Why then is SM Krishna referring to the statement by MK and saying the problem was "started" by him at least in the current context of outbreak?SSridhar wrote:However, this Hoganekkal issue was created by Yediyurappa. IMHO, he is to be solely blamed for this. If anybody is doing this for political considerations, it is he.
South India River Water Issues/Disputes
I think the problem started with Yedurappa visiting Hogenakkal and wanted to set up a foothold in the Kaveri River Basin area.
Karunaidhi and the Congess ( through so called Kanada Nationalists) seized on the issue so as to thwart the AIDMK-BJP alliance.
Karunidhi aim being to deny AIDMK influence outside Tamil Nadu and Congress to deny BJP winning seats in Tamil dominated areas and southern KA.
Clever startegy by Karu Nai-nidhi indeed
Karunaidhi and the Congess ( through so called Kanada Nationalists) seized on the issue so as to thwart the AIDMK-BJP alliance.
Karunidhi aim being to deny AIDMK influence outside Tamil Nadu and Congress to deny BJP winning seats in Tamil dominated areas and southern KA.
Clever startegy by Karu Nai-nidhi indeed
It is clear that KA should get atleast half of the total availaility since its catchment area contribution is >50%. The tribunal award is patently unfair. All these problems would not have started if the tribunal was fair. It is understandable that TN will be upset since for years they have been using a much larger share. But things have changed and KA wants it fair share - even they want to grow 2-3 crops a year. TN has to understand that times have changed and behave more maturely.SSridhar wrote:Shaardula, the Feb. 5, 2007 Cauvery Tribunal Award is Final. It was also an unanimous award. In 1991, it gave an Interim Award of 205 tmcft to TN and in Feb, 2007, it reduced it to 182 tmcft.shaardula wrote:2007 february was interim report not final.
Here is the final award:
Along the same lines when there is excess, it is KA's responsibility to manage the excess and not release huge amounts of water into TN which may result in flooding.
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It is Karnataka that has been repeatedly screwed. First the British imposed limit on the number of reservoirs that could be constructed by mysore state, and then when karnataka sought to renegotiate it after the expiry of that agreement, TN refused to do it, and in fact increased the irrigation size by close to 20 lakh acres, and claimed water for all that.vina wrote: Fundamentally the problem is about sharing pain. How will anyone ensure that the pain is shared equally on both sides and not disproportionately .? The Karnataka govt wont and can't .. And TN cannot depend on the goodwill of the KA govt on this issues. They have been screwed repeatedly in the 80s on this, until they took it to court.
Need or greed?
Quote from the above article...
...
The irrigation figures in 1971 revealed that Madras (Tamil Nadu), with 52 per cent of the basin area and contributing only 32 per cent to basin flows, had as much as 42.3 per cent of its sown area under irrigation, claiming 70 per cent of the basin flows. On the other hand, Karnataka with 42 per cent of the basin area and with a contribution of 53 per cent to the basin flows, had only 19 per cent of its sown area under irrigation, utilising a meagre 20 per cent of flows.
...
Look at the above link for contribution by Karnataka to cauvery.vina wrote:Ravi, the equal part is debatable and has to be backed by facts , rationale and logic. What is the ratio of Kaveri's length in KA , esp the plains from Kushalnagar to Hogenekal ?. What is the length in TN ? . Does all the water in Kaveri come from Karnataka ? What about catchment areas in TN ? It is dishonest to ask TN to tap ground water (which is not a sustainable resource) , while KA goes expanding irrigation..
Strange, I never found any report where TN agreed to roll back or stop expanding its land under irrigation. Water sharing has never had one solution, and historical usage cannot be an absolute law anywhere. TN too needs to learn to share. They have used most of the water for a long time. Let other states who contribute to it too enjoy it. KA cannot be treated as a storage mechanism for TN's water needs.vina wrote:Historical usage patterns is settled law. If you want changes to it, you need to negotiate in good faith. Not the way KA has been going about it.
TN gets the benefit of NE monsoon too that Karnataka does not. Keep increasing the area under irrigation, and then claiming all water for itself and crying hoarse when KA itself is reeling under drought is not fair. Both TN and KA should look at using more water efficient crops. Paddy and sugarcane consume too much water. And even when KA farmers grow sugarcane, it is just two crops at the maximum ( most of the times, just one) per year, compared to three crops that TN farmers grow. And during the last drought seasons, TN was claiming water for 2nd and 3rd crops when KA farmers had no water for even 1 crop.
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Very funny logic. That is not the way it works. If that is the case UP/HP will claim nearly all the waters of the Ganges. China will claim all the waters of Brahmaputra , Sudan will claim all the waters of the Nile and no lower riperian state along huge multi country rivers like the Rhine will get any water.mayurav wrote:It is clear that KA should get atleast half of the total availaility since its catchment area contribution is >50%. The tribunal award is patently unfair.
That is why historical usage patterns are rights in settled law. The Tribunal decided the award as per accepted law and principles that are applied to in such cases. Now you suddenly cannot decide that something is "unfair" because you lost in court.
The tribunal was "fair" as per law and accepted practices.. If you get an international arbitrator and model this on the international agreements between upper and lower riparian states, you will get a worse result for Karnataka. So perish the thought of a "legal" solution if you want anything better than the tribunal and start negotiating in good faith and start thinking of creative solutions.All these problems would not have started if the tribunal was fair. It is understandable that TN will be upset since for years they have been using a much larger share. But things have changed and KA wants it fair share - even they want to grow 2-3 crops a year. TN has to understand that times have changed and behave more maturely.
When there is distress, no one is going to be able to grow 2 -3 crops. Both will be lucky if they get even 1 crop that year.
Yeah right.. there is no way in hell that Karnataka can store that amount of water when the Kaveri floods. It is beyond the capacity of the dams.Along the same lines when there is excess, it is KA's responsibility to manage the excess and not release huge amounts of water into TN which may result in flooding.
Looking at the river's course and lengths, I doubt the claims on %..
http://waterresources.kar.nic.in/river_systems.htm
has the following:
The catchment area of entire Cauvery Basin is 81,155-sq. km.
Karnataka
34,273 sq. km.
Tamil nadu
43,868 sq. km.
http://waterresources.kar.nic.in/river_systems.htm
has the following:
The catchment area of entire Cauvery Basin is 81,155-sq. km.
Karnataka
34,273 sq. km.
Tamil nadu
43,868 sq. km.
Last edited by bala on 03 Apr 2008 23:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Yes..The figures seem right. But look at the numbers carefully. Obviously TN, 32% contribution , it does not have to share with anyone., cos it is the last stop before the sea! . While Karnataka out of its 53% contribution has to share it with the lower riparian state.. That is a fact of geography , something that will simply never go away however much we wish it. Surely you dont propose that Karnataka shares zero!.. .RaviBg wrote:...
The irrigation figures in 1971 revealed that Madras (Tamil Nadu), with 52 per cent of the basin area and contributing only 32 per cent to basin flows, had as much as 42.3 per cent of its sown area under irrigation, claiming 70 per cent of the basin flows. On the other hand, Karnataka with 42 per cent of the basin area and with a contribution of 53 per cent to the basin flows, had only 19 per cent of its sown area under irrigation, utilising a meagre 20 per cent of flows.
...
So whichever way you slice and dice it, the over all numbers wont look different.
See, this is what I think should happen (but wont happen). Both states have to stretch every drop of water as much as possible and have to adopt new techinques and sensible crop pattern. That is the sanest and most equitable way by which both can extend area under irrigation.
Ofcourse, that wont happen. Both states want to extend respective areas by screwing the other guy of water. Look at the water tribunal award that has been posted.
Bottomline from the tribunal award if it can be reduced to one sentence .. Karnataka has to ensure 192 tmcft at Biligundlu to TN. Now if you cannot do that /wont do that , then start thinking of doing something different in terms of solving the problem in a distress year.
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I am not saying that Karnataka share 0% of the water.
In distress year, both TN and KA should have only one crop with priority given to drinking water. And any further extension of TN of irrigated land should be only from excess and should not be basis for water release. If the current irrigated land is 24 lakh hectares, if they increase the land being irrigated to say 25 lakhs, then during distress, water should be calculated for one crop of the original 24 lakh hectares, and there should be no water released for the additional one lakh that they increased to. And during distress, if TN gets water from NE monsoons, then KA should be allowed to keep that much of water in its reservoirs without releasing to TN as KA won't benefit from NE monsoons.
In distress year, both TN and KA should have only one crop with priority given to drinking water. And any further extension of TN of irrigated land should be only from excess and should not be basis for water release. If the current irrigated land is 24 lakh hectares, if they increase the land being irrigated to say 25 lakhs, then during distress, water should be calculated for one crop of the original 24 lakh hectares, and there should be no water released for the additional one lakh that they increased to. And during distress, if TN gets water from NE monsoons, then KA should be allowed to keep that much of water in its reservoirs without releasing to TN as KA won't benefit from NE monsoons.
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That may very well stand in court, but it cannot still be fair. More so if the previous historical powers that have been (british) twisted arms to settle things their way to help their Madras Presidency.That is why historical usage patterns are rights in settled law.
I agree with SaiK's assessment , TN has become greedy indeed and will use favorable arguments for its cause.
BJP: project cleared during NDA rule
[quote]The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) on Thursday admitted that the controversial Hogenakkal project was cleared during the regime of the BJP-led National Democratic Alliance (NDA), but added that it was for the Centre to ensure that outstanding issues were peacefully resolved between Karnataka and Tamil Nadu. the decision on the project was taken in 1998 by the NDA government. Mr. Prasad said it was for the Centre to ensure that there were no misgivings and violence.
“The Congress is leading the government at the Centre, Karnataka is under President’s Rule and Tamil Nadu is ruled by a member of the ruling United Progressive Alliance,â€
[quote]The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) on Thursday admitted that the controversial Hogenakkal project was cleared during the regime of the BJP-led National Democratic Alliance (NDA), but added that it was for the Centre to ensure that outstanding issues were peacefully resolved between Karnataka and Tamil Nadu. the decision on the project was taken in 1998 by the NDA government. Mr. Prasad said it was for the Centre to ensure that there were no misgivings and violence.
“The Congress is leading the government at the Centre, Karnataka is under President’s Rule and Tamil Nadu is ruled by a member of the ruling United Progressive Alliance,â€
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I don't think that will solve the problem though. There will always be allegations of neglect/partisanship whichever way you cut it. The people in North Karnataka feel they are neglected by the Karnataka govt, same is the case with telangana in AP. If not water, it will be something else that will cause friction.ramana wrote:How about the merger of the four South Indian states to create one super region and all the rivers flow within the region?
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Yup, totally agree. While there has to be give and take in any negotiations, there hasn't been any "Give" on the part of TN in any dispute whether with KA or KL.Bade wrote: That may very well stand in court, but it cannot still be fair. More so if the previous historical powers that have been (british) twisted arms to settle things their way to help their Madras Presidency.
MP is the best state of india - it has no indigenous language or race, no unified history, no trouble with neighbors, no boundary issues, we gave our capital Nagpur peacefully to MH, we broke without blood shed in to two smaller states, we don't ban movies of any language neither do we make movies in local or any other language, we don't fight or kick out people from other states, we don’t have any local/regional political party. We are only too happy to give all the Narmada water it wants to Gujarat. We even let them Build a dam in MP and take the water to sabarmati, of course they are nice folks they gave us some free electricity in return. We are very grateful to modi for his generosity
We are good good! Gandhi ji would be proud of us!!!!
We are good good! Gandhi ji would be proud of us!!!!
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Well. you are talking of the old Madras Presidency , plus some of the outlying areas such as Mysore, Hyderabad and Travancore! .. Madras Presidency was what was split to become TN, Karnataka, Andhra and Kerala!..ramana wrote:How about the merger of the four South Indian states to create one super region and all the rivers flow within the region?
A major portion of the Kaveri catchment area is Coorg (in fact Talai Kaveri the head of the river is Coorg). I have travelled through the area and Kaveri in its pristine beauty is a joy to behold. Coorg wants to be independent of Karnataka i.e. Kodagu. If that happens where will Karnataka and the gowda clan be, which is the most vehement about Water.
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Some coorgis, not everyone. You hear about it once or twice a year. And unless some people instigate it out of spite of karnataka, coorg won't be a separate state.bala wrote:A major portion of the Kaveri catchment area is Coorg (in fact Talai Kaveri the head of the river is Coorg). I have travelled through the area and Kaveri in its pristine beauty is a joy to behold. Coorg wants to be independent of Karnataka i.e. Kodagu. If that happens where will Karnataka and the gowda clan be, which is the most vehement about Water.
Irrespective of whether coorg becomes a separate state or not, coorg being a hilly area, cannot build reservoirs there. There is harangi dam near madikeri, but that is down in the plains.
Still, it is interesting to see how some people think
RaviBg, when I travelled around Coorg, I talked with the natives and Coorgis, and the common refrain I heard is that they are Kodagu and kind of frowned on us Bluru crowd barging into their areas so to speak. They are friendly and nice but they kept reiterating the Kodagu aspect and how they are different from the rest. Some areas where the Cauveri tributaries run are in Coffee Estates, literally in their backyards, and inaccessible to most. I did get a friendly coorgi to take me there to enjoy river crossing by rope army style! Had to trek quite some distance.
bala,
first of all internal dynamics of karnataka has nothing to do with the topic at hand, especially statements about it based on limited observations. that is fishing in troubled waters to put it mildly, very mischievious.
time and again you have been saying these types of fantastic things for a while now mostly in discussions that have nothing to do with these issues.
at all points in time in history the below the ghatta people have been tied to the greater karnataka. even in the heart of tulunadu, kannada is deeply rooted.
in 1100s when basavanna revolted against caste system in bidar (NW KA), guess who was the primary force called in to fight for sanatana dharma? the tuLu speaking banTas from SW Ka. one of the words for soldier in kannada with shades of samurai is banTa.
what is called as dharmasthala the most revered place in ka, is managed by tuLu speaking jains. the temple is patronized by a zillions tuLuvas. they together have done more for kannada, across karnataka, dharwad, mysore etc than perhaps the sundry govt departments themselves.
the finest feminist writer in KA and perhaps India, vaidehi from tuLunaaDu spans time and geography and to connect with that original feminist akka mahadevi from NW KA. makkaLiddaare kaNe akka mane tumba ... gave me goose bumps reading that.
i grew up in south karnataka but my dads side is from north karnataka and my mom's side(shivalli brahmins) is from that place. half her family speaks kannada half tulu. you go to places like to udupi, barkur, dharmasthala kundapura etc and make these types claims, that they prefer reverting to madras they will laff there heads off. shall i give you a list of shivalli brahmins, tuLu speaking banTas, byaris, konkanis and christians etc etc who are kannada icons during all recorded times? there are more kids from that place who study in kannada medium than perhaps even in mysore and not for lack of choice. my tuLu speaking shivalli brahmin aunt, put her son through kannada medium as a matter of principle, even when she could have easily sent him to english school where she is a teacher. stop making fantastic claims.
i can go on and on listing instances, including an entire list of the coastal folks fighting for karnataka unification. including the notorious pravin shetty of the vedike. yes, tuLu banTa rioting in blr allied to 'these gowda' types. that should put an end to all these hypotheses.
it is tala kaveri. not talai. please respect that.
any river is pristine in any place. it has got nothing to do with political boundaries.
oh yeah! you think kodavas are not pissed of and not allied with the 'gowdas'? you are totally reading it wrong. the issue of koDava discontent is more nuanced than what you are hoping it is. just dont come to mysore under that impression, even to kodava sangha meetings. again i can go on, suffice it say a very soft spoken koDagu native is the finest science writer and music critic in modern ka, and perhaps the most astute observer of TN. very interesting things he has to say about TN. you might bump into him if you stroll around in mysore, where a lot of kodavas come down to put settle. ditto bangalore.
'gowdas' themselves migrated from TN many many centuries ago.
cauvery has got nothing to do with caste. nor with language. it is about upper and lower riprarian states. but if you stand in front of KR circle and chant stats nobody listens in this brave new world of ours. you put some theaters to stone and cut some channels, everybody is tuned in.
enough of this nonsense. caste and all. and this is supposed to be bharath-rakshak.
i agree, it is way beyond us now. too much distrust. it will take mega visionaries to solve this. i dunno about TN, but in KA there are none at the moment. we have enough to keep the pot boiling though. till somebody perhaps a maNipuri comes and solves the problem for us.
first of all internal dynamics of karnataka has nothing to do with the topic at hand, especially statements about it based on limited observations. that is fishing in troubled waters to put it mildly, very mischievious.
time and again you have been saying these types of fantastic things for a while now mostly in discussions that have nothing to do with these issues.
at all points in time in history the below the ghatta people have been tied to the greater karnataka. even in the heart of tulunadu, kannada is deeply rooted.
in 1100s when basavanna revolted against caste system in bidar (NW KA), guess who was the primary force called in to fight for sanatana dharma? the tuLu speaking banTas from SW Ka. one of the words for soldier in kannada with shades of samurai is banTa.
what is called as dharmasthala the most revered place in ka, is managed by tuLu speaking jains. the temple is patronized by a zillions tuLuvas. they together have done more for kannada, across karnataka, dharwad, mysore etc than perhaps the sundry govt departments themselves.
the finest feminist writer in KA and perhaps India, vaidehi from tuLunaaDu spans time and geography and to connect with that original feminist akka mahadevi from NW KA. makkaLiddaare kaNe akka mane tumba ... gave me goose bumps reading that.
i grew up in south karnataka but my dads side is from north karnataka and my mom's side(shivalli brahmins) is from that place. half her family speaks kannada half tulu. you go to places like to udupi, barkur, dharmasthala kundapura etc and make these types claims, that they prefer reverting to madras they will laff there heads off. shall i give you a list of shivalli brahmins, tuLu speaking banTas, byaris, konkanis and christians etc etc who are kannada icons during all recorded times? there are more kids from that place who study in kannada medium than perhaps even in mysore and not for lack of choice. my tuLu speaking shivalli brahmin aunt, put her son through kannada medium as a matter of principle, even when she could have easily sent him to english school where she is a teacher. stop making fantastic claims.
i can go on and on listing instances, including an entire list of the coastal folks fighting for karnataka unification. including the notorious pravin shetty of the vedike. yes, tuLu banTa rioting in blr allied to 'these gowda' types. that should put an end to all these hypotheses.
it is tala kaveri. not talai. please respect that.
any river is pristine in any place. it has got nothing to do with political boundaries.
oh yeah! you think kodavas are not pissed of and not allied with the 'gowdas'? you are totally reading it wrong. the issue of koDava discontent is more nuanced than what you are hoping it is. just dont come to mysore under that impression, even to kodava sangha meetings. again i can go on, suffice it say a very soft spoken koDagu native is the finest science writer and music critic in modern ka, and perhaps the most astute observer of TN. very interesting things he has to say about TN. you might bump into him if you stroll around in mysore, where a lot of kodavas come down to put settle. ditto bangalore.
'gowdas' themselves migrated from TN many many centuries ago.
cauvery has got nothing to do with caste. nor with language. it is about upper and lower riprarian states. but if you stand in front of KR circle and chant stats nobody listens in this brave new world of ours. you put some theaters to stone and cut some channels, everybody is tuned in.
enough of this nonsense. caste and all. and this is supposed to be bharath-rakshak.
i agree, it is way beyond us now. too much distrust. it will take mega visionaries to solve this. i dunno about TN, but in KA there are none at the moment. we have enough to keep the pot boiling though. till somebody perhaps a maNipuri comes and solves the problem for us.
Last edited by shaardula on 04 Apr 2008 17:46, edited 1 time in total.
An abstract of timelines and events in the saga of Cauvery (or Kaveri) Water Dispute saga, from Vol II of the Cauvery Tribunal's Final Award:
1. Govt. of Madras and the Princely State of Mysore hold discussions on May 10, 1890 at Ooty on objections by Madras to the proposed irrigation works by Mysore. The Dewan of Mysore stated:
Mysore has a natural right to the full use of all the water in its territory, but such natural right is limited by the rights to supply which have been acquired by prescription on behalf of works in Madras. In exercising its natural right, Mysore may do anything which does not injuriously affect the enjoyment of its acquired rights by Madras, or materially diminish the supply to Madras works. The Madras rights extend only to the supply which has been actually turned to account for irrigation.
2. On June 11, 1890, Madras asks GoI to intervene and arrive at some principles for water sharing.
3. Between Nov. 1890 and Jan. 1892, the Durbar and Madras had a series of communication on water sharing principles. Finally, Madras accepted the rules and schedules prescribed by the Durbar on 17th March 1892 regarding new irrigation works.
4. On Mar. 22, 1892, the Secretary, PWD, Madras informed the Secretary, GoI of the agreement.
The agreement proscribed Mysore from sonstructing new irrigation reservoirs, anaicuts or resurrecting abandoned tanks or reservoirs without consent from Madras. For its part, the Madras Government was
bound not to refuse such consent except for the protection of prescriptive right already acquired and actually existing, the existence, extent and nature of such right and the mode of exercising it being in every case determined in accordance with the law on the subject of prescriptive right to use of water and in accordance with what is fair and reasonable under all the circumstances of each individual case.
5. The Agreement also mentioned an Arbitration Mechanism for disputes.
6. On 15th Oct, 1910, M. Visvesvarayya, Chief Engineer, Mysore submitted a request for a large reservoir and a hydro power project by impounding nearly one-ninth of the water discharged at Sivasamudram.
7. On 31 Oct., 1910, the Dewan of Mysore asked the British Resident at Mysore to get the consent from Madras for this project.
8. On 13th Nov., 1910, Madras requested Mysore to provide more details on the scope and working of the proposed project.
9. There was a meeting at Chennai between M. Visvesvaryya and C.A.Smith, Chief Engineer, Madras wherein certain reservations were expressed by Madras.
10. On 27th Mar. 1911, the Dewan of Mysore proposed a smaller dam which was accepted by Madras after sveral communication back and forth on 23rd Sep. 1911.
11. New rules for water discharge were suggested by Mysore, after the sanctioning of the above dam, which were not acceptable to Madras. The main contention was where the discharges should be measured. Madras insisted on the measurements at Upper Anaicut (Mettur Dam was constructed only in 1935) while Mysore insisted on Sivasamudram.
12. The matter was referred to Arbitration headed by a Judge of Allahabad aided by the Inspector General of Irrigation. Proceedings commenced on July 16, 1913.
13. It was arbitrated in April, 1915 that Mysore must maintain 6.5 feet of water at Upper Anaicut.
14. The Madras Government went in challenge against the award.
15. Sir M. Visvesvarayya challenged the award in July 1915.
16. In March, 1916, Govt. of India rejected the challenge raised by Madras.
17. By July 1916, the Govt. of Madras went in appeal to the Secretary of State, His Majesty’s Government.
18. In Nov. 1919, the Secretary of State rejected the Award.
19. It was suggested that either new discussions be carried out between the two States or go in for new arbitration.
20. It resulted in a fresh set of rules for regulation at the Krishnarajasagara.
21. The agreement was finally executed on Feb. 18, 1924.
One of the clauses, Clause 10 (xi), states:
provides for re-consideration of the limitations and arrangements embodied in Clauses (iv) to (viii) at the expiry of 50 years from the date of execution of the said agreement for purposes of further extension of irrigation and modification and additions as may be mutually agreed upon as a result of such re-consideration.
22. The Agreement also specifies the minimum flow for each of the months June to January to be measured at Upper Anaicut’s North gauge.
23. At the expiry in 1974, Karnataka argued that a fresh Agreement has to be negotiated without any reference to the 1924 agreement and none of the old clauses were enforceable. It also contended that the 1892 and 1924 agreements were inequitable and arbitrary and there was also some compulsion in entering into these agreements. Tamilnadu argued that the Agreement was permanent in nature.
1. Govt. of Madras and the Princely State of Mysore hold discussions on May 10, 1890 at Ooty on objections by Madras to the proposed irrigation works by Mysore. The Dewan of Mysore stated:
Mysore has a natural right to the full use of all the water in its territory, but such natural right is limited by the rights to supply which have been acquired by prescription on behalf of works in Madras. In exercising its natural right, Mysore may do anything which does not injuriously affect the enjoyment of its acquired rights by Madras, or materially diminish the supply to Madras works. The Madras rights extend only to the supply which has been actually turned to account for irrigation.
2. On June 11, 1890, Madras asks GoI to intervene and arrive at some principles for water sharing.
3. Between Nov. 1890 and Jan. 1892, the Durbar and Madras had a series of communication on water sharing principles. Finally, Madras accepted the rules and schedules prescribed by the Durbar on 17th March 1892 regarding new irrigation works.
4. On Mar. 22, 1892, the Secretary, PWD, Madras informed the Secretary, GoI of the agreement.
The agreement proscribed Mysore from sonstructing new irrigation reservoirs, anaicuts or resurrecting abandoned tanks or reservoirs without consent from Madras. For its part, the Madras Government was
bound not to refuse such consent except for the protection of prescriptive right already acquired and actually existing, the existence, extent and nature of such right and the mode of exercising it being in every case determined in accordance with the law on the subject of prescriptive right to use of water and in accordance with what is fair and reasonable under all the circumstances of each individual case.
5. The Agreement also mentioned an Arbitration Mechanism for disputes.
6. On 15th Oct, 1910, M. Visvesvarayya, Chief Engineer, Mysore submitted a request for a large reservoir and a hydro power project by impounding nearly one-ninth of the water discharged at Sivasamudram.
7. On 31 Oct., 1910, the Dewan of Mysore asked the British Resident at Mysore to get the consent from Madras for this project.
8. On 13th Nov., 1910, Madras requested Mysore to provide more details on the scope and working of the proposed project.
9. There was a meeting at Chennai between M. Visvesvaryya and C.A.Smith, Chief Engineer, Madras wherein certain reservations were expressed by Madras.
10. On 27th Mar. 1911, the Dewan of Mysore proposed a smaller dam which was accepted by Madras after sveral communication back and forth on 23rd Sep. 1911.
11. New rules for water discharge were suggested by Mysore, after the sanctioning of the above dam, which were not acceptable to Madras. The main contention was where the discharges should be measured. Madras insisted on the measurements at Upper Anaicut (Mettur Dam was constructed only in 1935) while Mysore insisted on Sivasamudram.
12. The matter was referred to Arbitration headed by a Judge of Allahabad aided by the Inspector General of Irrigation. Proceedings commenced on July 16, 1913.
13. It was arbitrated in April, 1915 that Mysore must maintain 6.5 feet of water at Upper Anaicut.
14. The Madras Government went in challenge against the award.
15. Sir M. Visvesvarayya challenged the award in July 1915.
16. In March, 1916, Govt. of India rejected the challenge raised by Madras.
17. By July 1916, the Govt. of Madras went in appeal to the Secretary of State, His Majesty’s Government.
18. In Nov. 1919, the Secretary of State rejected the Award.
19. It was suggested that either new discussions be carried out between the two States or go in for new arbitration.
20. It resulted in a fresh set of rules for regulation at the Krishnarajasagara.
21. The agreement was finally executed on Feb. 18, 1924.
One of the clauses, Clause 10 (xi), states:
provides for re-consideration of the limitations and arrangements embodied in Clauses (iv) to (viii) at the expiry of 50 years from the date of execution of the said agreement for purposes of further extension of irrigation and modification and additions as may be mutually agreed upon as a result of such re-consideration.
22. The Agreement also specifies the minimum flow for each of the months June to January to be measured at Upper Anaicut’s North gauge.
23. At the expiry in 1974, Karnataka argued that a fresh Agreement has to be negotiated without any reference to the 1924 agreement and none of the old clauses were enforceable. It also contended that the 1892 and 1924 agreements were inequitable and arbitrary and there was also some compulsion in entering into these agreements. Tamilnadu argued that the Agreement was permanent in nature.
Last edited by SSridhar on 04 Apr 2008 20:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Dude.. OT.. but seriously what are you smoking ? . Karnataka in its present form (TN for that matter as well, and as for that matter Kerala), never existed in it's present form EVER in history. All these came after the states reorganization.shaardula wrote:...at all points in time in history the below the ghatta people have been tied to the greater karnataka. even in the heart of tulunadu, kannada is deeply rooted.
in 1100s when basavanna revolted against caste system in bidar (NW KA), guess who was the primary force called in to fight for sanatana dharma? the tuLu speaking banTas from SW Ka. one of the words for soldier in kannada with shades of samurai is banTa.
what is called as dharmasthala the most revered place in ka, is managed by tuLu speaking jains. the temple is patronized by a zillions tuLuvas. they together have done more for kannada, across karnataka, dharwad, mysore etc than perhaps the sundry govt departments themselves.
Frankly Tulu and Coorgi are far closer to Malayalam and Tamil than to Kannada. That doesn't mean anything of course , but just to put things in perspective.
When I was in Coorg , i stayed in a coffee estate and while hanging out with him, I could understand nearly everything he told his workers in Coorgi. He also told me that they preferred to have a separate state, but it was Poonacha (if I remember correctly from what he said) and Nehru who persuaded them to be a part of Karnataka. Sure.. the most easily accesible path to Coorg is from Mysore and they are very closely linked to Mysore state for a long time. Dont see a problem really with being a part of KA.
Sure.. Have to fully agree with you on this.i agree, it is way beyond us now. too much distrust. it will take mega visionaries to solve this. i dunno about TN, but in KA there are none at the moment. we have enough to keep the pot boiling though. till somebody perhaps a maNipuri comes and solves the problem for us.
lets not get into linguistics right now. linguistic distance between tamil and kannada itself is not that much. read up, guess where the cradle of proto-dravidian was? right, krishna godavari basin. not cauvery. i picked up tamil in months, outside india. before that i learnt to read tamil boards during one of my a week long trips to TN. salem was the first word i read. next was jayalalitha. to be fair there was a huge image, but i could read the aksharas that made her name, even if they were in big colourful fonts. doesn't mean much. if you love panini you theorize structure, if you believe in later day chomsky/pinker you theorize wires. theories dont matter. what is is what is.
there is a reason they are called dravidian languages. point is there are distinct evolutions, aided in part by geography, in part by the meta culture of the indic people, and we've held onto that. there some papers out there doing value judgements on the evolutions, (linguists prefer some evolutions over the other, tamil does this better, kannada does this better, middle dravidian telugu does something else better) but even they cannot conclude anything significant or un-natural about the actual evolutionary paths. i speak 4 'dravidian' languages, love all of them. 2 'indo aryan'. i bet half the janta here does more than that.
there are regular, meetings of kodavas in mysore. guess what they talk about? it is way more nuanced than what you make it out to be. i personally, mostly i agree with them. we have a bunch of morons doing policy in BLR.
oh!! i forgot about the smoking part. you are making a serious mistake. in greater interest of brf, i will drop haLegannada, in current kannada, godavari inda kaveri varegu kannada desha is the most quoted kannada phrase ever. you are mistaking politics with kannada span. like people do with there was never a india before british. thanks to chalukyas you can find inscriptions in kannada all across india, bihar rajasthan, ajanta ellora... but people have always intuitively understood what kannada heartland is. give and take a few parts, KA current boundaries cover it all.
konga tamil of coimbatore, is very very similar to kannada spoken in southern parts of south karnataka. is it a surprise or even a deal?
there is a reason they are called dravidian languages. point is there are distinct evolutions, aided in part by geography, in part by the meta culture of the indic people, and we've held onto that. there some papers out there doing value judgements on the evolutions, (linguists prefer some evolutions over the other, tamil does this better, kannada does this better, middle dravidian telugu does something else better) but even they cannot conclude anything significant or un-natural about the actual evolutionary paths. i speak 4 'dravidian' languages, love all of them. 2 'indo aryan'. i bet half the janta here does more than that.
there are regular, meetings of kodavas in mysore. guess what they talk about? it is way more nuanced than what you make it out to be. i personally, mostly i agree with them. we have a bunch of morons doing policy in BLR.
oh!! i forgot about the smoking part. you are making a serious mistake. in greater interest of brf, i will drop haLegannada, in current kannada, godavari inda kaveri varegu kannada desha is the most quoted kannada phrase ever. you are mistaking politics with kannada span. like people do with there was never a india before british. thanks to chalukyas you can find inscriptions in kannada all across india, bihar rajasthan, ajanta ellora... but people have always intuitively understood what kannada heartland is. give and take a few parts, KA current boundaries cover it all.
konga tamil of coimbatore, is very very similar to kannada spoken in southern parts of south karnataka. is it a surprise or even a deal?
Last edited by shaardula on 04 Apr 2008 18:58, edited 1 time in total.
Aditya_V, it seems that the contention of KA is that a part of Hoganekkal belongs to KA and so TN cannot tap waters there. Now, the Cauvery river briefly enters TN at Hoganekkal in Dharmapuri Distt. and turns along the inter-state boundary before re-appearing into TN permanently at the trijunction of Salem, Erode KA. Cauvery enters the erstwhile Madras Presidency at the boundary between Kollegal taluk of the then Coimbatore (Kollegal is now in KA) district and Dharmapuri taluk of the then Salem district (presently Pennagaram taluk of Dharmapuri district). Detailed maps are available for over a century and the issue can be settled very easily.Aditya_V wrote:I think this thread is off topic- Lets come to the main issue. Why is Karnataka against TN providing drinking water to 2 district after the water has aldready been discharged from KA.
TN has aldready said no electricity or irrigation from the project.
Even for power generation, there are provisions as these will be run-of-river systems with strict conditions on the length of days to which water can be impounded, when water can be impounded to create a dead storage etc. Remember that we have a very complex Indus Water Treaty with an enemy country. These issues should not be too difficult to resolve between Indian states if emotions are kept aside and chauvinistic politicians and groups are not involved from either side.
Last edited by SSridhar on 04 Apr 2008 19:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Nationalise the river
It is the right time to announce Nationalisation of Rivers that will at least put an end to any disputes temporarily. Nationalise all the rivers and bring the rivers under Central Government. Then it is easy to share it in a way possible for the people following the Indian Constitution and International understanding of water sharing.
Nobody is claiming all of the water. But release will be based upon mutual affinity and compassion. If historical use is the only criterion then what KA is trying to do is to establish a new historical use pattern where it uses 50% of Kaveri water. 100 years from now what will historical use be? Eh?vina wrote:Very funny logic. That is not the way it works. If that is the case UP/HP will claim nearly all the waters of the Ganges. China will claim all the waters of Brahmaputra , Sudan will claim all the waters of the Nile and no lower riperian state along huge multi country rivers like the Rhine will get any water.mayurav wrote:It is clear that KA should get atleast half of the total availaility since its catchment area contribution is >50%. The tribunal award is patently unfair.
Same with Sudan, China or UP. If there is compassion and FAIRNESS then water will be released downstream else it won't be. And this is not a Kannadaiga vs Tamilian issue. Even if it were Tamilians all the way to Kodagu it would have been the same issue.
It is a shame that people and languages are being attacked in both TN and KA.
And it is a shame that people sitting in Bengaluru are arguing for some dudes in Tanjavur just because they share the same language.
Shaardula,time and again you have been saying these types of fantastic things for a while now
We started out with claims and counterclaims, at the state level between KA and TN. The next logical progression is the local claims from the area where people have traditionally been along the Kaveri river area. Hogenekal people are claiming water for drinking, rightfully so, since they live around that area. With due respect, your selective opinions about the Kodavas, Tulus, etc is one side of the coin, there are other diabolically different opinions expressed by people and the print media, nothing fantastic about such claims, merely factual. They have grievances from bad roads, schools, development money and a whole host of issues that are no different than any part of India. The state boundaries were recently made but before this they had a distinct identity. Sure, now they accept the state and concept of India but they still celebrate their uniqueness and distinctiveness, food, language, culture and norms. This is not new in India, we allow full diversity in unity of the nation.
Nevertheless, the point is that claims can be made and heard from all sides. Resorting to violence is not the way forward. Every time the water issue comes up, Bluru thugs start a rampage and the thugs in TN do the same nonsense. Politicians on both sides are taking advantage of the divisive nature of claims. So what is the solution for water needs. The only way out is Nationalization of water resources in India, which is my original stance on this topic. And I agree with the above stmt of Joshvajohn.
Saar, if the catchement area in TN is larger and it contributes >50% of water to Kaveri then why does it need water to be released from KA?bala wrote:Looking at the river's course and lengths, I doubt the claims on %..
http://waterresources.kar.nic.in/river_systems.htm
has the following:
The catchment area of entire Cauvery Basin is 81,155-sq. km.
Karnataka
34,273 sq. km.
Tamil nadu
43,868 sq. km.
Unless your argument is that water from TN catchment area flows into KA and then into TN via the Kaveri? Still the same solution - harvest that water in TN itself and screw those farmers in Mysuru and Mandya and the techies in Bengaluru!
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heard something called natural right /fundamental right ?.. KA and TN both have fundamental rights to Kaveri water. and that has to be shared equitably, based on common sense , rationality and common good.mayurav wrote:. But release will be based upon mutual affinity and compassion.
Neither need depend on the others "compassion" .
I strongly believe that historical usages of Kaveri water will change. The solution is to make the transition as painless as possible. Kaveri delta area is projected to be rich in hydrocarbons. I am sure that the industrious and smart Tamils will be able to exploit this new treasure and wean themselves away from agriculture.
For transitioning individual families (or villages) from the Mandya/Mysuru region could be paired up with counterparts in Thanjavur and reach some kind of income sharing agreement until a transition to an alternative economy occurs. I have faith that individuals and village leaders can interact much better and arrive at a fair solution.
And I think if a religious person handles this issue, it will make a big positive impact. Maybe Sri Sri Ravishankar is ideally suited to sort out the sharing of Kaveri waters.
For transitioning individual families (or villages) from the Mandya/Mysuru region could be paired up with counterparts in Thanjavur and reach some kind of income sharing agreement until a transition to an alternative economy occurs. I have faith that individuals and village leaders can interact much better and arrive at a fair solution.
And I think if a religious person handles this issue, it will make a big positive impact. Maybe Sri Sri Ravishankar is ideally suited to sort out the sharing of Kaveri waters.
What happened to "historical use"? Common sense - yes, rationality - yes, common good - yes.vina wrote:heard something called natural right /fundamental right ?.. KA and TN both have fundamental rights to Kaveri water. and that has to be shared equitably, based on common sense , rationality and common good.mayurav wrote:. But release will be based upon mutual affinity and compassion.
Neither need depend on the others "compassion" .
Harping about historical use is pointless. It would be like the British or Mughals saying "we have been historically ruling India" and therefore we should continue to do so!
Back to the just use of the waters - one option is to say that river water is a national/state resource and tax it and redistribute the wealth. But then there is the danger of money ending up in unrelated 3rd person's pocket!
mayurav wrote:
There should be a national water policy that outlines the responsibility of the state in bringing water to each state in proportion to its population by whatever means necessary.
The solutions will then have to be applied based on local constraints and strengths.
There should be public records of the water availability broken down on a district-by-district level measured in units of water available per person per day-- and these figures must be available (and verifiable) on an annual basis and released on schedule to the public every year. The districts that are farthest away from the national average in that unit of measurement need higher priority.
Citizens need to push for transparent govt. processes, so that the corrupt babus cannot hide behind legalese and officialdom. They need to be directly accountable for their performance and be allowed to function without interference from local politicians/thugs/goondas with the full backing of the state to ensure that the babus perform their official duties without interference.
Redistributing the wealth is the wrong way to do it, since the money generated should be recycled into the national water grid, and this should also be done for electricity and other public resources that the GoI is responsible for -- the money collected should be used for the upkeep and improvement of the national water/electricity grid.Back to the just use of the waters - one option is to say that river water is a national/state resource and tax it and redistribute the wealth.
There should be a national water policy that outlines the responsibility of the state in bringing water to each state in proportion to its population by whatever means necessary.
The solutions will then have to be applied based on local constraints and strengths.
There should be public records of the water availability broken down on a district-by-district level measured in units of water available per person per day-- and these figures must be available (and verifiable) on an annual basis and released on schedule to the public every year. The districts that are farthest away from the national average in that unit of measurement need higher priority.
Citizens need to push for transparent govt. processes, so that the corrupt babus cannot hide behind legalese and officialdom. They need to be directly accountable for their performance and be allowed to function without interference from local politicians/thugs/goondas with the full backing of the state to ensure that the babus perform their official duties without interference.
Last edited by Rye on 04 Apr 2008 22:43, edited 1 time in total.
I like Vina's idea of stretching each water drop to the maximum. This is a great opportunity for Universities, Researchers and private enterprise to come together and provide multiple good solutions. Not one, but few of them - so that people can pick and choose based on factors.
The very thought of linking rivers at a national level, leaves my tummy with a queasy feeling. But I am all for regional level. Instead of a giant grid through out the country, I like several smaller grids that are independent of each other - grids created based on geography.
RWH using traditional methods utilizing our lakes & ponds, & stretching each drop of water.
We need to improve and modernize irrigation techniques.
Instead of getting water from the northern glacier fed rivers by linking rivers, get bottled water from those sources.
Give desalination of water higher priority and get that going.
Universities & private companies can play different roles at different levels. There is opportunity for them to make money and help the people.
Sun TV carried news item on this issue. I looked at some of the important players on both sides - KA & TN - they uniformly look like each other across the border and appear to be opportunistic to the core. The rivalry between two states has grown to such an extent that nobody cares who is right or wrong.
I was looking at hooligans (that's what I would call them) smashing and breaking windows of buses in TN. Those buses were KA buses. The cops were just standing around.
Man what damages to public transportation and costs. It is getting ridiculous, silly and bad for the states and the country.
Water was free in the ancient days, these days we get billed for water. Times have changed. Our humongous population requires more water, and we have just finite water supply. Indra, Varuna, Vaayu have some rules and regulations.
Time to ask our scientific and private entities to kick the whole thing couple of notches.
The very thought of linking rivers at a national level, leaves my tummy with a queasy feeling. But I am all for regional level. Instead of a giant grid through out the country, I like several smaller grids that are independent of each other - grids created based on geography.
RWH using traditional methods utilizing our lakes & ponds, & stretching each drop of water.
We need to improve and modernize irrigation techniques.
Instead of getting water from the northern glacier fed rivers by linking rivers, get bottled water from those sources.
Give desalination of water higher priority and get that going.
Universities & private companies can play different roles at different levels. There is opportunity for them to make money and help the people.
Sun TV carried news item on this issue. I looked at some of the important players on both sides - KA & TN - they uniformly look like each other across the border and appear to be opportunistic to the core. The rivalry between two states has grown to such an extent that nobody cares who is right or wrong.
I was looking at hooligans (that's what I would call them) smashing and breaking windows of buses in TN. Those buses were KA buses. The cops were just standing around.
Man what damages to public transportation and costs. It is getting ridiculous, silly and bad for the states and the country.
Water was free in the ancient days, these days we get billed for water. Times have changed. Our humongous population requires more water, and we have just finite water supply. Indra, Varuna, Vaayu have some rules and regulations.
Time to ask our scientific and private entities to kick the whole thing couple of notches.