Indian Education System

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 Sep 2015 22:30

I am told even TIFR (Mumbai) has an outside review of their department by peers every decade or so, I mean from outside of India too. So oversight is a good thing and to identify gaps.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 24 Sep 2015 22:44

From what I have gathered it was even difficult to setup a school let alone a univ or college except for missionaries. This flood of private schools, colleges and univs happened post-90s, univs post 2000. However, I agree with the view that Indian capitalists are not big on philanthropy yet. Recently though Premji (Wipro) has pledged a lot of money on education. I am surprised people are complaining about wrong people investing in education. Check some of the big names in US education to get their background. I don't see any need for interference beyond a set of regulations which need to be followed. In my estimation the bottom percentile which is riling up everyone will not survive in the long run. Either they are going to get bracketed by employers and forced to change or they will run out of business.

Bade, that is a different kind of oversight.

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 25 Sep 2015 05:35

Bade wrote:Maybe it is time for private entrepreneurs to start liberal arts and sciences UG campuses instead of just Engg colleges. A blend of STEM and arts with an emphasis on STEM areas perhaps. For this to happen the recruiters have to also move away from entertaining job applications from BE/BTech degree holders even when core engineering skills are not required for the job.

New universities like Ashoka mentioned here should experiment with these ideas. A broad science and mathematics based education for the populace will throw up innovative thinking in the long run.

The problem with 'liberal arts' and 'humanities' in India is that it is totally mentally colonized and dominated by commies. This means that:
a) students don't pay any attention and just mug things without understanding ( very common )
b) students who do pay attention become sickular jholawallahs macaulayites
also its totally disconnected with job market.

So arts education in its current form ( political science, sociology, etc. ) should not be encouraged in India.

What could be done is to promote Spicmacay like activities, even set up departments for classical music, dance, traditional arts and crafts, Sanskrit, Indian literature, Yoga, Ayurveda, Indian martial arts, etc. This along with STEM departments. That would be a fantastic university.

Re. flipkart guys should probably focus on flipkart, Amazon is eating their lunch.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 25 Sep 2015 10:15

Bade wrote:You are quick to point to the dynasty, but what about the capitalists of the day. Tatas and Birlas. Why was not BITS model expanded across the nation ? Same the old IISc (Tata Institute as they call it in B'lur) not multiplied across ? The GoI of the day at least built 5 IITs and multiple RECs to provide for the baseline needs of the nation. Credit should be given where due and to the taxpayers who wholeheartedly support the GoI in their efforts even when their individual needs (quality primary education) was overlooked largely.

Situation was complex as Suprantik says...

Back in the day IIRC there was paper circulated within GOI of a target for total 8,000 or so engineers for whole of India. PWD department was instructed to have ratio of 1 engineer to 50-100 draft person. I bet that rule or something similar still rattles around in the dying PWD. In the modern world engineers do all their own drafting these days. Much faster and cheaper. Because India had few engineers, and fewer staying in the profession, babu thinking was that things could be done without engineers. so the word went out that no engineering schools were needed.
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The availability of hordes of cheap engineers has opened many new industries in India just to take advantage of this. Classic example is the IT boom. Did anyone think in 1990 that it would become a $200 billion industry! 1/10th of our GDP! A whole host of MNC types flocked to India to take advantage, staffing their manufacturing factories to the teeth with engineers. From all reports every factory that has drafted in Indian engineers has benefited and is now at very top of quality and competitiveness. There was report in a magazine recently that the Samsung product defect rate in India for some lines is now in the 6-7 per million units. this is world class quality. This is only possible because of the high skilled people they can hire. Cheap. And by the 100,000 type bus load. Take a look at the Metro thread, every tunnel is crawling with dozens of young engineer types manning every nook and cranny of the TBM machines. All possible due to the boom in supply...

I think if we can increase medical doctor numbers to a surplus, new industries will pop up to take advantage of the cheap Indian doctor surplus. This would be to the nations advantage.

BTW knowing the rural situation I would not get too worried about young kids learning on the job. Right now due to doctor shortage the vast majority of folks see no doctor at all! And majority end up in front of quacks who kill them at a fairly rapid clip... ...in my town the majority of dental care is taken care of by shoe cobblers! The standard treatment is to pull tooth... ...anything is a huge improvement over this... ..no saars, I say sign up as many as you can to become doctors. A surplus of doctors will trigger another economic boom for India.... ...need to bring it down from the commanding heights, just like engineers....
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Just last week I was reading athis report on the Nanguneri SEZ and the almost the first comment by the Japanese was the visible presence of Engineering colleges. We may call them cowsheds but they definitely have impact on investors.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... 647027.ece

The Japanese consultants, after visiting the Tuticorin Port, drove down to the Nanguneri SEZ to assess the infrastructure created on the 2,520 acres acquired for the multiproduct special economic zone. While 1,780 acres have been earmarked for industrial investments, social infrastructure will come up on 740 acres.

“The four-lane highway connecting the seaport and the SEZ is quite good and there is no traffic jam at any point, which made our hour-long travel pleasant. I could see good number of engineering colleges en route which gives me the message that availability of skilled workforce in this region for any task would be good,” Sonny Kim, vice-president, Nomura Research Institute India Private Limited, told The Hindu after going around the SEZ.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 25 Sep 2015 16:09

Supratik wrote:What the Europeans achieved in mass and high quality education over 500 yrs we are attempting in about a 100 yrs. So we need the numbers ASAP. Can't wait for IIT stds from the very beginning. If the Nehru-Gandhis had understood this early we wouldn't be left with a piddly 5 IITS for a few decades. I think you can have bad govt schools but you ultimately cannot have bad private schools becoz you will loose money. Eventually. So I am not worried with the mushrooming private colleges and universities as I am pretty sure when the appetite is met people will expect quality which is a good job or a good position. If you run a bad college or university you are eventually going to have to shut it. It can happen as fast as within 20 yrs.

the literacy rate o most of oirope was 50% or less in 1800s...

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 25 Sep 2015 18:31

What I meant was that they took roughly 500 yrs to reach where they have reached. Japan is the only non-Euro society competing with them (not even SoKo or China despite propaganda) who took less time.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 25 Sep 2015 20:04

gakakkad wrote:the literacy rate o most of oirope was 50% or less in 1800s...

It was different across different parts of EU. North was much better. Italy was 20% in 1850! and as low as 50% as late as 1900. Netherlands 80% literate in 1750! Britain was 100% literate in 1947, India somewhere between 5% & 10%, with women's literacy somewhere around 2%! Strong language comes to mind WRT the british... IIRC in 1870 USA was 80% literate, despite civil war, travel problems, massive far flung villages, etc.... .. essentially fully literate....

The key difference is higher education, for a long time Northern EU essentially monopolized this.... ...all the universities were there.. ..esp. those with a scientific temperament...
for instance Vasco Da Gama was a trained Navigator at university when such a position was completely unknown in rest of world. Christopher Columbus was a self taught man who had access to his local university library where he read just about every book on navigation and the earth. Europe for centuries had access to such skilled navigators, trained military officers, book keepers, accountants, engineers, and medical practitioners that the rest of the world missed the boat. We rightly decry colonialism but miss the skills of these invaders that made such adventures possible…

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 25 Sep 2015 21:05

And we have to do it in 100 yrs for 1.6-1.8 billion people. This is an enormous challenge. Can't be too picky. We need both quantity as well as quality at least at the top. If we look at the major universities in the west they also took time to reach where they have reached. So keep on trying and give it some time. You can't catch up in 20 yrs which is basically the time that has lapsed from where mass education in India really picked up.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 26 Sep 2015 02:39

Supratik wrote:And we have to do it in 100 yrs for 1.6-1.8 billion people. This is an enormous challenge. Can't be too picky. We need both quantity as well as quality at least at the top. If we look at the major universities in the west they also took time to reach where they have reached. So keep on trying and give it some time. You can't catch up in 20 yrs which is basically the time that has lapsed from where mass education in India really picked up.

actually we are more than 1/2 way through.... our present literacy is 80%...which is higher than what large portions of the west had in early 1900s...majority of illiteracy are older individuals...in a decades time we ll have 95% + literacy as our primary school enrollments are approaching 100% even in worst of the places...

where we need to achieve is higher education and research...

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 26 Sep 2015 02:39

It is nobody's case that we don't need quantity. But the caveat is that some minimum quality must be maintained. Lateral entry from two year polytech is not a bad idea for a 5 year engg. Those who do extremely well in the first two years can be admitted into engg. third year. Others can finish the three year polytech degree, get some work experience and get credits for entering engg. colleges into 4th year.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 26 Sep 2015 04:56

The problem is our standard is dismal, and quantity is not there either. 80% of the students drop out before +2, only 15% enroll in colleges and less than 5% ( this is a guess, this used to be 3%, I could not find more recent figure ) finally graduate. For comparison 85% Americans graduate from high school, and over 35% graduate from college.

In the 2009 Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), participating schools from TN and HP finish 74 out 75, just ahead of Kyrgyzstan.

The literacy rate of 80% ( 75% per 2011 census) is also a dubious stat. since India measures literacy by a persons ability to write one's name and be able to read. Even by this criteria, when strictly applied in surveys, only about 50% people are able to qualify.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 26 Sep 2015 05:40

Dipanker saheb: While literacy rate itself is not dubious, at least one generation had been sacrificed ti achieve that. I don't want to say more lest I betray my home state (and my family's support to certain big-wigs in that state) public.
TIFWIW.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 26 Sep 2015 14:11

@gakkakad,

We are no longer talking about literacy anymore. As you pointed out we are going to reach the 90s in another 15-20 yrs. As Dipanker pointed out the challenge is in graduation. We need to reach SoKo-Japan levels which is technical expertise for 80-95% of the population. And we have to do it by 2050 if we are to see the fruits in one-two generations. So we need a humongous amount of investment. A few IITs-IISERs or even RECs will not cut it. Which is why govt has made way for private investment. Huge universities are being put up even in Commie WB. That is where the growth is going to come from. As I pointed out eventually the bad ones are going to have to compete or disappear. People can make the difference between Harvard and University of Timbucktoo.

Vriksh · Post by **Vriksh** » 26 Sep 2015 17:26

How are private Univs like Lovely, Amity on the whole their class size is of the order of 25k/year?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 26 Sep 2015 21:20

^^^
We need an app for this... ..so students/parents can rate their universities/colleges.... ..wonder if brf can start such a project...

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 26 Sep 2015 21:51

Vriksh wrote:How are private Univs like Lovely, Amity on the whole their class size is of the order of 25k/year?

Amity is the one by Mata Amritanandamayi's foundation, right? One of nephews studied there in CS. Came out quite good with a healthy interest in Algorithms, complexity, and other foundational topics. They would have had good teachers otherwise it is hard to get excited about the theoretical CS as opposed to knowing and interested only in the latest and greatest languages (ex. Java, Pyhton)/Big Data/Analytics kind of buzzwords and settle into an outsourcing job. Even though he is in a job right now just to get some real life experience, I predict he would go for an MS if not a PhD unless he gets married.

I also know a top writing widely used textbooks kind of top (emeritus now) EM professor who used to teach there with just a small honorarium. He is impressed with the grass roots work Mata is doing.

I have no idea about Lovely though.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 26 Sep 2015 22:00

That is not Amity, hers is the Amrita Group of Institutions. They have an engg college in Bangalore, near Coimbatore and one in Kayamkulam. They also have a medical college in Kochi (AIMS) which is pretty big. There is another campus where liberal arts and sciences are being taught near Kochi.

AIMS and the Coimbatore campus have some senior retired IIT folks including US returned young ones.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 26 Sep 2015 22:02

Correct Amity is not Amrutha !

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 26 Sep 2015 22:06

Theo_Fidel wrote:^^^
We need an app for this... ..so students/parents can rate their universities/colleges.... ..wonder if brf can start such a project...

while it would certainly be a commercial success and make good money , I am not sure it would improve education...anyway it is a good idea..if anyone is interested I am willing to invest...

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 26 Sep 2015 23:21

There are already a number of rating systems and I believe they also do private institutions. You will see them claiming rankings in their ads. I follow both Amity and SRM (Chennai based). They are at a very early stage of evolution but they are ambitious. Do not expect Harvard yet. One thing that is seriously lacking is private R&D. The new ones have their focus on teaching and training.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 26 Sep 2015 23:53

Most of the names mentioned here have infrastructure which is almost top end. Faculty also they try to get from whatever little talent is available in India, from IITs, NITs and other reputed institutions. Most of the admission process is based on some sort of merit . Fees are quite high and they give a lot of emphasis on extra curricular and on placement. I mean they would fit into Cowshed type description. They would give run for the money to even IIT in terms of infra etc. I have seen some of the cowshed colleges finally getting good building labs and slowly students too.I don't compare them with Harvard etc. But even IITs are not in top 100 if you ask.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 27 Sep 2015 00:21

The best material (majority) for faculty have gone abroad and are at present unaffordable. The best who return do so for stability. Which is why they choose to go to govt institutes.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 27 Sep 2015 03:45

prasannasimha wrote:Correct Amity is not Amrutha !

OK then. The one I am talking about is Amrutha. So no idea about Lovely or Amity.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 27 Sep 2015 03:52

I was advising one SRM (dilli billi) student on applying to US universities. Seems to have quite a few decent tie-ups with big name universities here. If they make the cut (the policy is that the student needs to have GPA above certain cutoff) they will get admission. They certainly do have a lot emphasis on Extra-curricular. IMHO a little more than what is required. ExtraC As matter only for UG admissions in the US. For Grad school, they could not care less what your hobbies are or whether you played volleyball for the college/university/state/nation. In fact the fewer the hobbies the higher the chances of getting in with assitantships/aid.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 27 Sep 2015 04:37

A few retired ISRO folks are at SRM now. One was even gave a colloquim here while on a US tour and that is when I came to know of SRM. The private univs need to tap into the DRDO/CSIR/ISRO retired folks looking for a second innings.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 27 Sep 2015 08:17

^^Yes, SRM Univ. is different in that way, they seem ambitious and have a long-term vision. They even biult a satellite (this is pvt univ. that pushed hte prject and funded it) and got it launched. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRMSAT
Doubtless there were ex-ISRO people on the staff to help with satellite design.
I recall a post by a yak-herder (?) about advising this univ (or was it some other) on how to attract better students....

Vadivel · Post by **Vadivel** » 27 Sep 2015 08:54

Thats a good idea for the app. Can gakakkad and theo can you mail me at mk @ rhytha dot com.

Vadivel · Post by **Vadivel** » 27 Sep 2015 19:47

Once the most literate state in India, Kerala faces a serious crisis in education
Being overtaken by Tripura and Mizoram in literacy rankings is the least of worries for God's own country.

Kerala lost its enviable position as the country’s most literate state due to its failure to prevent more than a million neo-literates from relapsing into illiteracy. Overtaken by Tripura and Mizoram, Kerala may slide down further if a study by the State Council for Educational Research and Training is any indication.

The study conducted at the instance of the Accountant General showed that 5% of the students in class VII cannot identify alphabets, 35% of them can’t read or write their mother tongue, while 85% students are poor in basic science and 73% in mathematics.

Class IV students did not fare any better – 47% students can’t write in Malayalam and 25% in English. The case with maths and science was even worse: while 63% students are poor in mathematics, 73% do not have even basic knowledge in science.

The study was conducted among 4,800 students of class IV and VII in Kasargod, Thrissur, Ernakulam, Pathanamthitta and Thiruvananthapuram districts. The students were tested in language, maths and basic science. As many as 19% students in Thiruvananthapuram scored zero in geometry.

The illiterates, or those who never went to any school, fared far better. They were able to read and write after attending literacy classes for a few months.

Glut of teachers

The slide in academic standards in schools is despite the government according high priority to education. Public spending on education in the state is the highest in the country. About 37% of the state’s annual budget now goes to education. More than 80% of it is spent on school education.

Kerala now has one lower primary school for every square kilometre and one high school for every 4 sq km area. Almost all government schools, except a handful, have pucca buildings, access to drinking water, and toilet facilities for boys and girls.

The state also has a glut of teachers. A recent study by the education department showed that more than 3,500 schools in the state had less than 30 students each in 2014. There were 46,240 teachers in these schools, which translates to 13 teachers for every 30 students – or one teacher for every two students.

Experts have been calling for closure of such "uneconomic" schools and using the money saved for improving the quality of education.

The pass percentage in the Secondary School Leaving Certificate exam this year was a record 97.5%, which is in keeping with the trend of the last few years where the failure rate has been consistently less than 5% at the secondary level. While seeming to be very impressive, this could well be a symptom of the falling standard of education, as becomes apparent when the students move to higher studies or professional courses.

Let's consider the engineering and medical courses.

Engineering colleges

More than 50% students have been failing in BTech examinations conducted by universities in the state.

An analysis of the results of BTech examination conducted by the Kerala University in March 2014 showed that the pass percentage in two colleges was less than 10%, in seven colleges it was less than 20%, and in another 13 colleges, it was less than 30%.

Experts blame the skewed policies of the state government in sanctioning engineering colleges, especially in the self-financing sector, without ensuring adequate infrastructure and academic standards for this state of affairs.

GPC. Nayar, president of National Federation of Associations of Private Unaided Professional Colleges, blamed this low pass percentage on the steady fall in the standards of education in the state, linking it directly to to the no failures policy which results in the almost 100% pass percentage till the secondary school level.

The state high court, however, feels it is better to close down such colleges. After verifying the results of engineering colleges under four universities in the state, the court had given a direction to the government to consider closing down self-financing colleges with less than 40% pass percentage in the last three years.

An expert committee appointed by the court to study the quality of education in self-financing engineering colleges had identified 26 such colleges. The government has not acted on the suggestion but has set up a Technological University to improve the state of affairs.

P Isaac, the vice chancellor of the university said that the task was not easy as a complete overhauling of the technical education in the state is the need of the hour. The university, which covers 154 colleges, has launched a project-based teaching process.

Medical colleges

The experience in the medical sector has not been very encouraging either, as the performance of students in medical colleges has been showing a slide despite bringing them under a separate university for health sciences.

Even four years after the establishment of the Kerala University of Health Sciences, many of the colleges were showing dismal results. Last year’s results of the MBBS examination showed more than 30% failure in government and self-financing medical colleges in the state. The failure rate in some colleges was more than 90%.

It was no better for students pursuing nursing and paramedical courses. The pass percentage of the BSc Nursing examination conducted by the the university in 90 colleges during the academic year 2010-11 was 28.2%, B Pharm 5% and Physiotherapy 6%.

The university's former vice chancellor, Dr B Ekbal, sees the poor show as the result of total distortion in the medical education sector in the state. The high court wonders how the system could be allowed to dump sub-standard specimens on the unsuspecting public.

“It has come to a stage wherein before going to a doctor or a dentist, we should first ascertain as to from which college he has obtained the degree,” Justice S Siri Jagan observed recently, adding that the court hoped that wisdom will dawn at least now.

Unemployed and unemployable

A cynical response would be to say that people need not be worried as majority of those passing out of medical and engineering colleges are found to be unemployable.

Thousands of MBBS graduates and hundreds of post-graduates are languishing without jobs in the state at present, according to Kerala Medical Post Graduates Association.

As regards engineers, a survey conducted as part of National Employability Report for 2011 showed that Kerala figured at number 10 in terms of employability in the IT services sector among 16 states. This is despite one in every two students either dropping out of the course or failing in the exams.

The professional graduates add to the swelling army of unemployed in the state. The unemployment in the state is over three times the all India average. The number of unemployed in the live registers of employment exchange in 2013 stood at 39.78 lakhs.

http://scroll.in/article/757052/once-th ... -education

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 27 Sep 2015 20:30

what we need is better school education. All that is taught till class 8, if properly learnt, is enough for most employments. But parents and students seldom realize this and waste their efforts on 'higher education'. Post standard 8, education should be for a specific goal, like medicine, engineering, science, arts etc. After standard 8, students should be given a chance to study a vocational subject like cooking, plumbing, car repair, electrician, nursing, plant operation and after 2 years should be ready to become an apprentice in their field for another 2 years, after that they can become self employed or take up a job. This should be encouraged by government and all of us. No need to spend precious time and money on coaching classes.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 27 Sep 2015 20:37

More than 50% students have been failing in BTech examinations conducted by universities in the state.

An analysis of the results of BTech examination conducted by the Kerala University in March 2014 showed that the pass percentage in two colleges was less than 10%, in seven colleges it was less than 20%, and in another 13 colleges, it was less than 30%.

This may be good in the end. There is no need to pass people who may be incompetent and not meant for the field they chose to study. I would welcome this rather than have colleges give fake degrees instead at the end of four years.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 27 Sep 2015 20:44

Even four years after the establishment of the Kerala University of Health Sciences, many of the colleges were showing dismal results. Last year’s results of the MBBS examination showed more than 30% failure in government and self-financing medical colleges in the state. The failure rate in some colleges was more than 90%.

With gates now open wide, the checks once you enter need to be stringent. This very low % might also be indicating the need for a better foundational courses before entering an MBBS course. The idea of restricting MBBS admissions to post-BSc makes sense as the student really has time to decide if they are up to the requirements for a medical degree or not.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 27 Sep 2015 20:53

I have seen students coming from many of these schools and colleges and one thing is striking - they come to paramedical courses and cannot construct a sentence like "My name is XYZ" but have to learn complex medical issues which have life saving/threatening implications. It poses a big problem for us and some of them have scored "distinction" in English- I have to send them to conversational English courses and some have improved dramatically whereas others have languished and dropped out. I find it surprising that students who have passed their 12th standard in some of these states and schools do not know what Ohm's Law is. Claiming X % literacy is one thing and reality is another thing.(Often a political gimmick). One very obvious thing is this penchant to be PC and blaming low pass percentages as a failure of the system which promotes laxity- are we to molly coddle everyone - don't fail anyone despite bad performance through school years and then drop them into the competitive undergraduate programs and ask people to swim. The results are striking. Take the CA course - they are not apologetic about their course and the quality of their exams and 5-7 % pass in the first attempt. Let our students not kid themselves and understand that life is not easy. If it is bad in science and commerce imagine how it is in the Arts !!

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 27 Sep 2015 21:01

The reason for low pass rate is simple - Science is gender and person nonspecific and neutral and brutally so.. If you want to make the cut - you need to put adequate effort and not think that things will be handed to you. Science and Math does not allow 2+2 to be anything but 4 whoever you are. People want to be PC, not train children to understand the consequences of non performance and work through the schooling years and dump them into performing. Can you imagine that some students could get through JEE Mains with a zero and negative score ? How do you expect them to perform and simultaneously deny others who can do well ? This is incongruous and unacceptable and the results become obvious. There needs to be a realistic training manner and evaluation method. Help those who need it by providing socioeconomic milieu but do not compromise on evaluation. Doing that (compromising on evaluation) is actually doing them a disservice by pulling wool over their eyes whoever they may be.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 27 Sep 2015 21:55

I remember a time in KL when getting admission to Medical and Engg was a big deal. There were only a countable few and many would go to TN. Those who went to TN colleges were considered capitation fee students of poor quality. These were city or tier-3 town folks who spoke and wrote well in English.

What has happened since then is that with all manner of colleges open now, more rural folks from vernacular medium are also making it through. You may be seeing that lot for the paramedical courses. There are rural area English medium schools operating these days, where the kids cannot even speak or write decent English. Most are not exposed to anything beyond their school textbooks perhaps. The teachers themselves may be of poor quality and thing cascades down. Sad but true.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 27 Sep 2015 22:14

prasannasimha wrote:There needs to be a realistic training manner and evaluation method. Help those who need it by providing socioeconomic milieu but do not compromise on evaluation. Doing that (compromising on evaluation) is actually doing them a disservice by pulling wool over their eyes whoever they may be.

+100

Everyone gets a chance but reality is an unforgiving mofo. In job often your first mistake is your last, certainly this is true for my chosen profession. People need to learn this early in life.

Certainly a practicing Doctor or Engineer licensing standards need to be tightened. I don't now how it is in other states but in TN is is a major lacuna in how structural engineers are licensed. There is no engineers licensing exam and as soon as you graduate from college you can register to become a class-1, class-2 or class-3 licensed structural engineer. The only restriction is years of experience. Class-1, is zero experience, class-2 is 5-6 years and class-3 is 10-12 years. If you do PG these experience numbers are halved. So I have a class-3 structural license from TN, despite not sitting for any exam. Another problem is licenses last for 5 years and are excruciatingly slow to renew. The paperwork is minimal but bureaucracy is suffocating. Another problem is that the structural stability certificate does not technically require an engineer to stamp it but can be done by any 'competent person'. Many times contractors with years of experience get a surveyors stamp and stamp the building drawings. Think about that the next time you walk into any public building!

A proper national/state licensing exam should be required of all practicing engineers along with an internship program. And an annual ongoing study program w/ annual renewal should be required for engineers...
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VKumar wrote:what we need is better school education. All that is taught till class 8, if properly learnt, is enough for most employments. But parents and students seldom realize this and waste their efforts on 'higher education'. Post standard 8, education should be for a specific goal, like medicine, engineering, science, arts etc. After standard 8, students should be given a chance to study a vocational subject like cooking, plumbing, car repair, electrician, nursing, plant operation and after 2 years should be ready to become an apprentice in their field for another 2 years, after that they can become self employed or take up a job. This should be encouraged by government and all of us. No need to spend precious time and money on coaching classes.

I think you would have trouble getting people and companies to sign on. Years of study is necessary to mature the individual. Certainly no 8 year student is competent to be placed in any position of responsibility. And yes even installing a weld on a Hyundai Inova is a position of responsibility....

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 27 Sep 2015 22:17

I would be careful about those pass rates in KL. It suggests an abnormal situation if the persons are getting in based on some criteria like past performance and entrance tests. In WB it was notoriously difficult to get marks in various exams as a result of which they wouldn't be able to compete with students from other states specially from CBSE and ICSE boards. The teachers, education dept and govt used to take pride in the fact that students wouldn't get marks. That situation thankfully has changed perhaps in a bit extreme at the other end where getting 90% is no longer a big deal. I suspect a deep rooted systemic problem if the students are performing like that in KL and not that most are stupid.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 27 Sep 2015 22:19

The question is how does a person who cannot construct a sentence like "My name is XYZ" " score a first class/distinction in their 12th standard exam( I am very serious and not joking- On their first day in my class - I usually ask them to introduce themselves to get an idea about what "putty" I am getting to "mold") . I used to deal with only post doctoral level students and then when I had to start teaching undergraduate level courses - it was a culture shock and a big dose of reality regarding the quality of our educational system at the school level. Imagine - these students have to learn about things like alpha and pH stat management during deep hypothermia and circulatory arrest without knowing what pH is-I usually ask them what is the pH of water and 9/10 do not know the correct answer and to be honest many of my MCh students make a mistake with this question and some can parrot the definition without knowing what they are telling. I actually have to teach them the intricacies of variation of pH with temperature and its effects on the body ! You can understand a teachers plight in this situation. To their credit some students have managed to really put in effort and I am proud to say from failing have become distinction/rank holders in the final year and have moved on to have successful careers but this angst and pain in the starting could have been avoided.Others have simply buckled and given up which is sad. We can take a horse to the water but cannot make it drink.We can try to excite students but they must have an intrinsic will to learn too. It has become fashionable now to blame Teacher's for everything.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 27 Sep 2015 22:24

^^ Supratik - that used to be in the past - if you see the normalization pattern which are released by JEE you will see that this trend to give stupendous marks is there every where throughout India .Some states though have performed badly as reflected by subsequent performance in both JEE Mains/Advanced (for what it is worth) for eg Manipur seems to have low scores both in 12th standard and also selection in JEE (Mains) despite state quotas there. May be access to education is an issue there.
Another thing now is that there is a common syllabus now all over India for science subjects - for all state boards and CBSE so the argument (regarding the syllabus) no longer holds.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 27 Sep 2015 22:54

The common minimum syllabus is a good thing. Not having this used to give advantage to certain boards. Having done my high school under Karnataka board, I did find many topics were not covered at all in mathematics by the 10th std. I had never heard of trigonometry when I entered 11th i.e. PUC/PDC in those days. I was learning Trig as well as Calculus at the same time. Similarly KL had a weak syllabus for Phys/Chem at the PDC level, this would lead to poor preps for taking competitive exams when city kids would have better access. Not true anymore with internet etc.

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 27 Sep 2015 23:10

Mr. Theo Fidel, please read my post again. After std 8 I suggest 2 years of vocational training and education in field of choice followed by 2 years of internship / apprenticeship in the field of choice. Do you think such a trained welder could start as a trainee welder somewhere?