Indian Education System

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gakakkad
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

@ Bade and other guru's .. of late there has been a lot of news about IITs tying up with various amreeki madarssas ..how exactly are such tie ups supposed to work ? does it go beyond annual chai biskoot and some exchange programs ? any joint research funding mechanisms ?
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Jarita »

I recently attended a few classes of my school in India just to see what was happening. I got permission from the principal.
Let me tell you, even in the so call best of schools in India education is an IQ and creativity reducing process. Many teachers are teachers not because they love it but just like everything else in India, it is a good profession for women.
Many teachers continue to be subtle bullies. They love students who conform and students who don't are damaged by them psychologically (i am talking about good schools here) unless their parents can pay for heavy tuiutions. And god forbid if the child demonstrates that he/she (I am talking about a girls school here)that they are bored to bits. This is the problem child. I was quite blunt with the principal. They did not like what I had to say but I will keep saying it. They have to select teachers who love the fact that they are improving childrens lives. They must improve student teacher ratios if possible. Teachers have to be responsible for the overall makeup of the child and not just learning from rote.
Sorry about this, if it is jarring. I went through the same during my school years. I hated the top school my parents sent me to. With the exception of science and literature (where we had some creative teachers), I was bored as hell and my poor parents were constantly called for parent teacher meetings to discuss the problem child and trouble maker. I was fortunate to change schools and ended up with a class teacher who was also my maths teacher who imbued the love of the subject in me. Thanks to her I fell in love with maths and it's permutations and combinations. Creativity was not frowned upon but encouraged. I was lucky and everything I accomplished after that was because of this break. Life, skills are more colorful.
It is really enraging to see parents dole out 1000's of rupees of month (many middle class) for this crap education and subtle bullying. This is supposed to be the creme de la creme of India's intellect that then is forced into test based exams to enter IIT and engineering colleges. Woe to creativity, woe to true intelligence. What a grind!
We keep talking about mass education but a nation has to preserve and optimize it's intelligence as well. The small population that has potential cannot be put through an intelligence destroying process. We have to address both sides of the spectrum - mass and the intelligent elite (they have to be nourished to give us our scientists, our social thinkers, our innovators, our visionaries).
Our dialog cannot just be constrained to so many schools, so many colleges. We have to expand it to include what happens to those born with high potential. Where are we losing them. Fact is that India has a paucity of social thinkers since only mechanistic thinking is encouraged (Think IIT vs. political science). That is a huge loss because that vacuum will then be filled by duffers and nefarious foreign elements.
gakakkad
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

^^^ true that... teachers in India are teachers because they are good for nothing.,.. especially true in non-IIT engineering colleges ..(aam govt or pvt colleges) and most medical schools... who would join faculty positions in medical or engineering colleges if they were half capable of doing pvt practice or getting job in MNC...onlee complete rejects join faculty positions most of the time. They have low self esteem,hence the bullying culture........
csaurabh
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

gakakkad wrote:^^^ true that... teachers in India are teachers because they are good for nothing.,.. especially true in non-IIT engineering colleges ..(aam govt or pvt colleges) and most medical schools... who would join faculty positions in medical or engineering colleges if they were half capable of doing pvt practice or getting job in MNC...onlee complete rejects join faculty positions most of the time. They have low self esteem,hence the bullying culture........
There is a concerted attempt to change this these days, especially in South India. They are sending their young faculties for 're training' ( under the guise of pursuing phd or postdocs ) at good Central govt institutions ( eg. IITs ). I interact with one such chap from Coimbatore Inst. Tech.. is a smart chap but his fundamentals are messed up because no one bothered to teach him properly. Then they become faculties and can't teach so the mess continues on. But it can be corrected.

Actually this has been going on for some time now. Bangalore universities are already better than IITs now ( in IT, not engineering. But then most people go on to do IT anyway. ). Hopefully things will change in other parts of the country too. Then IITs can focus on being research institutes rather than an assembly line that that produces 'graduates' with 'jobs'.

There are some good signs coming in that direction. There is more emphasis now on entrepreneurship in IITs, more hands on stuff, more postgraduate students and hopefully things will improve. We still have a long long way to go though. Maybe I will be writing an article on this later ( not for BRF )

But who will fix primary education? School teachers sux so badly. Even the good ones you'll find only in math/science subjects. The rest are all hopeless. I learned Hindi by watching Discovery channel in Hindi and Ramayana Mahabharat . And English by reading newspapers, novels and comics. Don't think my teachers taught anything there. History = mugging things ( including rubbish like Aryan invasion and overglorification of Islamics, Gandhi ). Geography = mugging things ( like West Bengal produces so many tons of Jute ). Most of our higher education in the 'Arts' subjects consists of similar mugging things + colonial BS like sociology, etc. Who would ever want to go for such things?
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Sachin »

csaurabh wrote:Most of our higher education in the 'Arts' subjects consists of similar mugging things + colonial BS like sociology, etc. Who would ever want to go for such things?
The most pathetic subject ever taught to me was "Civics". Not that I hate that concept, or feel it is not required. But the contents of that syllabus would literally fly over every body's head :). We are asked to mug up how the President of India gets selected (electoral college & what not), but have no clue on how our own town municipal council gets elected. I am an Arts graduate, and we had British History as one of our option. And I am talking about the British History of Charles I, James I kind (12xx AD). What is that point in teaching that to an Indian youngster who may have not even seen Britain once in his life?

Education (especially) the school level, I feel in India should go for a change. Or else we would still ensure that Lord Macualay's dreams of producing "clerks" would continue. Kerala, around 15 years back had launched a DPEP based educational system. This system put good focus on "Do it & learn" concepts along with very basic things like visits to community establishments (like hospitals, fire stations etc.). It was piloted in a few schools - mainly government run. How ever after a heavy propaganda (against it) parents felt that these practical oriented kids would lose out on competition with the "mugging experts" who comes out from other schools.

I remember reading that Germany has a unique system of education, which kinds of brings out good potential in each and every kid. Don't know if it is true, and it can be adapted here.
deejay
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by deejay »

In line with the above posts and coincidentally, I received on WhatsApp the following about the different boards involved in Indian School Education and their merits etc:
Which board to choose from SSC, CBSE, ICSE and IB ?

Choosing the board most suitable for your child can be a harrowing experience.Many parents are confused with which board to choose. There are namely four common boards like the CBSE (Central Board of Secondary Education),ICSE (Indian Certificate is Secondary Education), IB (International Baccalaureate)and the SSC (State Boards).

A common misconception is that CBSE and ICSE are both education boards similar to SSC boards of state government. CBSE is an education board but ICSE is the certificate offered after completion of the course and it is not a board. Still ICSE board is commonly used to mention this course.

Secondary School Certificate, commonly known as SSC, is a public examination taken by students in Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat, Andhra Pradesh and Goa in India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan , after successfully completing at least ten years of schooling. It is followed by Higher Secondary (School) Certificate (HSC). SSC is an equivalent to GCSE in the England.

State Boards are comparatively limited in the content and subjects as compared to other boards.The syllabus is easier and hence less stressful to the students.These schools being state centric are excellent for parents planning to stay in the same state for life. The State language is compulsory. As the concepts are generally lagging the kids have to be given external coaching, if planning for IIT, CAT and other competitive exams. These schools are great for kids who are focused on extracurricular activities like sports etc.

CBSE
Central Board of Secondary Education: Know as the CBSE board. It prepares the syllabus for students up to Class 12. The curriculum is set by National Council of Educational Research and Training (NCERT). The board conducts India's two nation-wide board examinations: the All India Secondary School Examination for Class 10 and the All India Senior School Certificate Examination for Class 12.

Many schools are affiliated to CBSE syllabus.All major cities have CBSE schools, hence easy to move around in the country. The curriculum is very good when it comes to general knowledge and general subjects. It allows the kids to experience subjects without going deep into them thus helping them to choose the focus after Xth. This board prepares kids for competitive exams like the IIT, CAT, IIM and all entrance exams which are held at national level and it gives better chances for appearing for Armed Forces Exams, NDA, IAS, IFS, IPS.etc. The schools also focus a lot on extracurricular activities Most of which are compulsory thus assuring an overall growth of the child. One disadvantage is the length of the syllabus. It has vast syllabus

ICSE
The ICSE is short form of Indian Certificate for Secondary Education. It was established by the University of Cambridge Local Examinations Syndicate. The council conducts an all India exam for Class 10 called ICSE(Indian Certificate for Secondary Education) and for class 12 called the Indian School Certificate (ISC).

The ICSE board follows the basics strengthening syllabus. all the introduction is repeated and then quadratic equations are handled. Even questions are based on the basics. This makes the basics of the topic very strong. This helps the student a lot of confidence when higher studies are involved. As his basics are very strong, half the job is done. There is lot of focus on language and literature. So good for kids wanting to make a career which involves writing, reading, talking, debating, arguing, surveying, historians, geologist etc. This curriculum is very good when it comes to general knowledge and general subjects . However it is unnecessarily vast.

This board is also good for competitive exams like IIT, IIM, CAT, All India entrance exams, but needs extra time and coaching. Even Armed forces exams can be appeared after this board. ICSE syllabus is particularly important for students who prefer higher education abroad. Exams like GRE, TOEFLand GMAT have a lot of verbal ability testing. Its also excellent for those who are migrating from abroad as the curriculum is close to international board. One important distinguishing feature in ICSE syllabus is the importance given to projects. Projects are very important and they form the basis of marking scheme in the performance of the student. This makes the student extremely active and it improves his thinking ability.

IB Board
This board is excellent for kids whose parents are globe trotters as it enables kids to get admission into any IB school across the world. There are very few students in each batch, hence ensures quality focus on each child. The syllabus is taught in most interesting and interactive way with the best of equipments. The overall atmosphere in the school is international, with kids taking teachers as their equals. However these schools can be extremely expensive!

What we have attempted here is to give an non biased analysis of each schools. However each board has its own merits and demerits. The choice is up to you to decide which syllabus is most suited for your child.
Posting it here, as for last five years I have been involved in the Indian School Education segment and do not have any major disagreement with the above.
gakakkad
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

>>There is a concerted attempt to change this these days, especially in South India. They are sending their young faculties for 're training' ( under the guise of pursuing phd or postdocs ) at good Central govt institutions ( eg. IITs ).

but the good institutes would have a limited training capacity ..IMHO the situation is hopeless in short and medium term unless we import faculty and sponsor bright India kids to study abroad with a returning to India and working in teaching institute conditionality...

in medical MCI rules need to be amended to to let foreign trained faculty teach in India... They can practice in India but can't teach..that is weird..
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Vayutuvan »

Medicos had something like that right? J1 visas where they have to come back and serve for two years. Is it only for fullbright Guggenheim etc.? What about Rhodes scholars?
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

gakakkad I will not make value judgements. But the truth is that most of the Indians who go abroad have no desire to return. Most of my IIT batch are good examples.
gakakkad
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

matrimc wrote:Medicos had something like that right? J1 visas where they have to come back and serve for two years. Is it only for fullbright Guggenheim etc.? What about Rhodes scholars?

its 7 years actually.. but there is a way to work around ..and most people manage to not return... rhodes and guggenheim is not applicable for medicine...the point I want to make is that I can practice in India , but can't hold a teaching post in any Indian medical school as per the present law because I have a massa residency in internal medicine...even though I am an MBBS from India ..and massa residency is equivalent to Indian residency for practicing ...and I was able to register my foreign qualification in MCI and state council effortlessly .but still can't teach...interestingly one of the former board members of mci is also a massa trained physician.. he is in the same cards program I am enrolled in ..and yet in those days he was able to hold a faculty position in PGI chandigarh..(maybe because we had less than 50 cardiologists in mid 80s)...

forget me a DNB (which is a post graduate qualification awarded by national board of examination , it is equivalent to MD/MS awarded by MCI) can't teach in MCI affiliated colleges and MCI affiliated degree holders can't teach in national board affiliated colleges...eg Gangaram and AIIMS are prestigious delhi based hospitals with supposedly very high training standards...Gangaram is affiliated to national board that awards DNB..and AIIMS is the usual MCI affiliated college...but graduates from gangaram cannot teach in AIIMS and vice versa...since gangaram is private they have non DNB (MD/MS/MCH/DM) consultants who treat patients ..but they cannot be officially used as faculty in nat board inspections...
gakakkad
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

>>gakakkad I will not make value judgements. But the truth is that most of the Indians who go abroad have no desire to return. Most of my IIT batch are good examples.

i am aware of it...

when I finish my cards fellowship 2 years from now , and decide to r21 , i can only practice in private or corporate hospitals (who would pay me through there nose because I am massa trained)... I can't get a government job as a cardiologist..( i took a 7 month sabbatical to take care of some family situations in India.. and some ahmedabad based hospitals already started approaching me through my friends who know me ..they told me that having me would greatly boost there marketing capability in medical tourism business ...a US board certification has immense brand value...i told em that i am on a temporary visit ...and I am still more than 2 years away from being a cardiologist...
it is not a problem for most docs who r2i as they intend to work for chor-porate setup only , where they are highly sought after and extremely well paid...one of my seniors r2ied for family reasons... he had expertise in pediatric interventional cardiology and electrophysiology...an NCR based hospital is paying him an astronomical sum ..2.5 times that of his india trained colleagues..
but all this is no good for India as whole...it would do the government hospitals some good if they utilize there expertise ... if they are allowed to do pro-bono teaching ,research and patient care in government setup , it ll improve things a good deal...
csaurabh
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

gakakkad wrote:
matrimc wrote:Medicos had something like that right? J1 visas where they have to come back and serve for two years. Is it only for fullbright Guggenheim etc.? What about Rhodes scholars?

its 7 years actually.. but there is a way to work around ..and most people manage to not return... rhodes and guggenheim is not applicable for medicine...the point I want to make is that I can practice in India , but can't hold a teaching post in any Indian medical school as per the present law because I have a massa residency in internal medicine...even though I am an MBBS from India ..and massa residency is equivalent to Indian residency for practicing ...and I was able to register my foreign qualification in MCI and state council effortlessly .but still can't teach...interestingly one of the former board members of mci is also a massa trained physician.. he is in the same cards program I am enrolled in ..and yet in those days he was able to hold a faculty position in PGI chandigarh..(maybe because we had less than 50 cardiologists in mid 80s)...

forget me a DNB (which is a post graduate qualification awarded by national board of examination , it is equivalent to MD/MS awarded by MCI) can't teach in MCI affiliated colleges and MCI affiliated degree holders can't teach in national board affiliated colleges...eg Gangaram and AIIMS are prestigious delhi based hospitals with supposedly very high training standards...Gangaram is affiliated to national board that awards DNB..and AIIMS is the usual MCI affiliated college...but graduates from gangaram cannot teach in AIIMS and vice versa...since gangaram is private they have non DNB (MD/MS/MCH/DM) consultants who treat patients ..but they cannot be officially used as faculty in nat board inspections...
This sounds like a gigantic mess..
Maybe you can petition the Modi govt. ( through private or public means ) to change the situation?
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by SaiK »

gakakkad
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Re: Indian Education System

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you beat me to posting this.. seriously it is policies like these that have made India a messy country...effectively blocking nri kids out of an Indian education..as it is no foreign student aspires to be in IIT... Except nris ...and we block the NRIs ... IIMs had the epiphany to increase foreign involvement ...

MIT,Stanford,caltech etc would have been nowhere near where they are , had it not been for immigrants... half the faculty is in these is foreign born..

when would we get rid of this sarkari mentality? we need private research universities... but that in Indian context means donation quota colleges..
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

>>This sounds like a gigantic mess..
Maybe you can petition the Modi govt. ( through private or public means ) to change the situation?


don't see it happening easily. .A large proportion of the stakeholders are the current faculty ..and they ll oppose any reforms tooth and nail .. reforms have been tried at various points in the past.. they tried changing the examination system a couple of years ago and faculties unionized against it...the argument the faculties have are mainly ad hominem .Problem is that they have immense inferiority complex at there own inadequacy .. that is why we need honorary and visiting faculties ... because we can't realistically expect to get decent permanent ones.
MCI/NAT.Board relation is as bitter as israel palesting..
csaurabh
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

gakakkad wrote: don't see it happening easily. .A large proportion of the stakeholders are the current faculty ..and they ll oppose any reforms tooth and nail .. reforms have been tried at various points in the past.. they tried changing the examination system a couple of years ago and faculties unionized against it...the argument the faculties have are mainly ad hominem .Problem is that they have immense inferiority complex at there own inadequacy .. that is why we need honorary and visiting faculties ... because we can't realistically expect to get decent permanent ones.
MCI/NAT.Board relation is as bitter as israel palesting..
I think there are some attempts being made now

http://www.newindianexpress.com/thesund ... 558823.ece

NEW DELHI: Centralisation of all universities in India is on the cards and is a messenger of mixed tidings for Indian academia. While the idea of all Central universities merging into one with 45 different campuses across the country and a common curriculum, admission procedure and a common pool of faculty and mobility is definitely good news for students, talk of a mobile faculty may be a cause of worry for the teachers.

The Working Group of Vice Chancellors, appointed by the new government in September, has submitted a report to the HRD minister Smriti Irani last week recommending standardisation of all Central Universities. The sub-committee report, accessed by The Sunday Standard, has put forward dramatic recommendations which could overhaul the entire university culture in India. To begin with there will be a Common Entrance Test (CET) for admission to all universities. It means there will be a single-point entry for students from all over the country seeking admissions to prestigious Central Universities. This will give students across various boards and streams a common platform to compete for a seat and students will be allotted universities as per merit.

As of now, different universities are holding independent entrances to admit students. This will give way to a common admission procedure with an all-India ranking which could help students decide which university to opt for.

“It is a very good move as it would help the universities in far-flung areas to get good students. Otherwise not many will apply specifically to an upcoming university in a remote area,’’ said a source in the know.

Then, there would be a common curriculum for all universities. According to the recommendations, there will be uniformity in syllabus as far as core curriculum is concerned. “There will be uniformity in the core curriculum while there would be flexibility as far as electives are concerned,’’ reads the recommendation. Another major proposal with the potential for creating a huge controversy is the one on “faculty mobility”. It means that a professor teaching in Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU) can be transferred to a remote university and this is bound to create unrest among teachers, especially those who teach in prestigious universities such as Delhi University (DU) or JNU. “We know that there will be protests. But it can be implemented in a positive way if those teachers who opt for transfers are rewarded with points which will be counted for their promotion,’’ said the source. Another equally important suggestion is the introduction of student mobility which will allow students to migrate to a different university during the course. Towards this, the Working Group has recommended credit transfer system which allow the credits of the students to be transferred to the other university where s/he wants to join next.

The Working Group comprised VCs of University of Delhi, Central University of Gujarat, Central University of Kerala, Central University of Jharkhand, Babasaheb Bhimrao Ambedkar University (Lucknow), Tripura University and Pondicherry University. “The Ministry has received the recommendations and most of them are quite revolutionary. They have the potential of addressing lots of issues which are plaguing the Indian academics. It is up to the government to take the final call,’’ a source with the HRD Ministry said.

According to the official, the government is most likely to accept these recommendations as they match the “thinking’’ within the government. “Though all these measures look like centralisation, what it does in effect is de-centralisation of knowledge. In the current scenario, only those studying in JNU or DU get the best out of the system. But as per the new recommendations, a student studying in a remote university will also have equal access. This is the best scenario for knowledge sharing,’’ said the source.

The previous UPA government had also tried something on similar lines when Kapil Sibal was the HRD minister. But he did not succeed as JNU and DU had opposed the move to have a common entrance exam and curriculum, arguing that their exclusivity would be lost with this standardisation. But with this government there does not seem much scope for blind opposition. “There is too much autonomy with some universities now. The government may in all likelihood bring all the Central Universities under a single legislation,’’ said a source in the government.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by panduranghari »

gakakkad wrote:

you beat me to posting this.. seriously it is policies like these that have made India a messy country...effectively blocking nri kids out of an Indian education..as it is no foreign student aspires to be in IIT... Except nris ...and we block the NRIs ... IIMs had the epiphany to increase foreign involvement ...

MIT,Stanford,caltech etc would have been nowhere near where they are , had it not been for immigrants... half the faculty is in these is foreign born..

when would we get rid of this sarkari mentality? we need private research universities... but that in Indian context means donation quota colleges..
Indian educational set up is geared to producing headcounts for western nations, irrespective of the faculty. Once we get this, all the policies right from ground level to the very top make sense. In India, education is confused with literacy.

Gakakkad saar, once you do R2I please post your experience. It would be very fascinating to read. I know quite a few guys who did and are very happy for it. Most are in late 40's or early 50's.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Aditya_V »

Actually I want this NRI category to be open to RI's(DASA) or JEE Advancced if they are willing to put the money,
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Agnimitra »

X-post from Link Language thread in GDF:

These Charts Show Which Languages Have The Most Global Influence
Very useful charts.

Crucial points:
1) Inter-language book translations
2) Online knowledge bases
3) Use on Social Media
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by SriKumar »

gakakkad wrote:I have been involved in some cutting edge research..But sadly having gone to med school straight from high school makes me unable to add anything additional to the table ..especially when there are amreeki docs who have graduate/Pee chaddi level training in various branches of pure science or engineering..I tried to learn as much as I could , but certainly can't match people who had PhDs in biomed engineering or chemical engineering or computer science before they entered med school .. Most of the cutting edge stuff is done by MD PhDs or MDs who already had an MS before entering med school.. I did attempt making some mathematical models and some molecular biology stuff.. but never really took off...........
gakakkad, could you please expand a bit more on the bolded part? I've seen your posts in Math and Physics threads, so I have some idea of the grounding (NTS etc) there. Where was the issue in picking up what was needed and progressing it?
a) Was it more a matter of not having the subject knowledge of some niche area of a subject, or was it more about breadth perhaps....or was it something completely different? b) What was it that was missing, by comparison. If you can go detailed, that would be appreciated.
(Cross-posted from Nukkad thread.)
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

I have been looking into some alternative systems of education developed by Indians in the last 100 years, and found at least 3 attempts: Vivekananda's Ramkrishna mission/ Mathas, Rabindranath Tagore's Shantiniketan, Madan Mohan Malviya's Benaras Hindu University.

Unfortunately these were left confined within a small zone and any attempts to replicate them on a large scale were buried soon after Independence by the Kongress and the Lord of Seculars, who apparently prefered to continue on with British Indian Macaulay 'secular' education.

No wonder things are what they are. Still there is some recognition now that the problem exists and is pretty serious. Macaulay education will not do. It needs to be removed else we are not going anywhere.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by SriKumar »

Cross-posting gakakkad's response from Nukkad thread:
SriKumar wrote: gakakkad, could you please expand a bit more on the bolded part? I've seen your posts in Math and Physics threads, so I have some idea of the grounding (NTS etc) there. Where was the issue in picking up what was needed and progressing it?
a) Was it more a matter of not having the subject knowledge of some niche area of a subject, or was it more about breadth perhaps....or was it something completely different? b) What was it that was missing, by comparison. If you can go detailed, that would be appreciated.

Cross-posted to education thread-link below. You can respond there if you prefer.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1768341
Part of it has to do with the fact that to do fundamental bio-medical research or innovation or translational research , can only be done if you know the relevant basic or pure science. If a new drug has to be discovered , one must have a decent knowledge of not only pharmacology and molecular biology ,but also structural and organic chemistry . If one needs to invent a new kind of medical device ,or improve and older one ,logically speaking one needs knowledge of relevant aspects of engineering . In med-school the world over , the primary emphasis would be on creating people that can treat patients.And it is a logical approach.Because that is what the objective is .And we have a massive syllabus to cover in the given time . Pharmacology that is taught ,is simplified in a manner that makes it relevant to patient care. Mechanisms are explained to aid understanding of the disease process and understand therapeutic implications. It is not intended that the learner of med school pharmacology would create new drugs..

In the US an undergrad degree is necessary to enter med school. Competition is tough and many people have a graduate or a doctoral degree before they enter med school. Some of them chose medicine as a second career. My observation is , that many of them are extraordinary individuals who have already been successful at a different profession. And when they use that knowledge to medicine , they end up with some very innovative research .
For eg one of my colleagues was a math major .. he had worked with topology..the branch of mathematics that deals with properties of shapes in space when subjected to deformations like bending. In laymans language it is the math of packing stuff.. He modified designs of per-cutaneous heart valves , that made them more compact. (These days aortic valves can be replaced without open surgery by reaching the heart from the femoral artery or subclavian vein.. This has lesser risk than surgical replacement.) This chap made the device 50% smaller than existing medtronic device. It ll undergo clinical trial in an years time..he got the idea because of the math he knew. And being a doctor enabled him to apply his math for improving medical systems.

Other guy is an electrical engineer. He is using his knowledge to do some exciting research in cardiac arrhythmias . (rhythm disorders).. he has patents related to implanted cardioverting defibrillators and some device manufacturers are looking at those..Again had he come directly to medicine ,he would not have been able to accomplish these.
other computer science guy is making some ai algorithms for processing of mri images ,that would make it easy for technicians ..he has some patented software for 3d image processing that makes 3d reconstruction look more realistic...

Many people from biochemical or molecular biology background enter medicine .Some of them are able to use there knowledge to discover new drugs and stuff..

i know 2 dozen such people personally...

I fashioned myself as a medical scientist. I became good doctor..but not quite a scientist. I tried taking additional graduate courses in molecular biology along with my residency training. But residency is hectic so I never reached far.Obviously ,I made residency the priority. first year of fellowship was even more hectic.. I have taken a few months off for family reasons..I am utilizing this time to catch up on the graduate course I got myself in when I was an Internal medicine resident a few years ago.. In my time I had high rank in pmt ,jee mains etc..sure that helped a bit..especially the physics and calculus part.. But in practical problem solving aspects , I get my h&d handed over..
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Re: Indian Education System

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gakakkad wrote: Part of it has to do with the fact that to do fundamental bio-medical research or innovation or translational research , can only be done if you know the relevant basic or pure science. If a new drug has to be discovered , one must have a decent knowledge of not only pharmacology and molecular biology ,but also structural and organic chemistry ....... In my time I had high rank in pmt ,jee mains etc..sure that helped a bit..especially the physics and calculus part.. But in practical problem solving aspects , I get my h&d handed over..
Thanks for the detailed response. I think it is very enlightening ....from a point-of-view of (i) what constitutes education, and (ii) the purpose of education. What was interesting to me was that a solid/expert-level grasp of the basics (in physics, chem, math etc.) was still not quite sufficient. A targeted focus on subject matter alone wont do it for 'innovation' (for multiple reasons....perhaps there's too much matter to cover, and the perspective that comes from problem-solving in a different field is also important). The sooner that this kind of thinking gets into the Indian system the better....Right now, the approach to (formal) education is pretty uni-dimensional; and inflexible.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

If I understand correctly, Indian medical education is vocational training, ie. it trains one to be a practicing doctor. Basically like ITIs train welders, fitters, electricians and so on. It is probably not well suited to research purposes.
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Re: Indian Education System

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csaurabh wrote:If I understand correctly, Indian medical education is vocational training, ie. it trains one to be a practicing doctor. Basically like ITIs train welders, fitters, electricians and so on. It is probably not well suited to research purposes.
not exactly.. medical education system everywhere trains people to be practicing doctors . Due to the exam system , the Indian system has more book reading and the american system ,if anything is more practical . Most american docs are not researchers . they are the usual docs .. But you have a higher proportion of research docs because of the background candidates have before entering med school and also because several american schools offer the integrated MD PhD with a research pathway.. some schools like Lerner have made research compulsory .. Its not that Indian docs don't do research.. They do a lot of clinical research...but most don't have knowledge to do basic translational research..
The Indian system needs to improve a good deal..
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Re: Indian Education System

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Is "clinical research" research and are "clinical professors" professors? Are they subsumed by Industry/institutional researchers and professors?
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by hanumadu »

SriKumar wrote:Cross-posting gakakkad's response from Nukkad thread:
Part of it has to do with the fact that to do fundamental bio-medical research or innovation or translational research , can only be done if you know the relevant basic or pure science. If a new drug has to be discovered , one must have a decent knowledge of not only pharmacology and molecular biology ,but also structural and organic chemistry . If one needs to invent a new kind of medical device ,or improve and older one ,logically speaking one needs knowledge of relevant aspects of engineering . In med-school the world over , the primary emphasis would be on creating people that can treat patients.And it is a logical approach.Because that is what the objective is .And we have a massive syllabus to cover in the given time . Pharmacology that is taught ,is simplified in a manner that makes it relevant to patient care. Mechanisms are explained to aid understanding of the disease process and understand therapeutic implications. It is not intended that the learner of med school pharmacology would create new drugs..

...
In India there is an age limit after which you do not qualify for a medical seat. There is no academic path to major in something else before doing your medicine.
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Re: Indian Education System

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Interestingly however I know 1 person who decided to go for Masters in Biomedical Engineering ( at IIT ) after MBBS instead of becoming a practising doctor. He is now doing some good work in prosthetics .
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I am against coaching classes as a concept but I can understand their uses. This one seems pretty cool from their ad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Gw39OoSyI

Check out their proof of the Baudhayana ( Pythagoras ) theorem. It is very similar to that of Bhaskara's - probably inspired by it.
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Re: Indian Education System

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matrimc wrote:Is "clinical research" research and are "clinical professors" professors? Are they subsumed by Industry/institutional researchers and professors?

clinical research is certainly genuine scientific research...it encompasses a diverse kind of research..if we look at the recent issue of the new england journal of medicine(which is amongst the best regarded journals in medicine , personally my favourite ) we find a good mix of clinical and basic research..

http://www.nejm.org/toc/nejm/371/24

it was clinical research that help us discover the causative organism of peptic ulcer , or that smoking causes cancer..it is clinical research that help us formulate treatment protocols..clinical research helps us answer questions like whether surgery is useful for a cancer or chemo or radiation...or if all three are useful , what sequence should be given in what type of patient...it helps answer questions like what antihypertensive is useful in which patient...

Clinical and basic research complement each other...

In the American context , clinical professor usually means an attending doctor affiliated with a teaching hospital , who teaches med students and supervises residents...even though a lot of medicine can be empirical , it still has to be taught properly and supervised expertly..in my opinion India too should have equivalent of clinical professors for medical colleges..India only has tenured professors in med schools... this deprives the opportunity of patients to be under the care of well known private practitioners and students/residents to learn from top docs...
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Re: Indian Education System

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Some random/unrelated thoughts on the topic:

I dont fully understand where the rigidity in the education system came from, and more importantly, why does it still persist. It is easy to say 'Macaulay', but I wonder if there is more to it. I think a BIG part of perpetuating the rigidity (apart from bureaucracy) is the perception of what constitutes a successful career after education. Right now, my opinion is that it is the size of the pay packet one gets after B.E./B.Tech. Big packet=success achieved. What is done/achieved after 10 years in a job is not given much primacy in media; and outside of media (i.e. among friends/relatives etc.) as well. The other measure of success is the position occupied in a 'hotshot' company. I think these rigid/calcified viewpoints 'flow backward' and contribute to the perpetuate the pre-existing rigidity in the education system.

Medieval and ancient India executed very major projects in civil engineering, 1000, 2000 and 4500 years ago. These projects were world-class at that time, and are quite impressive even by today's standards. The large temples built (especially those in Tamil Nadu) were massive projects.... requiring a knowledge of construction and long-term project management. The Grand Anicut dam on Kaveri (Kallanai dam) is another example - built about 2000 years ago. The forts of Rajasthan (Mehrangarh for example), again are examples of great engineering ability (for that time) and construction. The port of Lothal in Gujarat (Indus Valley civilization) would have required a knowledge of hydraulics, tides, marine engineering and construction techniques- built 4000 years ago. What systems of education produced the people to build all these? I think the answer to this will give us an idea of pre-existing systems of education.
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Re: Indian Education System

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csaurabh wrote:Interestingly however I know 1 person who decided to go for Masters in Biomedical Engineering ( at IIT ) after MBBS instead of becoming a practising doctor. He is now doing some good work in prosthetics .
Four MBBS people all classmates went that route. Three came to US and one went on a Rhodes schol to Oxford. they did their PhDs first and then three of them MDs. I think that is a better sequence since PhD one may or may not get but MD is time bound. When you have the enthu finish PhD. Another, american educated wasp, also did theoretical CS PhD - he was trying to make computers learn Boolean formulas (his advisor was Leslie valiant's student) - first and then went on to doing an MD. He was a very good CS theorist. Nothing came if it because even the limited goal of Boolean formula leraning is hard - lot of heuristics and empirical observations need to be brought into play even though the problem is easily stated. Leslie valiant who is a Turing winner started the area. Al, that training in stats and logic would help him enormously in his clinical practice.

For example AFAIK, prof. John Rogers is a solid state physicist to start with, but holds primary appointment in materials engg., and secondary EE, ME, Bioengg, and physics.

The kind of schedule he follows would be impossible for anybody who would themselves a punishing schedule like practicing physicians and surgeons and the urgency of finishing the task at hand on time.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 24 Dec 2014 22:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Education System

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More details in nukkad under burkha.
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Re: Indian Education System

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Oh by the the sequence PhD follopwed by MD has the advantage of most of one's required MD courses are paid for though the RA ship. During MD one can do pist doc + residency combined.
I Xoect to spend ten years after undergrad for MD/PhD.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

SriKumar wrote:Some random/unrelated thoughts on the topic:

I dont fully understand where the rigidity in the education system came from, and more importantly, why does it still persist. It is easy to say 'Macaulay', but I wonder if there is more to it. I think a BIG part of perpetuating the rigidity (apart from bureaucracy) is the perception of what constitutes a successful career after education. Right now, my opinion is that it is the size of the pay packet one gets after B.E./B.Tech. Big packet=success achieved. What is done/achieved after 10 years in a job is not given much primacy in media; and outside of media (i.e. among friends/relatives etc.) as well. The other measure of success is the position occupied in a 'hotshot' company. I think these rigid/calcified viewpoints 'flow backward' and contribute to the perpetuate the pre-existing rigidity in the education system.

Medieval and ancient India executed very major projects in civil engineering, 1000, 2000 and 4500 years ago. These projects were world-class at that time, and are quite impressive even by today's standards. The large temples built (especially those in Tamil Nadu) were massive projects.... requiring a knowledge of construction and long-term project management. The Grand Anicut dam on Kaveri (Kallanai dam) is another example - built about 2000 years ago. The forts of Rajasthan (Mehrangarh for example), again are examples of great engineering ability (for that time) and construction. The port of Lothal in Gujarat (Indus Valley civilization) would have required a knowledge of hydraulics, tides, marine engineering and construction techniques- built 4000 years ago. What systems of education produced the people to build all these? I think the answer to this will give us an idea of pre-existing systems of education.
The British Indian Education system was set up by Macaulay in order to produce clerks and peons for the British raaj, then after independence it was repurposed to produce 'babus' and 'workers' for the license raaj, and then further repurposed to mass produce assembly line 'graduates' to man foreign multi national companies. It was never intended for the purpose of learning, understanding, research, innovation, entrepreneurship, so why are we surprised when it doesn't fulfil those functions?

Part of the problem is the 'system' ( which includes Macaulay education as well as outside pressures like Media reporting like pay packet, etc. ) . The other big problem is the teachers that run the system, a large majority of whom are mentally bankrupt with no desire to teach nor to learn. Alternative teaching systems today ( there are many types that I know about ) try to address the problem from outside of the Macaulay education system which is laudable but are still missing the point. Unless we reform the core of Macaulay education, nibbling away at the edges does not do much good.

I will also note that concepts like 'marks', 'exams' ,'degree' , 'job/placement', 'syllabus/curriculum' ,etc. did not exist in historical Indian education. They are all British colonial imports with a baggage of their own.
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Re: Indian Education System

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csaurabh wrote: It was never intended for the purpose of learning, understanding, research, innovation, entrepreneurship, so why are we surprised when it doesn't fulfil those functions?
The bolded part is total strawman. My post does not express any surprise. Perhaps you meant someone else (but quoted my post). And yes, the idea about Brits wanting to produce clerks has been discussed on BRF about 3-4 years ago (poster 'shiv' brought it up a long time ago, in the same context).
I will also note that concepts like 'marks', 'exams' ,'degree' ,...... 'syllabus/curriculum' ,etc. did not exist in historical Indian education
If this was generally the case, this is interesting. Can you point to any link, or give additional information on this Indic system described above that did not rely on exams/marks? The rishi-based gurukula...I've heard, but is there anything that trained 50 or 100 (or hundreds) of students at a time i.e. in numbers substantial enough to affect a society in practical terms.

I think there is more to it than the Brits- who clearly framed the entire education system for the time they ruled. But the domination was 'only' about 300 years. Within a framework of a history that is 2000 to 4000 years old, there has to be something beyond (and prior to) the Brits. If there was a significant system in placeprior to that, it should not be too difficult to find details of the framework; say, for 1500 a.d. or 1000 a.d. at which time vast swathes of India were free of Brits, and also from external invasions for a good portion (1000 a.d.) . I dont find anything that gives details of a large system of education. Nalanda is a fine example of a large university, but what was the system of teaching there is not known to me. The primary questions would be: Were 'applied' subjects taught and if so how, how was research conducted, and how were students trained to apply their knowledge after leaving college/university- these are important questions when examining an education system within the context we are discussing. Taxila is mentioned as a center of learning- Chanakya was supposed to have been associated with it somehow, but what do we know about the method of teaching here? I have no idea. The city of Kashi does seem to have a continuous/unbroken tradition of teaching, probably for 1000+ years or more (in pockets), but as I understand it, it was (and still is) for exclusively for religious scripture- which is quite different from learning about nature and 'manipulating' it.

One way to figure out something is to look for historical texts/narratives. In absence of that, or even with their presence, another way to figure out is what was done/achieved with the knowledge, and work your way backwards (and hence my examples of ports/temples/forts- these clearly were not trivial works, and definite beg an answer.). As far as I know, this line of enquiry has not been tackled at all (with the exception of mathematics, trignometry, astronomy- where the achievements and contributions are well-known, atleast to some; but even here, I dont see much detail about a system of education, but it is quite possible that all the progress made was mostly or solely by a few famous stalwarts in the field, say, Aryabhatta, Bhaskara, Varahamihira etc. in which case, one does not need a substantial system of education to train a large number of people. One guru with 4-5 students would be sufficient to advance the field if just one of the students turns out to be an Aryabatta.).
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Re: Indian Education System

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SriKumar wrote: I think there is more to it than the Brits- who clearly framed the entire education system for the time they ruled. But the domination was 'only' about 300 years. Within a framework of a history that is 2000 to 4000 years old, there has to be something beyond (and prior to) the Brits. If there was a significant system in placeprior to that, it should not be too difficult to find details of the framework; say, for 1500 a.d. or 1000 a.d. at which time vast swathes of India were free of Brits, and also from external invasions for a good portion (1000 a.d.) . I dont find anything that gives details of a large system of education. Nalanda is a fine example of a large university, but what was the system of teaching there is not known to me. The primary questions would be: Were 'applied' subjects taught and if so how, how was research conducted, and how were students trained to apply their knowledge after leaving college/university- these are important questions when examining an education system within the context we are discussing. Taxila is mentioned as a center of learning- Chanakya was supposed to have been associated with it somehow, but what do we know about the method of teaching here? I have no idea. The city of Kashi does seem to have a continuous/unbroken tradition of teaching, probably for 1000+ years or more (in pockets), but as I understand it, it was (and still is) for exclusively for religious scripture- which is quite different from learning about nature and 'manipulating' it.

One way to figure out something is to look for historical texts/narratives. In absence of that, or even with their presence, another way to figure out is what was done/achieved with the knowledge, and work your way backwards (and hence my examples of ports/temples/forts- these clearly were not trivial works, and definite beg an answer.). As far as I know, this line of enquiry has not been tackled at all (with the exception of mathematics, trignometry, astronomy- where the achievements and contributions are well-known, atleast to some; but even here, I dont see much detail about a system of education, but it is quite possible that all the progress made was mostly or solely by a few famous stalwarts in the field, say, Aryabhatta, Bhaskara, Varahamihira etc. in which case, one does not need a substantial system of education to train a large number of people. One guru with 4-5 students would be sufficient to advance the field if just one of the students turns out to be an Aryabatta.).
The answer is that we simply don't know..
Universities of higher learning were destroyed by muslims ( Nalanda, Takshila, Kashi, etc. ), the Rishi-Gurukul type or other primary education system was destroyed by the British. What we have are bits and pieces that we try to reconstruct what might have been.

Indians have never been good history keepers. The only reason we know about- say- Bhaskara, is that he actually states in his works - 'I am Bhaskara, born on so and so, etc.' If you look at his works, the Lilavati for instance is simply a bunch of mathematical challenges in the form of Sanskrit poetry. No answers are provided. No context is provided. By looking at the text we can deduce that he was aware of complex mathematical concepts such as sine, cosine, binomial theorem, etc. But we actually don't know whether Bhaskara was the one who came up with those things or whether those things were applied to temple building or w/ever.

There are vast amount of Indian texts that we just don't know who the authors were. They apparently did not consider it important to record their names, let alone the context in which those concepts were developed or what were the uses for them.

Post-Independence historians instead of digging into such things have instead been pushing marxist ideologies- Aryan invasion, caste system, poverty, blabla
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Whatever was done may be was very advanced for that time period. But the stark fact is that all areas of sciences and humanities and human knowledge in general have advanced so much so that even the most ardent advocates of the both physical and mental prowess would be hard put connect what their ancestors knew with the current state of knowledge. There is absolutely no sense in going back to "Gurukula" system of one guru imparting knowledge to a select few (elite). What are the current university towns with dorms and off-campus accommodation but "Gurukulas" taken to their logical conclusion?

Today one person cannot know even what is all the research being done in the world in her own area (make it as narrow as you want) leave alone reading and understanding all the research.
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Re: Indian Education System

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matrimc wrote:There is absolutely no sense in going back to "Gurukula" system of one guru imparting knowledge to a select few (elite). What are the current university towns with dorms and off-campus accommodation but "Gurukulas" taken to their logical conclusion?
You are welcome to think that if you wish. That Gurukulas are an elite system of one guru imparting knowledge to a few. That is a typical commie-marxist line of thinking, usually with a caste interpretation on top of it. This is in line with typical commie/western propaganda- India was wallowing in poverty, ignorance, caste system, etc. until the benevolent British arrived and gave their knowledge, technology, civilization to the savage heathen peoples..

Evidence suggests that this was nowhere near the case. The average standard of education was quite high before British rule. Illiteracy was almost non existent. The British destroyed this native system and established the Macaulay system which is in fact an elite system, where you needed to know English and get a 'degree' in order to get a 'job'. That is what we have even now.

British accounts of the time note that there were 1 lakh schools in Bengal. I wonder if there are 1 lakh schools in Bengal even today.
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