PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

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subhamoy.das
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by subhamoy.das »

China has surely done a "borrow and build" for 15 years and now its debt stands at 25T USD ( 8T in external and 12T in corporate debt ). How will it service this debt? Its cash in bank ( foreign reserves ) is in low Ts. Its GDP is in low Ts and a lot of its productions are sitting in ware houses. It is making profit ( current account surplus is now down to 0.5T USD ) but can it service this debt! Assuming that the interest rate on the external debt is 5%, China would need .4T in cash every year just to service its debt and 80% of its surplus will be eaten in servicing the debt! http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/current-account

If China were a car company then its employees and its share holders and it lenders will be in deep stink. China better find a way to launch some real innovative and high quality cars to rave up sales or else it will have to file for bankruptcy because it cannot print USD and there are no takers o for its currency in the international debt market yet!
Last edited by subhamoy.das on 30 Mar 2014 20:01, edited 1 time in total.
panduranghari
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by panduranghari »

Liu wrote:
panduranghari wrote:^ for now.

Everything can be improved. And when manpower becomes expensive, 3D printing may resolve the issue of limited manpower in certain aspects.
however, billions of people all over the world are still struggling for food ,clothes and basi accomodation..

To them, a job in sweatshops is quite attractive.

so, the manpower won't become expensive" enough to make capitalists give up traditional manufacturing assembly line....at least in the coming 50 years.
I disagree. Job in sweat shops is a means to an end. Don't assume the people can put up with bad work or poor working conditions for long. A restive population eventually just rebels. Besides there will be a need to ensure there are people willing to buy what you want to sell.

Tell me why can't sweat shops reopen in the west?
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by panduranghari »

Austin wrote:^^ China debts are also caused by Shadow Banking and Bad Debts that perhaps would be written off.

I think the advantage that China has over Western Economy is they still grow at 5-6 % and are now gradually focussing on internal growth rather than export driven which wont last for ever ..... how ever it needs to be seen if this transistion is sucessfully maitaining the same growth and without creating social disorder.

I was watching On China series on CNN and the ex China ambassador to US mentioned that within next 10 years the Communist Party would move toward some form of Democracy ..... Is that the thinking as well in China ?
However Chinese shadow banking is not directly connected to western banking. So western banking collapse won't affect Chinese directly.

However, the contago can cause big problems. Simply because lot of loans given to SME in china are given by those who are storing tons of raw materials which acts like a collateral. And this collateral has has multiple claimants, with every claimant thinking they own the collateral in case of bust.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by chola »

subhamoy.das wrote:China has surely done a "borrow and build" for 15 years and now its debt stands at 25T USD ( 8T in external and 12T in corporate debt ). How will it service this debt? Its cash in bank ( foreign reserves ) is in low Ts. Its GDP is in low Ts and a lot of its productions are sitting in ware houses. It is making profit ( current account surplus is now down to 0.5T USD ) but can it service this debt! Assuming that the interest rate on the external debt is 5%, China would need .4T in cash every year just to service its debt and 80% of its surplus will be eaten in servicing the debt! http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/current-account

If China were a car company then its employees and its share holders and it lenders will be in deep stink. China better find a way to launch some real innovative and high quality cars to rave up sales or else it will have to file for bankruptcy because it cannot print USD and there are no takers o for its currency in the international debt market yet!

This is a fine example of why we need to ban the few chini regulars we have and keep this a pure bharati discussion. Because if the only purpose of this thread is to bait the 50-centers then it is not worth having here.

Every time someone like Liu posts, we get the local jai hinders' dander up and we end up with totally inane post that does nothing for our understanding of this chicom economy which, by the way, is basically the only important economy contiguous with India. Unless we want to be bracketed with Bangladesh, TSP and Nepal forever we need to bring something to the table on the chini like the Japanese, Koreans and even Thais and Burmese.

To start with, to even create a debt of 25T is a mind blowing thing. Except for a select few nations cannot create this kind of create. Until the chinis did it, this is pretty much the reserve of the US and possibly the EU. So instead of pretending that this is a "problem" we should find out how the hell they were able to create that kind of credit in the first place.

Secondly, no coalition of Western banks, outside the US Fed, is stupid or even wealthy enough to lend 25T to the chinis so you tell me what foreign debt are they in need of servicing? The truth is their foreign reserve around 4T which covers their foreign debt of 1T four times over.

Now, chini debt to itself reminds me of what an economist from Goldman Sachs once told an economist from Harvard University who said "China will get old before it gets rich." The GS economist said "That is a problem only if society actually gives a sh1t and burdens itself down with a Social Security system. The PRC doesn't give a sh1t."

The PRC owes money to itself. It doesn't give a sh1t if it defaults to itself. The infrastructure would already have been built. They did the same crap during the 1990s when every one of its banks was insolvent.

It works like a close system with the one exception of the giant sized forex kitty that allows it to buy material that it needs. But inside China they can play with funny money any way they see fit.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by subhamoy.das »

Chinense external debt is not 1 T it is 8T and counting. The whole world is trying to figure out how is it able to sustain this borrow and build model, including jai-hind types here. So relax and focus on the post and not the posters.

There is another myth that Lio was trying to peddle. Chinese buy using cash so debts are for building road and houses. Well, as it stands, while indian house hold debt % of GDP is 12% that of China is 32% and that of US in 70% or more. So the basic point is that china is not only in borrow and build mode but also borrow and consume mode.

Regarding internal debt being written off or covered by printed money. Any country could do that. But that should have an effect on inflation even in closed systems unless every price is controlled by the state and they is no market forces at all which i doubt the case in China. So 1+1 = 4 for China while 1+1=2 for rest of world. What is the root cause of this. It cannot be simply explained by them being closed economy and a trade power house
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Austin »

The difference in Chinese External Debt figures is because how the state owned SAFE calculates external debt versus says International banks calculates it.

http://www.businessinsider.in/These-Thr ... 552872.cms
The State Administration of Foreign Exchange (SAFE) said the country had $823 billion of external debt at the end of Q3 - about 9% of GDP.

Some have argued that this is evidence of desperation, and that China is now borrowing money from foreigners, having maxed out on domestic credit.

Pointing to China's international investment position (IIP) data, Standard Chartered's Stephen Green writes that this measure is the most "comprehensive measure of the total liabilities that China Inc. owes the world," and that "China's liabilities are dominated by foreign direct investment (FDI), the best kind of liability."

The IIP data puts all of China's liabilities to the world at $3.8 trillion as of September 2013, or about 43% of GDP. This number is much bigger than SAFE's for a few key reasons. 1. SAFE doesn't include liabilities denominated in foreign currencies but not those in offshore yuan. 2. It excludes FDI.

But a breakdown of IIP data shows that the largest part of this debt is driven by FDI which amounted to $2.3 trillion at the end of 2013. Portfolio investment totaled $347 billion. The remaining $1.1 trillion is driven by trade credit, loans from foreign creditors, and deposits of foreign firms in China.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

panduranghari wrote:
Liu wrote:however, billions of people all over the world are still struggling for food ,clothes and basi accomodation..

To them, a job in sweatshops is quite attractive.

so, the manpower won't become expensive" enough to make capitalists give up traditional manufacturing assembly line....at least in the coming 50 years.
I disagree. Job in sweat shops is a means to an end. Don't assume the people can put up with bad work or poor working conditions for long. A restive population eventually just rebels. Besides there will be a need to ensure there are people willing to buy what you want to sell.

Tell me why can't sweat shops reopen in the west?
well, there are billions of such hungery people all over the world, of of whom live in 3rd world ,such as Africa,South Asia ,southeast Asia and LAtin Africa.
they are still struggling for basic food and accomodation.
To them,it is too luxery for hungery people to reject jobs in sweatshops.


BTW, a job in sweatshops in CHina usually can earn 300-600 USD/monthly, it is still quite attractive to the billions of poor people.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

subhamoy.das wrote:China has surely done a "borrow and build" for 15 years and now its debt stands at 25T USD ( 8T in external and 12T in corporate debt ). How will it service this debt? Its cash in bank ( foreign reserves ) is in low Ts. Its GDP is in low Ts and a lot of its productions are sitting in ware houses. It is making profit ( current account surplus is now down to 0.5T USD ) but can it service this debt! Assuming that the interest rate on the external debt is 5%, China would need .4T in cash every year just to service its debt and 80% of its surplus will be eaten in servicing the debt! http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/current-account

If China were a car company then its employees and its share holders and it lenders will be in deep stink. China better find a way to launch some real innovative and high quality cars to rave up sales or else it will have to file for bankruptcy because it cannot print USD and there are no takers o for its currency in the international debt market yet!
you know little abut how "borrow and build" model is on in CHina.

it was mainly infrastructures and real asset that CHinese government has invested on with borrowed money in the past decades.

however,the price of infrastructures and real asset has increased 10+ times in the past decades.

that means, the apprecation of infrastructure and real asset provide enough fund to repay "borrowed money" .
of course, sometimes CHinese borrower might not have enough cash to repay "borrowed money",but the infrastructures and real assets they built is still there and still worth much more than the borrowed money".



For example:
During 1995-2003, CHinese government borrowed about 300Bliion RMB(about 40billion USD) and invested them on infrastructures such as expressways.
However, because of appreciation, those expressways might be worth 3 trillion RMB(500 billion USD) now.


So is privat debts.

For example.
I borrowed 0.3 million RMB( about 50K USD) and bought one house in 2009,but now the house is worth 1M RMB(150K USD).




SO, guy, as long as rural CHinese are still rushing into urban area and urbanization is on, Chinese economy will grow much faster than normal countries. and the "borrow and build" mod can be on and sovled by the apprication of real assets.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by svinayak »

I agree with Chola. THis should be a Bharatiya Discussion. This cannot be some crap discussion.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Theo_Fidel »

^^^
What an empty headed pointless article.

Exactly the same thing could have been and was said in 1988 Japan or 2007 USA or 1929 USA or 1964 Soviets or 2006 Spain/Portugal/Greece or even 2011 Dubai.

Is any of this applicable in India? We have a more conventional economy where if you reduce the interest rate folks run to real estate or Gold or under the mattress for investment. We are also stuck with a gigantic public sector that actively dis-saves money. It is hard to see how India gets to 50% investment rate in such an environment. Our banks have to pay depositors 8%-10% interest rates to attract deposits.

Again the arguments are not about crash and burn vs sky scrapers. The argument is about growth rates and efficiency and increasing productivity.
All these observers again miss the key aspects of what is allowing China to save money and grow rapidly. The hard work of its workers which in turn is built on.

1. Education for all to High school.
2. End of social barriers. Esp. for women.

India would do well to focus on those two. All else is maya.

Of course historically the mandarin bureaucrat has always found a way to steal/squander the hard work of the Chinese proles. I don’t think this time is going to be different. One small group will find a way capture everything, bitter tears for everyone else.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by krishnan »

https://in.news.yahoo.com/anti-vice-cra ... ector.html
HONG KONG (Reuters) - A crackdown on a once-thriving sex trade in China's factory of the world will come with a significant economic cost for the city of Dongguan's local government, which relies heavily on the entertainment industry for tax revenues.

Dongguan, a sprawling manufacturing base in the Pearl River Delta that has also been dubbed "sin city", has already been grappling with an economic slowdown and higher operating costs that have seen scores of factories close or move to cheaper locations inland or to countries such as Vietnam, Cambodia or Bangladesh.

In February, the city's second engine of growth was hit hard when more than 6,000 police officers launched anti-vice raids, arresting about 1,000 people and hitting businesses across the board, from hotels, massage parlours and karaoke bars to taxi drivers and retailers.

"Manufacturing is unlikely to recover and the service industry has been hurt, so Dongguan's economy in the first quarter should not look good," said Qun Liao, chief economist at China Citic Bank International. "If there's no manufacturing, there's no one to enjoy the services."

The raids are expected to result in some 50 billion yuan in losses for businesses in the city, according to the official Xinhua news agency.

An agricultural backwater town until the late 1980s, Dongguan was transformed into one of the world's most important manufacturing hubs as China boomed, producing everything from electronics and garments to furniture and toys.

GOVERNMENT COFFERS HIT

Persistent weakness in China's manufacturing sector has reinforced fears of a sharper-than-expected slowdown at the start of 2014, and some government economists think national authorities have already started boosting spending to put a floor under growth.

The economic slowdown and vice crackdown have cast doubt over Dongguan's ability to reach its 2014 economic growth target of 9 percent, a far cry from its heady annual growth rates of up to 23 percent.

In a city where the local government gets the lion's share of taxes from the service industry, as opposed to the 25 percent share it gets from the manufacturing sector, the impact from the anti-vice crackdown on local coffers is cause for concern.

Dongguan's gross domestic product reached 520 billion yuan in 2013, with tax revenues of over 30 billion yuan, said Lin Jiang, head of Public Finance and Taxation Department of Lingnan College at Sun Yat-sen University in the southern province of Guangdong, where the city is located.

Of that, an estimated 3.6 billion yuan came from the entertainment business, he told Reuters, adding that the impact from the crackdown would extend across the board.

"The first impact from a slump in hotel business is a drop in business tax, so local government's revenue drops. Other industries that benefit from the hotel business, such as food and restaurants, fashion, jewellery, retail, which all contribute to value-added tax, are also hurt," Lin said.


LIGHTS ON, NOBODY HOME

On a visit to Dongguan last week, the combined impact of the economic slowdown and recent raids was clear.

By 7 p.m., bright, neon signs dangling from low-rise hotels, karaoke lounges and bars lit up Swan Lake Road, among the most bustling streets in the town of Changping, but there were few customers or bar girls to be seen.

"Business is quiet nowadays. Police come and inspect three times a week," said a bartender in one of the biggest clubs in town. He declined to be identified due to the sensitive nature of his business, as the crackdown continues.

Changping is close to a train station that links, in just over an hour, directly to the Asia financial centre of Hong Kong, helping to fuel its vibrant sex and entertainment industry that caters in large part to travelling businessmen.

Chinese media reports have estimated that at least 300,000 people are employed in Dongguan's sex industry and that it contributes about a tenth of the city's revenue.

In the industrial area of Changping, many empty factories had bright yellow signs plastered on shuttered gates advertising them for rent.

A factory owner from Hong Kong said the Changping industrial park had seen just 20-30 percent occupancy rates since it opened five years ago, with most tenants local textile companies.

In Houjie, another factory town in Dongguan hit hard by the anti-vice crackdown, many hotels offered steep discounts, while others had been forced to close along with karaoke bars.

Taxi drivers and cosmetics salespeople said revenue had dropped by 50-60 percent.

"I hope the prostitutes come back," said the owner of one cosmetics retailer.
:rotfl:

(Reporting by Clare Jim and Yimou Lee; Writing by Anne Marie Roantree; Editing by Kim Coghill)
subhamoy.das
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by subhamoy.das »

Liu wrote:
subhamoy.das wrote:China has surely done a "borrow and build" for 15 years and now its debt stands at 25T USD ( 8T in external and 12T in corporate debt ). How will it service this debt? Its cash in bank ( foreign reserves ) is in low Ts. Its GDP is in low Ts and a lot of its productions are sitting in ware houses. It is making profit ( current account surplus is now down to 0.5T USD ) but can it service this debt! Assuming that the interest rate on the external debt is 5%, China would need .4T in cash every year just to service its debt and 80% of its surplus will be eaten in servicing the debt! http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/current-account

If China were a car company then its employees and its share holders and it lenders will be in deep stink. China better find a way to launch some real innovative and high quality cars to rave up sales or else it will have to file for bankruptcy because it cannot print USD and there are no takers o for its currency in the international debt market yet!
you know little abut how "borrow and build" model is on in CHina.

it was mainly infrastructures and real asset that CHinese government has invested on with borrowed money in the past decades.

however,the price of infrastructures and real asset has increased 10+ times in the past decades.

that means, the apprecation of infrastructure and real asset provide enough fund to repay "borrowed money" .
of course, sometimes CHinese borrower might not have enough cash to repay "borrowed money",but the infrastructures and real assets they built is still there and still worth much more than the borrowed money".



For example:
During 1995-2003, CHinese government borrowed about 300Bliion RMB(about 40billion USD) and invested them on infrastructures such as expressways.
However, because of appreciation, those expressways might be worth 3 trillion RMB(500 billion USD) now.


So is privat debts.

For example.
I borrowed 0.3 million RMB( about 50K USD) and bought one house in 2009,but now the house is worth 1M RMB(150K USD).




SO, guy, as long as rural CHinese are still rushing into urban area and urbanization is on, Chinese economy will grow much faster than normal countries. and the "borrow and build" mod can be on and sovled by the apprication of real assets.
For you to pay the debt u need to SELL the asset other wise it is paper wealth and cannot be used to service your debt. By that logic the Chinese govt will have SELL most of the roads and buildings or else these are all paper wealth. Of course the other thing u can do is rent it out. The CHINESE govt can also do that and I believe is doing that by collecting tolls and taxes for usage of these assets.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

subhamoy.das wrote:
Liu wrote:
you know little abut how "borrow and build" model is on in CHina.

it was mainly infrastructures and real asset that CHinese government has invested on with borrowed money in the past decades.

however,the price of infrastructures and real asset has increased 10+ times in the past decades.

that means, the apprecation of infrastructure and real asset provide enough fund to repay "borrowed money" .
of course, sometimes CHinese borrower might not have enough cash to repay "borrowed money",but the infrastructures and real assets they built is still there and still worth much more than the borrowed money".



For example:
During 1995-2003, CHinese government borrowed about 300Bliion RMB(about 40billion USD) and invested them on infrastructures such as expressways.
However, because of appreciation, those expressways might be worth 3 trillion RMB(500 billion USD) now.


So is privat debts.

For example.
I borrowed 0.3 million RMB( about 50K USD) and bought one house in 2009,but now the house is worth 1M RMB(150K USD).




SO, guy, as long as rural CHinese are still rushing into urban area and urbanization is on, Chinese economy will grow much faster than normal countries. and the "borrow and build" mod can be on and sovled by the apprication of real assets.
For you to pay the debt u need to SELL the asset other wise it is paper wealth and cannot be used to service your debt. By that logic the Chinese govt will have SELL most of the roads and buildings or else these are all paper wealth. Of course the other thing u can do is rent it out. The CHINESE govt can also do that and I believe is doing that by collecting tolls and taxes for usage of these assets.
there are two ways to solve debit and cash,as you refer
1. rent it out and pay loan with rent....
if the house was bought before 2008,then it is quite possible here that rent is enough for the Monthly payments of bank mortgage loans.
for example, I bought one house in 2009 with the help of mortgage loan.the monthly pay of mortagage loans is 2KRMB(350USD).

But the prevail rent of the house is about 3-4KRMB(500-600USD). so if the house were rented out, the rent would be enough for monthly pay.

2. toll-collecting.
For CHinese governmet ,toll-collecting is one of main ways to pay bank loans for expressways nets. it works and the constructions of many expressways is profitable.

3. selling some of state-owned real assets.
if necessay, chinese government can sold some infrastructure for cash. because rapid appreciation of real asset and infrastructure in China, it usually means that Chinese government can get enough cash by selling quite limited state-owned real asset.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by DavidD »

Toll collecting has been TOO profitable, actually. Many people are griping about greedy local governments continuing to collect tolls long after the construction costs are paid for, even though the government promised that the tolls were only temporary and would end as soon as the construction debts are paid.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by chola »

http://variety.com/2014/film/news/capta ... 201153224/

In China, “Winter Soldier” scored the largest opening for a Disney-Marvel film with $39.2 million, which is 16% larger than “Iron Man 3.”
Variety is the trade magazine for Hollywood.

A take of $39 million would an annual top grosser for a Bollywood flick. This is Captain "America" grabbing $39m on opening weekend not Captain "China."

This is one nation that despises the very crap that it puts out in favor of higher quality foreign stuff. We see it in the pattern they buy cars, baby formulas and even cultural products like sports and movies. Bollywood can and should do better in this market.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Austin »

DavidD wrote:Toll collecting has been TOO profitable, actually. Many people are griping about greedy local governments continuing to collect tolls long after the construction costs are paid for, even though the government promised that the tolls were only temporary and would end as soon as the construction debts are paid.
No different than what we have here , Toll Collection are just too profitable and the prices are adhoc ..with full participation of state to enrich the private players in business.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

chola wrote:http://variety.com/2014/film/news/capta ... 201153224/

In China, “Winter Soldier” scored the largest opening for a Disney-Marvel film with $39.2 million, which is 16% larger than “Iron Man 3.”
Variety is the trade magazine for Hollywood.

A take of $39 million would an annual top grosser for a Bollywood flick. This is Captain "America" grabbing $39m on opening weekend not Captain "China."

This is one nation that despises the very crap that it puts out in favor of higher quality foreign stuff. We see it in the pattern they buy cars, baby formulas and even cultural products like sports and movies. Bollywood can and should do better in this market.
I watched "3 idiots" several years ago, it is a good film.
but most bollywood films,which are full of bollywood-style dance, are rejected by most CHinese people.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

well, one oversea CHinese wrote what China does better than most other countries .....
1. CHinese food.
2.CHinese urban management and infrastructure
3.the proserpity and development of commerce in urban areas.
4. medical care,which cost/performance is much better than USA.
5.public security.
not every country is safe enough for you to walk in street at night as you do in CHina.
6.public translation system.
7. E-commerce... Taobao is asskicking Ebay.
,大中华美食,这个没必要解释了吧。。。

2,城市建设和基础设施建设,以及城市面貌。欧美国家哪怕是大城市,大都很旧,城市规模较小,功能区划单一,规划虽然不错但过分拥挤。城市区域档次分化太明显,好区坏区天壤之别。其次,城市建设规模大都一般,如果是“都市动物”,喜欢城市丛林的氛围,对city view情有独钟之人,还是老老实实待在我朝大城市吧。。基础设施方面,虽然有一定规划上的远见,但是美帝而言,大都随时间过长而变得“效用低下”,比如纽约的城市道路就从来没有铺好过,隔三差五裂口子;隧道墙皮严重脱落,甚至渗水,耗子满地跑;路灯栏杆脱漆之类的小事情我也就不吐槽了,地铁站烂得跟煤窑一样,都没钱重新装修一下。

3,城市的繁华程度和商业密度。我曾经吐过槽,美国只有“一个半”城市,“一个”指得是“纽约”,“半个”指的是芝加哥。本世纪初我朝零售业的热潮和本世纪第二个五年商业地产的爆发,在商业密度上,我朝大城市Mall的选择,已经多到不知道怎么选了,各类商业街的规划也相当完备。而米妖而言,除了刚才提到的“一个半”,基本上其他地区一个“都市区”就两三个商业区吧,购物,消费方面的便利程度和选择面大大不如我朝。。繁华这个就不用说了,和我朝比“人多”,那是吃错药了。。什么?你说你正好讨厌人多?凡事要有个选择不是,在上海你可以去郊区躲清静,美帝除了这“一个半”,可没地儿给你“找繁华”咯。。。

4,医疗系统。估计这点有争议,我只分享自己的观点。美国来说,医疗系统很复杂,公立医院的分类和分层很明显,这里就不多说了。总之,美国医疗体现出来的就是“效率低,花费极高”,尤其是“费用广为诟病”,看个急诊被敲2k美刀的账单是常事,当然在保险认定上如果有“争议”,医院可能会打折“求不惹事”,但依然很贵,医保支出一直是美国家庭的最大支出之一,生个大病要了中产阶级老本的事情不少见,故而此项和美国教育,住房并称“美国三大烂”。。相对而言,我朝医疗系统无论效率还是花费,明显公道太多了。。。

5,治安问题。好区,坏区治安差很远,但总的来说都不是很好,尤其是大城市治安总体不好,犯罪率数据很多,这里就不赘述了。。。以个人而言,在上海,我敢在凌晨随便走,在美帝深夜基本上不敢随便出本人所在社区。。。

6,大众运输。这个也不多说了,有完备大众运输系统的都市区就那么些个,而且诸如LA这类基本上算半吊子。其他地方没车基本出不了门。。。

7,电子商务服务。上面有人说了,ebay真心不怎么样,其实Amazon等等也不怎么样,说实话淘宝在服务整合上下的功夫很大。

8,效率,效率。美国各种部门,无论行政还是商业的效率都出奇的查。上至政府部门,下至商业银行,各种没效率。。

某楼:1. 国内旅游365天能做到365个地方天天不重样儿。
2. 网购一般而言是个渣,跟淘宝比好弱。
3. 室友们各种批评这里的吃的,其实只是他们吃不惯而已。
4. 这个是听说的,美国一般人的世界地理历史不好。
5. 国内网络其实真心挺棒的。(这个我解释呀,其实可能是住的地方网络真的该换了。。。)
6. 尼玛敢不敢和我帝都比交通费!!!
7. 火车整个就是一龟速,高铁多好,你妹!
8. 这里一般中国人比外国人有钱多了。
9. 这里收垃圾是要分时间收的,垃圾车过了点一个星期不理你,fuxx!
10. 这里的白天太短了!!!
---------------------------------
先说这么多吧,有空想起来再写。
----------------
补几个:(其实是吐槽)
11. 这里的地铁偶尔是会搞罢工或暂停的,一停还要去其他地方倒车,好麻烦,反正我没怎么听说过帝都魔都什么的这么干。

12. 听过这么一句话:每天打开报纸、电视、等等各种,永远是伦敦伦敦伦敦,想看看本地新闻都只能在报纸的一角角才能找到 -_-#(不晓得真实性)

13. 这里取钱好像2000镑还是多少往上还要预约,你这不是坑呢吗!中国要5万才需要好嘛!还有啊,一天机器才让取300镑是几个意思?银行你是多缺钱!!!(不晓得限额能不能改,反正觉得这个提款额度恶心死了)
chola
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by chola »

Liu wrote:well, one oversea CHinese wrote what China does better than most other countries .....
1. CHinese food.
2.CHinese urban management and infrastructure
3.the proserpity and development of commerce in urban areas.
4. medical care,which cost/performance is much better than USA.
5.public security.
not every country is safe enough for you to walk in street at night as you do in CHina.
6.public translation system.
7. E-commerce... Taobao is asskicking Ebay.
We can tell from MNC's sales that China doesn't do a lot of things very well.

To start off with, Captain America dominates your box office because Chinese films are inferior. Because films reflect cultural affinity, the fact that Chinese people would rather watch Captain America than anything Chinese says pretty well that Chinese people in general find Chinese culture itself less attractive than the American one. Think about it, Captain AMERICA is number one in the Chinese box office.

Western cars dominate your market. Not only do they capture a majority of Chinese sales, Western brands sell their cars in China at twice profit rate they do in Western markets. Basically, Chinese makes are so poor and the Chinese brand is so despised in China that Westerners can rip you off at will.

I know this because the multinationals are my world. I can tell you that China is the one market in the world where you can gorge on prices because its population will pay however much for anything that is not Chinese. So not only cars, but baby formula is twice as much in China as in the US. And so are the IPhone, Starbuck coffee and practically anything that the West makes.

There is one thing that China produces fairly well and is in high demand in the west. Do you know what that product is? Chinese women.

In the last decade or so, China is listed consistently as the number expat post and mainly because it is the greatest playground in the world for young foreign men. On Wall Street where I work, one of the most popular way for young interns to make a mark during Happy Hour (social drinking after work) is to tell China stories and the women they bedded. Even directors and CFOs are in awe of these kids and wished we had the opportunity when we were that young.

But Chinese women also tell us that Chinese products, indeed its very culture, is in poor regard in China itself. Young single Chinese females are consistently the most Western enamored segment of the chini population. There are tons of data out there that MNCs use to sell to Chinese women. You can sell Western brands at prices many multiples of what usually would sell in the West. This phenomenon is most stark in comparing the sexual relationships between races in China which is strictly Chinese women flocking to foreign men (including desi) and hardly ever the other way around.

Again, this makes China a wonderful market for foreign products. Not only is the consumer market massive and on par with the US but it has a built-in knowledge of its own inferiority that makes selling of foreign products, especially cultural products, lucrative.

India is practically the only place in Asia and the West that doesn't take advantage of this because we spend too much time trying to convince ourselves that the chinis are as poor and their economy is a potempkin village. The truth is they are wealthy materially, many times that of India and on par with the US as a market. Their real poverty is cultural and this can be exploited (and is exploited by every major MNC in the US, Europe, Japan and Korea.)

Bollywood could and should do a lot better here.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by panduranghari »

Liu wrote: I watched "3 idiots" several years ago, it is a good film.
but most bollywood films,which are full of bollywood-style dance, are rejected by most CHinese people.
That makes Chinese a bit more intelligent than Bollywood watching Indians. I do agree the quality of Bollywood flicks is abysmal. Bollywood is like our politics. Full of nepotism.
member_20292
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by member_20292 »

chola wrote:
There is one thing that China produces fairly well and is in high demand in the west. Do you know what that product is? Chinese women.
Ley lee yaar tumne...Liu ki
:D
member_20292
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by member_20292 »

chola wrote:
We can tell from MNC's sales that China doesn't do a lot of things very well.

To start off with, Captain America dominates your box office because Chinese films are inferior. Because films reflect cultural affinity, the fact that Chinese people would rather watch Captain America than anything Chinese says pretty well that Chinese people in general find Chinese culture itself less attractive than the American one. Think about it, Captain AMERICA is number one in the Chinese box office.

Western cars dominate your market. Not only do they capture a majority of Chinese sales, Western brands sell their cars in China at twice profit rate they do in Western markets. Basically, Chinese makes are so poor and the Chinese brand is so despised in China that Westerners can rip you off at will.

I know this because the multinationals are my world. I can tell you that China is the one market in the world where you can gorge on prices because its population will pay however much for anything that is not Chinese. So not only cars, but baby formula is twice as much in China as in the US. And so are the IPhone, Starbuck coffee and practically anything that the West makes.

Again, this makes China a wonderful market for foreign products. Not only is the consumer market massive and on par with the US but it has a built-in knowledge of its own inferiority that makes selling of foreign products, especially cultural products, lucrative.

India is practically the only place in Asia and the West that doesn't take advantage of this
1. then yoga and yoga related items should be exported in volumes from India to china.
2. if you are an Ayurveda guy and can piggyback off yoga ..export more.
3. Bollywood films if they are set in HongKong could do well in China.
4. Indian ripoffs of American culture ....software companies and products could do well there.
svinayak
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by svinayak »

One more headline in PRC
Jesus More Popular on China's Twitter Than Mao
Liu
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

chola wrote: We can tell from MNC's sales that China doesn't do a lot of things very well.

To start off with, Captain America dominates your box office because Chinese films are inferior. Because films reflect cultural affinity, the fact that Chinese people would rather watch Captain America than anything Chinese says pretty well that Chinese people in general find Chinese culture itself less attractive than the American one. Think about it, Captain AMERICA is number one in the Chinese box office.

Western cars dominate your market. Not only do they capture a majority of Chinese sales, Western brands sell their cars in China at twice profit rate they do in Western markets. Basically, Chinese makes are so poor and the Chinese brand is so despised in China that Westerners can rip you off at will.

I know this because the multinationals are my world. I can tell you that China is the one market in the world where you can gorge on prices because its population will pay however much for anything that is not Chinese. So not only cars, but baby formula is twice as much in China as in the US. And so are the IPhone, Starbuck coffee and practically anything that the West makes.
well, R&D and brand-promotion need not only investment,but also years of experience.

those oil-rich states have money ,but they never know how to investment on R&D,so they are always buyers .
but CHina ,as well as Japan several decades ago, invests heavily on R&D after having enough money . however, the fruit of R&D would not come out until enough investment and experience is accumulated.







There is one thing that China produces fairly well and is in high demand in the west. Do you know what that product is? Chinese women.

In the last decade or so, China is listed consistently as the number expat post and mainly because it is the greatest playground in the world for young foreign men. On Wall Street where I work, one of the most popular way for young interns to make a mark during Happy Hour (social drinking after work) is to tell China stories and the women they bedded. Even directors and CFOs are in awe of these kids and wished we had the opportunity when we were that young.

But Chinese women also tell us that Chinese products, indeed its very culture, is in poor regard in China itself. Young single Chinese females are consistently the most Western enamored segment of the chini population. There are tons of data out there that MNCs use to sell to Chinese women. You can sell Western brands at prices many multiples of what usually would sell in the West. This phenomenon is most stark in comparing the sexual relationships between races in China which is strictly Chinese women flocking to foreign men (including desi) and hardly ever the other way around.


1. girls from poorer countries are always "easier" to man from richer countries. it has nothing to do with nationality,but with economic reasons.
after the homeland get richer amd the girls have more chance to get better job in homeland, the girls' love of foreign men will always decrease.


2. before 1960s ,Japan was still poorer than Southeast Asia, thousands of Japanese girls went to southeast and worked as prostitutes in southeast asia. but after Japan got richer and Japanese girles can get decent jobs in their homeland, Japanese prosittues disappeared ,but indian ones and CHinese ones are still there,because their homeland can not give them enough decent jobs.
before in 1990s soviet had not collpased and their per capita GDP was still 20 times more than Chinese, Ukraine girls was not easy.
But now, Ukraine now is famous for prositute-exporting.


3. now,Chinese economy is growing faster . the Chinese prostitutes outside CHina is alsodecreasing rapidly.
Once Chinese prositutes disppear like Japanese ones, those prostitutes form poorer countries will still be there.

4. economy changes also will cause the changes of trans-state marriages
one decade ago, lots of girls from poorer mainland CHina were eager to marry men from richer Taiwan and Hongkong for higher life quality,but few girls from Taiwan and Hongkong were ready to marry men from poorer mainland CHina.

But now, case is quite different. the real life quality in many mainland CHinese areas is in fact equal to ,or even higher than, Taiwan and Hongkong.
less and less mainland Chinese girls' love for Taiwanese and Hongkongese are fading while more and more Taiwanese and Hongkongese girls are ready to marry mainland CHinese men.
Again, this makes China a wonderful market for foreign products. Not only is the consumer market massive and on par with the US but it has a built-in knowledge of its own inferiority that makes selling of foreign products, especially cultural products, lucrative.

India is practically the only place in Asia and the West that doesn't take advantage of this because we spend too much time trying to convince ourselves that the chinis are as poor and their economy is a potempkin village. The truth is they are wealthy materially, many times that of India and on par with the US as a market. Their real poverty is cultural and this can be exploited (and is exploited by every major MNC in the US, Europe, Japan and Korea.)

Bollywood could and should do a lot better here.
1.dignity, the complex of superiroty, elegance and confidence are all built on the base of strong economy.
it is too luxery for street beggar and slumdogs to talk "diginity ,elegance and confidence".
the complex of inferiority roots from poverty.

2. China does better in removing poverty, the root of the complex of inferiority,than India
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Shankas »

3. now,Chinese economy is growing faster . the Chinese prostitutes outside CHina is alsodecreasing rapidly.
Once Chinese prositutes disppear like Japanese ones, those prostitutes form poorer countries will still be there.
Liu
The one common chinese enterprise I found in poorest of poor countries was "chinese Kareokee bar" stocked with illegal chinese artists. I believe it is done with the ambassador's perview and blessing.

I have never seen any artists from other countries from the list you have mentioned. And you will never see any artists from India, Sri Lanka, Nepal, B'desh or even from Pakistan. Why do you think that is?

Here are the list of countries - Sierra Leone, Guinea, Liberia, Ivory Coast, Mali, Guinea Bissau, Gambia, Burkina Faso, Mauritania, Western Sahara, Niger, Chad and South Sudan.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by abhischekcc »

Chinese women in prostitution are not decreasing, but increasing. In Dubai, they are muscling out Russian, Philipino, and Indian women out from the market. There appears to be an endless supply of young and cheap women from China. In Dubai at least, only the top end of whoring still has east European and Uzbeki women.

If prostitution is a reflection of poverty in the supplier's country, then China is poorer even than India, Philipines, Pakistan and Russia.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

abhischekcc wrote:Chinese women in prostitution are not decreasing, but increasing. In Dubai, they are muscling out Russian, Philipino, and Indian women out from the market. There appears to be an endless supply of young and cheap women from China. In Dubai at least, only the top end of whoring still has east European and Uzbeki women.

If prostitution is a reflection of poverty in the supplier's country, then China is poorer even than India, Philipines, Pakistan and Russia.
sex industry is illegal ,but CHinese police usually keep blind eyes on it...
So it still quite prospers all over CHina.

Recently, a massive anti-***** compaign has been launched ,with the approval of CCP top bosses.
the prosperous sex industry has be beaten by it heavily...

But I am not so confidence that the compaign can last on.

BTW, here are some interesting information how economy development changes the sex industry between mainland CHina ,hongkong and Taiwan.

the rise of fall of " Mistresses village

1. not long ago, thousands of mainland Chinese girls volunteered in undergound mistresses of Hongkongese/Taiwanese for economical reasons,because at that time Hongkongese/Taiwanese aveage salary was 10-20 times of mainland China's....so even lowest-class hongkongese/Taiwanese could afford the Maintenance of one speical mainland CHinese mistresses.
At that time, thousands of such mainland mistresses of Hongkongese live in the urban avenues in Shenzhen, which bordes Hongkong.
those avenues are called " Mistresses village" by people.

2. However,after 2000, the salary gap between mainland China and Hong has been shrinked rapidly.. the life cost in mainland China also rises much..
SO, ordinary HOngkongese/Taiwanese can not afford speical underground mistresses in mainland China any more gradually........
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

another interest case about Taiwan and mainland CHina.

" Fall of Taiwan" and " counterattack Mainland CHina"




1. "Fall of Taiwan"
before 2008, thousands of mainland CHinese prostitutes smuggled into Taiwan for better income...Taiwanese joked that Mainland China conqered Taiwan not with PLA,but with prostitues,and Taiwan had fallen thus.


2. " counterattack Mainland CHina"

after 2000, the payment for sex workers in many mainland CHinese areas rose rapidly. after 2008 orso , the payment of prostitues in some mailand CHinese areas even surpasses that in Taiwan..
So, now many Taiwanese prostitues rushed into coastal mainland CHina for better income...
People here call it " Taiwanese counterattack Mainland CHina".
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by chola »

No, it has nothing to do with poverty or prostitution. If you are white (or even arab or desi) in China, you will never have to pay for sex with a Chinese girl. So all this talk about how this will change with poverty is moot. In fact, the richer the girl, the more well-bred the girl, the greater the attraction to foreigners. The expats are doing the cream at the top not the grounds on the bottom.

The MNC guys in China would never pay for sex. I'm sorry but if you can listen to the stories I hear here on the Street. Paying for sex is an absolute embarrassment for any Westerner in China. College girls, office chicks and models line up to meet them.

The most common things you hear about China from the Wall Street international trade crowd (including penny-less interns) are that it is a "paradise for men" and the "greatest playground" on earth.

http://www.thebeijinger.com/forum/2009/ ... toyou-know
Why are Chinese girls so easy to bang?

'Should pretty much sum it all up. Beijing is like a PARADISE for guys. And I'm not talking about brothels/massage parlors or anything where you pay money. It's like girls throw themselves at you at clubs, schools, bars, classes, etc, just to experience something "different", "exotic" and "exciting".

I've gotten quite big-headed since arriving in China. I got action back in the States, but NOTHING like China.

My Chinese isn't even that good.
Again, these girls constitute a huge market for Western items in China. They love foreign brands and despise Chinese ones. Because these pretty young things drive consumption trends in China, there are many studies on their habits, likes and dislikes.

I mention them only as a counterpoint to your post that China does things well. From what we see, most Chinese themselves do not believe this.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by ashi »

Liu, I don't know why you bother replying to Chola. He is asking the Mod to ban all the Chinese posters any way (not that I care). Why educate him? He knows nothing other than a few sales number.
[on the contrary only the abusive posters of any background get banned. those who left, left on their own perhaps to other "assignments" for their overlords. so stop trolling on this here]

After all these years, all the Chinese posters here have either left, or most of them got banned. There is really nothing left to argue. Nowadays China's GDP is about 4 to 5 times of india. And the gap is widening. It has proven most of the indian posters here wrong and wrong again ...
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Anand K »

Educated women of means hooking up with foreigners is a different issue but there's a historical side to Chinese flesh trade:

From Ancient Times sex in China had two sides - purely pro-natal sex (for procreation and large families) and to increase the prowess/spirit of the male (including fundaes like reverse ejaculat10n and transmutation of fluids!). Add to it Confucian theories of subservient nature of women, "blood memory of earlier sexual partners" and ludicrous eugenic voodoo sciences women "knew their bodies were destined to be used". Till the enforced purity of Mao-era (all discreet fun reserved for Inner Party members only), the cathouse was an integral part on any urban or large rural community, something bigger than the nagara-vadhu (bride of the city) or Zenana thing we saw in pre-Modern India..... or even the Bangkok/Pattaya. From the early 80s, the banquet and karaoke bar system exploded as a result of crony capitalism - all deals were "finalized" in these august locations. The international flesh trade grew out from this wholly internal karaoke bar/sauna system. Funny thing, the Japanese investors who started pouring into Liberalized China were also a major reason for the opening up of the new age cathouses, especially in the port cities. Funny how history repeats eh?

Anyway, now modernity gave Chinese (mainly rural and small town women) an even better chance to escape the quite repressive patriarchy and socio-political system and make something for themselves. Without much education and employable skills large numbers of impoverished women (most with families at home) turned to this trade, accompanying Chinese businesses that started opening shop around the world. If the local government was lax, then all the more. The PRC Govt also sees this as a low risk way to get these women to earn some money and remit it homewards. How else can one explain the veritable armies of PRC pr0stitutes with zero language or other skills in Singapore, Dubai, Abu Dhabi or dozens of major cities? AFAIK the Dubai phenomenon came after the Dragon Mall and International City projects which were greatly financed by Chinese entities - the trade-off was apparently a relaxed visa rules and local Govt turning a Nelson Eye to all this.

More on this later. Heart-breaking stuff actually, makes the patriarchy effects of Haryana/BIMARU/Nepal look like Andrea Dworkin-Land. BTW, I was in the Middle East for a few years. If you see a Indian looking woman on the road, there's a 10% chance she is a hooker. If it's a Filipina or a white girl it's 50%. If it's a Chinese or a 'Stani (CAR) well...... Stereotyping, but quite close to the truth sadly.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by member_20292 »

^^^

whoring is the oldest profession in the world. It will be there till time itself ends.

Politically incorrect, but some people would call the institution of marriage also a form of it.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by svinayak »

ashi wrote:Liu, I don't know why you bother replying to Chola. He is asking the Mod to ban all the Chinese posters any way (not that I care). Why educate him? He knows nothing other than a few sales number.

After all these years, all the Chinese posters here have either left, or most of them got banned. There is really nothing left to argue. Nowadays China's GDP is about 4 to 5 times of india. And the gap is widening. It has proven most of the indian posters here wrong and wrong again ...
This is a Indian forum to discuss India. This is not about any other country other than India
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by svinayak »

Anand K wrote: Without much education and employable skills large numbers of impoverished women (most with families at home) turned to this trade, accompanying Chinese businesses that started opening shop around the world. If the local government was lax, then all the more. The PRC Govt also sees this as a low risk way to get these women to earn some money and remit it homewards. How else can one explain the veritable armies of PRC pr0stitutes with zero language or other skills in Singapore, Dubai, Abu Dhabi or dozens of major cities?
They are now spies for the PRC govt. They are penetrating all the global business and govt in the world.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

let's go back to the topic.

here is another case telling how economy development impacts on ordinay people.

Frustrated Taiwanese veterans

In 1949,about 600K KMT troops fleed Taiwan from mainland China,after defeated in the civil war by PLA.
Almost all those 600K KMT solders were born in mainland China.

after Taiwan and mainland CHina got reconciled in 1980s,many of those Taiwan veterans found that life cost in mianland CHina was much lower than Taiwan and they could live a much more decent retired life in mainland CHina than in Taiwan.

In fact, in1990s,the monthly salary of mainland Chinese was only 50-100USD while the pension of Taiwanese veterans' pension was 500-800USD/monthly( 3200-6400RMB at the exchange rate at that time)
With their pension, almost all Taiwanese veterans could afford buying large house,dedicated housekeepr and medcial care and live a millionaire-level admiarable retirement life in mainland CHina in 1980s-1990s.

however, now the pension of Taiwanese veterans is still only 400-800 USD(only 2500-4800RMB at the current exchange rate).
with the change of exchange rate and inflation, the real purchase power of Taiwanese veterans has shrinked very much.
as we konw, the house price and rent in mainland CHina has risen 1000%+ since 2000.and even sweatshop peasant workers in mianland CHina can earn 400-800 USD/monthly already.


Thus, just in the past 10 years, the real life quality of those Taiwanese veterans has droppted down to "peasant worker level " from "millionnaire-level"...
those Taiwanese veterans must be the mose frastruated ones in the world.
Last edited by Liu on 15 Apr 2014 09:49, edited 1 time in total.
Liu
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Posts: 824
Joined: 12 Feb 2009 10:23

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

BTW,14 years ago, I was still a junior bank clerk and often dealt with the remittence of Taiwanese veterans pension.

At that time, my monthly salary was only 1000RMB(130USD),just 1/5-1/7 of Taiwanese veterans's pension( usually 500-800USD/monthly).

so,I indeed quite admired those Taiwanese for their high income .

morever, I thought that democracy was better way for Chinese and Taiwanese deomocracy was quite attractive to me.

But now, my salary is dozens of times more than that 14 years ago and I already earn more than most ordirary taiwanese.
most ordinary Chinese around me also live a much better life than before. However, Taiwanese real income in fact went down rapidly.


Experiencing the rapid devleopment in Mainland China and stagnation of Taiwan,I now quite question democracy. of course.

Instead, now I am quite confidence that China is on the right way while Taiwanese democracy is a $hit.

Guys, personal experience is more persuadable than anything...
TSJones
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by TSJones »

^^^^^^ You are making the classical mistake of confusing a political system with an economic system. You can have a democracy with a very socialist economic system (say, Sweden) or you can have a top down hierarchial system with very little socialist benefits but with alot of drected and state supported capitalism (China). There are all kinds of slots to fit in between such as Germany, the US, Brazil, and so on and so forth. Democracy is merely one form of government (the best in my opinion). You can also have a Facist, one man state, (Nazi Germany) with an awesome capitalist full employment economy. John Kenneth Galbraith has written extensively about ths.
Liu
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Posts: 824
Joined: 12 Feb 2009 10:23

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Liu »

TSJones wrote:^^^^^^ You are making the classical mistake of confusing a political system with an economic system. You can have a democracy with a very socialist economic system (say, Sweden) or you can have a top down hierarchial system with very little socialist benefits but with alot of drected and state supported capitalism (China). There are all kinds of slots to fit in between such as Germany, the US, Brazil, and so on and so forth. Democracy is merely one form of government (the best in my opinion). You can also have a Facist, one man state, (Nazi Germany) with an awesome capitalist full employment economy. John Kenneth Galbraith has written extensively about ths.
1. unproper politcal system usually prevents the deveopment of economy .
For example, democacy is not proper to africa and The Philippines
autocracy is not fit for N.Korea.
So, both N.korea and The Philippines are losers of economy race.

2. one political system who loses the economic race is always rejected by ordinay people.
Instead, if one political system wins the race of economy, it naturally is attractive to most ordinay people.

for example
while SOviet economy grew rapidly before 1980s, Soviet model was quite charmful and attractive to the 3rd world countries.
however when soviet economy declined,the charm of soviet also declined.
at last ,even soviet people lost the confidence on the soviet social system,which lost the economy race. thus ,soviet collapsed.

3. it seems to me that CHinese system is winning the economy race while west/Taiwan/hongkong/Japan are losing the economic race.
So, of course democracy is losing its charm to ordinary Chinese people.
Instead, the economic success makes CHinese people quite confidence on Chinese social/economal sytem ,although some guys labels it " autocracy".....
whatever indians here accept it or not, Chinese polical/economic system works better than most other countres.
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