With more space at their disposal, Mumbai residents can accumulate more consumer goods, increasing demand for higher-end products.

The proposed change doesn't come directly from the central Indian government, but does reflect priorities of the still-relatively-new prime minister Narendra Modi. As leader of the Indian state of Gujarat he increased density in several cities and often linked new building permits to infrastructure funding.

Even a city as large as Mumbai contains only a relatively small fraction of India's vast population. But it is in many respects the country's most economically dynamic metropolis, so its decisions have big national implications. And if the change goes through and is seen to pay off, it could inspire further reforms across the country that give urban Indians the opportunity for better homes and better lives.
Interesting debates on the matter:
"Build the carrying infrastructure before you raise FSI"
Higher FSI will kill the already strained infra in Mumbai and won't make property cheaper
"Build infrastructure together with implementation of new FSI"
More FSI in Mumbai to reduce prices; need infrastructure development plan
Vriksh
BRFite
Posts: 406
Joined: 27 Apr 2003 11:31

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Vriksh »

Real estate is ridiculously expensive (due to poor land laws, opaque property rights and slow legal system). In India it takes 8 years average household salary to buy a house, compare this with approximately 2-3 years of average household salary for a market like USA. Most people spend far too much money on RE to be able to spend on other essentials which causes a far smaller consumer market for goods and services as compared to the size of the economy. If the RE market standardizes to world norm we will be see a boom in other areas.

Caveat: This is my opinion not a thoroughly researched position
kmkraoind
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3908
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 00:24

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by kmkraoind »

Revealed: Docklands Revival, Mumbai’s Last Chance - Indiaspend

Its a lengthy article, which talks about redevelopment lands of Mumbai docklands.
Collectively, Port Trust land sprawls across 752.24 hectares or roughly one-eighth the size of the island city, Mumbai’s southern core, once the limits of the old city of Bombay. Most of the docklands unfold along a 14-km waterfront, laced with road and rail.
The plan–integrated with Mumbai’s upcoming 2014-2034 Development Plan–proposes the eastern seaboard be revitalised on the values of what it calls “intelligent urbanism”, the catchwords being open, green and connected.

‘Open’ for new public uses, such as recreation, culture, tourism and community amenities. ‘Connected’ through multiple transportation modes: walkways, cycle tracks, metro, ferries and bus rapid transit. ‘Green’, to ensure environmentally sustainable land use.

The plan calls for 30% of docklands to be set aside for open spaces, another 30% for transport and infrastructure and 40% for mixed-use development for businesses, the fishing industry, office and retail markets and a finance centre.
negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by negi »

arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4570
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by arshyam »

Chennai’s Complete Streets: An Idea Worth Emulating - Transport Niti, Swarajya Mag

Quoting some excerpts from this detailed article. A credits go to the url above, pics also sourced from the same article, though they assign original copyrights are as appropriate. Comments inline are mine.

Image

Image
According to a study conducted by the Ministry of Urban Development in 2008, only 20% of trips are undertaken by personal modes of transport in Indian cities with populations of over 80 lakh. The remaining 80% are undertaken by public transport, walking, cycling, and intermediate modes of public transportation (IPT) such as auto-rickshaws, taxis and cycle-rickshaws. The mode share of personal vehicles in three of the four ‘metros’ is less than 20%, Chennai being the outlier in that group with a 30% personal vehicle mode share. { I had always thought Chennai's vehicle usage was lower than this, considering the number of people who take buses and trains in the city. But a large number of suburban commuters drive to the local railway station to take a train to work. I don't know how that is counted. } Bangalore and Hyderabad, both Tier 1 cities, also have personal vehicle mode shares of under 30%. If we were to now superimpose investments on urban road projects on the same chart, we’d find that an overwhelmingly large proportion of investments have been cornered by projects aimed at helping personal modes of transport (the 30% crowd). For a country where car users are a minority, it is hugely ironical that pedestrians, cyclists and public transport users, the majority, often end up getting the short end of the stick in getting their mobility needs addressed probably because they aren’t vocal enough.

Irony keeps coming under the car in India like it did in Delhi when car users filed a lawsuit against the Delhi BRT. { And the Delhi AAP govt wants to shut this system down, instead of making some improvements and attract more ridership. Another irony the author didn't call out.} Barely had irony recovered from this accident that Kolkata decided to ban cycles (11% mode share) on its roads to ‘ease congestion’, a euphemism for giving undue advantage to car users (8% mode share).

If we were to look around us, we’d be hard pressed to find footpaths and cycle tracks. It is because over the years, our cities have used discretionary powers to benefit their preferred group, i.e., automobile users solely because the latter are more vocal about their needs.
{ I can attest to this. In the '90s, when the DMK govt and Stalin as Mayor of Chennai built a bunch of flyovers, a lot of footpaths were done away with in order to widen the roads. Chennai wasn't very pedestrian friendly to begin with, but it went from bad to worse in the '90s. Only now is the trend sort of reversing, though there are miles to go before one can walk, to paraphrase Tennyson. The pic below is still quite common in the city. }

Even roads that have footpaths prove their existence merely as a technicality such as the one on the right. If you’re a pedestrian though, a discontinuous footpath, even if it is paved, is as uncomfortable and frustrating as a discontinuous road is for vehicle users.
Image
If you were a commuter in this area shown in the photo and were asked to make a decision on your choice of travel mode, what would you choose, being a pedestrian or being in your vehicle? It is a no brainer isn’t it? If we were to repeat this exercise for every commuter in the same area, we’d find that a large majority of commuters would be more inclined towards using private vehicles and hence would contribute towards increasing the load on our already overburdened roads.

When faced with such situations, our cities have either taken out or reduced the widths of footpaths to widen roads as part of their vehicle-oriented projects. True to their nature, vehicle oriented projects have done what they invariably do, nudge people to move away from City centers, a phenomenon known as urban sprawl. Remember the overzealous builder trying to sell his new project 20 km from the main city by talking about that famed 80m DP road that’s about to come up in the area? Rings a bell?

This has been happening across all our big cities, people are spreading out and it is evident from the same MoUD study.

The average trip lengths in our cities has been increasing, an indication that we’re driving more and longer than before. Between 1994 and 2007, the average trip length in Tier I cities increased by 30% and is expected to increase by approximately 43% between 2011 and 2031.

Longer trip lengths have an inverse relationship with walking and cycling, and a direct relation with congestion. They create a vicious cycle of more investments in vehicle-centric projects and reduction in walk and cycle trips. This is primarily why we find our cities clogged today despite having much wider roads than what we had a decade ago. More widening is akin to loosening our belts to cure obesity.
But there is growing hope, based on recent trends, that our cities are making the right moves. Several municipalities and metropolitan development authorities are increasingly taking a more progressive approach while allocating valuable tax rupees on urban infrastructure projects. Some of the credit for this change must go to India’s National Urban Transport Policy (NUTP) which unequivocally makes it clear that transportation projects should take into account the needs of all modes and all users, not just personal vehicles as has been the practice so far.
The Corporation of Chennai (CoC) has taken a lead in this regard and it should be lauded for adopting a policy aimed at creating pedestrian and cyclist friendly infrastructure for its citizens. The policy document states that the CoC aims to make Chennai:

“a city with a general sense of well-being through the development of quality and dignified environment where people are encouraged to walk and cycle; equitable allocation of public space and infrastructure; and access to opportunities and mobility for all residents”. (emphasis mine).

What CoC aims to do is ensure that its roads follow the policy popularly known as ‘Complete Streets’. As the name suggests, Complete Streets are those that are designed to serve all user groups, including people with disabilities, pedestrians, cyclists, public transport, and vehicular traffic. The overall objective of the ‘Complete Streets’ policy, which is gradually becoming a global movement of sorts, is to provide equitable mobility for all and eliminate traditional discrimination against certain user groups.

In its policy document, the CoC has set itself some targets against which it will measure itself going forward. These targets include

[*] Increasing the mode share of pedestrians and cyclists from 30% in 2007 to 40%;
[*] Reducing the number of pedestrian and cyclist fatalities to 0 per year, popularly known as the ‘Vision Zero’ and adopted by several public agencies around the world;
[*] Ensuring that 80% of streets have footpaths;
[*] Ensuring that 80% of streets with widths of 30m of more have unobstructed and continuous cycle tracks;
[*] Increasing the mode share of public transport from 30% in 2007 to 60%; and
[*] Reducing vehicle kilometres travelled by personal modes of transport, i.e., reduce trip lengths and mode share of personal modes of transport.[/list]

To achieve these targets, the CoC has outlined a set of proven strategies in its policy document. These include, among other things, following the ‘Complete Streets’ design policy for all its road projects, and favouring at-grade pedestrian facilities instead of overhead crossings and pedestrian subways. It also proposes to implement BRT corridors with dedicated bus lanes, create more ‘eyes on the street’ by setting up dedicated vending spaces along pedestrian routes, and creation of pedestrian zones throughout the city. { I am not sure if it is related to this project, but the past 2 years have seen a serious upgrade of interior streets in the city, with defined width, reflectors, street signs etc. It gave a good impression of uniformity for the city, considering the metro is administered by a combination of municipal corporation, municipalities, town panchayats, and so on, and the smaller local bodies adopted the corporation's template to upgrade their roads as well. So it was good spinoff by setting an example. }
Image

Image
The best part of this initiative is the creation of a ‘Chennai Street Design Manual’. By creating this document, the CoC has perhaps become the first municipal body in India to have its own set of design standards and guidelines, something that has been woefully missing in Indian cities.

The result of this policy can now be seen on ground with the completion of several revitalisation projects such as, but not limited to, Halls Road, Police Commissioner’s Office Road, Pantheon Road, and MG Road. It is indeed heartening to see an Indian municipal corporation ‘walking’ the talk, hope others follow suit. { Has anyone seen the ground implementation at these roads? There was an article on The Hindu last week saying some footpaths are broken soon after construction. Quality and implementation is always the problem! }
gakakkad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4667
Joined: 24 May 2011 08:16

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by gakakkad »

x post from nukkad...

excellent video...picture of things to come ... DELHI-MUMBAI corridor is featured too..

Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6470
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Supratik »

I was in Hyderabad and Chennai. Saw no slums unlike NI cities but why are these so poorly planned? Everything seemed crammed as if there is no space. I am comparing with NCR.
member_22733
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3788
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by member_22733 »

Short answer : lack of zoning and corruption. Will elaborate on sometime.
Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6470
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Supratik »

Corruption is high in NCR. Even shabby Kolkata has parts that are properly planned. But Chennai and Hyderabad looked like they have put structures everywhere. Didn't find many open spaces? Where are the parks and playing grounds? Where are the footpaths? I think they have very bad town planning.
kmkraoind
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3908
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 00:24

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by kmkraoind »

Do not know, which thread is appropriate, so I am posting this here.

Ahmedabad Civic Body to Pay People for Using Public Toilets
To prevent open defecation, the civic body in the city today introduced a novel concept of rewarding people to use the public toilets.

The civic body will identify people who defecate in open and will encourage them to use corporation-run toilets by rewarding them with an incentive of one rupee, Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation in-charge Health officer Bhavik Joshi said.

"Standing Committee of AMC decided to reward those people, who will use civic body public toilets instead of open defecation. They will be given an incentive of Re one for using the lavatory facilities," he said.

According to Joshi, AMC has already identified around 1,200 such people in various parts of the city and this list will be revised at regular intervals.

There are 120 places in the city, where activities of open defecation were registered, he said, adding that AMC will provide lavatory facilities in all those areas.

The project will get started by next week, the officer said.
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by RoyG »

1 rupee? Serously? :lol:
srin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2511
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by srin »

That's what you term as a $hit-load of money :lol:
gakakkad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4667
Joined: 24 May 2011 08:16

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by gakakkad »

u can't make people millionaires for peeing in a public toilet right ?
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Singha »

I see scope for a VC backed startup that can provide people with directions to the nearest public facility in any city....even in say middle of NYC, when you have to urgently go, where do you go and what condition will it be in? big data analysis, crowdsourcing etc can give some angle on the quality. perhaps sensors in each facility can let know how crowded it is.
deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4024
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by deejay »

srin wrote:That's what you term as a $hit-load of money :lol:

-OT here but couldn't stop myself from posting -

A Sulabh Sauchalaya personnel once told me of an interesting exchange with their bankers in Mumbai - Axis bank. The bank manager while handling and counting the coins deposited told him matter of factly - "Your money literally stinks". :mrgreen:
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Singha »

for Theo sir, finally a footpath in blr with std workmanship, materials, sloping and a buried duct for all cables.

this is the new pedestrian friendly St Marks rd bluru - the revolution has began! death to the feudals! shiver tokyo shiver!
https://www.facebook.com/misrark/posts/ ... nref=story

even then one contractor who was not aware of the new rules tried to investigate a water leak by digging up one place - he was quickly pounced on and given his new marching orders.
vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by vina »

for Theo sir, finally a footpath in blr with std workmanship, materials, sloping and a buried duct for all cables.

this is the new pedestrian friendly St Marks rd bluru - the revolution has began! death to the feudals! shiver tokyo shiver!
Sorry. I frequent the "finished" section on Cunningham road and the worksmanship is plainly Kakkoose.
The interlocking cobblestones are already sinking in some places, there is rubbish all over in certain spots (including discarded baby diapers), the usual set of idiots riding their bikes on the sidewalk, cars parked haphazardly on it in front of stores, blocking pedestrians, all that is left is for the usual crowd of hawkers and vendors to encroach and drive people out of the sidewalks on to the roads and jackasses spitting on the sidewalk. Depressing.

We should basically drive the hawkers, vendors, encroachers and others out of the sidewalks in the cities. Only then we will have some semblance of sanity and cleanliness.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Singha »

cunningham road? isn't that far to the north behind the police commissioners office? st marks road is only between residency road cash pharmacy to koshy's/hard rock cafe in MG road
vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by vina »

Singha wrote:cunningham road? isn't that far to the north behind the police commissioners office? st marks road is only between residency road cash pharmacy to koshy's/hard rock cafe in MG road
Yes. This TenderSure thing is on at Cunningham Road, Vittal Mallya Road, in front of St Josephs' College/ St Marks Road from what I see, maybe other places as well.

IF this Cunnigham road work is any indication, it is Kakkoose.
member_27845
BRFite
Posts: 160
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by member_27845 »

We should basically drive the hawkers, vendors, encroachers and others out of the sidewalks in the cities. Only then we will have some semblance of sanity and cleanliness.[/quote]


This part , I totally agree with. The only ( half ) decent road in Chennai is the Cathedral Road ( that too only till City Centre ) , the reason being this is Amma's daily commute to the Fort , and they have ensured no one parks on the road ,and have cleared out all hawkers / sidewalk food vendors etc
Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6470
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Supratik »

I repeatedly viewed the Tendersure pics in Bangalore, Kerala on SSC. I think it is a revolution in urban space which is missing in our cities. Sad to hear bad things about it from Vina. Apparently the usual suspects are now against Tendersure. Probably no money to be made from tenders repeatedly digging up roads for various purposes and relaying them. Sad if Bangalore doesn't pursue it further. Would have set an example for other cities.

As for hawkers kindly visit Kolkata. It is taken over by hawkers. That is the most flourishing job opportunity in Bengal and also tea vendors and roll shops.
Picklu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2128
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Picklu »

Singha, this was in today's ToI for tendersure ...

http://epaperbeta.timesofindia.com/Arti ... 2015004044

so much for the elite loactions !!!

I have traveled on that road and it is a pain. The wide footpath has hardly any user whereas the narrow road is chokablock with traffic :(

A few skirts from nearby bowring institute doing their thing on that wide footpath is going to cause a serious accident there one day.
member_29112
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 44
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by member_29112 »

vina wrote:
Singha wrote:cunningham road? isn't that far to the north behind the police commissioners office? st marks road is only between residency road cash pharmacy to koshy's/hard rock cafe in MG road
Yes. This TenderSure thing is on at Cunningham Road, Vittal Mallya Road, in front of St Josephs' College/ St Marks Road from what I see, maybe other places as well.

IF this Cunnigham road work is any indication, it is Kakkoose.
Yes it is. I travel there on a regular basis. The whole plan was poorly planned. The footpaths are just too wide. The road in front of Vitttal Mallya hospital used to see traffic jams everyday. Now things are just worse. And if I recollect correctly, BWSSB dug up a portion of St. Marks road saying they 'forgot to connect the old and new pipes', after the completion of the TenderSure work.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Theo_Fidel »

It doesn’t look too bad to me for a first attempt. Now the key is to learn lessons by rinse repeat. There are no magic bullets, you get better by constantly raising standards. Design-implement-raise standards-design-etc. The very fact that we finally have proper 4”-6” curbs and grade separators and access controlled alleyways and proper ramped sidewalks is a huge improvement in standards by my book. There are hundred things that can be improved but good start. Let me tell you that back in the day even Times Squaw Noo Yawk was, as vina saar memorably puts it, kakoose. Literally. The week I visited someone fell through a shoddy manhole cover and broke his leg. Yet look at it now. Keep trying Bengluru, you are on the right path….
hsrada wrote:The footpaths are just too wide.
Vast majority of travel in India takes place by walk. If anything the foot paths need to be even wider and cars must be eliminated from these streets. At these population densities you cannot have a personal vehicle based city.
-----------------------------------------

Personally I’m on the fence about Hawkers. I think as we get richer this problem will naturally disappear.
Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6470
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Supratik »

I completely disagree. Most developed cities in Europe give preference to pedestrians than vehicles given the fact that they are much older than US cities and it is not possible to create 6-8 lane roads everywhere. Under those circumstances you decongest the city core by various means e.g. public transport. If you look at the pictures on SSC reducing the width to respectable levels in Tendersure is not going to create "proper" additional lanes. It is just going to create a situation where 3 or 4 lanes of cars squeeze into 2 lane roads which is what commonly happens in India. So when we see a properly designed pedestrian facility in Indian cities we think it is something undesirable. I think the problem is with our mentality.
member_29112
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 44
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by member_29112 »

Theo_Fidel wrote: Vast majority of travel in India takes place by walk. If anything the foot paths need to be even wider and cars must be eliminated from these streets. At these population densities you cannot have a personal vehicle based city.
-----------------------------------------

Personally I’m on the fence about Hawkers. I think as we get richer this problem will naturally disappear.
1) Wide foot paths are good? Not always. When they are placed on a road where there are people only two times a day (when the nearby St. Joseph's school starts and gets over), when the wide foot paths cause perpetual traffic jams - they are unnecessary.

2) And even if we get richer, there will still be hawkers until someone decides to do something. But the thing is people will loose their only source of income and politicians their votes. So your favorite Pani-Puri wala is here to stay. :lol:
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by Theo_Fidel »

hsrada wrote:1) Wide foot paths are good? Not always. When they are placed on a road where there are people only two times a day (when the nearby St. Joseph's school starts and gets over), when the wide foot paths cause perpetual traffic jams - they are unnecessary.
I don’t think the foot paths are causing the traffic jam. So what happens without foot paths when the school is open? People are dodging thru traffic and regularly getting run over. There is more vehicle traffic than the road can handle and this business of commuting through the heart of our cities and squeezing more and more traffic thru is not sustainable. Eliminating the foot traffic today may get you a little more vehicle through put today at the cost of even worse gridlock later. Real hell is coming.

One should look at the numbers, a personal vehicle commuter based city typically has population densities Less than 5,000 per sqkm. In fact most cities in the Midwest and smaller EU towns have densities below 1000/sqkm. My city has a overall population density of 350/sqmile and 500/sqmile in the suburbs. So what is Bengluru’s density you ask. Most of it is heading well North of 50,000/sqkm with the overall heading North of 7,000/sqkm! And right now only a tiny sliver has cars, one would say less than 5%. Things are going to get a lot lot worse unless you force people to give up personal transport and into public transport. The time for easy decisions is long past. Do the foot paths now, you will really need them later…

Image
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 19 Jun 2015 21:42, edited 2 times in total.
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Suraj »

Urban space development is a combination of several decisions to handle traffic flow, in several places. Arguing that one road is narrow, doesn't make sense unless one knows the larger traffic and pedestrian flow plan that was intended of the area. Everyone's familiar with artificial bottlenecking caused by changes in one place. It doesn't mean those changes - in this case the footpath widening - is at fault.
Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6470
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Supratik »

Thats correct. The answer lies in decongesting cities and putting in place public transport. Squeezing in 4 lane vehicles into two lane roads is not the answer.
arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4570
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion Oct 12 2013

Post by arshyam »

hsrada wrote:[1) Wide foot paths are good? Not always. When they are placed on a road where there are people only two times a day (when the nearby St. Joseph's school starts and gets over), when the wide foot paths cause perpetual traffic jams - they are unnecessary.
Saar, the bolded part is a good enough reason to have wide footpaths. I echo Theo saar - what will the kids do if the footpaths are narrow? Walk on the road?

There are too many close shaves near schools on a daily basis, caused by kids crossing the road to get to school, parents insisting on dropping each kid off in a car, other commuters using the route through a school to save time, no special signs to tell drivers to slow down near schools, no discipline followed by drivers to actually slow down, and so on and on. The above scenario has been the case right from the '90s (at least in Chennai/Adyar area), and it has only gotten worse. To this day, my school has <5 feet wide sidewalks, and the road is a parking lot at school open/close times. Yet, we hear only complaints from car drivers, who cannot afford to wait an extra few minutes in their air-conditioned comfort, or take a different route, or start early (or even take public transport). And well-to-do parents insist on dropping their kids off in the car, adding to the congestion.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Suraj wrote:t doesn't mean those changes - in this case the footpath widening - is at fault.
I don't think this is proven at all. So far all we have is anecdotal info about how it 'looks' too wide and may not be fully occupied all the time. Can some one post a picture of this sidewalk with some measurements so we can be a bit more informed. We should not revisit design on the basis of opinion. Someone has spent a lot of time designing based on metrics, they should be paid to remeasure and modify based on data. Thanx.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by SaiK »

we should never grow like this:

china: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtzP9o0IYAA-BgF.jpg:large
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5620
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by RoyG »

SaiK wrote:we should never grow like this:

china: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtzP9o0IYAA-BgF.jpg:large
It's going to happen if we dont get our act together. Problem is most state gov could care less.
Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15043
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Suraj »

Please stick to the topic. This isn't a nukkad thread for general whines using images from other places.
Picklu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2128
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Picklu »

Guys, I am all for this type of wider footpath on nearby MG Road, Brigade Road and Church Street where there are lot of pedestrian traffic due to all the shops.
St. Marks road and Museum road where there is very little pedestrian traffic and huge amount of vehicles (a large number of them are public transport btw) does not appear to be the proper candidates for first implementation or PoC.
If you do not believe the people who are actual uses of these roads and posting in this thread, check all the images available for these roads yourself. You will not find any image where there are more than 4 or 5 pedestrian in the entire photo frame. However, the traffic jam there is very very true. Again check the traffic update from google maps if you do not believe.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Heres a video through St Marks road during construction. By Indian standards pedestrian traffic is light but is not minimal either. Hard though it may be to believe I suspect there are still as many people on the sidewalks than all those single occupancy cars and many empty Auto's jostling with each other.

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

Picklu wrote: However, the traffic jam there is very very true. Again check the traffic update from google maps if you do not believe.
Traffic Jams in India is largely due to poor driving habits of Indian Drivers, just as most of the accidents. They are a nuisance in terms of driving behavior and civic sense and a threat to life of other road users. Most dangerous of species on Road in India.
Supratik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6470
Joined: 09 Nov 2005 10:21
Location: USA

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Supratik »

Also from the video posted by Theo I do not see how reducing the footpath is going to help vehicular traffic.
Bade
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7212
Joined: 23 May 2002 11:31
Location: badenberg in US administered part of America

Re: Indian Urban Development and Public Policy Discussion

Post by Bade »

From the video above,
1) There are people still walking on the streets.
2) Cars parked on the side of narrow road.

Once the pedestrians feel safe with wide pavements, they will come. It is early to dismiss the widening of footpaths based on current pedestrian usage.
Post Reply