Bharat Rakshak

You mean to say intelligent debates are not possible in China because it has authoritarian Government? And that is why Chinese posters behave here the way they do?

If the above is true... then why should we believe in stories you and Ashi and other like you post, since you yourself have implied that expecting intelligent debate with Chinese posters is wrong as they live in authoritarian countries.

And Wong ji how can you be so sure that if China was a democracy it would be worse then the CCP system?

There is intelligent debate in China. The Blogosphere is huge and extremely active. Overly active as a matter of fact (coup rumors).

When all is said and done, China is authoritarian. No one denies that. My point is simple. East Asian Authoritarian governments have a good track record of uplifting millions out of poverty. Middle Eastern Authoritarian governments have a horrible track record of uplifting millions out of poverty despite a huge natural resource advantage.

Park Chung-hee did some horrible, horrible things in South Korea. He shot students, people disappeared, etc. For me, the end justifies the means. Don't like it? Immigrate. That's what hundreds of thousands of South Koreans did and hundreds of thousands of Chinese are doing now.

Wong Ji, please understand my objective was not to compare the 2 systems. I just feel it's highly unjust for people to criticize Indian system, when they do have the courage / rights / balls to criticize there own system. Like you so blatantly do.

You do not criticize China because you are afraid of consequences. You insult, degrade and loath India because you can and it makes you feel good and there is no other reason for that. You despise our democracy because you don't have it. If India succeeds because of democracy then there is no moral or rational argument you can make against your own impotency against your own system.

you know what is the basic difference? We may or may not do well economically, but our system will survive because we have the power to change it. But in China's case the minute the economical miracle story ends, it ends the current system and you are afraid what would happen because as I said you are impotent and do not control your own destiny.

All of which happen to be single ethnicity, small population, islanded countries, innit? care to name a large population (say 100 million), multi ethnic country prospering in an authoritarian system in the modern world ?
China is unique in succeeding the way it has. India is, pretty much, mainstream in modern political systems.

Sri, please hold off on the philosophical comparisons of the two systems. Been there, done that, banned the flamewar participants before... From past experience, it leads to nothing more than sidetracking a thread.

wong, do you mind elaborating on what's on the Chinese blogosphere on the topic ? I read someplace that sites like weibo have actice discussions going on despite the clampdown, using elaborate pseudonyms for various characters and banned words (like 'coup')

Since we keep coming back to India, I’ll point out another thing the Panda posters miss.

India is a tropical country, the only large Tropical country in History to grow as rapidly and as fast. There is no precedent for what we are doing. India has a lot more to overcome as all modern systems have to be adapted to its conditions. Panda is able to steal technology, plug it into the power receptacle and immediately everything works. Not so in India. All the way down to a Chocolate bar everything has to be different. The best example is how the Panda supplied Turbines in Durgapur, Sagardhigi and Amartank are constantly breaking down, to the point of making them useless. They work fine in Temperate cool Panda land, not in hot, humid, dusty India. Apparently the Chinese technicians have thrown up their hands in frustration at the operating conditions.

Got the point Suraj Ji. And I agree, topic got side tracked.

Ah, I see. Rather than revolt against the evil system and overthrow it , you want to EMIGRATE (not immigrate)! What if there are no other places that want to take you ?

As for "Ends Justifies The Means" , how do you know what the "ends" are going to be like , especially when the brutalizing is happening? How did the 1960s and 70s Chinese know that 1990s to 2000 was going to be like what it turned out when Mao Tse Dong and the Gang of Four were running the cultural revolution ? Talking about Deng Xiao Ping's reforms and the Shenzen /Pearl River detla would have seen you being executed! Mao never promised the kind of China you see today, in fact, exactly the opposite!

How did you know that S. Korea's Park was going to succeed and that the North was going to fail in the 60s and 70s ? Kim Il Sung and his successors did exactly a lot of things Park did and had their version of a Korean Utopia. Does the end justify the means in North Korea back in the 60s and 70s ? How about Cuba, how about Loas, how about a host of other countries (Albania) and of course your chief mentors and models, Stalinist Soviet Russia. Did the ends of the Soviet Union justify the means from 1920s to 1980s? Ask the Russians, ask, the Poles, Germans and a host of others who threw off tyranny and became free and you will get an honest answer, rather than the canned "gleat spaceclaft lift off and gleat warr of china crealy visible from space kind of rubbish" from a cowed down and captive population.

The key question is can Japan use the same justification when it went all punk a$$ on China. After all it desperately needed resources and the ends justify the means....

This provides a fascinating insight into the Chinese psyche (if wong is considered representative of that):

(1) Chinese citizens cannot even call China their own country since they have no rights to change anything - like wong said, you don't like it, emigrate! It looks like in China, we basically have a country full of men/women/children without a country! No wonder these fellows have no clue what freedom is. They think freedom starts and ends with the ability to spend $1000.- on a pair of expensive jeans.

(2) The End Justifies the Means: This explains it all why stolen technology is repeatedly parroted by our Chinese biladels on this thread as being examples of "Innovation". Just like freedom, they have no idea what innovation means.

Like I said, fascinating.

Raja bose re-discovering the joys of chiskology, I see...

What Wong also conveniently misses is that in South Korea sustained development and innovation - the type companies like Hyundai and Samsung to name two do on a routine basis - happened after the country transitioned to a democratic form of government. Authoritarian govt are good at building infrastructure because a lot of hard decisions need to be taken which is very bothersome in democratic countries - things like pushing people out of their homes to make way for highways and airports.

But once that's done then value addition from innovation is not so easy to develop in an authoritarian system of governance where everyone is scared to articulate their opinion. Why do you think USSR collapsed? They were going along merrily as long as the low hanging fruits of development were available. But when they were taken and it had to compete with the US in ideas and innovation - well we all know what happened.

Innovation and new ideas thrive in an environment of free articulation. You can't have that in a authoritarian society.

And Wong seems to miss the fact that the first Asian country to do it all in modern times - Japan - never was authoritarian post World War. India has never been authoritarian since its recorded history!

China is in a classic Catch-22. To move to the next level it needs innovation. But to get that the CPC needs to let go. Rock and hard place anyone? :-0

And in the meantime, the mantra is beg, borrow or steal (with emphasis on steal) other people's ideas and innovation. If you don't like it you can always emigrate!?

baidu search of BO Xilai.

http://www.baidu.com/s?wd=%B1%A1%CE%F5% ... nputT=1644

http://forum.dwnews.com/threadshow.php?tid=929434

A chinese forum , where they criticise CCP..

TRANSLATED QUOTE of an anon poster



There is a joke going round in some panda forums-

Prison

Prisoner 1 -- I am here for opposing bo

Prisoner 2- I am here for supporting bo

Both 1 & 2 to prisoner 3.

What are you here for ?

Prisoner 3: I am Bo


recommended browser for viewing -- g chachas chrome...

Very good question. Let's build on that, shall we? Why do the Chinese keep complaining about the "two centuries of humiliation" or whatever at the hands of the Europeans? The Europeans got what they wanted - they got rich off of China. The ends justify the means, no? If any Europeans were uncomfortable with the way their brothers were treating the Chinese, all they had to do was emigrate (to China? LOL). Or maybe "ends justifying the means" only applies to the Chinese?

More to the point - if tomorrow, some other imperial power, like the USA were to take over China (God forbid, and all that), and to begin plundering China all over again, would that be ok, since the "ends justify the means?" After all, Americans are getting rich, and that should be a desirable end for them, no? If any Americans are uncomfortable with treating the Chinese that way, all they have to do is emigrate (instead of protesting against their government policies). Would that be ok with you Chinese?

Dear Chinese, when you steal IP from others who have worked hard to develop it, you do cause a net loss for them. So whose ends justify the means? Yours, or theirs? Their ends are negative because of your means.

Well, we in India have these concepts that only righteousness will triumph, and truth will be victorious, etc. No doubt China also imbibed those concepts, through their already existent Confucianism, or through Buddhism, which spread from India. Here's something for you Chinese posters to think about. The old concepts of righteousness and truth, are the *same thing* as your "ends justify the means," just that these concepts think about the ends thousands of years later, as opposed to you guys, who think of short term ends ten or twenty years down the road. In other words, if you want the ends to be favorable to you even thousands of years down the line, you *have to* abide by the concepts of righteousness and truth.

My guess is, that India and China managed to survive for thousands of years, through Islamic and European depredations, because of our commitment to righteousness. Those are the desirable ends. India today is trying to stay true to those ideals. China is not. We'll see how the ends turn out.

Sudarshan

I think biladel wong is being le-educated in a dark corner by other biladels and undergoing self-criticism for flubbing his lines.

Yes, Japan did get punk a$$ on China and it got Nuked directly for it => TWICE. Quick history lesson: Japan goes punk a$$ on China, US embargoes Japan because of China atrocities, Japan Pearl Harbors US as a response, US fires bombs Japan to hell using incendiaries and tops it off with two fresh Nukes. Sounds good to me. I think the Japanese learned their lesson and I don't think they are going to go punk a$$ on anybody else in our lifetimes.

None of this changes my point. Most, if not all, of Japan's major economic achievements were during a pre-war military dictatorship, post-war military occupation or 1 Party post-war government. Colonialism in China/Japan/Asia has nothing to do with it and isn't even relevant to this discussion. You guys LOVE straw men. The people in Japan and Korea don't care how they became rich, just that they are rich. Park Chung-Hee isn't even talked about in Korea today, even though they owe him everything. Remember, South Korea in 1955 was poorer than EVERYBODY and what Curtis LeMay did to Korean civilians was genocide.

Wong,

Why you no emigrate if you no like Japan in China?

This is exactly what Indians are trying to tell you. China steals IP/proliferates nukes/occupies Tibet etc. saying "ends justify means." China will similarly go down as a direct consequence of these actions. Your actions are already causing the rest of the world to band together against you. Remains to be seen what the sequence of events is, which will be explained to future generations as a "quick history lesson."

Sudarshan

Nice historical revisionism going on here. Japan had nukes dropped on it because it invaded China ? Had they just stuck to invading China and not attacked the US on Dec 7 1941, they'd have just been left to loot the mainland, as they were generally enabled to do for an entire decade from the early 1930s. From a Chinese perspective there wasn't any such thing as WW2 - there had been fullscale warfare going on around the country since a decade prior, including such events as Chang Zheng (long march) and subsequently the Mukden (Shenyang) Incident and Japanese takeover. Too bad Tojo and co didn't take heed of Adm.Yamamoto's warning about waking up a sleeping giant (the US).

What's up with the Ching Chong English??

Is that the state of Indian education ???

Yes, but why did Pearl Harbor happen?? The Japanese just like to randomly attack the world's greatest industrial power of its day??

And who's embargoing China because Tibetans like to self-immolate?? Last I heard every Tibetan in India is under house arrest right now.

the chinese posters are largely silent on the bo xilai incident.. may be they are not authorised to speak.. may be they fear , the famous luxury van .

As much as the US had interests in China and more so elsewhere around the PacRim (e.g. Philippines), it wasn't prepared to initiate war with Japan over it at the time. Domestic political opinion of the kind now enabling such wars did not exist then, more so in the aftermath of the Great Depression. If anything, it had far more interests in Europe, yet stayed out until after Pearl Harbor. History shows that while the US was a willing material contributor to the allied cause in both WW1 and WW2, it took a major attack (e.g. the Lusitania in WW1, Pearl Harbor in WW2) to turn public opinion enough. Absent Dec 7 '41, the US would certainly have materially backed China, but open warfare ? Unlikely. Do Chinese really believe the US nuked Japan to punish it for Nanjing/Unit 731 etc ? Seriously ?

US nuked Japan because of pearl harbor. Pearl harbor happened because of US oil embargo against Japan. US oil embargo was because Japan went punk a$$ in China. It's a series of cause and effect.

What's there to talk about?? He got canned. His antics pissed his boss off (those 9 guys that rule China). Mao sent his son to the Korean front. Bo sent his son to party at Harrow and Oxford. The guy was obviously a hypocrite.

Several years too late - Roosevelt signed the embargo in July 1941 - China had already been under Japanese rule for several years, with atrocities like Nanjing already known. Pearl Harbor attack was not an isolated attack either - it was an early gambit of the Japanese Dutch East Indies campaign, focused on grabbing the Indonesian oilfields. Pearl Harbor itself was to cripple the Pacific Fleet to prevent them from retaliating, though they forgot the carriers and hit the battleships.

July 1941 is before Pearl Harbor. Before that "In 1940, Japan invaded French Indochina in an effort to control supplies reaching China. The United States halted shipments of airplanes, parts, machine tools, and aviation gasoline, which was perceived by Japan as an unfriendly act." Clearly a series of cause and effect and escalating to Japan getting Nuked and occupied. Again, no one believes Japan has the appetite or demographics to go "punk a$$" on anybody else today.

See, this is the difference between your short-term view and long-term views. You look at the present, and you say "nothing has happened to China until now, we are fine, the ends have justified the means." You don't see it as an evolving situation, which will continue to evolve over the next 10, 50, or 200 years. And I'm telling you that in the long term, there will always be consequences. Always. And yes, I do know that the Tibet situation started 50 years ago, in 1959.

I'm sure the Japanese were similarly laughing at their critics in the late 30's or early 40's, saying "we got away with it, the ends have justified the means." Not to mention the British in 19th century India or China.

Have a nice day, saar. As you yourself would say, no point discussing this further. Your short-term-gain paradigm is very different from my (or the Indian) view of things.

Sudarshan

Oh, a sanction here and an embargo there, and a wink and a nod to KMT, a lend-lease program elsewhere... was all the US was inclined upon at the time. Keep in mind that 5 years after nuking Japan, the US was busy helping Japan rebuild and turn into Asia's postwar economic powerhouse through massive trading orders and supplies requests, while on the task of fighting a war with... China. By your logic we could tenuously argue that the US bombed Hiroshima/Nagasaki so it could later kill a few million Chinese conscripts. Cause and effect, and all that.

No, no, no. That is your logic. It certainly isn't mine. The Korean War isn't part of WWII, at least not in any text book I've ever scene. WW2, US was fighting fascism. Korean War, US was fighting a proxy war against communism. Not the same ballpark. Not even the same sport.

To paraphrase Deng, what does it matter whether the war is against fascism or communism to the poor sucker on the wrong side of the barrel ? In any case the Japanese occupation of China was not WW2 either but youre fine with viewing cause and effect there.

Those vans are doing wonders in improving China's H&D, along with generous 401k buy back from, er, "newly approved widows" by big cuddly Govt.

Wong,

What you still no emigrate.

After all if you don't like things your solution is to emigrate, No. After all that is the option the vast majority of Ching Chong Chinese have as well, right. Talk about unfeeling callousness. What a ding dong.

I don't know what kind of world history they teach in your country, but the 2nd Sino-Japanese War is definitely considered part of WW2.

You're Ching Chonging too much for anyone to understand.
Tone the gibberish down a notch if you want me to answer.

Second ? Never mind the fact that you pick just one of two conflicts, it's not even definitively considered the beginning of WW2 - the invasion of Poland by the Wehrmacht in Sept 1939 is the standard definition. China had been roiled in internal civil war and intermittently fighting the Japanese much before that, but that was at best a local conflict no one else got involved with directly, beyond token gestures.

Local conflict?? Is that what your education system teaches you??

The start of WW2 is debatable, but the end of the Pacific Theater of WW2, V-J Day, is not.

The clearest indicator that the 2nd Sino-Japanese War (yes 2nd, the first was over Korea) is not a "local conflict" and part of WW2 is China's permanent security council seat with veto power in the United Nations. Either the ROC or the PROC has always held it. This has always been considered a WW2 victor's club (American terminology, not mine). Seriously, what kind of history do they teach in your country??

Lets point out the crazy twisted mind at work here. The Gleat Lepublic was unable to teach the Nipponese a lesson and hence the USA attack at Hiroshima is now a 'revenge for Nanjing'. Truly a complete re-writing of history. And he said it with ‘book learning’ conviction so this really is the history lesson in Pandaland. So in the Panda wonderland telling, the great Chinese God in the sky told to USA, Thou must drop Fat Boy and Little Man on Japan to revenge me of Nanjing and USA went forth and did so as an arm of the Gleat Lepublic.

What a crock.