Bharat Rakshak

Your ability to debate is really questionable. Inserting words in my mouth is just intellectually dishonest. Saying China didn't fight in WW2, as someone here claims, is just factually wrong. I never said Hiroshima was to avenge Nanking. I said Japanese atrocities lead to American sanctions which then lead to Pearl Harbor. All in the same conflict. No Korean War, No Vietnam War, No 1962 or any other lame straw man you can drag in.

As for emigration. According to the World Bank, more Indians took the advice to leave than anyone other than Mexicans...

Page 25
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTL ... -Ebook.pdf

Incredible. Revision after revision after revision on the same page no less. Panda wonderland. So now Nanjing was not part of atrocities so you just let Japan off for one of the crimes of the century. I hope your overlords know. Hundred lashes and 'Sent down' for re-education you shall...

Meanwhile, I thought you were pro-emigrate? What happened. Changed opinion so quick?

What Revision?? Are you okay?

Sure sounds like what I just wrote:

"I said Japanese atrocities lead to American sanctions which then lead to Pearl Harbor. All in the same conflict. No Korean War, No Vietnam War, No 1962 or any other lame straw man you can drag in."

I am neutral on immigration. I said if you don't like china or south korea, then leave. Obviously a lot of Indians and Mexicans don't like India or Mexico right now. Notice how the South Korean numbers are now way down. I guess more South Koreans are discovering it's better to be a manager at Samsung than a dry cleaner in New Jersey.

Oh to be that blind..... and clueless...

History just rolled over and died in shame.

And your proof is what??

The Sino-Japanese war was a local conflict until Dec 7 '41 conspired to turn Japan into someone else's wartime enemy, not because the atrocities in mainland China, as regrettable as they were, made China an ally. While the US and UK fought a ground war in Europe, Africa, Middle East and even SE Asia, it didn't fight one in China - it just threw Chiang a few bones to keep the Japanese busy with. The one major country in Asia that did stop the Japanese in their tracks in all out war was, of course, India.

Had the Japanese responded by just being a nuisance to US PacRim interests the way US embargoes were to them, the US domestic political opinion would not have gained sufficient force to fight a war. Ditto for them attacking British interests directly.

Separating one from the other because of some politicial fluff about cause is just laughable. V-J day was merely a milestone, it didn't dissipate the underlying stressors that led to the initiation of the Cold War, which directly led to the Korean War, which in turn saw the US assisting Japan's rapid economic ascent as they supplied the coalition forces fighting China.

Well done piling up the trolling credits, by the way. Seek and you shall find

Suraj, wong is just that, a troll. His understanding of history is so pi$$ poor that his blind nationalism forces him to believe Japan was bombed in return for Nanjing. And yet, more Chinese work as serfs for the Japanese and Koreans now than every before. Something to be said about the general outlook - the opium has not yet left the bloodstream.

I hope you do know that if it wasn't for the stupidity of Nehru, even that permanent seat in UNSC would not have been given to China.

I like the tag teaming that the trolls do....1st ashi, then his pal, now wong....I wonder what is the period of this group?

So hiroshima was bombed due to Japan committing atrocities on Chinese ?

So the lahori laaagic here is that the Manhattan project (which had multiple European Jews who fled to amreeka) was started because the japanese attacked china .. and szilard and einstein sahib wrote a letter to potus , o bliss , bliss make the atim bum,.. and otto frisch calculated the critical mass of u-235 to avenge the chinese..

wow...

even zaid hamid has got a clearer thought than this..

FWIW I suspect this crap is being taught in Chinese schools as reality. We are merely getting a glimpse of what passes for reality in Panda Wonderland. Fire away Mr Wong, Fire away.

+100. It is indeed being taught and is very similar to the manufactured history that's taught in Pakistan. No wonder they are traller than mountains, dleeper than oceans friends.

Actually we all forgot to ask Wong one central question. That is both Mainland and Taiwan have a shared history as far as depredations against the country goes. Yet why is it that from a very early period Taiwan showed more innovation and got rich faster than the Mainland?

Care to tell us what your manufactured history says about that Wong?

Well, the Japanese response to the embargoes was Pearl Harbor (what I've been saying for like the 5th time) and the rest, as they say, is history.

You are the product of the Indian education system. I'm the product of the American education system (K-Grad). Considering the US was the most important participant in WW2, I'll take the US version of history over some Indian text book, thank you very much.

US text books teach us about Wellesley-educated Madame Chiang, Doolittle's Raid, Flying Tigers and General Stilwell, etc. This is American history textbooks taught to all American school children. They also mention the massive Indian defections to the Japanese side after the fall of Hong Kong and Singapore (I guess your textbooks skipped over that part) and Indian nationalists trying to join Hitler (Subhas Chandra Bose). Do Indian textbooks skip over the Hitler parts?? I'm seriously curious.

So you can minimalize the Chinese contribution to WW2 all you want. The proof is in the pudding, China's UNSC seat. And it's Indian urban legend that India was ever asked to join the UNSC. Think about it logically. The Indian defections plus that Hitler-thing, the British, for one, weren't going for any of it. Prove me wrong...

The UNSC is a WW2 victor's club that Japan in the 1990s couldn't buy their way in nor can India plead/beg its way in today.

my god the pretentiousness of the misinformed !

PRC,France were WW2 winners?

RoC and even France, officially, were the winners of WW2.

I guess Indian textbooks never taught you there was a French occupation zone of Berlin after the war. I'll trust the American history on WW2 over the Indian version of WW2. Thank you.

wong - indian schools teach extensively about the indian national army, if anything they downplay the role of the regular indian army in ww2

and yes, officially france was a winner, but no one in europe really won

Did France even have a functional military at the end? Some victory.

WRT China lets keep in mind most of the victory actually belonged to the Nationalist Kuomintang who fought the Japanese to a standstill. Only after Japan surrendered did the Commies sweep in from the mountains and claim victory.

The nationalist army that defeated the Japanese, the true victor and one worthy of being praised in a limited way, was then annihilated and victory 'claimed' in 1949. The ironies are breath taking.

All this from a wong who does not live in China even apparently. Let them emigrate indeed....

so china even won the ww2... was neil amstrong chinese by any chance? newton maybe ?

That above statement itself proves that you are no product of an american education system - you are pretty much a product of the Chinese educational system and way of thinking since your natural tendency is to believe that every country's education system tries to hide stuff which they think others might consider embarrassing. Perhaps you thought that just like when we ask such questions to your biladel drones here and they fall silent, your above statement would shut up the Indian posters here.

Guess what biladel?! In India they teach us everything about the Indian National Army, Subhash Chandra Bose, how he met Hitler etc. And guess some more.....members INA and Subhash Bose even today are considered patriotic Indians and heroes becoz they fought for Indian's freedom. Unlike China which tries to get rid of its past (Cultural Revolution anyone?) and tries to project a false tinseltown glorious image which it thinks will endear itself to the west (like putting lipstick on a pig), India has no such stupid insecurities. The west may think Hitler was the worst, as far as Indians are concerned, the British were infinitely worst when they ruled, looted and starved India for over 200 years. It doesn't matter what other people think about Indian history, it matters much more what Indians think about Indian history - that is the difference between a autocratic country and a democratic country. I guess in China, the opposite is considered a hallmark of 'success' and 'innovation'...after all if you don't like the manufactured Chinese history, emigrate!

Like I said many times here, by trying to mock us and engage in 'my d1ck is bigger' claims, our biladels drones inadvertently teach us more about the insecurities of present day China and their biases than if they openly did an honest introspection. So keep it coming biladels....


Man oh man! These drones crack me up every time. Talk about manufactured glory just like Huawei's innovation. BTW the Brits didn't want China in the UNSC either. And guess who provided the largest volunteer army in the WWII? Your chinese biladels??

http://www.amazon.com/China-Albert-Eins ... 067401538X





I googled einstein and china , hoping to find some benis material.. came across this interesting book..

Oh man...
I had to spend 2 pages trying to convince you China fought in WW2, something the US, France, Great Britain, Japan, Soviet Union and Germany all accepts. I'm not going to waste 2 more pages convincing you Hitler is NOT considered a "good guy" according to the US education system. That would be an exercise in futility.

Americans are obsessed with WW2. It's their "finest hour", "greatest generation", et cetera, etc. They study it constantly and make Hollywood films about it all the time. Like I said, I'll trust the American version of WW2 before I'll accept the Indian version since the American version is accepted by most credible historians and backed by thousands of hours of war footage.

You give far too much importance to the UNSC permanent seat, considering even your own nation has no balls to use it for anything other than defensively veto Tibet/Taiwan resolutions. Perhaps you think it's a lightning rod to use against us. But let's be serious. It didn't even help you do anything against us.

I'd like to know what it is that China has done in open defiance of UN and UNSC like the Indian nuclear tests or assorted spankings we've dished out to Pakistan in 1971 and 1999. Shooting your own people doesn't count. As I recall, China was the most shrill P5 member after the '98 tests, not counting little fishes like Norway or Australia. So then, what did your P5 membership help you do on those occasions ? Weapons embargoes by others (which are now gone) ? There's one against China since Tiananmen days...

On that matter, I'd also like to know what China has done for the UN per se. Peacekeeping missions ? Contributions ?

India got to get away with playing both sides - weaopns from Soviet bloc, investment from west, ignoring the existing power system when it suited it and get away with it, work to benefit it when it could, actively work towards ensuring a great influence for itself when it comes to taking the current system apart and replacing it

It's a cool entry to have on our business card and everything. But we've gotten away with murder without it anyway.

While you trust it blindly, you forget one thing - history is written by winners. It is upto you to take it blindly or follow the other dictum - trust, but verify.

I would like to address this innovation "Catch-22" because that is some excellent BS. Too bad it's not backed by facts.

Some of the greatest inventions of the 20th Century came out of authoritarian governments. The Nazis gave us countless things from jet engines to assault rifles to rockets. The Manhattan Project was run by the Army Corp of Engineers, hardly a democracy. Let's look at all the innovations that came out of the labs of GE, AT&T, Apple, IBM and DuPont. Too bad none of those corporations are run like democracies. Most employees call Jobs a dictator. I won't even talk about all the innovations that came out imperial China.

This innovation Catch-22 sure is some feel good BS. It's just not true.

Folks, please stop telling wong to emigrate. He's already US based.

Therein lies your problem. Would it kill you to look at things independently instead of having to 'trust' somebody's version? Exactly where did the Chinese fight against which armies in WW2? Was it not mostly between KMT and imperial Japanese? Did any Chinese army even fight outside their then borders? I am open for new info here.

So now things have veered over to the II world war and comrade Wong's "trust" of the American view of WW II, have they? If you ask the Russians, they will tell you that they are mightily miffed at how the US/UK successfully claimed credit for essentially doing nothing. Hitler's armies were on the run all over Europe from 1941 (Stalingrad) - from the Russian army. The western propaganda about how "General Winter" defeated the Germans is just that - propaganda, or more accurately, a half-truth. The full truth is, the Russian resistance at Kiev, Kursk, and Stalingrad was ferocious, and wore down even the mighty German SS troops. The Soviet Union did initially lose Kiev to the Germans, but regained it later.

Beyond Stalingrad, the Germans were on the run pretty much everywhere on the eastern front, from Ukraine and Poland, Albania and Romania, Czechoslovakia and Hungary, and eventually even in Germany itself (the part that later became East Germany). There's a reason why all these nations came under the communist orbit.

The western hope was that the Germans would destroy the USSR. When that didn't materialize, they decided they couldn't let the Russians take all the credit for defeating Nazi Germany, so they opened their "Second Front" at Normandy, with their usual narcissistic propaganda to back it up. In the end, it was still the Russians who took Berlin. The use of the nuclear option against Japan was equally unnecessary. The Russians were beginning to turn their attention on Japan after the German surrender, and Japan couldn't have held on alone anyway.

Surviving the Battle of Britain, and not buckling under the German Blitzkrieg, is the UK's sole genuine contribution to World War II. The rest of the British "victories" were accomplished by troops from British colonies, such as Egypt or India. India being the most populous colony, naturally contributed the most troops. Britain still hasn't paid off the war debt to India - no surprises there. If not for the ready manpower from her colonies, there was no way a country the size of the UK could have taken on the German war machine, which had troops from all over Europe fighting for it.

This is the reason why for a long time after WW II got over, the Russians were still referring to it as the "Great Patriotic War." Simply because they put in the bulk of the effort and took in the most casualties (normalized to their population). But their view of the matter never stood a chance against the American and British propaganda machinery - CNN and BBC. This is probably the "thousands of hours of war footage" that comrade Wong is referring to.

Sudarshan

The timeline is well documented below. As I wasn't even born yet in 1940 and wasn't an eyewitness, I ultimately do have to trust somebody's version of history, the American one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... at=desktop

Besides, let's talk about how democracy equals innovation. I need an Indian member to explain how Sputnik came out of Soviet Russia if democracy is a pre-requisite for innovation.

^ That is indeed a wong assumption, ********y isn't a pre-requisite for innovation. Sputnik did come out of ****** Russia and we must grant them that despite the fact that the ****** Russians did follow a fake form of communism.

PS: What's it with the forum software blanking out certain words?

A lot of the Indian posters above, seem to take great delight in berating and baiting our Chinese friends and posters.

That's not nice. China may be what it may be. It is our greatest rival.

But in todays day and age, one fights not by acting like the great kahuna on a page made of electrons...but by getting up in the morning, working hard as hell, and making sure that what one did during the day was good enough to beat your competitor.

So as Indians , lets do that. Fight the Chinese, sure, but by working towards wealth, goodness and prosperity. Not shaming them on an internet forum with arguments that make the writer sound like a whiny little female dog.

Let the Chinese be. We'll show em with the quality of our work..our strong social institutions and our democracy, peace-loving chaltha hai nature and our vegetarianism.

We were the number 1 country in the world, for 4250 of our 4500 years. It's time we get that rank back from the other fly-by-night operators.

And we can see how well that autocratic regime withstood the test of time eh?

BTW I saw you give the example of Apple as a hallmark of innovation. Guess what....in your glolious Chinese system, someone like Steve Jobs would have been shot or imprisoned, so there would have been no Apple.


Really?? The only people I hear saying that is the Chinese. Heck, Great Britain did not even consider the Chinese a participant and opposed their UNSC seat.



My dear biladel wong, nobody considers Hitler a "good guy". Please read my post carefully (just like american education teaches you):


In simple English the above means: For the west, Hitler was the worst. But for the Indians, Hitler was bad but the British were worse hence, Hitler at that point in time looked like the lesser of two evils. That does not imply that Hitler was considered a "good guy". Or the Japanese for that matter - the other Axis power, Subhash Chandra Bose approached. BTW why should I care about who is good or bad according to the US education system?? I am an Indian hence I care about the views of the Indian education system but, perhaps you are an American, in which case your blind parroting of Chinese glory becomes all the more hilarious.

Wong,

youre right that even totalitarian regimes are innovative.

Given its information control laws, I'm not sure about current and potential Chinese competence in the knowledge management and information technology field , which is increasingly enormous part of our collective economies.

More on the PRC's UNSC veto power:
UNSC veto count by member
Veto power


And of course, the UNSC resolutions against India:
UN resolutions and reports
Good luck enforcing them. 200 million Pakistanis are depending on you.

To further confuse our Chinese posters here are two Indians who, from their perspective, have diametrically opposite contributions to the Sino-Japanese war:
Dwarkanath Kotnis

Justice Radhabinod Pal

bangladesh is a UN member.. somehow the veto power did not work..

A political crisis will not stop China
http://www.ftchinese.com/story/001043927/en


However, in the world, some people do live on wishful thinkings.


That's some one who learns from his past wrong judgements.

Rockets were first developed by Chinese. Later on Tipu Sultan in India developed the precursor of modern missile and used it in a battle against the British East India company. The British took a great interest in Tipu Sultan's rocket and further developed (or actually copied) it into the "Congrave Rocket". the Congrave Rocket then lead to rapid development in rocket technology into what it is today.

BTW, the Great Britain and the world as well did not even consider India as a country by then, right?

Sir, the result is more important. China was, is and will be owning the UNSC permanent seat, according to her devotion in the WW2. Furthermore, the Chinese fights against the US in the Korean War, against the Soviet in the Sino-Soviet border, won China the reputation of a great Asia and World political and military power, as early as in the 1950s and 1960s. A status India could even obtain by now.

Somebody here are boasting that India can get aid from both Soviet and the US. Sir, it was not because India was strong, rather than the opposite. We could find easily 100 other countries who could achieve the same.

Sir, your victories against the dirty poor and vulnerable Pakistan or Sri Lanka (both former Indias but smaller) won you nothing significant in the world stage. You need fight and win at least a single power before being recognized as a power.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ma ... sfeed=true

"He made himself look like someone who could save the world," said He Shu, a Chongqing historian. "[But] his 'Sing red, strike black' campaign was exactly like the methods of the cultural revolution in mobilising public opinion and abandoning the legal system." That did not make Bo a leftist, he added: "I think he was an opportunist. People like him don't believe in anything except their personal interests."

Critics accuse Bo of flouting even basic legal safeguards and running the municipality of 32 million people – almost the population of Canada – as a fiefdom.

"Many Chongqing residents feel the city is safer and more beautiful now, but Germany under Hitler was the safest in its history," said lawyer Li Zhuang.

The anti-gang campaign saw "crazy and massive detentions" of people who were mostly innocent, said Li. He was one of them. His client, alleged triad boss Gong Gangmo, said he confessed after more than a week of torture. But when Li used the testimony in Gong's defence, he too was arrested, accused of falsifying evidence and strapped into a "tiger chair" – a sleep-deprivation device – for three days and nights.
.....
Eighteen-year-old Zhu Guilin said he usually preferred pop music, but relished competing with his class in the red song competitions that swept Chongqing at Bo's behest. "It reminds people living now to never forget what happened before. I don't know about others, but to me, singing red songs gave me the inspiration to make a bigger contribution to the city," he said.

The singers who once crowded parks and squares – often government workers who had little choice, or pensioners with time to spare – have mostly given up or turned to other tunes. Chongqing TV, which axed adverts and lively evening fare in favour of political programming, is frenziedly overhauling its schedules again.

...........

apparently his wife was involved in the suspicious death of a british businessman as well.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ma ... a-bo-xilai

as usual in asian elites, his children attend the playing fields of harrow and eton (hopefully with better grades than Yuvraj got )