Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 11 Aug 2015 20:23

Airports by profit. Small ones are suffering.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 Aug 2015 01:27

Kolkata could be making like 5-7 times as much if it were privatized !

AAI sucks big times in CCU Netaji Subhash

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 13 Aug 2015 19:50

Kolkata and Chennai ariports are not going to be privatized due to political opposition from states.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 13 Aug 2015 20:25

Actually no. All parties want to privatize Chennai but AAI and it militant union is staunchly opposed. Looking at the profit chart you can see why. It is the golden goose they squeezing for every dime.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 13 Aug 2015 20:37

Ok but Kolkata is due to Mamata's opposition according to the report. Sad for Kolkata as it had the potential to transform the area. If Chennai has no political opposition they should just ram it through.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 13 Aug 2015 20:54

Also the Chennai revenues look absurd as compared to other profit-making cities. What makes it possible for Chennai to have 10X revenues or is it a typo?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 13 Aug 2015 22:55

Heavy UDF on international passengers.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2015 08:37

the traffic at an airport is driven by the overall business situation in its area, not just by how great it is.

we all know how the industrial might of chennai basin compares to the sickness and failure of west bengal industrial sector. you ask any captain of industry domestic or foreign which state they would never consider investing and WB tops the list.

infact entire eastern india is sick and has led to internal displacement of 100s of millions of people to N,S,W just to survive. you go to some remote beach resort in goa and you will find security guards from bihar and assam, cooks from orissa and nepal, handymen and waiters from UP ...

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 Aug 2015 15:12

Commercial viability of airports is linked to viability of air travel. Of course, a commercially thriving city will attract a lot more travellers. But even in BIMARU states, people have to travel. the question is whether air travel is cheap enough.

The big variable there is cost of aviation fuel, taxed to hell by state governments. If that is licked, traffic in airports will go up automatically.

Most Indian airports look quite good these days, including Calcutta. T2, T3 and Bangalore are world class, Hyderabad close to that.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 15 Aug 2015 04:56

Chopper purchase plan for Northeast

New Delhi, Aug. 14: The ministry of civil aviation will buy more high-altitude choppers for Pawan Hans Helicopters Limited to operate in Arunachal Pradesh and other parts of the Northeast.

The announcement by minister of state Mahesh Sharma comes more than a week after the death of a bureaucrat and two pilots in a Dauphin chopper crash in Arunachal's Tirap district.

"Today we have taken an in-principle decision to procure more helicopters that can operate in high altitude and difficult terrain," he said.

"Initially suspicions of foul play were expressed over the crash, as the government has signed the peace agreement with the NSCN(IM). But now that has been ruled out. The cause will be clear once the black box is retrieved."

Sharma, however, refused to specify which choppers were being considered.

The armed forces currently use Cheetah, Chetak, Cheetal and the Russian Mi-17 V5 choppers in high altitude areas. Russian Kamov 226, European Ecureuil Fennec and American Bell 407 are in competition for defence contracts.

The minister added that a helicopter hub had been developed in Guwahati to serve the entire region. The existing fleet of six choppers there would be increased.

"We do not want to make money from the helicopter services. We want to make profits from tourism," he said.

Sharma denied rumours that Bagdogra airport would be shifted to Purnea. He said the Pakyong airport project in Sikkim was behind schedule because of various problems, including land acquisition.

If the Russians can start their KA-226 plant quickly under Make in India, they can easily sell hundreds of helicopters in the civil sector, in adition to the 200 for the military.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 15 Aug 2015 08:08

somnath wrote:Commercial viability of airports is linked to viability of air travel. Of course, a commercially thriving city will attract a lot more travellers. But even in BIMARU states, people have to travel. the question is whether air travel is cheap enough.

The big variable there is cost of aviation fuel, taxed to hell by state governments. If that is licked, traffic in airports will go up automatically.

Most Indian airports look quite good these days, including Calcutta. T2, T3 and Bangalore are world class, Hyderabad close to that.

Yup. 6 airports, 1 per 200 million people. And quite good is still not the quality that Hong Kong was what 30 years ago? Lets not get ahead of ourselves. Airports are not mausoleums, a marvel of size or architecture. In function -- pick up/drop off, sanitation, customs and cargo, ramps, elevators and assistive services, bad weather handling, hubs and international services, and the general demeanor of power or service -- these are all only minimally improved for their size. At lower volumes, the biggest hassle was always the governmand. On the furrin plane, service actually was better then than it is now.

Great, if you know what you are doing but screwed if you are a bumbling middle aged korean with broken english. Isnt that related to viability? And nearly all of the profitable/meaningful function comes from furrin carriers. Wonder why aviation fuel is taxed like hell? Because all the other revenue is simply going out.

The main approach even at these 6 is unquestionably "we are like this onlee, so now how can we pretend to get around this?". They need to be treated like the gateways to the nation. And they currently arent. Functioning buildings, especially in a growing maturing sector need constant improvement. Not a wipe down with a dirty cloth when a glass pane falls down or the baggage floods.

And there is still a stand around idle culture. change that. Check how many people are just standing around? Give them a basket of dry dates, have them pass it around. Ever looked at the hand written IDs? Laminated. Secure? Amount of stuff "out of service",never commissioned, or just plain bad quality? Gold fingers and buddha sculptures dont make these a taj mahal. Its a dam, it needs to hold and release water. Properly. And the fish ought not need a hand holder at every step.

There is a strong disconnect between transit and air transport. The two are never in sync. There is a huge problem of dependency on furrin carriers == all flights at night.

BTW, I will eggs-pear-inch air parasite again courtesy a furrin airline screw up (forchunately no bags to check, non stop, and craft of recent vintage, just the ugly shahi paneer curry interior to face one hopes in the short hop part of a long long two days). Lets see how lousy they still are (by all published accounts, terrible as ever).

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 15 Aug 2015 12:47

As a frequent flyer, I would say that there are 5 important variables in an airport:

1. Check in counters, how many and how quickly, incl security
2. Quality of toilets
3. Immigration speed, for international flights
4. Speed of exit from the aircraft to the gate
5. Access to the city

Quality of shoppig areas, lounges etc are externalities.

Using the above, T3 is very very good - I would rate it at par with Changi and Incheon. Better than suvarnabhoomi or KL.

Bangalore isn't bad either, especially with the expressway now up and running.

T2 again is as good as most in Asia, it's got the shortest commute of any airport to the CBD, in BKC.

In terms of the frills too, our airports are pretty good, even by high Asian standards

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 15 Aug 2015 13:05

Also add number of aero bridges and system of announcements...domestic is still short changed in India. Mumbai airport has stopped all announcements inspite of frequent gate changes.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 15 Aug 2015 13:44

^^a lot of airports are "silent" airports, nothing too bad, signages in Mumbai are pretty good.

Aero bridges - yes, part of the system to exit from the aircraft to the exit gate

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 15 Aug 2015 14:09

Silent airports are becoming increasingly common, yes. But that typically means airport-wide announcements are replaced by gate-specific ones, ie announcements specific to a gate are made in the vicinity of that gate. Mumbai has eliminated even the latter.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 15 Aug 2015 14:16

somnath wrote:As a frequent flyer, I would say that there are 5 important variables in an airport:

1. Check in counters, how many and how quickly, incl security
2. Quality of toilets
3. Immigration speed, for international flights
4. Speed of exit from the aircraft to the gate
5. Access to the city

Quality of shoppig areas, lounges etc are externalities.

Using the above, T3 is very very good - I would rate it at par with Changi and Incheon. Better than suvarnabhoomi or KL.

Bangalore isn't bad either, especially with the expressway now up and running.

T2 again is as good as most in Asia, it's got the shortest commute of any airport to the CBD, in BKC.

In terms of the frills too, our airports are pretty good, even by high Asian standards

somnath,

T3 does not compare with Changi in the "soft product" areas. I havent been to incheon in over 10 years but recall better facilities. BKK/KL are unknown quantities to me. T3 is no FRA or Changi. And even HKG continues to build and improve. T3 wont do anything more until its back to old T2 quality.

For background, I rarely fly now. But my total accumulated mileage is surely in 7+ digits with 6+ digits documented with each of the three major alliances. Which would also mean I have seen my Laguardias in great details. And the JFKs and Logans when they were dug up. And the DEL, BLR, SJC or BWI or WAS when they were plittle more than small airstrips. I say this, just to emphasize that I attach no particular pride to the appearance. However lack of function is a disappointment that still rankles.

A part of your impression is surely knowing how to navigate to T3 and through T3, but running into these same hurdles at changi or incheon. I admitted this up front, its great if you know the language, fit with crowd and both know and are able to go where you want.

As a concrete example, I do not use any assistance in furrin airports, even if wheeling ultra long distances between terminals. T3 is not built to a quality to do that despite its small size. I wouldnt be able to get out the door without help. Its simply not expected or designed to function that way -- gates and their slopes, fellow passenger attitudes, lack of elevators, short cuts. All contribute to make it inaccessible. Have allergies to dust? You are in for a treat with that carpet.

And where in Changi or incheon would you see the throng that is the passanger receiving area? Even though it is accepted and expected that every high value tourist and all international expats have someone picking them up. Does it look like there was any attention paid to the number of people and vehicles that would be picking up and attending to visitors? Or our culture of rushing the cordon?

Finally, how often is the customs doing its job? The good old X ray machine by the green channel? Isnt it time to accept that something that has been x-rayed more than once getting to you isnt going to change the national gdp if scanned once more. In this day and age how much can you carry on? Or do it before immigration, or do it for transiting passangers. But at the door? Random stranger with no id coming and grabbing your bag, till you realise he gets to X-ray once more?

On to immigration, is there any lrder to what counters open when? Other than being spread scattered without signage, some open and some not. Its not the 4 counters of old. But it isnt orderly by any chance. In the recent visit, I was wheeled to one counter, then waited while the babu sat idly not making it apparent that he wasnt open. Then wheeled to a different line, back of the queue. Here an argument over validity of documents was in full flow, with half the party accompanying the assisted guest cleared and the assisted party being questioned, from across the yellow line where you must wait. Surely, not wanting to imitate the US wardens here?

In terms of access to the city -- hour of the day AND whether you are from DEL make an unacceptable difference. Or you could stay at the Leela and be comfortable. Those are the choices.

Its no good pretending that size alone will make DEL into a global hub. Yes, like all things transport -- road, rail, or air -- DEL will be crowded. Just because there is no lack of people.

In terms of travel comfort, imitation will only take you so far.

Akshay D · Post by **Akshay D** » 15 Aug 2015 14:19

That is incorrect. I flew out of Mumbai today and there were multiple gate announcements for a 9W gate change. They also had their ground staff walking around and asking people if they were waiting for that flight. Just a note.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 15 Aug 2015 14:29

Akshay D wrote:That is incorrect. I flew out of Mumbai today and there were multiple gate announcements for a 9W gate change. They also had their ground staff walking around and asking people if they were waiting for that flight. Just a note.

Perhaps depends on which Terminal. The Terminal I flew out of a week or so back definitely did not have any. Also there are press articles you can google of Mumbai airport going "silent".

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 15 Aug 2015 17:29

Shreeman wrote:A part of your impression is surely knowing how to navigate to T3 and through T3, but running into these same hurdles at changi or incheon. I admitted this up front, its great if you know the language, fit with crowd and both know and are able to go where you want.

Shreeman, I think you are being somewhat uncharitable to T3. I have lived in Singapore, Mumbai and Delhi, and travel quite extensveily within India and across East Asia. If you evaluate T3,

One, its not small -bigger than T5 in Heathrow (I think even T2/Changi).
Two, the distance from the bridge-gate to exit is one of the shortest in Asia - far better than HK, Suvarnabhoomi, Incheon, Shanghai, Beijing - all of these places have marathon walks.
Three, Immigration all over India is lightning quick - its at par with HK, better than Beijing, Shanghai, Bangkok (the last is the worst - that huge airport has a 1000 sq feet immigration hall!).
Four, the airport express in T3 takes you straight in the heart of Delhi's CBD, either CP or Gurgaon, both in less than 20 min. The maglev in Shanghai drops you in the middle of nowhere. The one in Changi takes 30 min to Raffles station.

Yes, the carpet is not ideal - I dont know why they did that. And the X-ray machine in the Green Channel is the only remaining anachronism in Indian airports - again not sure why they have it still.

the Mumbai airport is operating through multiple terminals still - T2 for international, and there are two terminals on domestic (one for Air India and another one for the private airlines). Its a bit messy, but T2 is great (and visually the most aesthetic airport I have seen, outside of Dubai). And as I said before, it takes only 15 min to reach BKC - the shortest drive of any airport to the CBD. Once they integrate the terminal it would be outstanding.

Arjun, the Mumbai airport is "silent". But there are enough airline staff going around with departure nudges all the time. Have never faced a problem.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 15 Aug 2015 17:52

somnath wrote:
Shreeman wrote:A part of your impression is surely knowing how to navigate to T3 and through T3, but running into these same hurdles at changi or incheon. I admitted this up front, its great if you know the language, fit with crowd and both know and are able to go where you want.
Shreeman, I think you are being somewhat uncharitable to T3. I have lived in Singapore, Mumbai and Delhi, and travel quite extensveily within India and across East Asia. If you evaluate T3,

One, its not small -bigger than T5 in Heathrow (I think even T2/Changi).
Two, the distance from the bridge-gate to exit is one of the shortest in Asia - far better than HK, Suvarnabhoomi, Incheon, Shanghai, Beijing - all of these places have marathon walks.
Three, Immigration all over India is lightning quick - its at par with HK, better than Beijing, Shanghai, Bangkok (the last is the worst - that huge airport has a 1000 sq feet immigration hall!).
Four, the airport express in T3 takes you straight in the heart of Delhi's CBD, either CP or Gurgaon, both in less than 20 min. The maglev in Shanghai drops you in the middle of nowhere. The one in Changi takes 30 min to Raffles station.

Yes, the carpet is not ideal - I dont know why they did that. And the X-ray machine in the Green Channel is the only remaining anachronism in Indian airports - again not sure why they have it still.

the Mumbai airport is operating through multiple terminals still - T2 for international, and there are two terminals on domestic (one for Air India and another one for the private airlines). Its a bit messy, but T2 is great (and visually the most aesthetic airport I have seen, outside of Dubai). And as I said before, it takes only 15 min to reach BKC - the shortest drive of any airport to the CBD. Once they integrate the terminal it would be outstanding.

Arjun, the Mumbai airport is "silent". But there are enough airline staff going around with departure nudges all the time. Have never faced a problem.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 15 Aug 2015 20:39

somnath wrote:
Shreeman wrote:A part of your impression is surely knowing how to navigate to T3 and through T3, but running into these same hurdles at changi or incheon. I admitted this up front, its great if you know the language, fit with crowd and both know and are able to go where you want.
Shreeman, I think you are being somewhat uncharitable to T3. I have lived in Singapore, Mumbai and Delhi, and travel quite extensveily within India and across East Asia. If you evaluate T3,

One, its not small -bigger than T5 in Heathrow (I think even T2/Changi).
Two, the distance from the bridge-gate to exit is one of the shortest in Asia - far better than HK, Suvarnabhoomi, Incheon, Shanghai, Beijing - all of these places have marathon walks.
Three, Immigration all over India is lightning quick - its at par with HK, better than Beijing, Shanghai, Bangkok (the last is the worst - that huge airport has a 1000 sq feet immigration hall!).
Four, the airport express in T3 takes you straight in the heart of Delhi's CBD, either CP or Gurgaon, both in less than 20 min. The maglev in Shanghai drops you in the middle of nowhere. The one in Changi takes 30 min to Raffles station.

Yes, the carpet is not ideal - I dont know why they did that. And the X-ray machine in the Green Channel is the only remaining anachronism in Indian airports - again not sure why they have it still.

the Mumbai airport is operating through multiple terminals still - T2 for international, and there are two terminals on domestic (one for Air India and another one for the private airlines). Its a bit messy, but T2 is great (and visually the most aesthetic airport I have seen, outside of Dubai). And as I said before, it takes only 15 min to reach BKC - the shortest drive of any airport to the CBD. Once they integrate the terminal it would be outstanding.

Arjun, the Mumbai airport is "silent". But there are enough airline staff going around with departure nudges all the time. Have never faced a problem.

somnath,

Yes. I am posting a critique. I would have pointed out all these problems you note in other airports as well. By the way, no the metro to gurgaon is not an airport express. Not that I am aware of. That is cannaught place only. You cant take the metro to the airport from gurgaon yet, not easily with luggage anyway.

Again, we acknowledge the existing issues -- carpet, "pocha", X-ray, customs -- in hopes that they might be addressed. And who knows they might install a light that turns green when an immigration window is open. None of this is expensive or hard.

Did I mention that I go out of my way to avoid LHR? Flying around the other way if the continent is not accessible and no direct flights are handy. Because its less of an airport and more a royal cluster$$@#%. They have a habit of abandoning assisted customers in the middle of a transit, or caging them in pens with doors of their trolleys, i kid you not, locked. You can forget your lounge access, all the while the traveller is shouting "my flight to tel aviv is leaving" and nobody bothers. And you cant complain to anyone. Whats more, nearly every such assistant appears to be subcontinental AND is just standing around. Doing el-naughto. LHR is no model to emulate. AirHindia does an excellent imitation of BA ground service. Lets not hope so badly for DEL.

I would like to be able to get, on my own, in and out of the airport. Sadly, thats not happening in DEL yet. The airport is nothing to be ashamed of, but it is also not time to sit on your hands either. A continuous revitalization (what might be better termed refurbishment) is necessary if we do not want to see it degrade to archeological society standards.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 15 Aug 2015 20:43

somnath wrote:And the X-ray machine in the Green Channel is the only remaining anachronism in Indian airports - again not sure why they have it still.

Gold.
-------------------------------

All modern materials have a life span. In high traffic area's, carpet lifespan is 5 years. Even T3 materials will be exceeding lifespan in 10 years and will need complete over haul and replacement of all materials in 20 years.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 15 Aug 2015 21:58

Shreeman

You are right, the airport express is to CP only. It's very good - generally ask the car to wait at Shivaji Stadium, and I am in my office in CP in 30 min flat! I don't know why more people don't use the service.

Anyways, you are right - it isn't perfect. I was only making the point that many of the Asian peers aren't either.

Theo, the carpet in T3 is a bad choice - it's quite thick, reduces the speed of trolleys and trolley luggage, and invariably traps dust, even when they vacuum it frequently. I am not sure why they chose such a thick carpet - most airports have naked granite or a very thin carpet coating.

Btw, I went to Hyd recently - again the airport is quite good. It was the first pvt sector airport to kick off, and is very nice. Lots of check in counters, security counters, lovely short walk to the gates. And a delightful PVNR elevated expressway from the city.

The person to be thanked for most of the pvt airports is Praful Patel - he doggedly pushed these through.

The worst new airport today has to be Goa. A monstrous steel and glass building, already leaking, small dirty toilets, long walks to the gates, pathetic lounge. It makes me long for the old terminal. Money really badly spent

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Aug 2015 11:35

Goa terminal vertical design had to do with lack of land I think. The apron for planes is small.

In Delhi there is no metro from the palam side lcc terminals where presumably the biggest airline indigo operates. A bus drops u one stn after t3 but really it's easier nd faster to take a taxi

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Aug 2015 14:21

Indonesian airplane with 54 on board missing in Papua region - officials

http://www.rt.com/news/312571-indonesia ... ing-papua/

Rohit_K · Post by **Rohit_K** » 17 Aug 2015 06:39

Shreeman wrote:By the way, no the metro to gurgaon is not an airport express. Not that I am aware of. That is cannaught place only.

somnath wrote:You are right, the airport express is to CP only. It's very good - generally ask the car to wait at Shivaji Stadium, and I am in my office in CP in 30 min flat! I don't know why more people don't use the service.

The northern terminal of the Airport Express is at the New Delhi Railway station from where many people arriving via the IR take the train to the airport. Shivaji Stadium (CP area) is the stop right before it.

Somnath ji,

More people are using the service. The Metro Rail Guy recently ran a post on how the DMRC generated a YoY increase of 56% in ridership after taking over from Reliance: http://themetrorailguy.com/2015/07/13/d ... hows-sign/

OT: Here's a nice virtual tour of the Airport Express for those who haven't been on it:
http://themetrorailguy.com/2015/07/22/v ... ne-trains/

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 17 Aug 2015 10:38

For Gurgaon,

There is the wonderful saga of a)Dwarka bypass, b)Airport Express extension, and c)The regular metro line to dwarka extension. Three wonderful soap operas that leave you to the mercy of highway 8? (if thats the number of delhi-jaipur expressway). The roads and exits in gurgaon are manned by dozens of traffic policemen at each exit, cause no lights work, or no electricity, or no road sense. And the jams extend to miles in the exit lanes and in the service lanes and on to the roads to get on/off at all hours.

All alternate routes (like the old delhi-gurgaon road) have been practically washed off with foot deep potholes, encroachment and so on. The ITy-Vity wallahs employ a huge plague of flies, clogging the roads more or less 24 hours a day. Transit/transport == non existent. Yes, getting out of gurgaon (or getting anywhere in it) is a fun experience, including to the airport.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Aug 2015 12:31

PARIS — Airbus says Indian budget airline IndiGo has finalized an exceptionally large order for 250 single-aisle A320neo jets.

IndiGo, India's largest domestic airline, had signed a preliminary order last year and firmed it up Monday, Airbus said in a statement. Airbus called it the company's biggest ever order by number of jets.

At list prices, the jets would cost $26 billion, though customers usually negotiate discounts.

Several Asian low-cost carriers are building up fleets amid growing demand. IndiGo's president Aditya Ghosh said the order would allow his company to further develop low-cost travel in India and abroad.

The A320neo is an upgraded, more fuel-efficient version of Airbus' popular A320 jets, usually used on mid-range flights.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 17 Aug 2015 18:46

Hwere precisely will IndiGo park these 250 planes? Is there enough tarmac to hold them? + 250 x 4? crews. Are they poaching every other airline or do they have a training caaleje?

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 17 Aug 2015 21:02

Shreeman wrote:Hwere precisely will IndiGo park these 250 planes? Is there enough tarmac to hold them? + 250 x 4? crews. Are they poaching every other airline or do they have a training caaleje?

IndiGo has a solid cadet pilot training program.

http://www.caeoaa.com/indigo/#.VdINRHuTTmM

Likely that most of their FOs will come from this pipeline. There will be some lateral hiring from competitors for Captains no doubt. Of course, all the munnas who spent 25 lakhs getting their CPL in US (numbering around 3000 in desh) will likely not be current. So these hapless munnas will continue being under employed at their current gigs, whatever it is.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 Aug 2015 05:39

Shreeman wrote:Hwere precisely will IndiGo park these 250 planes? Is there enough tarmac to hold them? + 250 x 4? crews. Are they poaching every other airline or do they have a training caaleje?

They will probably lease out many of the planes and earn $$ and get them back later as more capacity is required.. IndiGo planners seem to be quite smart about their finances. Only airline in India to post profits consistently. So they must have a plan ready for these aircraft.

I would have been much happier if some of these had been A330's or A350's however. We desperately need more private Indian carriers to start Intl. ops. IndiGo, is the only one with enough cash to do it. But they seem to be completely ignoring the intl. market even over the long term.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2015 07:16

there is plenty of overnight apron space in locations like blr, hyd, delhi....in blr kingfisher used to have these spaces...now there is no airline which uses blr as its base hub (jet is mumbai, indigo is delhi i think, spicejet is chennai, goair is mumbai).
atleast 20 737 sized planes can be parked in blr for sure...without interfering with the late night surge in international planes.

airlines have to park their plane after the last flight of the night in same location where the next mornings first flight takes off. its a complex operations research problem which they likely use some resource planning sw for.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 18 Aug 2015 13:25

singha,

you underestimate how many 250 is. It is more than entire fleet of air india and jet. Both combined. They park half theirs abroad for return journeys, presumably. This is primarily a domestic surge. You also cant park in random places any more than the planes that will take off in the morning, as you note yourself.

This is an absurd scale. Unless they are planning on empty flights in the evening AND mornings from every satellite city, the airports will be hosed.

On the other hand, that extra runway business in delhi, and take off landing rates in major airports might finally reach many a minute if this is realised.

I dont know how fast they are buying them (its not 250 off some parking lot), but even over 10 years adding 250 planes to domestic traffic will be a huge endeavor. I bet they ask for parking spaces ion IAF/IN ramps in places like agra/gwaliar/goa.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 18 Aug 2015 15:05

Indigo does not have to operate 250 airplanes just because they placed an order for 250 airplanes. Their relatively healthier financial position has allowed them to hedge on the air traveller market substantially improving in Asia over the next decade or so. I am not sure of the numbers, but they already have 70 or so A320's. Wiki informs us that Indigo has leased 12 320's from Tigerair.

Meanwhile, IndiGo has leased 12 Airbus A320 aircraft from Tigerair, to be delivered between December 2014 to May 2015, to assist with its expansion plans whilst awaiting delivery of its 430 Airbus A320neo

Atleast part of the 250 will go towards replacing those older A320's. I would imagine that of the remaining, some will be leased out to other operators. In essence, although 250 orders have been placed, the actual fleet will expand by much less.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 18 Aug 2015 17:54

^^ Indigo would want the average age of an aircraft in service not to exceed 8 years. Per a report yesterday all the 100 aircraft that they had ordered earlier have been delivered. The newer lot ordered are NEO variant (Lighter weight,Improved fuel efficient engines) which will replace gradually the earlier aircraft in service.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 18 Aug 2015 18:24

Apologies if posted earlier. Very interesting.

dinakar · Post by **dinakar** » 18 Aug 2015 22:24

Shreeman wrote:singha,

I dont know how fast they are buying them (its not 250 off some parking lot), but even over 10 years adding 250 planes to domestic traffic will be a huge endeavor. I bet they ask for parking spaces ion IAF/IN ramps in places like agra/gwaliar/goa.

Shreeman,
Indigo follows something called Sale-lease back approach. In 2005 it ordered 100 A320 the last of which joined in the later part of 2014, but meanwhile they leased back the first sixteen, leaving them with only 84 A320's now. The recent order will also go through the same way.
Click Just go through this to know the nuances. The above website is also a good one to follow the indian avaition industry.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 19 Aug 2015 06:04

dinakar,

I am not sure what the point of reading that articles was, it merely says Indigo can park its planes because Kingfisher died and left a void of 50. Remember the first hundred joined when there was a huge tarmac expansion. There arent any big under construction aprons right now. The other intrigue is Etihad poaching and an even earlier addition of 12 from Tiger. The whole thing seems even more unworkable.

The sale lease back is a capital raising mechanism. It is at best a minor tidbit here. 16 out of a 100 is nothing, let alone 16 out of 350. Airbus produces 35? 320s a month. They have plenty of capacity to sell 250 in 10 years. Can IndiGo absorb them? And no, 20 years isnt quite retirement time for an A320.

Even if a few aircraft are operated by the likes of Eithad, IndiGo will have a 50% share of domestic market AND a 300+ plane fleet. They will define (as a low cost carrier) the flying experience and uswr expectations. Think RyanAir as an analogy. Thats probably not good for domestic aviation. You want some frills to be part of the getting stuck at airports for hours thing. Not squeezing every penny.

If this order works out, there will be huge traffic in the air. On bad days, international scale chaos. On the positive front, thats a lot of capacity. Aerocity added 5100 rooms (or will if it ever opens), this adds ~50,000 seats.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Aug 2015 07:11

There is plenty of land for apron expansions in places like
Blr. Delhi and Mumbai already have massive aprons.
Places like Goa are constrained.

They will induct ac keeping in.mind growth and load factors not in a Chinese way.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Aug 2015 10:53

India's Ghost Terminals: Rs 325 Crore, 8 Airports, No Passengers