South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Jan 2012 03:29

I believe in if you cannot defeat them them join them and break them from the inside.

It always works if one knows how to do it. I know it is wishful thinking in this case, because the swords are drawn.

When I was in KL, the only thing I heard was safety. To me personally ownership is more important to address all issue. If the constitution throws the spanner, then subvert it other ways from within it. Make super sets of everything and throw it all back at the center. Free movement across the whole of India, and no more local jingoism. I am all for it so will most migrant types.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jan 2012 04:40

Long time back, I was teased in KL bus stand for being non-native malloo speaking.. I do understand malayalam, but I can't speak back. I was attacked in chennai, TN, thinking I came from NI, and we (3 friends) were note speaking tamil. Though I did not face similar problems in KA, I never felt first class citizen as many kanndigas would not consider me pure kannad. Mumbai, I am all feeling out paced, and delhi I get harassed with foul language if I asked about a bus route and destination.

India all over, we had issues of these sorts. I hope things have matured now.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Jan 2012 06:21

I am told Vaikol and his people are still not allowing any kind of traffic across the palakkad gap by road. Do not know about train services, but how come the CRPF is not sent to the border to disperse off these rowdy elements in the first place.

It is time to para-drop mallus into TN as the next step. Well at least dummies wearing lungi.

Let us see if Vaikol can do a air blockade.

So where does the constitution stand on blocking inter-state traffic flow

when it has gone to great lengths to ensure inter-state water flow.

It is one thing to block vegetable deliveries to KL, but why are all sorts of private vehicles being allowed to be blocked for almost two weeks now. Even the good old robinhood Veerappan was more civilized in behavior than the current crop of TN politicians and their supporters.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Jan 2012 06:32

SaiK, if it is any consolation for you, I used to be picked upon for speaking Malayalam like a chettiar. You get over it. But the worse was in TN when you asked the only reply was in Tamil, and the tone not so friendly. The only place I found myself made to feel as a true second class citizen in India was right there in Madras, despite being a metro. Dunno much about other cities in TN, though people whom I knew very closely had a very different personality. So when people encounter strangers, they behave their worst is what I concluded from that experience. Very different from other places in India, including the wild Naarth.

vina · Post by **vina** » 04 Jan 2012 08:51

As expected Mullaperiyar and Idukki Dams safe, Experts tell Panel

And logically too, Kerala's Please to reduce water level rejected

And as agreed by the Empowered Committee ..None of the tremors had any effect on Mullaperiyar :TN

“The false propaganda of 22 tremors in the last four months weakening the dam is being made without any basis. In fact, there have been only four tremors in the current year and, in fact, such tremors have been occurring over many years. But, none of them has had any impact on the Mullaperiyar dam as their magnitudes were far below 4.9 and are classified as ‘slight' by the Indian Meteorological Department (IMD).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jan 2012 09:53

What I am indirectly saying is.. Bade, we are truly not a single country. We are composite, and hence WE would never feel it unless we are part of central command or the forces. Dividing states by languages was bad, and at the same it was good as well for resolving many other things.

Inter linking of rivers can solve certain aspects of the larger issue. Water is going to be Uno Security killer of the future. It can destroy us within, if we don't plan ahead.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 04 Jan 2012 11:27

I am bit confused. Or are the two dailies kind of giving it a small spin.
Today's head lines in Mathrubhumi.
http://epaper.mathrubhumi.com/epapersto ... 2012-.aspx (പുതിയ അണക്കെട്ടിന് കളമൊരുങ്ങുന്നു. ജല നിരപ്പ് 120 അടി ആക്കില്ല). 'All set for a new Dam. The water level would not be set with 120 feet mark'.
Today's headlines in 'The Hindu'
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true . 'Mullaperiyar, Idukki dams safe, experts tell panel'

So what is the truth?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Jan 2012 20:43

All that the Hindu report is saying is that there is no new damage to the dam from the recent small quakes, which is believable of course. But that is not the central issue, no ?

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 04 Jan 2012 20:48

Bade wrote:All that the Hindu report is saying is that there is no new damage to the dam from the recent small quakes, which is believable of course. But that is not the central issue, no ?

From what I could understand from the Hindu report was that Kerala's plea to reduce the water level to 120 ft was chucked out. And the Hindu report did not have any words which meant there is some progress in the plan for a new dam (പുതിയ ഡാമിനു കളമൊരുങ്ങൽ).

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Jan 2012 20:53

Yes, even the mathrubhoomi and manorama Inglees edition had reports on the new dam. Hindu has not covered it. Who knows what is the real truth.

I do not see technically why TN should have any issue with another dam, if the old one remains under their lease term for 999 years or till it breaks. But I suspect, what the center will do is play along with the new dam proposal to give KL some sop, and then deny on environmental grounds. Usual politics and nothing to do with constitution and legalism, which are mere tools to do more politics. So what is new.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Jan 2012 21:02

Kerala ready for joint control of new dam: Chandy

Posted on: 04 Jan 2012

Thiruvananthapuram:Kerala on Wednesday said it is ready for joint control with Tamil Nadu and the Centre, if a new dam is built in place of the 116-year-old Mullaperiyar reservoir, over which the two states are locked in a dispute. Speaking to reporters after a cabinet meeting here, Chief Minister Oommen Chandy said the cabinet put forward this proposal after taking stock of the deliberations at the two day meeting of the Supreme Court-appointed Empowered Committee on the issue. 'The empowered committee asked us to give our suggestions by Friday. This is the proposal we are going to make to the panel', Chandy said.

He said the fact that the panel, headed by former Chief Justice of India A S Anand 'seriously considered' Kerala's demand for a new dam vindicated the state's case to build a new dam. 'This is the first time the Committee discussed seriously
the proposal for a new dam. So far its focus was on whether the existing dam is safe or not, based on arguments of the two
states', he said.

Chandy said Kerala was even prepared to enact a law to to ensure continuous water supply to Tamil Nadu if a new dam is
built and said that state need not harbour any fears in this regard 'Tamil Nadu need not have any fears on continuing to get
water even after a new dam is built. The Kerala government is even ready to enact legislation to ensure continuous water supply,' he said. On the committee's rejection of Kerala's plea to lower the dam water level to 120 feet from 136 feet, he said Kerala had suggested the step only as a temporary measure till a new dam was built.

http://www.mathrubhumi.com/english/story.php?id=118629

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Jan 2012 21:12

Chief Minister Oommen Chandy on Wednesday said that the joint control of the proposed new dam at Mullaperiyar was fully acceptable to the Kerala Government.

Talking to the media after a meeting of the Cabinet, the Chief Minister said that the Kerala, Tamil Nadu and the Centre could jointly control the dam. The government had an open mind regarding the details. A similar arrangement was working successfully in case of Siruvani dam (supplying water to Coimbatore).

Mr. Chandy said that Kerala’s stand in favour of the new dam was getting acceptance. For the first time, the proposal had come for active consideration before the Empowered Committee appointed by the Supreme Court. This was the result of united stand taken by the State in favour of giving water to Tamil Nadu. It was willing for any sacrifice to maintain better relations with Tamil Nadu.

He said that Kerala was willing to provide the same quantity of water which Tamil Nadu is getting now from the Mullaperiyar dam. The Assembly had already passed a resolution on this and the State was willing to give an undertaking on that before the Supreme Court or other bodies. He did not answer a question whether Kerala had promised more water to Tamil Nadu in the statement filed before the empowered committee.

(Kerala has promised about ten per cent more water to Tamil Nadu according to reports from Delhi.)

He said that a new agreement could be discussed with Tamil Nadu regarding the new dam. However, it would not become a dispute. If there is any disagreement, that could be decided by the Supreme Court.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/ker ... 774266.ece

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 05 Jan 2012 05:53

The question isn't if Kerala is ready for Joint control. The question is if TN is ready for Joint control.

If Kerala is not certain TN is ready for that they should not unilaterally announce. Almost guarantee they will not get it.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 05 Jan 2012 07:58

All of that is good, but if I read the news correctly KL was given time till this Friday to respond to questions on ownership. If TN has refused to talk on this matter for so long, there is no hope to meet with TN to make a joint declaration, no ?

vina · Post by **vina** » 05 Jan 2012 09:26

All of that is good, but if I read the news correctly KL was given time till this Friday to respond to questions on ownership. If TN has refused to talk on this matter for so long, there is no hope to meet with TN to make a joint declaration, no ?

Bade Mian. All the supreme court asked was responses from the respective states their views on control , IF (now just hypothetical) a new dam comes up.

Now , the Kerala folks and media spun it as a "step towards a new dam"

, while downplaying the REAL set back they have seen to their case in the empowered committee which is all set to declare the fears of kerala as highly exaggerated and nay even motivated and engineered, and a rejection of kerala's plea of lowering the water level to 120 ft and hence explicitly throwing out of the window Kerala's contention that that the current storage is "unsafe".

Kerala can spin all it wants, but the "35 lakh people getting washed away " and "New Dam, New Dam, Damn it, New Dam" slogans are going to run on the reefs at the supreme court. Oh, you will get assured safety all right (either they are okay with the strengthening measures , or they will okay other technical measures like new tunnel and lower permanent storage), but I doubt you will EVER get the "new agreement" that Kerala is looking for. Problem is that once the "safety bogey" is put to rest, you have no more levers to pull and get the kerala population to fall in line like lemmings to the politoco mechanizations.

For eg, why will any Mallu give a F*ck when a politico says we need to spend $x billion and build a new dam which will give water to TN and nothing at all to Kerala (not even electricity) to gain "control". Sorry, the avg mallu wont even pause from taking his sip of Kallu and drag of beedi and infact once done so will spit. It is only fear mongering that can get people worked up. So once that is put to rest, this will die down.

So , dont worry, have curry.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 05 Jan 2012 09:53

Moral of the story is never ever cede control of anything on long leases, even if it means your blood will have to be shed. Giving away water is not the issue, but only a fool will part with control and on that count both Menon and Varma fell short by all measures.

Maybe, the Karna story has not seeped in to the SDRE psyche after all these years. A real pity.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 05 Jan 2012 11:24

vina wrote:For eg, why will any Mallu give a F*ck when a politico says we need to spend $x billion and build a new dam which will give water to TN and nothing at all to Kerala (not even electricity) to gain "control". Sorry, the avg mallu wont even pause from taking his sip of Kallu {Brandy here.. please } and ..... It is only fear mongering that can get people worked up. So once that is put to rest, this will die down.

Point taken. The people are only getting worked up because of the fear factor in it. Have been seeing lots of photo shopped images on what Kerala would be if the dam bursts. But if Kerala insists that it would build a new dam, at its own cost and then happly agree to for a tri-party ownership (Kerala, TN and Central. Govt to boot) many people would start questioning the rationale behind it. Why should Kerala put in money in building some thing in which it has no major stake?

I feel in this case only thing to prove would be that the dam is unsafe, in very clear cut measurable terms. Or else people would soon think that the new dam is a way to siphon off funds (after all the maximum swindling of funds happen, when new structures are built from the scratch).

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 05 Jan 2012 11:45

The EC report was foreseen. Thatte and Mehta came, and started giving instructions to TN officials on the 'work to be done'. They did nothing to evaluate the quake damage. It was Thatte who made the recommendations for the 'pancake and grease paint' treatment for strengthening the dam, so it has become a prestige issue for him. I would be darn surprised if he changes his opinion even after the dam is washed away. He will find some excuse to cover his folly.

Vina, the "new tunnel and store water in TN" proposal is perfectly acceptable to GoKL. The problem is, they are not, and don't want to look like MORONS, because there is no facility in TN to store the water. IF GoTN proposes it, I can bet that GoKL will gladly accept it. GoKL will become the laughing stock if they propose it.

Given the yumBeeYea credentials and the spellbinding chankian intellect you have, my SDRE brain says that is what EXACTLY you have in mind. Make GoKL look like morons. Thanks, but no thanks.

I do not agree to the current proposal made by Oommen Chandy. TN can not have the cake and eat it too. I am fine with TN taking all water if TN spends the money. You can't take my tax money, build a dam, and let TN take all the water (and laugh at me). No. We are not THAT stoopid.

BTW, Vaikol said that P. J. Joseph said he will build roads with the stones from Mullaperiyar. That guy Vaikol is as a menace to humanity as his chaddi buddy V Pirapaharan (RIH). Joseph was talking about the problems and solutions of dismantling the old dam AFTER THE NEW DAM IS BUILT!!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Jan 2012 12:15

Dileep wrote:
BTW, Vaikol said that P. J. Joseph said he will build roads with the stones from Mullaperiyar. That guy Vaikol is as a menace to humanity as his chaddi buddy V Pirapaharan (RIH). Joseph was talking about the problems and solutions of dismantling the old dam AFTER THE NEW DAM IS BUILT!!

The said Politcian was thought he was the Heir apparent to Dr. Artiste till 1998 or so, till Dr artiste asked him to buzz off and all inheritances are for family. In 2011 assembly elections he was proved to be a non entity in neither faction. He is a desperate man making a desperate last stand with all his money. No TN politician will openly oppose him but they know given 1 month he will run out funds and disappear into oblivion. His only hope is poor monsoons and somehow magically water does not come to TN for 2 years. Otherwise he is kaput and is using rabble rousing tactics hoping it will work.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 05 Jan 2012 22:44

What stops the Central Govt from taking over the ownership of this dam and the leased area. All responsibilities of proper and fair use then lies with it. States could still bicker, but it would look more fairer as relatively neutral party, politics aside.

Since the lease was given to the Madras Presidency, isn't the center a party to the inheritance. In special cases like this one, that would be the optimal approach for any resolution in the long term.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 06 Jan 2012 00:07

If Mullaiperiyar is a interstate river o river valley then Art.262 could be invoked. But it is not.
Water is a state Subject (Sl no 17 in State list 7th Schedule) unless it is interstate.

"17. Water, that is to say, water supplies, irrigation and canals, drainage
and embankments, water storage and water power subject to the provisions
of entry 56 of List I."

Lease is nothing . KL has right to abrogate it.
Validity of lease has been explained by SC, but say nothing about ownership.

I think ownership was not the issue beofre SC. It is mainly safety as formulated in SC judgement. Question abt Ownership rights before Sc would take the fight to a different plane. I think it is not KL's intention to deny use of waters to TN which it can not use productively and would go waste.

I also think that conduct of the Technical sub committee members of Empowered Committee failed to infuse confidence in parties. SC should appoint new members.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 06 Jan 2012 11:53

KL had expressed no-confidence on Thatte (not sure about Mehta, but he seems to be a silent spectator). SC had forced his membership, not sure why. That no-confidence is vindicated by his behaviour during the recent visit. His mandate was to inspect for damages caused by the recent quakes. If he had any sense of the immense responsibility he had on his shoulders, he would have kept his trap shut, and made whatever report he wanted, (like the quakes had actually made the rocks settle down and made the dam stronger)

Would he do that? Nope!! He started giving a number of instructions to TN officials on various things to be done in order to raise the water level to 155, including comments like "let me know who from KL objects to this". He also asks the chief engineer of KL to "shut up". This clearly shows where he stands, what his class is, and his sense of being a neutral adjudicator.

No sah!! I am not going to trust him, and I don't think even Vina and Stan would ask me to.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 07 Jan 2012 20:54

No part of Mullaperiyar catchment is in TN: CWRDM Director

N. B. Narasimha Prasad, Director of the Centre for Water Resources Development and Management, Kozhikode, clarified on Saturday that the marking of certain parts of Mullaperiyar catchment as falling in Tamil Nadu in the Water Atlas of Kerala (1995) was an error.

Mr. Prasad told The Hindu that the error had been corrected years ago and those concerned had been informed of the matter. It is a settled issue that it was a mistake.

He said that the Centre had since revised the atlas and it would be published once it gets the clearance of the Survey of India regarding State boundaries and related matters. The new atlas was being readied in the digital form.

The error had not initially come to the notice of the Centre. It realised the mistake only when Tamil Nadu made a claim based on that, Mr. Prasad said.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Jan 2012 05:29

So is this about the 2% of total catchment area claimed in Durai's (ex-MDK minister) article published by the HIndu and linked in pages above, in reply to Iyer's original article stating Periyar is not a inter-state river ?

But all this has no bearing on the status of the lease and its validity, isn't it, as argued by Stan and Vina. If KL can abrogate the lease term as you stated above, then why does it not choose that route, other than lack of balls as has been said before. Are there other legal reasons, or is it just politics and some understanding exists between the kangress in KL and center not to stoke the fire any more than is required for the time being.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Jan 2012 05:53

Kerala, Tamil Nadu take divergent stand on new Mullaperiyar dam

Kerala favours independent panel for water regulation, Tamil Nadu is against new dam itself

Kerala has maintained that it is agreeable to the constitution of an independent committee, with representatives of both Kerala and Tamil Nadu and the Union of India, for regulation of the waters of a new Mullaperiyar dam.

Kerala made this response to the Supreme Court-appointed Empowered Committee's January 2 oral directive to both States to indicate their stand on the question of constituting an “independent committee” for the purpose.

But Tamil Nadu rejected this proposal, arguing that the question of building a new dam, let alone regulation of its waters, would not arise at all, as the existing dam was safe.
Operation and maintenance

Kerala said the Empowered Committee had asked the two States: “Who would have the control of the new dam and be responsible for its operation and maintenance, i.e., the State of Tamil Nadu or the State of Kerala?”

Kerala said that in its written submission dated October 27, 2010 it had stated that the ownership, operation and maintenance of a new dam should vest with it. But the regulation of waters from a new dam would be handled by a joint committee of engineers of both the States as was being done in the Parabmikulam Aliyar Project and the Sirvuani Drinking Water Scheme.
Prevailing practice

“The joint committee proposed is in consonance with the prevailing practice under the Parabmikulam Aliyar Project and the Siruvani Drinking Water Scheme. In the inter-State Parabmikulam Aliyar Project, the waters of the Chalakudy, Bharatapuzha and Periyar rivers are inter alia diverted from Kerala to Tamil Nadu. The works are constructed by both States. The regulation of waters is [done] by a Joint Water Regulation Board.”
Independent committee

In the case of the Siruvani scheme, “the waters of the Siruvani river are diverted from Kerala to Tamil Nadu. The Siruvani dam located in Kerala was constructed by the State by employing the funds of … Tamil Nadu. However, in response to the further question posed by this Empowered Committee on January 2, i.e., constitution of an independent committee for the regulation of waters of a new dam proposed, the State of Kerala submits that it is agreeable to the constitution of an independent committee — of which the representatives of both the States and the Union of India are made part.”

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 08 Jan 2012 10:33

Bade wrote:So is this about the 2% of total catchment area claimed in Durai's (ex-MDK minister) article published by the HIndu and linked in pages above, in reply to Iyer's original article stating Periyar is not a inter-state river ?

But all this has no bearing on the status of the lease and its validity, isn't it, as argued by Stan and Vina. If KL can abrogate the lease term as you stated above, then why does it not choose that route, other than lack of balls as has been said before. Are there other legal reasons, or is it just politics and some understanding exists between the kangress in KL and center not to stoke the fire any more than is required for the time being.

Regarding lease validity, as of now there is no question about it nor has it been raised since KL has accepted it in 1970.
Lease abrogation is a legal business and unless there are grounds to do so, such act would not stand scrutiny. KL can do it in two ways. One is violation of lease conditions. Second is by exercise of its legislative power. SO far KL has not raised violation of lease conditions, just the safety issues and unless that gets settled lease can not be annulled. TN apprehends ( in my opinion) that New Dam may no be covered under the lease and same terms and conditions would not be applied to it.
There is no point in claiming it to be an interstate river issue. That would give more firepower to KL and it can claim to exercise legislative power to throw out lease. Border closing and fighting strike interstate commerce are something that would find its own ways to get settled. But Politicians , esp current lot, do not have balls to discuss issues honestly and settle the mater amicably. In any case KL can't use water productively.

Since KL is in INC fold Mullaperiyar issue could be a counter to KKNPP protest which is ostensibly supported by TN state Govt. INC has nothing to loose in TN except its pants. But if Mullaperiyar gets settled in favour of KL INC would hold it for long time, methinks.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 08 Jan 2012 10:50

Another point of view

Communal angle in Mullaperiyar Dam controversy

The controversy surrounding Mullaperiyar Dam in the Kerala-Tamil Nadu border and the demand for building a new dam in place of the century old British built dam, especially during the Sabarimala season, is seen as a conspiracy by Christian/Jehadi groups to torpedo Sabarimala pilgrimage.

Right from the fifties, the church has been against the Sabarimala Temple and pilgrimage. They saw the ‘Ayyappa Cult’ as a threat to its conversion activities, as Hindus forgetting caste and creed flocked to Sabarimala in thousands. In the later fifties, Christians burnt the Sabarimala Temple. Later, as lakhs began flocking to the Temple, they raked the ‘Nilakkel issue’ by planting a cross at ‘Ayyappa’s Poonkavanam (Garden).’ Thanks to the RSS-VHP massive agitation, the cross was removed and the Nilakkel Shiva Temple renovated.
As crores from all over the world forgetting religion, colour, race, creed heaped into Sabarimala, Christian-inspired false propaganda that a Kannada film actress (Christian convert) entered the Sanctum Sanctorum and that the ‘Makaravilakku’ is man-made, went the rounds.
Unmindful of this and facing all hardships crores from all over the world have started coming to Sabarimala, this season also.

An average of 3 to 3.5 crore of pilgrims visit Sabarimala, during the November-January season. 40 per cent of these come from Tamil Nadu. The Ayyappa cult has arrested the Christian conversion activities in Tamil Nadu. Forgetting caste differences, Hindus have become one. Much before the season, Christian leaflets denouncing Ayyappa and Makaravilakku were distributed. At many places, the leaflet distributers were physically attacked by Ayyappas.

Almost 50 per cent of Tamil Nadu pilgrims come to Sabarimala via Kumily route, the entry point on the Kerala-Tamil Nadu border and in the midst of the Mullaperiyar Dam controversy.

The anti-new Dam groups in Tamil Nadu and pro-new Dam groups in Kerala consist of atheists like Vaiko (TN) and Christian groups (Kerala). For almost a week now, Sabarimala pilgrims and their vehicles are being attacked on both sides of the border. Their tyres are torn, glasses broken and young, old and women attacked. There has been steady decline of pilgrims through Kumily and at Sabarimala, Fearing attacks Tamil Nadu Ayyappas are completing pilgrimage at Ayyappa Temples there.

There are strong indications to believe that just like the church-inspired agitation against Kudamkulam Nuclear Power plant, Mullaperiyar agitation during Sabarimala season is also a Christian plot to torpedo the Ayyppa Cult in Tamil Nadu and accelerate its conversion activities. As everyone knows, Vaiko was financed by LTTE, who got their finances from church-controlled drug cartels. Also Prabhakaran during his last years embraced Christianity and there are strong reasons to believe that Vaiko’s godfathers are the church.

Sabarimala is also under Jehadi scanner. For several years now pilgrims coming from other states are stoned and attacked at Muslim pockets. Several wanted Jehadis are being regularly arrested from Sabarimala by national security agencies. Sabarimala is under RAF and NSG cover.

When this Dam controversy is pending for long, raking it up during Sabarimala season, is nothing but a Christian ploy to torpedo Sabarimala and accelerate conversion!

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Jan 2012 11:05

^^^ I seriously doubt there is any religious angle at all in this dam row. That article is a load of BS. CT theories are easy to manufacture, just as much as the Kangress politics referred to two posts above including by me, though it is more believable. If you honestly ask me even Kerala Hindus who have been going to sabarimala for years, privately do confide that they do not like the current atmosphere in temples all over Kerala and that includes even Guruvayur. Of course the temple authorities are happy with increased darshan and funds at all temples, but locals are less than thrilled to see a crowd anytime of the day or year one visits the local temples.

Now one could extend this anecdotal data collected at grass-roots and go on to write an article about how KL hindus are responsible for the dam row as they do not want TN hindus to visit Sabarimala.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 09 Jan 2012 08:21

New Mullaperiyar dam can store more water

The new dam proposed by Kerala on Mullaperiyar is slightly higher than the old dam and is capable of storing more water.

The altitude at the rock level of the new dam will be 820.53 metres above the sea level. The old dam is also built on rock of about the same level. The new dam will have height of 160 feet from the bed level whereas the height of the existing dam is 158 feet (excluding parapet wall).

The maximum water level fixed for the new dam is 155 feet from the bed level which is the same as that for the old dam. The full reservoir level (FRL) of the new dam is fixed at 136 feet. The full reservoir level of old dam was 152 feet before it was lowered to 136 feet over safety considerations.

The storage capacity of the new dam will be 11.353 thousand million cubic feet (TMCft) at full reservoir level which is 143 million cubic feet more than the storage of the old dam at water level of 136 feet. The yield from the reservoir during the course of the year is estimated to be 20.5 TMCft (with 75 per cent dependability). This is about 15 per cent more than the water being drawn by Tamil Nadu at present and five per cent of it is proposed to be used for summer flows down the river to Idukki. The balance is proposed to be allocated to Tamil Nadu.

The maximum reservoir level is set much higher than the FRL considering projections of the probable maximum flood by Delhi IIT and limitations in releasing water through the spillways. (The difference between FRL and MRL of reservoirs like Idukki is much lower.) The discharge through the spillways may have to be limited to 1.22 lakh cusecs because the banks of the river downstream are populated.

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Jan 2012 08:35

Dileep wrote:New Mullaperiyar dam can store more water

Indeed! Selective reading isn't it ? What about the MISSING part of the article, you DIDN'T post ?

The maximum reservoir level is set much higher than the FRL considering projections of the probable maximum flood by Delhi IIT and limitations in releasing water through the spillways. (The difference between FRL and MRL of reservoirs like Idukki is much lower.) The discharge through the spillways may have to be limited to 1.22 lakh cusecs because the banks of the river downstream are populated. (.. Err. Idukki has a much smaller FRL and MRL, while this is fixed to 136 ft only. Oh, why 136 ft ? What is the sanctitity of it . Surely, the Kerala govt is not saying that the river down stream of Idukki is unpopulated ? or less populated than the Mullaperiyar to Idukki stretch? :rotfl . What sort of half a$$ed rubbish is this. Clearly this is a design drawn up to so political agenda, rather than any sane engineering principle , designing dams on the fly and make up design as we go. Well, new discipline in civil engg I suppose.)

If Tamil Nadu agrees to construction of new dam, differences could still arise over the FRL level (they will object to the dam itself, this is so outrageous in any case, the dam has Max level of 160 ft, but somehow you will store water only until 136 ft?WTF). As Tamil Nadu does not accept the projections of the probable maximum flood by Delhi IIT, it may claim that the FRL could be raised to store more water. Already, it has demanded that the State should get more water from Mullaperiyar.

A notable aspect of the design is that Kerala has fixed the maximum water level at such a level that considerable portion of the Periyar Tiger Reserve would be submerged in the event of a flood (Totally unacceptable. The periyar reserve and ecosystem is a jewel that is eminently worth preserving). The Kerala politicos can go f*ck themselves. Between the wildlife there and the animal on two legs, my sympathies are with the former . Vegetation and ecosystems had developed in those areas following lowering of the reservoir level of the existing dam in 1979. Kerala had consistently taken the stand that these areas could not be submerged again in view of the enactment of Forest (Conservation) Act in 1980. Now, its own design permits flooding of the areas. (indeed. Consistency after all is the virtue of an ass. Kerala politicos needn't be consistent. So here we have New Dam, New Dam, Damn it, New Dam, clearly designed around a randomly skewed political agenda, pushed around as the ONLY solution. Small matter for any mallu to ask, I spend Rs xxx crores and get what , some dubious assuaging of a scare mongered safety. WTF?)

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 09 Jan 2012 09:26

Thanks to Gus, I got my copy of the Tughlaq edition where MP is discussed. Here are some anecdotes:

1) When efforts were being made by TN to strengthen the structure of the baby dam, Kerala department of forests put a string of cases against officers from the TN side as well as contractors implementing the project. When this became a TN-Kerala issue, Kerala used the sub-judice nature of the case to ensure that the baby dam could not be strengthened. A circular argument if there was ever one. This was the immediate reason why TN went to Supreme Court in 2006 even though the unilateral act in the Kerala Assembly is often cited as the main reason.
2) The Idukki project was completed in 1975 with the hope that 780 MW of power will be generated. When only 200 MW was generated in the first few years, the Kerala govt started eyeing the reduction of MP water level as the only hope for more power from Idukki. Famous among these attempts is the October 16, 1979 report in Malayala Manorama of how MP is becoming dangerous due to earthquakes, the first instance of such a report.
3) CWC chairman KC Thomas made a statement on 23 November 1979 that MP structure is safe, but two days later he went to Trivandrum and makes a statement that the MP structure needs to be strengthened. Noone has understood the source for these contrary declarations by the CWC head that led to the stalemate.
4) 50% of the power generated in KKM is destined for Kerala, a certain fraction of the power generated in Neyveli too is marked for Kerala use. So it is a case of water for electricity vs. water for agriculture and drinking, the debate has rather been skewed as safety vs. agriculture and drinking, which is not true.
5) Kerala has not allowed any scientific study to investigate the hypothesis that higher frequency of earthquakes seen in the Idukki district is because of water storage in the Idukki project. The TN side believes this hypothesis could explain the surge in 2-3 seismic level earthquakes.

Overall, the Thuglaq pieces give the firm indication that TN Government authorities are not sucking their thumbs at logic. Here is a standard refrain from ministerial sources: "Kerala on its part went unilateral and passed an Act in the Assembly that over-ruled the SC judgment. In contrast, the course for inter-State disputes can only be handled by Sec. 131 of the Constitution. This is not only bizarre, but also contrary to how legal matters are handled, esp inter-State matters. Even more bizarre is the fact that a Constitution bench has to take 5 years (2006-2011) to figure out the illegality of this unilateral action.

What guarantee is there for us to trust the Kerala word that they will guarantee water for eternity? Tomorrow they will cite a different reason and put a temporary stop to water or even reduce the quantum of water flowing to TN saying drought/famine conditions on the Kerala side. In short, we will be left fiddling our thumbs just like how KA is doing despite the tribunal award. From being 100% in control of the water, we will be left to handle the shenanigans of Kerala and their domestic disputes. One party will up the ante and propagandize that the Kerala govt is being held captive to a word of honor without due regards to its electing constituency and then the govt will follow suit. We dont want any such nonsense, thanks already."

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 09 Jan 2012 10:28

Stan_Savljevic wrote:One party will up the ante and propagandize that the Kerala govt is being held captive to a word of honor without due regards to its electing constituency and then the govt will follow suit. We dont want any such nonsense, thanks already."

But is'nt this case with TN as well? Dont you think Amma would also have to think a lot before taking any decision. Because the opposition at TN would also bay for her blood, if "they" feel the deal did not go in favour of TN? Kerala, I am sure the politicians would use this as a tool for ever. Especially if any agreement is reached by this government. Propoganda machinery of the commies will work over time to achieve this.

PS: I read it in a book about the conflict in Sri Lanka (by an IPKF officer). He notes that in many cases the elected Sri Lankan government of the day could not do much, because the Sri Lankan opposition parties would use this as a political tool to throw them out of power. Each party had to prove that it was more "Sinhala" than the other.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 09 Jan 2012 10:48

vina wrote: Indeed! Selective reading isn't it ? What about the MISSING part of the article, you DIDN'T post ?

The FRL and MRL are designed based on the policy that the new dam should have the same level spec as the old dam. It is in fact a compromise to pre-empt a bigg objection by TN. If the dam design is made with MRL at 136 and FRL, say 142, TN is going to cry murder, and reject the proposal outright. The 160FRL is just to defuse that. The dam is not expected to be filled to that level.

Poor KL babus still think that Vaikol and co will see reason. Pity on them!!

The new dam will provide the same 136ft MRL. At this level, a small additional area below the current dam will be submerged, which is insignificant compared to the current area occupied by water. All these crying about ecosystem etc are just an argument of convenience, which is obviously locked up when demanding to raise the water.

The spillway capacity is also specified on the same way. It is designed to take care of the specified inflow. The statement about the population etc is an advance answer to the question "why didn't you design a spillway to accommodate the maximum flood?" which TN is going to ask anyway.

Bottom line is, the new dam design clearly is able to store and deliver the same amount of water as today. Rest is just arguments and counter arguments.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 09 Jan 2012 10:54

Again, there is already a treaty that is precisely how Kerala wants this treaty to be re-written. The Parambikulam-Aliyar treaty. What is the status you ask. Un-renewed for 25 years as Kerala makes new demands which means improvements and changes in design are now impossible. The treaty is essentially in limbo right now.

Impossible to see any TN government wanting to move to that model.

Also WRT Siruvani water, let keep in mind this was a water exchange. Kerala was given water from the upper Bhavani, in fact roughly 3 times as much as Coimbatore has received on average IIRC. Someone from Kovai might know the details better.

WRT Parambikulam the catchment is in TN hence water diversion agreement. I'm sure Dileep will disagree with this as well.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 09 Jan 2012 12:40

Sachin wrote:
But is'nt this case with TN as well?

Sure, thats the case with every government including GoI. Noone is holy here, which is precisely my point. Couching it as Kerala is only keen on safety and TN is only keen on Keralites' lack of safety is not true on the ground. It is a water for electricity vs. water for agriculture + drinking issue and then there are some people who talk of safety primarily as an afterthought to be charitable. There were no talks of safety till 1979, which is amusing for the silly fact that earthquakes which can and do occur infinitely in the past and will do so in the future.

But the other small fact here is that GoK has unilaterally passed an Act in the Assembly to contravene the SC judgment on a very specific issue. Not on some general matter in the debate. And the SC has appointed an Empowered Panel which is sitting on this matter for years and will do so for at least 1-2 years. So what happens to justice in the intervening period? Next time, we have an issue, what happens to status quo if status quo is unilaterally voidable by one party. As of now, GoTN cant alter status quo cos the dam structure is in Kerala and GoK cant do much but ask GoTN to reduce the water level because that will push things too far to be controlled. But lets say GoK has joint control, the equilibrium is pushed to Kerala's control completely. It will be the party in charge and heck, it will alter things as it suits them independent of other's perception of ground realities. There lies the rub to this matter.

TN will have no hold on this matter but to use chips on its side (which means illegal nonsense such as blockading trucks and sabre-rattling on electricity etc.) to let GoK see reason. Even the iron-clad SC judgment is not safe not because they are not per se safe, but because you can temporarily halt any judgment by appeals and counter-appeals whereas in the meanwhile it becomes a livelihood matter for some. There is absolutely nothing to compromise for TN, this is as much as I can see. As the status quo-ist party in this dispute, GoTN has good reason to not trust GoK on this matter. Even GoK should not trust GoTN on this matter 100%, it is only rational. Overnight the game has changed from rational-player cooperative non-zero sum game to an irrational-player non-cooperative zero sum game. So who is responsible for this eventuality? There are no one party culprits here. TN will stick to its position till kingdom come if it has any sensibility and Kerala will too, that is just the natural reaction. That is how things will proceed as much as I can predict. And this stalemate shall continue till something on the ground changes, as in an EP recommendation (oops!) that is binding (nice try!) and final (try even harder!) on both parties in part (duh!) as well as whole (ouch!), regime change on both sides that lets some reason into the debate (yawn!), or babajaan's unilateral and express fiat (like S-e-S or like agra peace talks!) to either (ooo!) or both parties (bla bla bla) to cut the zero summability of the positioning. I see none of the three in the short-term future, so we shall have status quo and noisiness.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 09 Jan 2012 20:43

Water for electricity argument goes only so far, as water is for 999 years whereas electricity is only for much lesser lifetime of the plant. So that is a fake argument to make.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 09 Jan 2012 21:22

I dont see why the aspirations of Kl are being problematized here. Even if it is for electricity, I do not see anything wrong in the growing aspirations of KL. I would imagine everyone in india has a right to better themselves. Afterall, TN's demand for waters of MP is not because they have a deep desire to grow brinjals for KL, but to generate prosperity for its own people. I dont see how any rational person expects KL to suspend their aspirations and forego use of a resource for a thousand years. nonsense it is.

Also in decreasing the water level at MP from level X to level Y, what is the effect on TN's agricultural production? Does agriculture in TN absorb all of level X, or is TN's objection to reduction based on its anticipation of future use. If it is later, then it is a matter of aspirations of TN vs the aspirations of KL. Who is to say one is more important than the other?

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 09 Jan 2012 21:33

shaardula wrote:I dont see why the aspirations of Kl are being problematized here. Even if it is for electricity, I do not see anything wrong in the growing aspirations of KL.

It is not a problem if it is posed in that way, and then it becomes an issue of KL's growing aspirations vs TN's entrenched aspirations (in some vague tit-for-tat). If a moral high ground is created with bullshit arguments such as "water for TN, safety for Kerala" when the real issue lies elsewhere, that is when it starts getting irritating. If someone couches an argument in such a language, if TN is willing to offer safety for Kerala by keeping the same lease agreement, where are these moral high-bastion peddlers? Like Dileep, for example.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 09 Jan 2012 22:10

Your aspirations end at the lease ownership line of your neighbor. At this point you are coveting what belongs to others.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 09 Jan 2012 22:27

Putting the legal issues aside (since it is the only leg on which all of TN's argument stands), the express reasons for the lease and the dam was to create an agriculture based economy for the drought struck region a hundred years ago. When economy of the region moves from agriculture to something else much more profitable down the road, the moral leg of the motivation of this re-direction indeed goes away, far into the future. Aspirations change all the time or even natural calamities can create irreversible havoc, unforeseen by man.

If the catchment area suddenly sees less of water due to man made effects or some natural events, the lease will stand except that there will be no water to draw. Rapid development of coastal Kerala will in effect accelerate that process, and TN cannot do anything about it. Argument will be one's prosperity vs the other.