Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 23 May 2015 06:32

India doesn't collect anything . Rather, we prefer to give away most of our market to foreign airlines, hamstring our own private airlines by setting up stupid rules like 5/20 , and throw good money after bad upon a mismanaged state airline .

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 May 2015 08:07

The worst deal is for Malloostanis. Poor service, outrageous fares, extortion all round.
1. Air India from DXB to COK will go to Dilli, then go to TVM b4 going to COK - but tell passengers that they will go first to COK then TVM as any sane person would do, so that those coming to meet the passengers at COK are left standing there for 2 more hours.
2. Kingfisher used to have decent DXB - COK flights via BLR, but they are dead now.
3. Jet Air charges an arm and a leg for DXB-COK, and no decent return flights.

Air India has connecting flights with Delta, but no codeshare and no frequent flyer miles for the share.
If you buy the US-DXB segment and the DXB/COK segment separately, the geniuses in COK will try to force you to take out your baggage at DXB because they are too clueless to read their own policy that through-passengers are to have bags checked to final destination regardless of which itinerary they are on - the experts that they hire are barely able to type their own IDs into the computer.
So there is a reason why ppl prefer the foreign airlines, as bad as they can be and even paying 50% more: Air India etc are guaranteed to be worse, despite the lure of the relatively good food. Its like playing Russian Roulette with an AK-47 - they can think up myriad ways to surprise you with their Catch-22 messups.
Also, I think seat pitch and width are actually worse on Indian-run airlines than they are on any others that I have been on, except internal Japanese flights.
Jet Airways service is OK for internal flights, Kingfisher used to be quite good, though desk agents were somewhat clueless. Poor ppl did not get paid for months, then got laid off. Tragic.
I am waiting for Air Kerala to start up, at least they will corner the market on all the 3 items at the top. Probably have the AITUC run the Customer Service and have a Desk inside the plane where you can pay a charge for the privilege of putting your own bad in the overhead bin.

Kannan · Post by **Kannan** » 23 May 2015 22:05

I think what turned me off to Air India the most was that they really treated Indians like crap and waited hand and foot on the Westerners, at least when I last flew them a decade ago. I can get used to tourists/visitors getting better treatment, but come on, I don't want to give you a four figure amount to feel like I'm inconveniencing you

On top of that, I think they were 6 for 8 in losing my luggage.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 May 2015 15:45

BIAL airport was very chaotic on saturday night with cars needing to wait 30 mins to get a place to load or unload.

the big VIP driveway closest to terminal laid unused

the narrow taxi + pvt car driveway further out was half closed to due construction cranes working on the roof.

and foot passengers have to cross this to get to buses and parking lots.

clearly the lack of split level driveways one for arrival and one for drop was a bad decision to save costs. this is the norm worldwide incl in mumbai and delhi also.

since it cannot be fixed now given the terminal design
- passenger ramp escalators have to be put in to get to buses and parking lots
- the taxi loading area have to be 2 lines in a parallel not one line, again with ramp escalators
- the VIP driveway should be done away with in favour of another vip verandah somewhere to the side, there is NO NEED for a 500m long vip driveway with the cars and hangers on of the mantris and "high officials" spending time there for hours.

else the loud tom tomming of being india's #3 airport @ 15.5 mil is just noise....the next 15 mil are going to be hell unless they fix these and build a new T2 asap

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 May 2015 15:49

security processing is also outdated and becomes a huge mela even at 4am in morning with anxious people about to miss flights...clearly the manual frisking and slow X-raying of hand baggages does not scale. GOI need to get the amirkhan style room type full body scanners in bulk and deploy them to all our busiest airports.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 25 May 2015 19:06

Can the new terminal T2 have arrival and departure separation as part of the design ? Or are they going to carry on with the status quo. What about the second parallel runway. Is it sanctioned already ? Wasn't there some objection from Yelahanka side as the second runway will come on the south side of the approach road to the terminal.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 May 2015 20:03

T2 design and plans not revealed yet. it all depends on mercies of the airport owner. the VIPs are happy with their AC lounge, express checkin and dedicated driveway, they dont give a s*** for the common users.

the 2nd runway & T3 was not planned until T2 maxes out and total = 30 mil pax is breached. the land is there and lets say it will be just 1km from the 1st runway, but approach pattern might take it more over Yelehanka.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 May 2015 20:08

with completely retarded viewpoints like those expressed here , its anyone's guess where the ship will head
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/367 ... ready.html

the usual howls of reopen HAL , decongest itvity and send it to mangalore, hubli, mysore......

if the sun continues to rise in the east, it aint gonna happen and the growth of uber large urban centers will continue for decades.

mysore though may get its wish and blr will engulf it as part of the same metro by 2030..imagine the BDA and blr land sharks getting their claws into mysore

KJo may be displeased to hear that but its inevitable

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 25 May 2015 20:29

Singha wrote:T2 design and plans not revealed yet. it all depends on mercies of the airport owner. the VIPs are happy with their AC lounge, express checkin and dedicated driveway, they dont give a s*** for the common users.

the 2nd runway & T3 was not planned until T2 maxes out and total = 30 mil pax is breached. the land is there and lets say it will be just 1km from the 1st runway, but approach pattern might take it more over Yelehanka.

With how GVK is doing with its already huge debts, doubt it is too eager to develop T2 soon. It also has first right of refusal to Navi Mumbai airport but I doubt they will take up on it given its finances.

SSundar · Post by **SSundar** » 25 May 2015 21:47

sanjaykumar wrote:What are the economics of this? Does India collect rent? Why not build a world class airline?.....oh yeah, this is India.

It is not easy to build a world class airline out of India. Geography is against us and so is customer behavior, not to mention government policies. Strategy seems to be an alien word to our airlines as well.

* The Gulf and Euro airlines are best positioned to execute "Scissor Hub" operations to consolidate Indians, Pakis, Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans into a hub and carry them profitably along with other passengers into rest of Europe, Africa and the Americas. For an Indian airline to compete with them, we need airports that are built with "Scissor Hub" operations in mind. Our metros are at best jugaad for transferring traffic.

* India's airlines have to zoom in on a hub and execute well-timed spoke operations from that hub. None of India's airlines are willing to do that. Air India, Jet, etc. are operating out of both Delhi and Mumbai and spreading themselves thin with International operations from other cities as well. They have to kinda "collude" and consolidate at one hub each. Even Kingfisher, when it was centered out of Bangalore, tried to dip into the same Mumbai/Delhi pie for North America flights. So, they will all end up killing each other.

* On the flip side, all airlines that started International operations piled up on the same old JFK, Newark & Heathrow traffic.

* Until the Dreamliner and A350 debuted, there were no economically viable aircraft that could go non-stop from an Indian hub to most North American cities. The wait lists for dreamliners and A350s are long. India's airlines would only get them well after the Gulf and Euro biggies get them and press them in operation in smaller Indian and international cities first.

* Business traffic is what runs an airline profitably. The entire economy class often does not pay for the cost of operating the flight. The few guys up in business class bridge the gap tremendously. The business traffic is very loyal to frequent flyer programs and perks. India's airlines that are not part of any global alliance will not be on the radar of most business travelers.

* The Indian consumer would rather hub at a Euro or Gulf airport where they can buy up duty-free goods on the way back into the country than in an Indian hub. Even if this were to change, please see the earlier point about airports not being built as hubs in a planned manner.

* No need to mention government policies supporting Air India, forcing airlines to operate non-profitable routes and not privatizing or approving new airports fast enough. The UPA government pissed off most global airline alliances by trying to force them to accommodate Air India. The "ban" on the A380 did not help either.

Basically, a lot needs to be done to keep the Indian passenger on Indian airlines. It is far easier to do nothing and let the Gulf airlines take over. The Gulf airlines are killing the European ones slowly anyway.

KLP Dubey · Post by **KLP Dubey** » 26 May 2015 12:13

UlanBatori wrote:The worst deal is for Malloostanis. Poor service, outrageous fares, extortion all round.
1. Air India from DXB to COK will go to Dilli, then go to TVM b4 going to COK - but tell passengers that they will go first to COK then TVM as any sane person would do, so that those coming to meet the passengers at COK are left standing there for 2 more hours.
2. Kingfisher used to have decent DXB - COK flights via BLR, but they are dead now.
3. Jet Air charges an arm and a leg for DXB-COK, and no decent return flights.

Depends on how you look at it. Rather than transiting through Arab countries or flying on Arab airlines, the far better option for you is to fly comfortably on Delta/AF/KLM to BOM or BLR, get a good night's sleep in a decent hotel near the airport, and take a non-Air-India flight out to TVM or COK the next morning/early afternoon. I have done it innumerable times and always arrived in Gawd's country in a relaxed state. It costs the same (or less) than the options you mention above, not to mention the miles you rack up on Delta.....

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 26 May 2015 16:39

Why would one want to fly Delta/AF/BA (ok KLM is slightly better) and then fly to BOM/BLR unless one has business to do there, when one can fly straight to home in 22hrs with just a one-hour halt in ME. How does it matter to aam aadmi who is getting you home fastest for the same or actually lesser cost. Try getting a hotel in Blur, one has to pay more than a Hilton in USA for average or even below par service. All these works for those who have relatives to visit or stay with in these two cities and I have done both. Just getting in and out to B'lur airport will cost you a day. Once I decided to stay close to the airport on the way back in a hotel. Yes there are places hidden in 'resorts' nearby. None of the relatives or friends wanted to drive up north to meet up...everyone had better things to do than spend a whole day to see us.

KLP Dubey · Post by **KLP Dubey** » 26 May 2015 21:30

Bade wrote:Why would one want to fly Delta/AF/BA (ok KLM is slightly better) and then fly to BOM/BLR unless one has business to do there, when one can fly straight to home in 22hrs with just a one-hour halt in ME.

That's what the Mongolian posted about - there is a lack of good options for flying "directly" to Kerala from the USA through the middle east...at least if you are originating from the world's busiest airport. It is a completely disorganized setup. Yes you would want to get home in 22 hrs if there is a rush or emergency, in which case you pay and do what it takes. Otherwise it is much better to take the other route, as I do routinely. There is no shortage of transit hotels in BOM and these days in BLR either. Like I said, try doing the math and you find that the cost works out to be less or same than trying to find a hassle-free connection through DXB.

The broader fact is that helping US-based NRIs to get to KL fast is not a priority for western airlines, but personally I would not fly an Arab airline unless I had no choice. Different strokes....

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 26 May 2015 21:38

I gave up all my accumulated miles on Emirates and now fly only Singapore/Asiana/Cathay east asian airlines. After knowing how they treat Indians in Dubai and ME, its kind of hard to use them.

Abhay_S · Post by **Abhay_S** » 26 May 2015 21:43

Some of us 'IT coolies' have no option but to use ME airlines since euros require a transit VISA if ur US Visa is not stampped or u r on EAD. not sure why this rule changed but its been a boon to the ME airlines.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 26 May 2015 21:48

From the US east coast cities there are nice options with just a one-stop direct to KL (Tvm, Kochi, Kozhikode) via the middle east with fares during off-season as low as $1100. I got that as recently as late last year. If one is making choices based on any other criterion, then it is just a personal one. I see no point in spending $100 to cool heels in B'lur and another $50 for taxi ride itself and wasting my 12 hours each way for a short 10-day vacation, unless I have something to do in B'lur.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 27 May 2015 12:38

Fly emirates or one of the other doobai airlines and get home in 22 hrs. Even dera malloostan has direct to gelf connections no? What is the problem? Don't want to fly to doobai?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 May 2015 19:17

May 23 a Singapore to shanghai a330 flight lost both engines in a storm.
The pilot managed to relight one at least after gliding down below the storm.
A case has been raised with rolls Royce why?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 27 May 2015 20:30

Extremely scary episode. The modern day twinjet revolution is built on the back of ETOPS (Extended Twin-engine Operations, also known as Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim) doctrine. They implement substantial redundancy in the engine control systems such that a failure in one engine still keeps the other running. Planes are certified ETOPS-xxx, where the xxx is a number in minutes, that the plane is certified to be able to fly on a single engine. The A330 was the first aircraft to be certified for ETOPS-240 operations, meaning it could reliably fly 4hrs after losing one engine. But losing both engines ? That's the nightmare situation for twinjets, whose popularity owes itself to the gains in engine reliability that drove ETOPS. SIA and RR will have a lot of digging to do here, and a lot of people will be watching.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 27 May 2015 20:34

But with round the clock weather updates and reliable modeling why fly into storms in the first place.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 27 May 2015 20:49

Expect questions of Sia. They've had the A380 with a blown engine. Now this.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 May 2015 11:00

incidentally it was one of the flight tracking sites that released detailed info on this wardrobe malfunction. SG govt would have likely wanted to handle it more quietly...there are not less than 2000 heavy twin jets on order between 787, a330, a350, 777 and 1000s of smaller ones like a321neo, 737, embraer, bombardier, dassault......everyone has skin in the game.

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-singap ... 15-5"These engines are designed to

shut down if they have severe problems," experienced A330 pilot Karlene Petitt told Business Insider in an email. "Good news is they are also designed to auto-restart."

Although she has never experienced a "dual flameout" in an A330, Petitt believes the "bad weather" may have caused an engine glitch.

According to pilot and author Patrick Smith, the loss of both engines is exceptionally rare.

"One possibility is that the engines succumbed to ice ingestion —perhaps the ingestion of high-altitude ice crystals," Smith wrote in an email to Business Insider. "Of course, jet engines are equipped with sophisticated anti-icing systems, so this would have to have been something unusual. If indeed that was the culprit. Everything at this point is speculation."

The incident, which took place just south of Hong Kong, caused the airliner to descend 13,000 feet before the crew was able to restart the engines.

The Airbus jet — registration number 9V-SSF — landed safely in Shanghai an hour and a half later.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 May 2015 11:02

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 May 2015 11:26

^^ No news and screaming headlines of this anywhere? Is it because of the SIA/Airbus media friendly image?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 May 2015 12:01

from reports it appears like no emergency was declared to the passengers and the glide was gentler than the ascent....so with both engines gone, the batteries must have powered all avionics, hydraulic actuators, HVAC, water pumps and even the entertainment system and food heaters. pretty powerful batteries for sure.

the long endless sailplane type wings of the a330 probably generates a lot of lift even in the thin air and saved the bacon this time...and whoever designed the automatic relighter system of course.

a sea landing , in shallow bay, close to shore after alerting the chinese coast guard would have been planB....not a pretty sight for sure.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 May 2015 12:04

yak herder will soon be around with CTs I expect...could be part of the same SPECTER/HYDRA ops to rattle the bars of the cage and force SIA/SG to silently pay up. someone with hacking controls could be running a shakedown racket on all airlines and govts worldwide , while punishing those who refuse hafta with a crash or two.

or like the joker, could be completely apeshit insane and randomly 'just does things' without a overall plan.

or like Bane, believe airlines are tools for the rich to control the poor and access luxuries and got to be brought down.

the number of people slightly batnuts out there but totally sober and capable in tech terms must be tens of 1000s...a good chunk of brf for instance

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 28 May 2015 16:53

^^^ This sort of thing can legitimately happen. The RAM air turbines certainly came into play. And the craft decided to continue on to china after relight. This continuing on may be called into question re SIA.
Not much more. If it were just one engine, no one would have known about it.

The rest seems purely a consequences of the poor weather T the time.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 May 2015 17:41

since both engines are identical and there is some algorithm that decides when a engine should shut down mid air, wouldnt even a 4 engine bird flying through adverse conditions experience loss of all 4 engines.

methinks in the old days these algorithms were not there and the engines would plough on regardless, but new age SW smartness and desired to extend engine life/UI fetish might have brought them in.

Malayia airlines has been put out of business and is selling off all of its long haul fleet as fast as it can.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 28 May 2015 17:44

^^ 4 engine planes too have had all engines fail. it may have been a while ago. depends on why the enfines shut down. smoke from a volcano? no fault of the engine. same re. some storms.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 May 2015 22:19

two cases of 4 engine fails
superb job by captain and crew
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLM_Flight_867

plenty of cases .... enough to cause more worry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ai ... ed_gliding

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 29 May 2015 01:37

Singha wrote:two cases of 4 engine fails
superb job by captain and crew
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLM_Flight_867

Yes, but that was due to Volcanic ash and the problem wasn't well known at the time. They close the affected airspace now after volcanic eruptions.

This Singapore Airlines incident is scary because it was only passing through a run-of-the mill storm, something which will happen far more frequently.

There was an incident in 2008 of a BA 777 (flight 38) losing power in both engines (RR again). They were on approach and didn't have much time or altitude. Ended up crash landing just short of the runway. Luckily, no one died.
That one was due to a design flaw in the RR Fuel-Oil heat exchanger which clogged up due to ice crystals in the fuel.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 30 May 2015 15:25

Suraj wrote:India doesn't collect anything . Rather, we prefer to give away most of our market to foreign airlines, hamstring our own private airlines by setting up stupid rules like 5/20 , and throw good money after bad upon a mismanaged state airline .

New rules for home carriers to fly global on the cards: Mahesh Sharma

Sharma’s comments come close on the heels of the civil aviation ministry firming up a formula — domestic airlines would have to earn credits by deploying capacity on domestic routes and trade them for international flying rights – to replace the 5/20 norm.

The new formula, designed to encourage long-haul operations, stipulate that a new airline will be allowed to operate on international routes, which are less than 6 hours away, with 600 domestic flying credits (DFCs) and will require to earn 300 DFCs to fly on routes beyond six-hour. A senior official in the Ministry of Civil Aviation had explained, “We have raised the eligibility criteria for flying on mid-haul routes so as not to divert traffic to hubs in West Asia and South-east Asia. Airlines will be encouraged to operate long-haul international flights.”

Facebook wrote:DDNewsLive
1 hr ·

केंद्रीय नागर विमानन मंत्री अशोक गजपति राजूः अंतरराष्ट्रीय उड़ाने के लिए पांच वर्षों का अनुभव और 20 विमानों का नियम आधारहीन

Union civil aviation Minister Ashok gajpati raju: five years experience and 20 aircraft rules to fly international routes baseless.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Jun 2015 20:20

MS-21 programme status

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 12 Jun 2015 10:14

Have posted a note in Internal Security thread as well. But with some Malayalam media even reporting that the International Aviation Authorities may even cancel the "International" status for the Karippur/Kozhikode International Airport. This was after the Airport Fire Brigade staff man handled a CISF jawan doing the security checks, which led to weapons being drawn and death of another CISF jawan. The Airport Fire Brigade then parked the vehicles on the runway, which is said to be a serious violation of international flight safety norms.
Airport attack: ADGP report says no breach of security
Police probe begins in Kozhikode airport shooting
Fire Brigade staff handled man-handled CISF jawan first (Mathrubhumi:Malayalam)
PS: A poor smuggler/carrier carrying gold found himself getting caught, after his flight scheduled to land at Kozhikode was rerouted to Cochin

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Jun 2015 10:22

nachiket wrote:
Singha wrote:two cases of 4 engine fails
superb job by captain and crew
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLM_Flight_867

Yes, but that was due to Volcanic ash and the problem wasn't well known at the time. They close the affected airspace now after volcanic eruptions.

This Singapore Airlines incident is scary because it was only passing through a run-of-the mill storm, something which will happen far more frequently.

There was an incident in 2008 of a BA 777 (flight 38) losing power in both engines (RR again). They were on approach and didn't have much time or altitude. Ended up crash landing just short of the runway. Luckily, no one died.
That one was due to a design flaw in the RR Fuel-Oil heat exchanger which clogged up due to ice crystals in the fuel.

There is not supposed to be ice crystals in the fuel. The bottom of the tank where water may collect if present, is drained regularly through a drain valves specially designed for the purpose and the fuel being taken on board is checked visually ( usually using some chemical paste), confirmed by the engg crew as being water free before the fuel is actually taken on board.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jun 2015 10:47

MAS was already in process of selling off its long range jets and becoming a small regional airline , but this further incident will no doubt lend new wings to that project.

.....

MELBOURNE, Australia — A Malaysia Airlines passenger jet has made an emergency landing at Melbourne airport after a reported engine fire.

Airport spokeswoman Anna Gillett says Flight 148 from Melbourne to Kuala Lumpur landed without incident or injury on Friday.

Gillett could not confirm media reports that the Airbus A380 returned to Melbourne because of an engine fire.

She says the pilot had called in an emergency landing and that emergency service personnel had attended.

Sky News reported that the plane had dumped fuel before landing.

srin · Post by **srin** » 12 Jun 2015 12:39

chetak wrote:
nachiket wrote: Yes, but that was due to Volcanic ash and the problem wasn't well known at the time. They close the affected airspace now after volcanic eruptions.

This Singapore Airlines incident is scary because it was only passing through a run-of-the mill storm, something which will happen far more frequently.

There was an incident in 2008 of a BA 777 (flight 38) losing power in both engines (RR again). They were on approach and didn't have much time or altitude. Ended up crash landing just short of the runway. Luckily, no one died.
That one was due to a design flaw in the RR Fuel-Oil heat exchanger which clogged up due to ice crystals in the fuel.
There is not supposed to be ice crystals in the fuel. The bottom of the tank where water may collect if present, is drained regularly through a drain valves specially designed for the purpose and the fuel being taken on board is checked visually ( usually using some chemical paste), confirmed by the engg crew as being water free before the fuel is actually taken on board.

Here's the Air crash investigation episode for BA Flight 38

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 18 Jun 2015 19:20

Latest stats by AAI

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jun 2015 19:35

Confirmation that bial has hugely left hyd and Chennai behind.
And Guwahati is ahead of Jaipur,Bhubaneswar,Lucknow. The situation in UP is evident from Lucknow not in top tier

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 18 Jun 2015 20:44

nawabs: do you have such stats for international passengers too ?