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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 12:25 
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wrdos wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:
Really?? The only people I hear saying that is the Chinese. Heck, Great Britain did not even consider the Chinese a participant and opposed their UNSC seat.


BTW, the Great Britain and the world as well did not even consider India as a country by then, right?


And that has what to do with the Chinese getting a UNSC seat? :-? If one were to judge fairly, it is Taiwan which deserves the UNSC permanent seat as it originally had, not PRC. But then beg, borrow or steal seems to be PRC's national motto. After all end justifies the means, right? :roll:

But on the other hand I keep hearing a lot of concern from our Chinese biladels on this thread as to how they are perceived in the west with one of them neatly defining history as being, whatever version of events is accepted by American historians - insecure much? :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 12:25 
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wrdos wrote:
BTW, the Great Britain and the world as well did not even consider India as a country by then, right?

Explain. Hint: Olympic Games.
Quote:
Sir, your victories against the dirty poor and vulnerable Pakistan or Sri Lanka (both former Indias but smaller) won you nothing significant in the world stage. You need fight and win at least a single power before being recognized as a power.

Pakistan is China's and America's pet, armed by the two of you, and kicked around by us. I'm curious. Why didn't you come in and help them ? Isn't your friendship deeper than the deepest ocean and higher than the highest mountain ? What about this handsome couple ?
Image
Or this virile leader ?
Image
How can you not help them in their time of need ?


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 13:01 
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Suraj wrote:
Explain. Hint: Olympic Games.

So what? Scotland and Wales join Olympic every 4 years now, right?

Sir, please don't deny the facts.

1. India was not an independent country but simply a British colony, during and right after the WWII.
2. The British Indian armed forces had almost all of their mid to high level officers for the British.
3. The sacrifice of the Indian soldiers in the WWII, I really appreciate it, was counted as British rather than Indian.

And many people here are boasting even the Opium war, as if it was a victory of India over China.

Sir, such statements won you more laughter than pride or respect that you expected.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 13:08 
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And your victory against Pakistan, or another vulnerable country that "supported by US and/or China", is not significant as you thought. Tons of such victories can be found among the third world countries especially in Africa.

I would repeat once more, you need to win a power to be recognized as a power.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 13:30 
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AL hundi reporting on its master
http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... epage=true
BEIJING, March 31, 2012
China detains six people, shuts websites over coup rumours

ANANTH KRISHNAN

Chinese authorities said on Saturday they had detained six people and closed down 16 websites for spreading rumours on the Internet of an attempted coup in Beijing earlier this month. They also announced new restrictions to “punish” two popular Twitter-like microblogging services.

The 16 websites were shut down for “fabricating or disseminating online rumors” of “military vehicles entering Beijing and something wrong going on in Beijing”, the State Internet Information Office (SIIO) said in a statement reported by the official Xinhua news agency.

Six microbloggers were also detained for spreading this information online, the Beijing Municipal Bureau of Public Security, the police authority, said, adding that “an undisclosed number of people who had disseminated similar rumours on the Internet were also admonished and educated”.

China’s two most popular Twitter-like microblogging services, Sina and Tencent weibo which boast more than three hundred million users, were abuzz with rumours of political infighting among China’s leaders for much of the past month, sparked by the political scandal surrounding the ousting of Politburo member and Chongqing Party Secretary Bo Xilai.

With the central government releasing little information on Mr. Bo’s fate following the brief one-line sentence announcing his removal on March 15, rumours proliferated.

The online speculation reached fever-pitch on the night of March 19, when U.S.-based newspapers linked to the banned Falun Gong group reported of an attempted coup and gunshots being heard in central Beijing. This was followed by some Chinese microbloggers posting pictures on weibo of military vehicles on Beijing's main avenues. The photographs were later found to have been taken from rehearsals for a military parade in 2010, while the normalcy of life in the Chinese capital and President Hu Jintao leaving on overseas visits shortly thereafter suggested that the speculation was without basis.

The SIIO said the rumours had “a very bad influence on the public” and the websites were closed “in accordance with laws” for failing to stop their spread. Sina and Tencent weibo, on which most of the rumours spread, had been “criticised and punished accordingly” by the authorities, the statement said.

Both microblogging services on Saturday suspended commenting functions that allow users to leave their own comments on others’ posts, a feature that is popular on both microblogs but not offered on Twitter.

The move was an apparent attempt to curb online discussions and send a warning to both services.

Tencent said in a statement that it would suspend the commenting function until April 3 “to clean up rumours and other illegal information”, while Sina released a similar statement also announcing it would suspend comments for the same period of time.

Beijing police authorities also warned Internet users in a statement on Friday “to abide by laws and be vigilant against online rumours”.

The authorities’ response to clamp down on rumours brought wide criticism from many microbloggers on Saturday, with calls for an approach that provided more transparency and access to information rather than imposed further restrictions.

“Can you stop rumours by blocking comments?,” Zhang Xin, the CEO of SOHO China, one of the country’s biggest real estate developers, wrote to her more than 3.25 million followers on Sina Weibo.

“The best way to prevent rumours is to have openness and transparency,” she said. “The more you stop the news, the more rumours you will have.” Within hours, the message was forwarded by more than 11,000 people.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 13:37 
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wrdos wrote:
Suraj wrote:
Explain. Hint: Olympic Games.

So what? Scotland and Wales join Olympic every 4 years now, right?

Sir, please don't deny the facts.

Additional fact: China wasn't a country until Oct 1 1949. It did not exist as a political entity with a recognized leadership until that day, and was as nebulous an entity as India was.

India existed as one from Aug 15 1947.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 13:42 
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wrdos wrote:
And your victory against Pakistan, or another vulnerable country that "supported by US and/or China", is not significant as you thought. Tons of such victories can be found among the third world countries especially in Africa.

So much for being ironclad allies, always ready to help your friends in need, of course. Arm them, sing their praises and then walk away when they get taken to the barn. You have lots of friends and allies, don't you ?


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 13:47 
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So you accept that India was not an independent country during and after the WWII?

:D As for China, I respect your right of owning a personal opinion. But the fact is China is recognized by the international community as a founding country of the UN with a permanent seat in the UNSC, a club of 5 major winner countries of the World War II.

Suraj wrote:
Additional fact: China wasn't a country until Oct 1 1949. It did not exist as a political entity with a recognized leadership until that day. India existed as one from Aug 15 1947.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 13:54 
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wrdos wrote:
So you accept that India was not an independent country during and after the WWII?

:D As for China, I respect your right of owning a personal opinion. But the fact is China is recognized by the international community as a founding country of the UN with a permanent seat in the UNSC, a club of 5 major winner countries of the World War II.

Suraj wrote:
Additional fact: China wasn't a country until Oct 1 1949. It did not exist as a political entity with a recognized leadership until that day. India existed as one from Aug 15 1947.

India wasn't an independent country in 1944. Neither was France. China wasn't a country at all - it was a collection of communist/nationalist/Japanese/warlord/lawless regions. All that existed was a Chinese representative at the table, same as France, who were under German rule. The 'international community' didn't even recognize the rulers of the Chinese landmass until 1971.

As for the Opium Wars, it was between UK and China, not India. Yes, many Indian companies and people, including some well known modern business dynasties, benefited by making a lot of money from that trade. So what ?


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 14:02 
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The drones who talk schlong about the UN security membership should know what India did for People's Republic of China.

India moves resolution supporting People's Republic of China's admission into the United Nations [U.N.]
Quote:
At the fifth session of the United Nations General Assembly held at Flushing Meadows in 1950, India introduced a resolution supporting entry of the Communist-ruled People's Republic of China [P.R.C] into the United Nations. This rare video clip, below, shows India's then permanent representative to the United Nations [U.N], Mr. B.N. Rau1 reading out the text in support of P.R.C.


There is a video of that motion in that page.
Does anyone know how can I embed that into BR? I can not get the ID of that video.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 14:06 
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Sir, then India is a collection of Congress party/people's party/communists/lawless rebelling regions/Chinese and Pakistan occupied regions (according to your viewpoints of the border), right?

The current Chinese government was not a ruler of China until 1949, and not allowed into the UN as a representative of China until 1971.

But China as a country, is a founding country of UN as a winner of World War 2, while India is neither.

You can deny it, but facts will never change. Sorry I don't have more time to waste on this topic anymore.

Have a nice day, bye.

Suraj wrote:
India wasn't an independent country in 1944. Neither was France. China wasn't a country at all - it was a collection of communist/nationalist/Japanese/warlord/lawless regions. All that existed was a Chinese representative at the table, same as France, who were under German rule. The 'international community' didn't even recognize the rulers of the Chinese landmass until 1971.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 14:17 
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wrdos wrote:
But China as a country, is a founding country of UN as a winner of World War 2, while India was neither.

No, a Chinese reprensentative was present at the UN founding. The same person (Chiang) did not even have control over China at the time. And as it turned out, he never did. Between the dissolution of the Qing Empire in 1911 and Oct 1 1949, there existed no de jure administrative entity over the Chinese mainland for any reasonable duration: there was no country. In India's case, someone always had coercive control over all of the landmass - either from London or New Delhi.

I'm not sure how different political parties amount to no country. Of course, China is not democratic, so you probably have no idea what multiple political parties mean. Would you also state that the US is not a country but a collection of Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, redneck etc regions, for example ?

Fact: India has only ever seen territories integrated amicably or by force, since Aug 15 1947. Examples:
* Jammu & Kashmir (war against Pakistan)
* Junagadh (peaceful accession)
* Hyderabad (war against Nizam)
* Goa (war against Portugal)
No territory has successfully seceded formally, ever.

Lawless regions ? Any p*ss-filled alleyway in Wuxi would qualify for that term too.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 16:51 
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^^^^^

Is this some sort of Chinese history "mash-up" made by Indians ???

The warlord era that followed the collapse of the Qing Dynasty had long ended. Chiang had already consolidated power in China around himself, the KMT, and the Republic of China by the start of the war. (Yes, Mao was around then but he did not have political control of China, just like your Naxalites today.) In addition, Chiang was a recognized head of state by all the world major powers. As my picture from the last page showed, he obviously had a seat at the table.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 17:01 
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Raja Bose wrote:
The west may think Hitler was the worst, as far as Indians are concerned, the British were infinitely worst when they ruled, looted and starved India for over 200 years.



Churchill was a "good guy", at least in any history book I've ever read and no I'm not interested in reading Indian history text books. In fact, Churchill is considered one of the greatest men of the 20th century. So by the comparative property, if you say Hitler was better than Churchill (the British), then yes, that pretty much means Hitler is a "good guy" in my book.

Here's an easier example...

"The West may think Suzuki Maruti makes the worst cars, but we Indians think Ferrari S.p.A. makes cars much worst than Suzuki Marutis."

The non-Indian interpretation would be: these Indians think Suzuki Marutis are pretty damn good cars if they think Ferraris are much worst.

And seriously, the number of Vetos China cast in the P5 UNSC has zero significance to the fact China fought and won in World War II. Zero Significance. Another lame straw man.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 17:27 
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mahadevbhu wrote:
Wong,

youre right that even totalitarian regimes are innovative.

Given its information control laws, I'm not sure about current and potential Chinese competence in the knowledge management and information technology field , which is increasingly enormous part of our collective economies.


Good, back on topic. This is a thread on the Chinese economy and innovation obviously will be very important to the Chinese economy this decade.

I know for a fact you can't post Tibetan self-immolation videos on YouKu. That video will be taken down very quickly.

So what??? Has that stopped China from creating "national champions" in the internet space (a vital battleground in the information economy race between the US and China) ??
The Chinese internet economy is still thriving today. The censorship hasn't stopped anything. China IS (not a WILL - an IS) surpassing the US internet economy as we speak.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 18:09 
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Hmmph. Again, mystifying why cheeni posters seem to care so much about what we argumentative Indians think of them.

That said, its true that PRC is P5 and we are not. Period. WWII and who did what then is irrelevant to present day reality. I have accepted it and moved on. We will be tested when (and not if) UNSC passes binding resolutions against us. Until then the value of a UNSC perma seat is all idle talk only.

Regarding innovation, the PRC economy has shown quite a bit of innovation. So what if its borrowed or stolen. Its there and it works. I'd rather Dilli too do what is in our interests un-apologetically. Like we have in the pharma patents cases. Sorry if this rather D&G opinion diverts from the thread topic. Butr it is my opinion and I'm not gonna let my jingo-giri distort what I rationally think is the truth.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 19:13 
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Hari Seldon wrote:
Hmmph. Again, mystifying why cheeni posters seem to care so much about what we argumentative Indians think of them.

That said, its true that PRC is P5 and we are not. Period. WWII and who did what then is irrelevant to present day reality. I have accepted it and moved on. We will be tested when (and not if) UNSC passes binding resolutions against us. Until then the value of a UNSC perma seat is all idle talk only.

Regarding innovation, the PRC economy has shown quite a bit of innovation. So what if its borrowed or stolen. Its there and it works. I'd rather Dilli too do what is in our interests un-apologetically. Like we have in the pharma patents cases. Sorry if this rather D&G opinion diverts from the thread topic. Butr it is my opinion and I'm not gonna let my jingo-giri distort what I rationally think is the truth.


Good, let's all stop talking about WWII then.

I'm here to learn the latest China bashing from the Western Press and its many different regurgitations.

I would love to discuss IDEAS about the Chinese economy:

"The Innovation Catch-22 for Authoritarian China"
"China's ARTIFICIALLY reduced birth rate meaning it will grow old before it grows rich"
"China's economy will collapse because it OWES Trillions of Gadzillions of Yuan to ITSELF"
"Authoritarian China is inherently unstable even though the average Chinese dynasty is older than the United States"
"China's Sex Ratio, Gender Equality & the Competition for Brides on GDP Growth"

These and many more IDEAS I would love to discuss with Indian members. You do represent the top 8% of India. The crème de la crème of Indian society, so your ideas do matter.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 20:30 
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Oh, man, do you (and your masters?) have a persecution complex or what? Seriously, get over it!


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 20:54 
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^^^^

I gave 5 very relevant topics on the Chinese economy. You dont want to discuss any of them??

How about Chinese HSR and business productivity??


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 21:30 
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http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2012/03 ... p-attempt/

Last week’s uprising may be a sign of things to come for communist China. 2012 serves as a watermark year, for many of China’s old guards will retreat into retirement.

Now, in their place, is a power vacuum waiting to be filled by the princelings, or offspring, of Mao-era revolutionaries. At stake is the control of the second biggest economy in the world and the ‘benefits’ that come with it.

With China minting a new billionaire every twenty days, 90% of which are communist party members, there is a lot to fight for. But will this end up as another Tianenman?

The Beijing coup was nothing less than a pre-emptive strike against one of China’s most charismatic and strongest new leaders, Bo Xilai. He is the first casualty in the chess match for preeminence in the fracturing government of China.




Who was Bo Xilai?

Bo Xilai, a princeling, was the talk of China for weeding out corruption in Chonqqing, a special development zone where corruption knows no bounds.

Bo marched into Chongqing and cleaned house, making him the poster boy for the so-called ‘just’ communist party. However, as the Chinese saying goes, “the nail that stands up gets pounded down,” and so did Mr. Bo.

For now, the communist propaganda machine is in overdrive — excoriating the man once hailed as the savior of China.

Allegations fly that Mr.Bo engaged in ruthless tactics — a red terror — to root out corruption in Chongqing. To make matters worse, the communists are also alleging that Mr. Bo was dirty, accusing him of connections with the Macau underworld and asking what part, if any, they played in his ousting.

The most recent scandal involves Neil Heywood who soon died after a business disagreement with Bo and/or his wife. The Heywood story is particularly troubling because his body was cremated. Thus, no real cause of death could be proven.



Trust vs. Corruption

So, what does this have to do with governing China? Everything.

Mr. Bo was a powerful man who won the hearts of the locals. As a matter of fact, upon his dismissal, the Chongqing forces were called out to quash any possible uprisings.

Bo was a man that Beijing feared; and when a person is feared by Beijing, they inevitably get cut down to size. In China, when a party member steps over the line, he or she is accused of corruption and tried before the press.

But how much of this can be believed? In China, a country who loses hundreds of billions of dollars to corruption, clean politicians stand out.

China’s current leader, Hu Jintao, has earned the moniker, ‘The Butcher of Tibet,’ for squelching dissent and maintaining order over the Buddhists. Supposedly, Hu Jintao’s son and Wen Jiabao’s wife have also been linked to corruption, but that is another case. As for the leaders of the party blaming Bo for his overzealous pursuit of corruption, can that be believed? One has to wonder whom to believe.

Beijing rolls on and Mr. Bo’s deeds and memories are being cleansed from the annals of the city of Chongqing as we speak. His policies have been overturned and the presence of his right hand man is being erased from the public eye.



Why 2012 is Problematic

The problem is that in 2012, over 60% of the leaders of China’s communist party and at least six members of the all-powerful Standing committee will be vacating their spots.

To those of us who enjoy free elections, this fact means little to nothing. In China, however, things are different. Throughout her 2000-plus years of history, China has consistently forced the leaders to change by the muzzle of a gun. In a country where Chinese-on-Chinese is typical, the party is nervous.

Bo represented the biggest challenge to the party. As a charismatic, beloved leader of the people, he was the first to fall. There are at least two contingents who stood to gain from his demise, but who will be next?

The juggling for the right to power over China has begun.

With Mr.Bo out of the way, Beijing can rest easier. Or can they? Surely the most recent coup attempts were no Tiananmen Square, they were worse. While the protests of 1989 were a sign of the times, and youthful zealots were calling for more transparency, last week was much more alarming.

Where Power and Loyalty Lie

The men in this new game are playing for keeps. They are not armed with Steno notebooks and pens quoting democratic slogans, they are men in possession of massive arsenals and nuclear warheads.

Hu Jintao and the communist press have reminded the military where their loyalty must lie. To punctuate this point, certain police forces were neutered—their power curtailed.


References & Image Credits:
(1) The Epoch Times
(2) Shanghaiist.com
(3) China Daily


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 21:58 
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wong wrote:
I would love to discuss IDEAS about the Chinese economy:

"The Innovation Catch-22 for Authoritarian China"
"China's ARTIFICIALLY reduced birth rate meaning it will grow old before it grows rich"
"China's economy will collapse because it OWES Trillions of Gadzillions of Yuan to ITSELF"
"Authoritarian China is inherently unstable even though the average Chinese dynasty is older than the United States"
"China's Sex Ratio, Gender Equality & the Competition for Brides on GDP Growth"

These and many more IDEAS I would love to discuss with Indian members. You do represent the top 8% of India. The crème de la crème of Indian society, so your ideas do matter.


Yawn. You still haven't figured out how markets operate then, do you? This board is a free and fair market of ideas and discussions. Some sell, others don't.

So *you* want to discuss something? Sure. Go ahead, make it interesting, factual, worthwhile, relevant, realistic and all that.If it is worthwhile, the free market will do the rest. But you can;t get 'discussion' on *your* ideas by fiat. Hmmph.

For the record, I find the 'ideas' you mention rather stale. Seems to me they only serve your megalomania than any knowledge gain. But then that's my opinion only. Don;t count on moi to 'engage' your discussions. Chale aate hain...


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 22:00 
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wong wrote:
The warlord era that followed the collapse of the Qing Dynasty had long ended. Chiang had already consolidated power in China around himself, the KMT, and the Republic of China by the start of the war. (Yes, Mao was around then but he did not have political control of China, just like your Naxalites today.) In addition, Chiang was a recognized head of state by all the world major powers.

Recognized head of state ? He never had control over the country he claimed to rule. In fact, no one was in any position to assert authority over the country until Oct 1 1949. All he ever ruled for any duration was a tiny island off the coast, which was paradoxically 'recognized' as the 'representative of all China' until 1971, due to bizarre Cold War era compulsions. That's about as meaningful as asserting that His Holiness The Dalai Lama is the ruler of Tibet today, when all he does is run a government in exile.

The difference in India's case was that Aug 15 1947 was a transfer of power; before and after, a clear authority had control over territory. In China, it amounted to various sets of jokers intermittently slapping each other for 30+ years in between being sucked dry by the west and ransacked by Japanese.

Chinese (and Pakistanis) love to point out the Naxalite movement. I'd like to respond that GoI could steamroll them down, but they don't. Unlike an authoritarian state, we have to be measured in applying coercive force against fellow citizenry. However their record at preempting and squeezing dead assorted militancies is not in doubt. Like I mentioned previously, there's not a single successful formal secession from a militant movement. Ultimately GoI preempts, outlasts, kills or uses other dirty tricks. Oh, and the leader of the Naxalite movement was killed by the paramilitary in late 2011.

Anyway it's good to see the nonsense about 'gleat powel with UNSC veto' peter out; it means squat when you can neither affirm your own interests nor protect that of your greatest ally's. The only vetoes (of a total six) that China has successfully made were those either in conjunction with USSR/Russia (whose weight still counts far more) or beating down Taiwan membership motions by powerful nations like... Guatemala or Macedonia.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 22:32 
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Hari Seldon wrote:
wong wrote:
I would love to discuss IDEAS about the Chinese economy:

"The Innovation Catch-22 for Authoritarian China"
"China's ARTIFICIALLY reduced birth rate meaning it will grow old before it grows rich"
"China's economy will collapse because it OWES Trillions of Gadzillions of Yuan to ITSELF"
"Authoritarian China is inherently unstable even though the average Chinese dynasty is older than the United States"
"China's Sex Ratio, Gender Equality & the Competition for Brides on GDP Growth"

These and many more IDEAS I would love to discuss with Indian members. You do represent the top 8% of India. The crème de la crème of Indian society, so your ideas do matter.


Yawn. You still haven't figured out how markets operate then, do you? This board is a free and fair market of ideas and discussions. Some sell, others don't.

So *you* want to discuss something? Sure. Go ahead, make it interesting, factual, worthwhile, relevant, realistic and all that.If it is worthwhile, the free market will do the rest. But you can;t get 'discussion' on *your* ideas by fiat. Hmmph.

For the record, I find the 'ideas' you mention rather stale. Seems to me they only serve your megalomania than any knowledge gain. But then that's my opinion only. Don;t count on moi to 'engage' your discussions. Chale aate hain...


So in the free market of ideas, Indians would rather spend pages and pages bashing a HSR rail system that has absolutely nothing to do with them or waste bandwidth on a non-coup in a Chinese economy thread? You want stale. That's stale. If students erecting liberty statues in the middle of Tiananmen Square isn't going to bring down the CPC, some guy from Chongqing certainly isn't going to either. Like it or not, the CPC is here to stay for at least another 200 years easy. If all we are going to do here is regurgitate some Friedman and Paul Samuelson ideas on China with a little bit of Indian Schadenfreude and Gordan Chang idiocy thrown in, that's the REAL wake-me-up YAAAAWN. WHY??? Because you guys have been doing the same thing for at least 10 years here and been dead wrong. I'll worry for China only when you guys change your opinion and only as a contrarian sign.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 22:58 
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wong wrote:
So in the free market of ideas, Indians would rather spend pages and pages bashing a HSR rail system that has absolutely nothing to do with them or waste bandwidth on a non-coup in a Chinese economy thread? You want stale. That's stale. If students erecting liberty statues in the middle of Tiananmen Square isn't going to bring down the CPC, some guy from Chongqing certainly isn't going to either. Like it or not, the CPC is here to stay for at least another 200 years easy. If all we are going to do here is regurgitate some Friedman and Paul Samuelson ideas on China with a little bit of Indian Schadenfreude and Gordan Chang idiocy thrown in, that's the REAL wake-me-up YAAAAWN. WHY??? Because you guys have been doing the same thing for at least 10 years here and been dead wrong. I'll worry for China only when you guys change your opinion and only as a contrarian sign.


Not only that ... in a free market of ideas a drone also spends pages and pages praising the super-duper value of HSR and sing paens to the CCP .. what to do ... we are like this onlee :D


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 23:01 
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>> Like it or not, the CPC is here to stay for at least another 200 years easy

that is also my fervent and pious hope :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 23:09 
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Singha wrote:
>> Like it or not, the CPC is here to stay for at least another 200 years easy

that is also my fervent and pious hope :mrgreen:


And let's hope India stays "democratic" for as long as possible too. Looks like we are in full agreement.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 23:20 
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wong wrote:

Churchill was a "good guy", at least in any history book I've ever read and no I'm not interested in reading Indian history text books. In fact, Churchill is considered one of the greatest men of the 20th century. So by the comparative property, if you say Hitler was better than Churchill (the British), then yes, that pretty much means Hitler is a "good guy" in my book.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
That is exactly my point. Your Churchill may have been a "good guy" for the British, he certainly was not as far as the Indians are concerned. All history can be seen from different viewpoints. I am sure you have heard of the phrase "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". If you haven't heard of it, just ask your Pakistani tallel than mountain fiend biladels who consider Osama Bin Laden as one of the greatest men of the 20th and 21st century. :lol:

Churchill and British leaders before him have been responsible for countless more Indian deaths than Hitler ever was so yes, for Indians he & the British were infinitely worse than Hitler. And as an Indian I will definitely give more weight to who is a good or bad guy from my country's perspective rather than some other foreign country's perspective - that's known in democratic countries as freedom and independence of thought, something I guess the Chinese are unfamiliar with.

wong wrote:
And let's hope India stays "democratic" for as long as possible too. Looks like we are in full agreement.


Oh thank you for your good wishes! You thought you had made some snarky comment when in reality you really wished us well so Thank you! 8)


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 23:23 
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wong wrote:
Singha wrote:
>> Like it or not, the CPC is here to stay for at least another 200 years easy

that is also my fervent and pious hope :mrgreen:


And let's hope India stays "democratic" for as long as possible too. Looks like we are in full agreement.

Both will! One system helps growth and the other usually suffers when people rise out of oppression. It is curious that you stay in the US and cannot appreciate the virtues of freedom. Your education obviously failed to enhance the understanding of basic human needs.


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 23:26 
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^^If you don't like it, emigrate! :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2012 23:31 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
hitler let loose a 10 yr reign of terror and killed/gassed around 6 mil jews and another maybe 15 mil russians & allies from his invasions. net total of around 25 mil max.

england took over a vast country like india (pop was 500+ mil in 1947, so historically it has been high), misruled and raped the resources for a couple hundred years and had a economic growth rate of 1% per annum between 1857 to 1947 iirc with 90% poverty and 10% literacy. the bengal famine alone killed 4 million. if we tally up other famines in india and mass deaths due to callous british misrule, it will no doubt match hitler's tally easily

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India

wiki estimates it at 60 mil under the Raj. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... op-420.jpg

Churchill sir had tea and cucumber sandwiches on a lush english lawn, while indians died in lakhs.


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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2012 00:04 
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Sirji,

Bengal famines (1770,1870s) = 4 mil each
South-India (Bangalore/Madras) Famine = 6-10 mil

The three alone put together equal anywhere between 15-19 million people dead!


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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2012 06:49 
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wong wrote:
Because you guys have been doing the same thing for at least 10 years here and been dead wrong.

OK.So what? Just coz someone was wrong yesterday doesn't mean they'll also be wrong tomorrow. Past performance doesn't guarantee future returns and all that.

Quote:
I'll worry for China only when you guys change your opinion and only as a contrarian sign.

I'm sure you've lacked the finesse to notice but I've long gone contrarian on China, its econ miracle, its inherent strengths to get things done, its ironclad discipline that allows it to prevent gravity's effects, its inevitable rise to superpowerdom and global dominance, etc etc etc. There is no China-India race, we lost it long ago. Soon we won't even be in China's league in terms of potential, forget performance as UPA III becomes a reality in Delhi. Pinpricks like Tibetian uprisings can and will be managed, by an iron hand as first resort and by ethnic cleansing, if necessary. The unapologetic pursuit of self-interest and the conviction in one's righteousness in PRC, India doesn't and couldn't have because of its very nature.

Quote:
Like it or not, the CPC is here to stay for at least another 200 years easy.

Tathaastu.

Quote:
If all we are going to do here is regurgitate some Friedman and Paul Samuelson ideas on China with a little bit of Indian Schadenfreude and Gordan Chang idiocy thrown in, that's the REAL wake-me-up YAAAAWN.

Aha. SO now I need your permission or approval to indulge in my idle speculation/ schadenfreude/ daydreaming etc.? Sorry, but this ain't the PRC. We'll jolly well talk about whatever we want, even if it doesn't suit your tastes much. And if you don't like that about this board, you can always emigrate. No?


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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2012 08:16 
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How much GDP does this contribute?

http://tinyurl.com/73qz749


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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2012 09:22 
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total deaths by famine alone during british rule.

http://bharatrakshak.wikia.com/wiki/Tot ... s_in_India
http://bharatrakshak.wikia.com/wiki/Fam ... nsequences

so yes, from an Indian perspective churchill was a million times viler than hitler ever was. what US history books say doesn't matter. what wong is wong about is that there is no absolute truth in history.
I wonder if he knows that concentration camps for example were a british invention (during boer wars), or do US history books gloss over this little fact. in swearing by what you were spoonfed in school you are merely displaying your inability to think on our own. another example of lack of independent thought among current chinese of the communist variety.

so wong, if you studied in japan would tojo be a 'good guy' ? so what if he killed many chinese, many japanese think highly of him.


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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2012 14:26 
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The Great British Tea Heist
in 1848 :shock: :rotfl:
Quote:
In 1848, the British East India Company sent Robert Fortune on a trip to China's interior, an area forbidden to foreigners. Fortune's mission was to steal the secrets of tea horticulture and manufacturing. The Scotsman donned a disguise and headed into the Wu Si Shan hills in a bold act of corporate espionage.

Quote:
As he made his way through the green tea factory, Fortune took note of something both peculiar and more than a little alarming on the hands of the tea manufacturers. It was the kind of observation that, once reported, would be an invaluable boon to the burgeoning Indian tea experiment, with the power to boost the sales of Indian tea over Chinese. While staring at the workers busy in the final stages of processing, he noticed that their fingers were “quite blue.”

Among the blenders and tasters of the London auction it was generally assumed that the Chinese engaged in all manner of duplicity, inserting twigs and sawdust into their teas to bulk up the loose leaves. It was said that the Chinese were brewing their own breakfast tea, saving the soggy leaves to dry in the sun, and then reselling the recycled product as fresh tea for the gullible “white devils.”

There was no trust in the trade, no faith in the goodwill of the Chinese manufacturers.

But the blue substance on the fingers of the Chinese workmen seemed to Fortune a matter of legitimate concern. What could be the source of this? He and others had long suspected that the Chinese were chemically dyeing tea for the benefit of the foreign market. He was now in a position to prove or disprove the charge.

He watched each step of the processing carefully, saying nothing, making notes, and occasionally asking Wang to put a question to a manager or worker. At one end of the factory the supervisor stood over a white porcelain mortar. In the bowl was a deep blue powder, made finer and finer with each grind of the pestle. The superintendent was in fact preparing iron ferrocyanide, a substance also known as Prussian blue, a pigment used in paints.
When cyanide is ingested, it binds to iron inside cells, interfering with the absorption of certain enzymes and compromising a cell’s ability to produce energy. Cyanide affects the tissues most needed for aerobic respiration, the heart and lungs. In high doses cyanide can bring on seizures, coma, and then cardiac arrest, killing quickly. At lower doses cyanide leads to weakness, giddiness, confusion, and light-headedness. Exposure to even low levels of cyanide over long periods of time can lead to permanent paralysis. Fortunately for the tea drinkers of Britain, Prussian blue is a complex molecule, so it is almost impossible to release the cyanide ion from it and the poison passes harmlessly through the body.

Elsewhere in the factory, however, over the charcoal fires where the tea was roasted, Fortune discovered a man cooking a bright yellow powder into a paste. The smell was terrible, like that of rotten eggs. The yellow substance was gypsum, or calcium sulfate dehydrate, a common component of plaster. Gypsum produces hydrogen sulfide gas as it breaks down. While the gas is produced naturally by the body in low doses, in high doses it acts as a broad-spectrum poison, affecting many of the body’s systems simultaneously, particularly the nervous system. At lower concentrations gypsum acts as an irritant; it reddens the eyes, inflames the throat, and causes nausea, shortness of breath, and fluid in the lungs. Consumed over the long term it might produce fatigue, memory loss, headaches, irritability, and dizziness. It can even induce miscarriage in women, and failure to thrive in infants and children.

Fortune estimated that more than half a pound of plaster and Prussian blue was included in every hundred pounds of tea being prepared. The average Londoner was believed to consume as much as one pound of tea per year, which meant that Chinese tea was effectively poisoning British consumers. The additives were not included maliciously, however, for the Chinese simply believed that foreigners wanted their green tea to look green.


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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2012 16:00 
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Hari Seldon wrote:
I'm sure you've lacked the finesse to notice but I've long gone contrarian on China, its econ miracle, its inherent strengths to get things done, its ironclad discipline that allows it to prevent gravity's effects, its inevitable rise to superpowerdom and global dominance, etc etc etc. There is no China-India race, we lost it long ago. Soon we won't even be in China's league in terms of potential, forget performance as UPA III becomes a reality in Delhi. Pinpricks like Tibetian uprisings can and will be managed, by an iron hand as first resort and by ethnic cleansing, if necessary. The unapologetic pursuit of self-interest and the conviction in one's righteousness in PRC, India doesn't and couldn't have because of its very nature.


Hari ji,

:D :D

You've single handedly contributed more to Wong jis cognitive dissonance than all the other posters here combined. I think it will take time for his brain to process (most likely the circuits will go kaput) the two dilemmas you have presented to him:

a) How can an Indian poster go against the prevailing opinion/mood on this thread and actually say China won and India lost and still remain a highly respected member and contributor to the forum?

b) How can somebody praise China's achievements and still not be overawed by the great Communist Party of China and its "achievements"?

I mean spare a thought for Wong ji. Nothing prepared him for this.

:)


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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2012 16:03 
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Singha wrote:
>> Like it or not, the CPC is here to stay for at least another 200 years easy

that is also my fervent and pious hope :mrgreen:


+100.

I also pray and hope the CPC stays for another 200 years. On this issue we are in 400 per cent agreement with our Chinese guests. Let us all pray together for long life and prosperity of the CPC.


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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2012 17:15 
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amit wrote:
I mean spare a thought for Wong ji. Nothing prepared him for this.:)


Amit ji,

Different strokes for different trolls.

Actually, if you think like a kindergartner, its not hard to see wong's perspective... sorta like, "ain't I cuter, shinier and infra-structurer than SDRE yindia. How dare they still not be awed and actually talk back, eh?"

When you then take a slightly more mature perspective and ask "so what?", the wind leaves the sails very fast indeed. Only.

Jai hu, jai mao...


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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2012 11:03 
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Hari Seldon wrote:
Jai hu, jai mao...


:-)

Very apt here. Indeed Jai hu, Jai mao...

:lol:


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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2012 12:36 
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Where are our deal biladels?? I am having withdrawal symptoms :(( :(( :((


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