Indian Railways Thread

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 13 Jun 2014 23:53

Or when coaches are at rest between journeys.

Sachinji,
Very true. Remember the days when you sat in queue, reservation form in hand with cash, waiting to get to the counter and hoping someone doesn't book off the remaining available tickets. There used to be a counter at the mylapore mrts station that I used to book tickets.

How difficult would it be to build a new system to replace the irctc mess currently. I remember the days when it used to be a hassle-free system and booking tickets on it was a breeze.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 14 Jun 2014 00:12

but even the IRCTC interface connects back to PRS, isn't it?

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 14 Jun 2014 09:16

SRoy wrote:but even the IRCTC interface connects back to PRS, isn't it?

Yes, as per my understanding. But IRCTC brought in a very huge number of users via the internet. I don't know if PRS system was designed to take up such huge loads. They may have anticipated some increase in PRS counters etc. But putting it to face the internet was really awful !

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 14 Jun 2014 20:50

^^

PRS can scale up, based on my experience with one project with CRIS.
I think the scalability issue lies at IRCTC site. It is the bottleneck.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 15 Jun 2014 01:31

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/sli ... 473145.cms

Indian Railways complete 'challenging' Udhampur-Katra rail link

Udhampur-Katra rail link
13 Jun, 2014

Text: PTI & TNN

The Udhampur-Katra rail section in Jammu and Kashmir is ready for inauguration! Once the line becomes operational, it will enable pilgrims to the Vaishno Devi shrine to travel directly to the base camp at Katra.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 16 Jun 2014 20:40

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 652044.cms

The transporter is facing a loss of Rs 30 crore every day after it was forced to take back the passenger fare and freight hike based on automatic fuel adjustment component announced in May.

WTH?? The last I saw IR was making a healthy 7% profit margin annually (2012-2013). Now it is losing Rs 10K crore per annum if we pro rate Rs 30 crore per day.

The fares have stagnated for too long. Bump them up. All these tough decisions can only be taken in the first year. After that no chance.

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 17 Jun 2014 07:15

Rlys likely to proceed with rates authority, fare rise

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 705_1.html

The new government seems likely to proceed with two reforms announced by its predecessor concerning Indian Railways (IR).

One is a fuel adjustment component (FAC) in passenger and freight rates, to be decided by IR instead of needing Cabinet or legislative approval. The other is a Rail Tariff Authority (RTA) to fix all rates; this is likely to be a reality by the year-end. The FAC was used in the past year to raise freight rates. Mallikarjun Kharge, the previous railway minister, also used it to raise passenger fares last October.

Movement on the RTA appears likely to be hastened. It would be an advisory body till the Railways Act, 1989, is amended.Rail Tariff Authority is likely to be a reality by the year-end.

The proposed Rail Tariff Authority would be a five-member body, headed by a chairman. RTA would frame rates, keeping in mind the Centre's projection of Plan and non-plan requirement of funds. This is expected to bring politically-motivated announcements out into the open. "Once you have an RTA, it would ask how a project can be announced without the required funds. It would bring more transparency and put announcements made as political compulsions an explicit fact open to public scrutiny," said a senior government official.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 20 Jun 2014 01:17

The amount of garbage being thrown on railway tracks is incredible. At stations it is even worse, apparently sweepers collect the garbage from the bogies and then proceed to dump it on the tracks. In the last 10 years it has gotten out of hand. The dust bins are inadequate and are overflowing. There is no garbage collection at stations to take it to a local dump and stations are becoming stinking dumps themselves. It is a pathetic situation and the sanitation is really out of hand, but everyone accepts it and doesn't question it.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 20 Jun 2014 04:09

Upper middle classes have taken to flying. There are lots of local airlines offering all kinds of discounts. DINK couples can easily fly twice/thrice a year to marriages/vacation/native place in comfort. For the rest, trains were the only other mode of long distance transport in comfort but now one has I hear sleeper buses for long distance. Given the hassles of reservations etc. may be trains are not favored by upper middle classes anymore and hence the upkeep is not there as the people who travel by train do so because they do not have any choice. Captive market.

Anybody remember those days when they were children and traveling their parents telling them to "quickly occupy the bathroom" while waiting in sleeper/2nd class waiting rooms? One could even get a steaming bucket of water by a paying a rupee tip to the porter who would go get the engine driver to let a puff of super heated steam into a bucket of cold water?

Today I would think most parents would be aghast at that idea what with the press of people and general decline in hygene and maintenance of stations proper (including in-station cafes/restaurants) leave alone the bathrooms.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 20 Jun 2014 06:32

^^^Flying is not an option even for the upper middle class when many routes are limited between 2nd tier cities. On top of that, baggage is limited too and is hard with small children involved. As a parent and human, I am indeed aghast at the level hygiene at railway stations. Waiting rooms are filthy with non working ACs and fans, on top of that rude railway officials who are unhelpful too if you have questions about late trains. By Indian Railway rules, they must issue a full refund if a train is more than 4 hours late, so it is not unusual when they lie about late trains. Forget bullet trains, simply clean up what is there by picking up the trash and getting rid of the stench and huge rats on the tracks, and improve on time performance by 10%. I don't think that is too much to ask.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 20 Jun 2014 08:44

The leadership at the top during UPA was so useless, it allowed all the institutions to rot. Railways is no exception. And with no fare hike for several years, the funds crunch must have affected the upkeep of the stations. I was surprised by seeing the general untidiness of the trains and the stations when I went to India three years ago. It was not always like that.

saip · Post by **saip** » 21 Jun 2014 04:34

It is good that Railways have increased the fares. These are supposed go into effect from Jun 25. Now they say those who bought tickets earlier and traveling after 25th will have to pay the difference. Fine, no problem, except no one told the yahoos who run the railway web site to revise the fares. I bought the tickets for July 10 at the old rate and just now checked the fare again and it is the same. How difficult would be to load two fare tables at the same time?

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 26 Jun 2014 19:26

Mort Walker wrote:^^^Flying is not an option even for the upper middle class when many routes are limited between 2nd tier cities. On top of that, baggage is limited too and is hard with small children involved. As a parent and human, I am indeed aghast at the level hygiene at railway stations. Waiting rooms are filthy with non working ACs and fans, on top of that rude railway officials who are unhelpful too if you have questions about late trains. By Indian Railway rules, they must issue a full refund if a train is more than 4 hours late, so it is not unusual when they lie about late trains. Forget bullet trains, simply clean up what is there by picking up the trash and getting rid of the stench and huge rats on the tracks, and improve on time performance by 10%. I don't think that is too much to ask.

Could not agree more. Better cleaning, toilet facilites and service would make a huge difference. This should not cost so much.

Further on modern coaches should be introduced, at actual costs. The tracs can handle speeds of 150 km per hour. The main problem with train travel are the grossly mismanaged train stations.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 26 Jun 2014 20:12

Most Indian railway stations have to be torn down and rebuilt to modern standard IMHO. Even the heritage stations should be completely gutted and rebuilt every 25-30 years or capital involved will deteriorate away to nothing as has happen on IR. Typically to maintain capital, an investment rate of 3%-5% per annum will be required for upkeep. If you value CST terminus at say Rs10,000 crore, IR has to be investing Rs 500 crore on average for maintenance and capital repair, every year! Obviously we are running these things on a shoe string and deterioration is now too far gone. Dedicated a proper Rs 10,000 crore per annum capital fund to replace and renovate stations. Pick a couple as example projects.

During the fare hike GOI could have easily dedicated say 1/4 of the hike expressly to upgrade coaches and clean up railway stations. Take with one hand but also give with the other. Last time I checked a proper LHB coach with contained toilet was running in the 1.5 Crore range. Considering IR has ~ 40,000 coaches at last count. This would mean ~ Rs 60,000 Crore to replace all the coaches. The recent hike raised ~ Rs 8,000 Crore per year. So if Rs 2,000 crore is dedicated to replace coaches in about 30 years all the coaches will be replaced. Slow, but at least it would be a start.

Railways can learn from the airports where the private sector has a done a sterling job at Delhi & Mumbai in turn around the performance. Though at heavy expense.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 26 Jun 2014 21:16

Apparently this rise is going to cover only one-third of the annual loss for railways. There has to be further rise in future to break even.
I would also think that they need some kind of rationalizing to reduce the no. of employers to reasonable levels and keep salary outgo to a lesser percentage of expenditure.
Also if new coaches are to be introduced hope they get some foreign co in JV with IR to manufacture modern coaches and not the 70s era dabbas that IR passes for coaches.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 26 Jun 2014 21:54

Controlled privatization and deregulation is needed.

IR should restrict itself to tracks and signalling.

Auction stations to private companies.

Another set of companies can run the trains themselves. Again auction off the routes or divisions. Let the passenger service companies import equipment from wherever they wish to. IR can set the technical requirements for such equipments.

Another set of companies to take over all loco plants and workshops.

IR themselves can run low cost trains to fulfill their social obligations.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 26 Jun 2014 22:01

There is only one problem with the above idea: No competition, hence no pressure to improve.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 26 Jun 2014 22:06

^^

why? the telecom and aviation runs on similar model. in fact there is too much competition in this model.

auctioning of stations and train routes need to be for fixed periods.
and with the exception of stations IR can also award routes or divisions to multiple players ... like telecom sector.

imagnie having option of multiple freight companies on rail to move your household from Mumbai to Delhi.

BTW, this model already works for EU.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 26 Jun 2014 22:08

SRoy wrote:Controlled privatization and deregulation is needed.

IR should restrict itself to tracks and signalling.

Auction stations to private companies.

Another set of companies can run the trains themselves. Again auction off the routes or divisions. Let the passenger service companies import equipment from wherever they wish to. IR can set the technical requirements for such equipments.

Another set of companies to take over all loco plants and workshops.

IR themselves can run low cost trains to fulfill their social obligations.

Yes, this is what is required and IMO Modi's vision as he has outlined is close to this.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 27 Jun 2014 07:57

Links on statistcis of Indian Railways from GoI websites

http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/railwa ... et_Eng.pdf

http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/railwa ... 04,366,554

http://mospi.nic.in/mospi_new/upload/SY ... ndex1.html

http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/railwa ... 6,554,1276

The average price per passanger km is 27 paise per km i.e. about Rs 1 for four kilometers.

This was 1.25 paise in 1951. Back then gold was Rs 10 per gram. Today Gold is Rs 3000 per gram. So by gold stabdard, the price today should be 300 times i.e. about Rs 3.75 paise. , which is 14 times higher than existing actual prices !! i.e. existing per passanger km price is 14 times lower than gold rate of 1951.

And in 1951, average rupee3 volume per citizen was Rs 60 per citizen. Today it is Rs 60000 per citizen i.e. 1000 times higher. And it is per citizen, so 300% increase in population is taken into account. So by that count, railway price average should 1.25 paise * 1000 = 1250 paise = Rs 12.50 per passanger km.

All in all, prices are too too low.

IMO prices of cattle class = unreserved class should not increase . In fact, cattle in that class should be paid to travel in cattle class !! It is jeevdaya. The prices in cattle class MUST increase after they get at least comfortable place to stand and later sit. But till then , cattle class prices should remain same.

Prices of second class reserved non-ac should double. Yes double.

Prices of first class non-ac should increase by 25%

Prices of second class ac should go up by 50%

=====

Frieght charges are Re 1 per tonne-km !!!

So say 1000 kg of onion comes from Mumbai to Ahmedabad , distance = 500 km. Then frieght price is only Rs 500 . Now final retail price of onion is Rs 20000 per tonne at least !! So railway fright is only 500/20000 = 2.5% of final retail price. For potato/tomato, it would be some 4% and 2%. And potato, onion and tomato are cheapest vegetables. Rest vegetables retail prices are Rs 50 per kg in city, low ball.So railway frieght isnt a major compotent in final retaol prices at all. So frienght charges should also increase by 50%.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 27 Jun 2014 12:22

basic maintenance is what costs a lot....it needs man power , and with the amount of trains that comes to any major station thats a huge task , claiming it doesnt cost much doesnt sound right. You will need atleast 2-3 shifts of people working to keep things clean, a station like chennai central will need around 50 person one shift to keep everything clean

now calculate how much will it cost to pay 100 workers in 2 shifts at 5000 per head, this is bare min, it might be more

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 27 Jun 2014 13:56

krishnan wrote:basic maintenance is what costs a lot....it needs man power , and with the amount of trains that comes to any major station thats a huge task , claiming it doesnt cost much doesnt sound right. You will need atleast 2-3 shifts of people working to keep things clean, a station like chennai central will need around 50 person one shift to keep everything clean

now calculate how much will it cost to pay 100 workers in 2 shifts at 5000 per head, this is bare min, it might be more

Salaries of class-IV and class-III employees except soldiers and constables in India is too high. Thats true for railways, hospitals , everything. Using OSF law-drafts we can reduce their salaries and make it at par with market. That will drastically reduce wage bills across govt

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 27 Jun 2014 18:43

krishnan wrote:basic maintenance is what costs a lot....it needs man power , and with the amount of trains that comes to any major station thats a huge task , claiming it doesnt cost much doesnt sound right. You will need atleast 2-3 shifts of people working to keep things clean, a station like chennai central will need around 50 person one shift to keep everything clean

now calculate how much will it cost to pay 100 workers in 2 shifts at 5000 per head, this is bare min, it might be more

If they invest in new machines and impose a RS1000 fine on people throwing litter. provide an payed option for toilets. I am sure it will be possible to keep the platforms clean.

Another idea can be to open new small stations for AC trains only, at the main stations.

The fundamental problem however remains that people do not pay the real fair. Rs 1 per km should be the minimum.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 28 Jun 2014 09:46

Will having platforms on BOTH sides of trains help? That will raise the costs, but then passengers can get up and get down from both sides and will reduce wait time at the station. Also, the railways can post instructions that passengers should use FRONT doors of coach to get down and BACK doors of the coaches to get in. That will also speed up the time for getting in and getting out , and will reduce the time the train has to wait at the station. Reducing wait time at each station can reduce the overall journey time as well.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Jun 2014 15:24

The new IRCTC Reservation system (url: https://nget.irctc.co.in/eticketing/home ) is quite good, fast and has eliminated several bottlenecks in the previous version.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Jun 2014 18:44

Xpost

So it begins...

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/m ... 142833.ece

Modi for first high-speed train by 2017

The Government is keen on running India’s first high-speed train (HST) between Ahmedabad and Mumbai. Prime Minister Narendra Modi wants the train to be running by the end of 2017, said sources in the Railway Ministry. Much ground work had already been done for this section with the submission of a pre-feasibility report, which has estimated the cost of a 543-km-long new track at Rs. 70,000 crores.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Jun 2014 20:08

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 167578.ece

is there some data how many of such toilets are needed? what is the % of completion status?

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 29 Jun 2014 21:42

Apart from land acquisition, what does it cost to railways in putting 1 km of track on a flat terrain?

And say the belt already has 3-5 tracks. Then what will be cost of adding one more track?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Jun 2014 00:26

And the fact remains.. a master plan must save costs. I'd go for double tracks for bi-directional use, and special tracks for goods for all track conversions - this means minimum of three tracks on any route as rail track standards

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 30 Jun 2014 14:49

This hi-speed rail thing is going to make sense only if the present railways is reformed on the lines that SRoy has outlined. Otherwise it will remain an expensive, shiny bit in a sea of horrible stuff and is not going to make the cut with the average railway traveller/voter.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 30 Jun 2014 16:07

they should go slow for these high speed , concentrate on bringing in quality and convenience for present setup

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 30 Jun 2014 16:42

I hope Ahmedabad-Mumbai gets a HSR (whatever it is supposed to mean), which brings down the best travel time (Duronto) from 5.5 hours to around 3 hours. Modiji has invested significant political capital in high speed connectivity on this corridor, even if it is supposed to compete with air travel, and make more space by removing the assorted Rajdhanis/Shatabdis/Durontos which take up valuable space on the existing low speed lines. I am pretty sure, taking off one of these Class-I trains will speed up at least 5 other Superfast/Express/Passenger trains.

Is it technically possible to have a common HSR line and DFCC line?

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 30 Jun 2014 19:46

prahaar wrote: Is it technically possible to have a common HSR line and DFCC line?

The purpose for DFCC is defeated.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jul 2014 04:07

Having high speed high end rails, while our poor current setup left to bite dust is like living on penthouse building, driving bmw in the midst of slums all around you with no clean roads around to access your building. Nothing else can shame a nation to leave the poor alone! jeez! can't we have a collective responsibility to remove this poorness model, and move towards hygienic setup, and enough advancement to keep a strong middle class system?

It should happen even in modi-sarkar? then I can understand where we will stand even comparing to pakis and bidis not more than a decade from now. This is the need of the hour.

Add additional lines and make all routes uni-directional (dual tracks).
Have goods track separate.
Modernize existing coaches, and operational systems.
Bring hygiene setup...
fine people who pee and poop on tracks.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 02 Jul 2014 20:04

It's raining in Mumbai metro!

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 02 Jul 2014 20:25

Is the roof leaking rain water or condensed water from AC ?

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 02 Jul 2014 20:30

Reliance cut corners by buying Chinese trains.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 02 Jul 2014 20:42

They cut corners in airport metro line too. It was shut down for months due to structural faults.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 02 Jul 2014 21:30

These are the Bandicoot companies that loot the nation of its resources. They bring disaster to the nation. The centre must be seeking an explanation from the NCP-Congi govt in Maharashtra. Hope in the coming elections it's going to be BJP SS that will come to power with a huge majority.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 02 Jul 2014 21:40

SanjayC wrote:It's raining in Mumbai metro!

Considering the mess that they made in the Delhi airport express line this was expected. I recall reading that some BEST busses could not climb the flyovers of Bombay, because they were built in the Middle Kingdom.