South India River Water Issues/Disputes

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SSridhar
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Post by SSridhar »

Naveen, there are rights and wrongs on both sides. Unfortunately, emotion is allowed to overtake the real issues by both sides.
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Post by SaiK »

What I would say is no state has a right to destroy another state's quest., of course they can compete against but not play politics and be spoilsport. TN politicians and their politics is weird in any state on the planet. The faster we de-kazhagize, the faster TN would be obliging. That means, TN people needs to let in other national parties to play as well [con-graze, ba-Japs, etc]. < Nukkad point > ;).

I understand water issues are touchy, but TN needs should look for alternatives, and catch water from air or desalinate, and get it going. If it comes from the river, be happy. The ground water table recycling is an excellent idea. All constructions should go for that approach anywhere in India, where they don't just waste rain water to drains, and that does'nt capture the water to its place, rather routes it somewhere useless place.

I'd love Palghat to have the separate railway zone. Why isn't AKA able to imprezz hiz laloo biradhar? Palghat desparately needs a nice railway station as well, and its a pretty important junction connecting KA and TN. Its an ideal spot. Railways must oblige.

Another point we need to touchis standardizations. Where are we on this. No implementation of this basic factor, in infrastructure, roads, facilities, utitlities, etc., besides I want this factor to spread into other aspects, like freedom, paths, politics, allocations, budget, tiering of cities, administration etc. Our setup needs a little shake up since we are getting into a huge middle class economy.

Many things can be addressed by standardizations.
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Post by SaiK »

btw, I love this ban on tamil channels. :twisted: they are 90% cr@p and 10% good. I told my wife to unsubscribe from sun, successfully staying out from the crap for about 6 months now.

I know I am speaking about the crap and not about the Ka-Tn issues. But, a blessing in disguise for the tamBiradhers, that if this continues for a year or two [of course none stopping them to visit theaters, shows, and dvds], and they would realize how much crap they saved themselves to watch and degrade their quality of life.

:twisted:
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Post by KarthikSan »

Raju wrote:All efforts by Kerala for making Palghat a railway zone and for making Vizhinjam a transhipment harbor has been hijacked by the TN lobby at centre.
The reason is economics. Coimbatore district which falls in the Palghat railway zone contributes most of the revenue in that zone. But the powers that be in Kerala siphon all the money into Kerala with little development to Coimbatore junction. You guys are most welcome to create your own railway zone. But just leave Coimbatore out of it.
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Post by KarthikSan »

SaiK wrote:btw, I love this ban on tamil channels. :twisted: they are 90% cr@p and 10% good. I told my wife to unsubscribe from sun, successfully staying out from the crap for about 6 months now.

I know I am speaking about the crap and not about the Ka-Tn issues. But, a blessing in disguise for the tamBiradhers, that if this continues for a year or two [of course none stopping them to visit theaters, shows, and dvds], and they would realize how much crap they saved themselves to watch and degrade their quality of life.

:twisted:
Why just Tamil channels? Sun owns the most number of channels in all the South Indian languages. Just turn on Surya, Ushe, Udaya and any other translation of Sun and you'll just see dubbed cr@p.

And I bet Etv, Asianet and all the others, including Star, Zee, Sony etc. are airing intellectually stimulating shows! Why don't you just cut out all cable and watch Doordarshan?
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Post by SaiK »

I disagree. States should not be vehement on railway zones. They only play for planning and land aquisitions for railway land. rest its railways and zoning.

Besides, lets accept its dirty politics., and this is where standardizations and allocations will help. you have one, i have one too. in certain border cases, the choice is left to railways, but disputed ones handled by such standardizations.
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Post by Rye »

If India is going to be facing a water and an energy crisis at the same time, why not try to combine solutions and create technologies where water will be a byproduct of creating energy? Or if that is not possible, produce enough energy to run massive desalination plants.
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Post by SaiK »

Its fast approaching.. even the when factor, people can estimate easily. India will face crisis with in the next decade, especially south.
Raju

Post by Raju »

SaiK wrote:Its fast approaching.. even the when factor, people can estimate easily. India will face crisis with in the next decade, especially south.
that is why arguments have to take place before the crises and a sense of equilibrium established beforehand so that crises can pass over more smoothly.

btw crises or no crises .. there is nothing that can stop India inshallah !
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Post by ramana »

How much is the impending elections a factor in all this rhetoric in the three states?
Raju

Post by Raju »

Could be an election year issue .. but TN has to have atleast one water based dispute every year. That has been the trend for past few years now.
Raju

Post by Raju »

KarthikSan wrote:
Raju wrote:All efforts by Kerala for making Palghat a railway zone and for making Vizhinjam a transhipment harbor has been hijacked by the TN lobby at centre.
The reason is economics. Coimbatore district which falls in the Palghat railway zone contributes most of the revenue in that zone. But the powers that be in Kerala siphon all the money into Kerala with little development to Coimbatore junction. You guys are most welcome to create your own railway zone. But just leave Coimbatore out of it.
'Give and take' for mutual profit is the secret behind any business or relationship no ? Kerala gives TN water .. and in return you accept Palghat Railway zone and primacy of Vizhinjam harbor for transhipment. Is this not possible ?
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Post by bala »

shaardula, very nice write up on KA. One thing you forget about the Gatta area is the South Kanara folks who detest Kannada chauvinism. I am of course talking about the minorities like Tulu, Konkan and Kodavas. Tulu shivalis don't want to be identified with the Gowda slogan chanting clan of KA and would rather be merged with TN, they were once a part of Madras Presidency under the British. Kodavas want to be distinct and are clamoring for an independent area. Konkans are too entrenched in business to bother with any of this charade.
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Post by KarthikSan »

Raju wrote:
KarthikSan wrote: The reason is economics. Coimbatore district which falls in the Palghat railway zone contributes most of the revenue in that zone. But the powers that be in Kerala siphon all the money into Kerala with little development to Coimbatore junction. You guys are most welcome to create your own railway zone. But just leave Coimbatore out of it.
'Give and take' for mutual profit is the secret behind any business or relationship no ? Kerala gives TN water .. and in return you accept Palghat Railway zone and primacy of Vizhinjam harbor for transhipment. Is this not possible ?
Raju Saar, TN gives jobs for the water it gets. Why don't you come to Coimbatore and check out half the work force? Kerala keeps telling everyone that it gives out almost all of the Siruvani dam water to Coimbatore. More than 30% of the population of Coimbatore is Keralite. So who do they give it to? In fact the running joke in Coimbatore is, you cannot stumble and fall without hitting a Mallu :lol:

The railway issue is more of a who creates more revenue and who gets the jobs thing. If the zone is established in Palakkas can the railways guarantee that any appointments will be impartial. Even now Coimbatore is in the Palakkad division. Just come to Coimbatore junction and see who gets all the contracts and the jobs.

Since we have the Paki/Nazi streak in us (as per Dileep Saar) we should pack them up and send them back to the Walayar border :twisted:
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Post by ramana »

Hey folks I dont want anymore abrasive posts. OK Kapiche? if you cant be civil you dont need to be on the forum anymore.
Thanks, ramana
Raju

Post by Raju »

KarthikSan wrote:
Raju wrote: 'Give and take' for mutual profit is the secret behind any business or relationship no ? Kerala gives TN water .. and in return you accept Palghat Railway zone and primacy of Vizhinjam harbor for transhipment. Is this not possible ?
Raju Saar, TN gives jobs for the water it gets. Why don't you come to Coimbatore and check out half the work force? Kerala keeps telling everyone that it gives out almost all of the Siruvani dam water to Coimbatore. More than 30% of the population of Coimbatore is Keralite. So who do they give it to? In fact the running joke in Coimbatore is, you cannot stumble and fall without hitting a Mallu :lol:
how lucky Coimbatore is !
The railway issue is more of a who creates more revenue and who gets the jobs thing. If the zone is established in Palakkas can the railways guarantee that any appointments will be impartial. Even now Coimbatore is in the Palakkad division. Just come to Coimbatore junction and see who gets all the contracts and the jobs.

Since we have the Paki/Nazi streak in us (as per Dileep Saar) we should pack them up and send them back to the Walayar border
You know human beings by nature are not impartial .. and come with bag and baggage of biases. But Keralites by nature have a certain streak .. most ministers and bureaucrats from that state who have represented it in the centre have done zilch for it. They have always thought about India, World (in case of communists), pseudo-capitalists, petty bourgouise and so on.

You should know why ramana garu keeps saying that Keralites understand foreign psyche better than anyone else, cause they rarely think about themselves. And if they indeed do (PBUT) it is a newborn streak whose longetivity is yet untested and shall crumble under slightest pressure. So no worries there is hope on that front.
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Post by vina »

Raju wrote:All efforts by Kerala for making Palghat a railway zone and for making Vizhinjam a transhipment harbor has been hijacked by the TN lobby at centre. Now there is no railway zone in Kerala and the Vizhinjam (it is the deepest natural harbour in India and naturally conducive to x-large DWT ships) harbor transhipment project is being rivalled by Tuticorin on the east coast.
Been watching too many conspiracy movies have we? . TN lobby at the Center ? For a long time, most railway minsters were from the North. In fact, I cant recall a single Railway minister from TN ever. The last from the south, CK. Jaffer Sharief from Bangalore did a lot for Karnataka.. Why dont you get the commies you voted for in Kerala to join the govt and get the railway ministry portfolio and do something for Kerala .

As for Tuticorin, it has nothing to do with Vizhingam.The catchment areas are interior parts of southern TN. Vizhingam and Tuticorin serve different areas and can co-exist. Tuticorin's main competition is Colombo and that is why the Sri Lankan's are hopping mad about SethuSamudram.

Same with the Palakkad divsion. I thought they gave Palakkad a railway plant or something this railway budget as compensation for creating a coimbatore division by splitting Palghat.

You dont have a decent road system in Kerala and wont allow one to be built. The railway system is sub par /pathetic with serious underinvestments over decades. The southern part from Palghat to TVM/Nagercoil is atleast okay, the norther part from Shoranur to Mangalore is simply outdated.. with signaling systems from 50 years ago the last time I traveled by that route by train (1988 or so), when other sections all over the country had gone the automatic signalling way. Those are real problems. Now those need to be fixed. For that, make the MPs whom you voted into power in Kerala actually work for you , and not just raise slogans and shout "anti imperialism"..

Anyways, if the Kerala commie unions are anything to go by chances are Vizhingam will be most inefficent of all the ports that are coming up recently.
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Post by KarthikSan »

Raju wrote:[You know human beings by nature are not impartial .. and come with bag and baggage of biases. But Keralites by nature have a certain streak .. most ministers and bureaucrats from that state who have represented it in the centre have done zilch for it. They have always thought about India, World (in case of communists), pseudo-capitalists, petty bourgouise and so on.
Here is a true story. This is the God's honest truth and I am not making this up. When I started grad school in the US there were very few Mallus at my school. We already had two Indian Student Associations, one for the ABCD type undergrads and one for the poor grads. A couple of years later the Mallu population increased to the double digits and guess what they did? They started the "Priyapatta Malayaligal Sangam" and severed all ties with the ISAs. :rotfl:

That certain streak is a little off from what you are thinking!!!
Raju

Post by Raju »

err have you forgotten about this gentleman ?
Office of the Minister for Railways

Shri Lalu Prasad Yadav,
Minister

Office of the Minister of State for Railways

Shri R. Velu,
Minister of State
R. Velu Biodata

this gent has been MoS for 4 years now manipulating all to advantage of TN much like Baaaalu & Co of ministers from TN.

Need more info Vina ?
The railway system is sub par /pathetic with serious underinvestments over decades. The southern part from Palghat to TVM/Nagercoil is atleast okay, the norther part from Shoranur to Mangalore is simply outdated.. with signaling systems from 50 years ago the last time I traveled by that route by train (1988 or so), when other sections all over the country had gone the automatic signalling way. Those are real problems. Now those need to be fixed. For that, make the MPs whom you voted into power in Kerala actually work for you , and not just raise slogans and shout "anti imperialism"..
And why has this come to this state ? Because Kerala has no Railway subdivision and was/is administered from Madras. Either it is TN lobby pressure with the power of conditional support of 40 MP's at LS.

Because of failures on all these fronts w.r.t TN the water issue has occupied primacy.

And the same commie-ruled Kerala is also host to Kochi port and Cochin Pvt Airport which are doing rather well, so let us leave governance out of this. Once infra is put in place the efficiency etc can be sorted out, and should not be an excuse for non-deliverance and sleight by neighbouring states.
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Post by vina »

shaardula wrote:ont gimme this story about giving things a rest. i am not talking socially neither am i being jingoistic. i am talking bottom line,
Ok. Let me put it bluntly . Your talk about Belgaum was just abhishtu.. These new uber jingo Vedike's are just as shrill and crazy as the dravidian parties in TN and seem to be just as violence prone. Not something I would associate with the ethos and sensibilities of sane folks in Karnataka. So get a grip on yourself.

About bottom line, I will lay it out for you. You share the river with the lower riparian state. You share both the bounty and the distress... Normally there is enough in the river for both states. The problem is in sharing the distress. Now, that is when it becomes difficult because it becomes tied with politics of the govt in power in these states, the opposition and the other lumpenised thugs on both sides .

Now both of these things wont work.

1)Normal Karnataka stance in distress : I dont care if there is a shortfall or not. I will fill my dams, grow triple crops of rice and sugarcane, generate power with the hydel storage , TN be screwed.

2)TN stance in distress : I dont care if there is a shortfall. I need to get what I always got come hell or drought. I will grow triple crop of rice and sugar cane. Karnataka be screwed.

Now obviously both need to cut down irrigation and farm consumption during years of shortfall. However this is where the political system fails and there is no leadership.

Stance no 1) is what Karnataka traditionally did, esp during Bangarappa years where Kangress true to form , also created a riot.

Stance 2) is what TN is trying to push when the tribunal gave it a guaranteed 205 tmcft under distress (i think).

Mind you , this Hogenekal stuff is a hoax. They are not fighting over something that is definitely going to happen today, but over something that might happen in future and are largely driven by apprehensions and hidden agendas. Karnataka refused to negotiate in good faith before the tribunal made the award. Now when TN won what it wanted in the tribunal, it is refusing to negotiate, while karanataka wants to negotiate!.

both sides played dirty. competitve politics makes it dirtier. de politicse it so that it can have a rational solution shorn from the theaterics and histrionics of the filmi kind .
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Post by bala »

The only way to solve water wars is for the national govt to announce a national water resource goal with the following:

a) all waters of India are national assets to be shared by all INDIANS
b) priority over drinking needs first, then comes agriculture and then comes luxury like lawns
c) inter-link all water assets so that excess in one area is channeled to the other deficit area.
d) look for alternates - desalination, solar/wind powered harvest from the surrounding sea waters of India, recycling of waste water.
e) have a national program of agriculture water needs - this includes conserving ponds, lakes, riverlets, RWH. stop all the useless state sponsored agriculture water schemes forthwith.
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Post by putnanja »

vina wrote:
shaardula wrote:ont gimme this story about giving things a rest. i am not talking socially neither am i being jingoistic. i am talking bottom line,
Now both of these things wont work.

1)Normal Karnataka stance in distress : I dont care if there is a shortfall or not. I will fill my dams, grow triple crops of rice and sugarcane, generate power with the hydel storage , TN be screwed.

2)TN stance in distress : I dont care if there is a shortfall. I need to get what I always got come hell or drought. I will grow triple crop of rice and sugar cane. Karnataka be screwed.

Now obviously both need to cut down irrigation and farm consumption during years of shortfall. However this is where the political system fails and there is no leadership.

Stance no 1) is what Karnataka traditionally did, esp during Bangarappa years where Kangress true to form , also created a riot.

Stance 2) is what TN is trying to push when the tribunal gave it a guaranteed 205 tmcft under distress (i think).

Mind you , this Hogenekal stuff is a hoax. They are not fighting over something that is definitely going to happen today, but over something that might happen in future and are largely driven by apprehensions and hidden agendas. Karnataka refused to negotiate in good faith before the tribunal made the award. Now when TN won what it wanted in the tribunal, it is refusing to negotiate, while karanataka wants to negotiate!.
Karnataka doesn't grow triple crops. And the interim tribunal gave order of 205 TMC irrespective of distress or not. Distress too needs to be shared, but the interim tribunal order was lunacy, and TN insisted on it even during lean years when water in karnataka reservoirs were hardly 80-100 TMC. They wanted water to grow 2nd and 3rd crops when Karnataka could hardly grow one crop and supply drinking water.

Just as TN is claiming today more water based on past usage, karnataka is wary of giving any leeway to TN as it can use it to its advantage later on.

Many in Karnataka feel that just because TN has been using cauvery water for a longer time doesn't mean they get the first right to it and historical use shouldn't be the basis of current requirements. Water should be shared equally between the two states.
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Post by SaiK »

bala, its hard to come up with that. water wars will be local, and national governance can only pass ordinance and set rules. beyond that, states and cities have to fight it out.

replenishing the water table and coming up with alternative strategies are excellent points. inter-linking of excess water to no or less water rivers is an excellent idea. hail kalamji.

this GoI has started with the fact that they will not venture into interlinking at all. they hate it., and this is the govt that is more friendlier with TN. If TN can't get inter-linking done at a faster rate, then TN will collapse during the next water crisis.

Only RainGods to the rescue. If tungabadra and krishnasagar overflows, then TN gets water thats it. </period >. They have lived with it, and would have to live that way.

Anybody working on large scale capturing of water from atmosphere?
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Post by Naveen »

Because the gradient of the Kaveri flow is steeper in KA than TN (as the water flows down from the Bhagamandala hills in Coorg), the canal network in KA has to be denser to capture this faster flow of water at specific points along its path. And as the dispute has been sub-judice in the tribunal, KA hasn't been able to undertake any canal work or other water tapping mechanisms like wells and small check dams along the Kaveri path in KA.

So KA has been in a catch-22 situation for more than 2 decades now: you can't utilize the water because the canal network can't be upgraded till the dispute is resolved and because your utilization is lower than potential, your irrigated acreage is lower and hence the sharing ratio with TN (which takes into account the historical utilization and the acreage) has been adversely affected from KA's perspective. So even if KA agrees to implement the tribunal order of last year fully, it has to restrict its acreage to its water share , thereby losing any chance in future to increase irrigated area in southern KA.

One more thing about the terrain is that the delta region in TN is wider and flatter by a substantial amount thereby helping increase the moisture content in the soil. One of the contentions of KA has been that in the water sharing ratio, this moisture content (which helps TN dig a large no. of wells) hasn't been taken into account while deciding the actual water availability in the TN and KA parts of the river system.
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Post by SaiK »

and why not KA do the water well digging as well near the banks? is it just because of the terrain? any test data to show that wells failed in KA?
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Post by putnanja »

In fact, TN even protested against the desilting of tanks in cauvery basins, and forced world bank to take back its aid offer( due to disputed nature). TN doesn't want the tanks to be desilted and used so that all water flows to cauvery which it can claim more of
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Post by SaiK »

RaviBg: Was that correct or wrong? I don't understand.
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Post by Naveen »

As far as my knowledge goes on this issue, the seepage levels into the sub-soil are lower near the banks in KA because the water speed is higher. And desilting of canals has been stopped because TN has objected to it being sub-judice. To achieve the same levels of efficiency of water usage as in TN delta, the networks on the KA side have to be denser and the KA govt, even if it wants to achieve this despite its usual laziness, is prevented from taking any action. Also, the TN delta region has richer top soil because the top soil washed away from KA gets deposited there. Same like the Gangetic plains soil quality.
Mettur reservoir is nearly twice bigger in storage capacity than the Krishnarajasagar (I think its 40 odd vs. 20 odd TMC ft). Today the situation is such that when rains are normal or plenty, KA doesn't have enough capacity to store it and releases it downstream. TN too doesn't have full capacity to store this for the future. During distress time, KA and TN go up in flames and we see the drama-baazi from both sides.
All in all, the TN delta has benefited from being a lower riparian due to the terrain and soil and historical 3 crop pattern. But KA's actions have been boxed in by the TN govt, as KA alleges, to prevent potential irrigated acreage on the KA side to go up.
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Post by bala »

SaiK wrote:bala, its hard to come up with that. water wars will be local, and national governance can only pass ordinance and set rules. beyond that, states and cities have to fight it out.

Anybody working on large scale capturing of water from atmosphere?
SaiK, the reason I am proposing national governance, is that unlike say the US wherein major rivers are state boundaries, India has no inbuilt mechanism to avoid major disputes over national resources. Why is this a big deal? If you find oil or uranium in your back yard, the GOI can claim eminent domain over the resources. Assam for instance supplies oil for the rest of the nation. Uranium is available in Bihar area. Major water resources are in the Himalayan Region. India grants lower riparian rights to TSP and BDs.

India has enough water resources to supply the entire nation. Currently 80% is wasted into the sea. Technically, there is an abundance of supply, but the folly of not using things properly is where we are today. What does it take - lots of prudent investment and a national policy.

The states need to only wisely utilize national resources without wastage and excesses.

Atmospheric water capture can only provide drinking water in remote areas. A backyard portable kit powerd by wind/solar might work. Agriculture water needs are too vast for such a scheme. A better solution is surrounding seas that India is so blessed to have. NIOT already harvests water from the sea using flash evaporation/condensation scheme.
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Post by SaiK »

water any way can't be tabled along with nukes and oil, as water is more basic. hence, my argument on nationalizing the resouces.

of course we all are right aboute the rights. inter-linking if done, should reduce the massive problems imho., have we moved that status from being in the feasibility to doability? nope.

BD may be actually benefitted with inter linking that is indeed comes with dams and controls for linking, hence its not a link that is not de-linkable or controllable.

I understand people are against this because they don't see science since they are basically economics people. Its not about the money, but to keep the water table the same, as we build more dams. And the amount of water going wasted into seas may be the only issue, which imho, is neglible compared to the benefits, and can be declared correct.

It could take another 50 years to get the ground levels perfect if we start on the linking exercise now. We have been arguing for 20 years without progress.

Its important we de-link casually TSP and BD from this discussion.
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Post by putnanja »

SaiK wrote:RaviBg: Was that correct or wrong? I don't understand.
I meant that TN opposed desilting of tanks in cauvery basin in Karnataka, so that rain water is not stored in them. These tanks are hundreds of years old and were primarily used for irrigation purpose in Karnataka.
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Post by Rye »

Going by the behaviour of the KA and TN govts., it appears that the state govts. cannot be trusted to make decisions in the National interest, seeing as to how the state parties are more interesting in inflaming the situation for electoral gains -- nothing short of nationalizing rivers is going to work when state govts. behave in completely irresponsible ways.

If water is going to be a very scarce resource down the line, there would need to be a coordinated approach to try and avoid calamities involving lack of drinking water in different parts of the country -- going by the behaviour of the TN and KA govts., state govts. cannot be trusted to look out for the overall public interest (as opposed to Karunanidhi's and Deve Gowda's interests).
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Post by SwamyG »

20th century was a century about Oil. 21st century is going to be about Water. With the kind of population we have, we have to actively look at technology.

Dean Kamen's interview on Steven Colbert show
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Post by SaiK »

RaviBg wrote:
SaiK wrote:RaviBg: Was that correct or wrong? I don't understand.
I meant that TN opposed desilting of tanks in cauvery basin in Karnataka, so that rain water is not stored in them. These tanks are hundreds of years old and were primarily used for irrigation purpose in Karnataka.
Then I don't think they can prevent this under any courts. Wonder why KA lost to this?
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Post by SSridhar »

RaviBg wrote:In fact, TN even protested against the desilting of tanks in cauvery basins, and forced world bank to take back its aid offer( due to disputed nature). TN doesn't want the tanks to be desilted and used so that all water flows to cauvery which it can claim more of
RaviBG, I think you are referring to the World Bank assisted Community Based Tank Management project. It excluded the tanks in the Cauvery basin area because of the objections, no doubt. In a similar vein, KA objected in the 60s and 80s for modernization of Cauvery delta in TN again after the WB was willing to fund on both the occassions. The waterways and waterbodies in the Cauvery delta have been extensive and many of them date back to the Chola period. There are 36 distributaries, running into 1,600 km. Different categories of channels cover 35,000 km. There are also 700 small and medium tanks.

Every water dispute is cumbersome & complex to resolve. In India, they are made even worse because of the emotional nature of the people and the chauvinistic politicians. It applies equally to both KA & TN.
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Post by Rajesh_MR »

ramana wrote:How much is the impending elections a factor in all this rhetoric in the three states?
I am not getting into who should get how much.
IMO: Whole reason this issue got limelight now is because of impending KA elections and prospective of AIDMK tying up with BJP to contest in some constituencies with sizable Tamil speaking population(this news was floating in channels 2/3 weeks back). MK probably is looking to preempt any potential growth AIDMK might have outside TN. Whats better than water to washout rivals!
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Post by vina »

RaviBg wrote:Just as TN is claiming today more water based on past usage, karnataka is wary of giving any leeway to TN as it can use it to its advantage later on.
Ravi, this dynamic is exactly the problem. Just as Karnataka feels "wary" of giving leeway to TN, TN feels the same about letting Karanataka expand irrigation. The problem is if you build irrigation networks to the maximum possible on both sides based on max flow , how will you share distress. The political pressure on karnataka will be immense to feed it's expanded irrigation at the expense of TN in a dry year. Fundamentally the problem is about sharing pain. How will anyone ensure that the pain is shared equally on both sides and not disproportionately .? The Karnataka govt wont and can't .. And TN cannot depend on the goodwill of the KA govt on this issues. They have been screwed repeatedly in the 80s on this, until they took it to court.

It is impossible to do so with the current win-lose dynamic. This is a classic prisoner's dilemma game, where the dominant strategy is lose-lose. It cannot generate a Pareto optimal solution which is what will benefit the maximum number of people on both sides to the fullest extent possible.

To get out of the dynamic, the central govt should step in as a facilitator and force both sides to negotiate something that is sensible. We could get neutral arbitrators (swiss/scandinavian/world bank/whoever) who is seen as beyond the reach of politicking in Delhi and the Govt of India should stand as guarantor to the implementation of the award and ensure implementation in distress condition. Maybe the entire Kaveri basin should be managed by an independent authority that is given constitutional guarantees against interference by the state govts on both sides... That will take it out of the realm of politics, (esp of the street level kind) and then sensible and rational decision making can be made with full transparency.
RaviBg wrote: Many in Karnataka feel that just because TN has been using cauvery water for a longer time doesn't mean they get the first right to it and historical use shouldn't be the basis of current requirements. Water should be shared equally between the two states.
Ravi, the equal part is debatable and has to be backed by facts , rationale and logic. What is the ratio of Kaveri's length in KA , esp the plains from Kushalnagar to Hogenekal ?. What is the length in TN ? . Does all the water in Kaveri come from Karnataka ? What about catchment areas in TN ? It is dishonest to ask TN to tap ground water (which is not a sustainable resource) , while KA goes expanding irrigation.. I still remember Bangarappa refused to release water, because he said that they needed a good head of water in KRS to generate power in summer, all the while when there were record shortfalls and drought in TN. ! Such attitudes of "I dont care if you are facing drougth, but I wont release water because I need to generate hydel power" simply wont do. And to cover that up by creating a riot is simply unacceptable.

Historical usage patterns is settled law. If you want changes to it, you need to negotiate in good faith. Not the way KA has been going about it. And frankly, any litigation based on law was always going to end in TN's favor. Karnataka simply refused to negotiate in the 80s and strong armed TN.. Now that the award went along expected legal lines, KA wants to negotiate, while TN sees absolutely no need to do so and will press for implementing the award. ..The rabble rousing street politics of the vedikes and all the parties in KA and the dynamics of appearing as a "sell out/ traitor" are a big reason for that.

Clearly, if you want expanded irrigation from the limited amount of water, both sides need to get more efficient on how they use the water..
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Post by Sanku »

Hello Folks;

While I have no opinion (havent educated myself on the facts) on the current dispute -- it seems that the in the political context the current situation is because of Karunanidhi stirring the pot.

MK refuses to be blamed for TN-Karnataka water war

SM Krishna does not seem like some one who will make allegations if they were completely baseless.

As expected; some politicians in India do not mind indulging in cheap partisanship if it remotely helps them to win elections by fabricating divides.

This assesment of mine also ties in with the post that Rajesh_MR made above that the whole purpose of the hullaballo is to hurt the AIADMK+BJP tie up and hence the matter needed to be played up.

Surely the dispute was being handled quitely untill MK decided to make inflammatory speeches -- this guy did the same on Sethusamduram issue before; and tied up with Muslim extremist groups too. The Maran episode where he ridiculed a good minister for personal enmity is rather recent too. So is his encouraging the hooliganism by Stalin and co. Not to mention TV give away feature and the fact that TN has had one of the worst performance indications over last few years (as per central govt reports)

He surely deserves an equal footing to Lalu Prasad in the category of politicians who are a blight on India.
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Post by SSridhar »

vina wrote:Maybe the entire Kaveri basin should be managed by an independent authority that is given constitutional guarantees against interference by the state govts on both sides... That will take it out of the realm of politics, (esp of the street level kind) and then sensible and rational decision making can be made with full transparency.
Enforceability of Tribunal's or Supreme Court's decision is the problem. States are violating with impunity and there is no way to make them implement awards. This is a constitutional breakdown. Unfortunately, if a government is dismissed for this, that party will become a martyr in the eyes of the people and it will make matters worse. Then, there are leaders in TN, for example, who will openly talk about seceding. Unfortunately, we do not have mature and informed leaders with integrity and scruples. Frankly, I do not see any solution here. We will have to live with riots and madness whenever there is a rainfall deficiency or a new project is taken up.
Last edited by SSridhar on 03 Apr 2008 16:28, edited 1 time in total.
SSridhar
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Post by SSridhar »

Sanku, that MK will plumb to any depth for his (and more so for his own family's) success is a well known fact. He has been a rabble rouser throughout his career. He said that "his patience was limited and the integrity of India was at stake" with regard to this issue. These were certainly unwarranted. Unfortunately, we do not have politicians of calibre. But, by the time he said that, the riots and attacks had already happened in Bangalore. There is no dearth of similar politicians on the KA side.

However, this Hoganekkal issue was created by Yediyurappa. IMHO, he is to be solely blamed for this. If anybody is doing this for political considerations, it is he.
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