Bharat Rakshak

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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 16:24 
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Advait wrote:
Suraj wrote:
Advait, please stop derailing the thread. There's no need to bring in relative moralities. Regardless of whether the PRC is ahead or behind us, this thread is about critically analyzing them.


I am writing in facts and figures while others are making snide remarks, but that is not derailment. :roll:

You said "this thread is about critically analyzing them", but seems like what you want everybody to do is just criticize them.

Ok, I get it: All countries are wrong/in deep trouble, onlee we are great. :mrgreen:

Jai Ho.


Advait,

Suraj has already commented on your posts. However, I'd like to point out the reason why folks here are a bit put off by your (well intentioned) remarks.

But before I do that let me show that your "facts and figures" are not as factual as you think they are. Please see this chart:

Image

You'd note that the number of cars per 100 people is not as different in India and China as you think they are.

Quote:
You can see from this chart from Main First Bank that China and Thai­land have rel­a­tively sim­i­lar lev­els of GDP per capita, but the rate of vehi­cle own­er­ship in China is sig­nif­i­cantly lower. If China were to catch up with the trend of other coun­tries, the ratio would roughly be 10 vehi­cles for every 100 peo­ple. The same can be said for other coun­tries where incomes are ris­ing such as Turkey and India.


From here

However the point remains that more cars (in fact more than twice) the number of cars are sold in China than in India. And this is true for just about every consumer good you can think about. In fact the more expensive the item the factors go up as much - for e.g. the Chinese buy LV bags several fold more than Indians do - the same with Gucci and expensive watches, including "authentic fakes".

Now instead of chest beating and lamenting how wretched we and our government are, please try to understand the co-relation between per capita income and consumption. If you really want to know and understand there are hazaar scholarly works on this which Uncle Gogal can point you to. I probably could have done the same (as could have many posters here), however, time is a constraint.

As a compensation let me point just to this link. It's a news article but still had some useful nuggets of information.

In particular:

Quote:
"The $1,000-income is the start of the take-off of a nation," says Janmejaya Sinha, chairman, Asia Pacific, of consulting firm BCG. "It is around this number that a nation gets out of subsistence spending and moves more and more into higher quality branded product," adds Chetan Ahya, MD, Research, Morgan Stanley.

China reached this threshold in 2003, and has since unleashed a consumption boom that the world is in awe of. Today, its per capita income is at $3,400.

What's so significant about the statistics of $1,000? After all, even countries like Ghana and Afghanistan too are close to achieving this figure. The figure is significant if it is accompanied by a few other things: an economy of the size of at least $500 billion, a healthy and sustainable growth rate in GDP and a large population. India has all the three pieces of this equation, and has them in plenty.


Along with all this I would also ask you to consider two other data points. One is that China started its reforms process a full decade before us. And the second is, being a dictatorship it has been able to ram through often unpleasant changes that are required to fast track economic growth. Contrast that with our government fumbling on some thing as elementary as increasing rail passenger fares after almost a decade.

However, despite all the hurdles our per capita has crossed the magic $1000 mark and our GDP is pushing $2 trillion. Aab ayga maza. In the context of automobiles, just compare the yearly growth rates between India and China. After several years of scorching growth the Chinese demand is plateauing as it's bound to. On the other hand, the Indian growth is just gathering momentum and from a higher base than when China also experienced similar momentum (that's because we first built a thriving auto export industry before domestic consumption surged).

Bottomline, before being so pessimistic and blaming everybody for what you perceive as the dhoti clad SDRE's shortcomings, try to think it through. There's a lot that can be made better but they may not be as many as you think they are. We also get a lot of things right despite our tendency to quake in our dhotis at the drop of a hat or Han.

JMT


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 17:46 
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Nice posts Amit..

Quote:
However, despite all the hurdles our per capita has crossed the magic $1000 mark and our GDP is pushing $2 trillion. Aab ayga maza. In the context of automobiles, just compare the yearly growth rates between India and China. After several years of scorching growth the Chinese demand is plateauing as it's bound to



I have tried to explain this to people often. But people fail to understand the exponential curve of compound interest...

In late 1990s when I was in high school , cell phones were a luxury item in India..20% of my classmates had parents owning cellphones . There was only one kid in my class who had his own cell phone ..His uncle is now a forbes billionaire .. the guy was a typical rich family spoilt brat type and would show off his cell phone ..I told him then , that in a decades time even a gardener would have the cell phone ...he laughed then ... i merely grinned...

I bumped into the guy in boston 2 years ago .. "Mobile revolution" had taken place in India . He remembered my statement ...He still has not figured out how it all happened...I am not sure his uncle would find the brat very useful for his company... Needless to say that the Guy was not in Boston for studying in MIT/Harvard, but for attending some party...

Quote:
On the other hand, the Indian growth is just gathering momentum and from a higher base than when China also experienced similar momentum (that's because we first built a thriving auto export industry before domestic consumption surged).



true... On top of that ,we still have plenty of legislations pending to remove supply side bottlenecks ... And our growth has been in spite of the bottlenecks ..Imagine what will happen once those bottlenecks are addressed ..


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PostPosted: 22 May 2012 11:57 
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Thanks Gakakkad. Unfortunately very few people understand the exponential curve. And far too many folks are like your spoilt rich friend - folks who think it's hip, "progressive" and fashionable to be critical of India and Indian policy without thinking things through and doing their own research. Like I've said many times, there's a lot that's bad and needs fixing but these are not nearly as much as most folks think they are.

Going back to the India-China automobile sales comparison and its correlation to per capita income, let me present another interesting statistics. But before that remember that China crossed the $1000 per capita barrier in 2003 and India did so in 2011. As the article I linked in my previous post says, $1000 is the barrier at which folks think of four wheelers instead of two wheelers. This move becomes a torrent when the per capita get to $2000 and so on.

Now look at this link.

Quote:
China is the world's fastest growing auto market. According Chinese government statistics, over two million cars were sold in the country in 2003, a nearly 80 percent increase over 2002.


So in 2003 when China passed the $1k mark its car sales zoomed up 80 per cent to 2 million cars.

Now look at this WSJ article about Indian car sales in 2011:

Quote:
Sales increased to 1.95 million cars in the past calendar year from 1.87 million cars, according to SIAM.


The WSJ adds that 2011 was a pretty bad year due the problems in the economy:

Quote:
NEW DELHI – The Indian automobile market faced a bumpy ride in 2011 and the future looks grim as well, although there are a few signs that the fog may be clearing a little.

Sales growth in 2011 slowed to just 4.3%, compared with a stellar 31% in the previous 12 months, according to data issued Tuesday by the Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers, or SIAM.


If it wasn't for the unexpected 4.3% growth instead of the normal high double digit growth the figure would have crossed 2 million.

But even then:

The year China passed the $1k per capita mark its auto sales were 2 million.

The year India passed the $1k per capita mark its auto sales were 1.95 million.

I hope Advait reads these numbers and realises that these "fact and figures" are as relevant as the "facts and figures" he quoted. I would stick my neck out and say that these numbers are more relevant than random figures of cars per 100 taken out of context and used as a dhoti-shaking excuse.

I would also like to stick my neck out and make another prediction. Nine years have passed since 2003 and China has become the world's biggest auto market - a creditable achievement I must add and I'm happy for the Chinese. However, I would predict that by 2020 India would be the second biggest or biggest auto market and would join China right up there in the auto industry - as it will in many other fields.

It all boils down to the one decade head start China has in its liberalisation drive. And note the time lines hold despite the lack of proper governance in India.


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PostPosted: 22 May 2012 20:26 
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Excellent posts, amit and gakakkad.


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PostPosted: 24 May 2012 10:33 
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Oh well, it looks like our "Tarrel than Mountain and Deepel than Ocean" Friend is in trouble.

Chinese Manufacturing May Shrink for 7th month in a row!

And with that predictably come the exhortations of
Quote:
China will increase the intensity of policy “fine-tuning” amid rising “downside risks” facing the economy, the State Council, or Cabinet, said yesterday.


This surely has to be a joke of some sort. Quick, can someone pull out the statistics of what was China's consumption as a % of GDP in 2009 to 2012 ? I wouldn't be surprised if the share of consumption to GDP has actually decreased, when all common sense said that the stimulus should have gone towards increasing consumption and not the already high investement.

We talked about it here on how there will be waste on a massive massive scale and pointed out the high speed railways and how it was a total dud (but Chinese posters claimed the opposite and 100% occupancy and what have you and see how that has whimpered down now) and you saw monstrosities like Ordos and of course , ranks upon ranks of huge highrises , with empty apartments and malls with zero occupancy!

And here we have another round of similar spending going to happen, now with probably "affordable housing" and whatever being the target! Makes sense to mail a check to every chinese household of proportionate ratio of stimulus per head and tell them to spend as they please. That will make for far more efficient plan than a govt (mis) directed spree.

Well, all in all, the core and the tamper are getting crunched layer by layer for a future gigantic ka-boom.


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PostPosted: 24 May 2012 16:04 
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amit wrote:
What many folks often miss is that after Japan and S Korea India is the third biggest automobile exporter in Asia - not China or the over-hyped Thailand.


A little fact checking says the bold part doesn't hold water. China had $10.6 Billion in automobile exports last year vs. $6 Billion for India.

From FT:
"India currently ranks 26th among auto exporting countries, earning $5.5bn a year with less than 1 per cent of the world auto exports market."

Also, at this stage in India's auto development, there should be more than enough domestic demand to consume all the Indian Hyundais and Suzukis domestically assembled. Hyundai shouldn't be exporting its Indian cars. China's auto exports have traditionally been limited by an inability to satisfy domestic car demand. Honda tried exporting the Accord from China, but they found out they could make much more money just selling it locally. What's this about a lack of Chinese consumption??


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PostPosted: 24 May 2012 16:57 
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Ouch.. very very ouch! China is a black box of misinformation

Quote:
China Is a Black Box of Misinformation
By Junheng Li - May 23, 2012

To this day, many Chinese people believe that Mao Zedong didn’t know millions of people were starving in the Great Leap Forward. :eek: :eek: (the sheer power of the drone Panda propaganda)

The agricultural production statistics were all rosy, a testament to the success of his new economic policy, while hordes of hungry masses migrated from province to province, chasing false reports of bumper crops. Thirty million or so people starved, in no small part because of the manipulation of economic data.

Half a century later, China has the second-largest economy in the world, and the country has lifted about 400 million people out of poverty. The magnitude and speed of urbanization are unprecedented in the history of human civilization.

I am proud of what China has done for its people since the introduction of state capitalism in the 1980s. Gross domestic product has quadrupled in the past decade, from $1.2 trillion in 2000 to almost $6 trillion in 2011. But as a China native and a U.S.-trained investor, I struggle with the country’s governance, openness and, therefore, the reliability of its data. Behind the scenes of an economic miracle, China has remained a gigantic black box to insiders and outsiders.
Cooking the Books

In the 1980s and 1990s, during China’s opening-up stage, both my parents left employment in the state-owned sector to jump into the newly opened private sector. As they toiled through the “wild west,” I learned the most important lesson about doing business in China: Numbers don’t mean much. Most companies have three books: a real one for internal use, one for the tax bureau and one for the CEO’s wife (and, in some cases, a fourth for his mistress) :lol: :lol: .

More than a decade later the practice hasn’t changed much, as has been highlighted by the recent allegations of fraudulent accounting associated with a slew of China-based U.S.-listed companies. China as a whole is a giant black box -- no one really knows what is in it. Chinese bureaucrats don’t have any interest in reporting anything that doesn’t paint a good picture, and, even if they did, the statistics bureau remains woefully inadequate.

At the same time, gross domestic product forecasts issued by major investment banks are equally unreliable. Just as with equity research analysts and stockbrokers who package IPOs and sell them to investors, major banks’ economists try to curry favor with Chinese bureaucrats. As such their forecasts are essentially a point-for-point rehash of what fiscal and monetary policies the bureaucrats say are coming down the pipe. The information is repackaged and sold as euphoria to support banks’ profit-generating activities, such as IPOs and securities trading.

So far, these forecasts have worked relatively well, as one would imagine. China’s hybrid economy depends more heavily on government policy than most, and can count on the cushion of intervention from on high.

Once a growth target is set by the top, the central government then allocates GDP growth from the top down. The state gives provinces a target, each province mandates to the regions, regions to departments, and departments to corporations, including state-owned enterprises and private companies. Despite the admirable economic growth that China has delivered, at its core the reward and punishment system hasn’t changed in stride. Those who comply are rewarded and those who raise uncomfortable subjects are punished; a cut in pay or acork in one’s career advancement are to be expected if one can’t provide the euphoria package.
Everybody’s Happy

There is a Chinese saying usually applied to the legal system: While the top has its policies, the bottom has its counterpolicies. In economics, if the bottom can’t meet the mandate, they cook the books and send the data back up the ranks. Everyone’s happy -- for a while.

It’s as if Mao’s proposed farming methods could actually produce the amount of crops that were being reported -- if the powers that be must be pleased, so be it. As long as the upper levels of governance maintain their authority and lower levels of governance don’t take any heat for a missed target, then everyone can be happy.

Many unbiased economists would argue that it is statistically improbable for any economy to have produced a real GDP data stream as smooth as China’s since 1980. During its early years of modern growth, China was still overwhelmingly agricultural, so it should have been subjected to Mother Nature’s unpredictability in the form of bad harvests or bumper crops. As manufacturing and industrial productions have grown as a percentage of GDP, business cycles driven by demand and productivity fluctuations should have generated far more significant swings in the economy than what the reported data have indicated.

Moreover, in the span of the past 32 years, the structures of the Chinese and world economies have changed rapidly and unpredictably. China opened up to international trade and foreign direct investment, and therefore subjected itself to more external economic shocks. Yet in this same period Chinese official statistics show aggregate GDP advancing like an Audi at a high but steady speed on an empty highway. :rotfl: :rotfl:

GDP-ism has become the Chinese government’s strongest ideology, and as such might not be an accurate indicator of reality. In the political and economic matrix of China, rosy statistics are the strongest self-justification mechanism for authority.

But, as history has shown, statistics and ideology don’t always work in a harmonious relationship; one has a habit of eclipsing the other until the lie that has been said a thousand times becomes the truth. Data manipulation, however, is a nontruth that can only fool for so long. Let us hope that when it is exposed, it won’t result in China’s next Great Leap Backward. :roll: :roll:

(Junheng Li is the founder and senior equity analyst of JL Warren Capital LLC, an independent equity research firm in New York. The opinions expressed are her own. Hannah Lincoln, a master’s candidate at Johns Hopkins University-Nanjing University Center for Chinese and American Studies, contributed research to this article.)

Read more opinion online from Bloomberg View. Subscribe to receive a daily e-mail highlighting new View columns, editorials and op-ed articles.

Today’s highlights: the View editors on how Germany gained from the euro and the problems with the Facebook IPO; Clive Crook on Europe at the brink; Jonathan Alter on political substance and slander; Ezra Klein on the fight over Bain; Caroline Baum on overregulating banks; Tobias Moskowitz on data-driven policy; Panagis Vourloumis on Greek shock therapy.

To contact the writer of this article: Junheng Li at junh@jlwarrencapital.com.

To contact the editor responsible for this article: Katy Roberts at kroberts29@bloomberg.net.


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PostPosted: 24 May 2012 17:37 
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amit wrote:
It all boils down to the one decade head start China has in its liberalisation drive. And note the time lines hold despite the lack of proper governance in India.



This is actually why I sometimes am afraid that we may be just too much like the people we claim we dont like. We could be loosing our inner Baniya.

Fortunately we have a democracy and we get an opportunity to throw away the junk in any given block of 5 years. Lets hope we can excercise this right responsibly.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 11:56 
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wong wrote:
A little fact checking says the bold part doesn't hold water. China had $10.6 Billion in automobile exports last year vs. $6 Billion for India.


Aha Wong ji, fact checking indeed. I hope the facts are not from the bureau that produces the impeccable Shanghai statistics. :-).

Well here's an "less reliable" - that is less reliable than Shanghai statistics - source, have a look at it.

Nation Master. Fortunately the website resides outside the Great Firewall of China.

Quote:
From FT:
"India currently ranks 26th among auto exporting countries, earning $5.5bn a year with less than 1 per cent of the world auto exports market."


Credible posters give a link to any quote they put up but then credible posters do a lot of things... If you see the Nation Master chart, FT is right in pointing out that India is No26 among auto exporting countries. But the devil is in the details, as I always say. China is (drum rolls please...) No37 on the list!

Quote:
Also, at this stage in India's auto development, there should be more than enough domestic demand to consume all the Indian Hyundais and Suzukis domestically assembled. Hyundai shouldn't be exporting its Indian cars. China's auto exports have traditionally been limited by an inability to satisfy domestic car demand.


I do believe that you don't realise how lame duck the above "anal-ysis" sounds. By that logic, for example, all the iPhone and iPad sold in the world are produced in China.

"At this stage of China's economic development (second biggest economy and all that jazz) there should be more than enough domestic demand to consume "almost" all of Foxconns domestically assembled iPhone and iPads. Apple via Foxconn shouldn't be exporting China made iPhones and iPads. The fact that Apple via Foxconn has not been limited by insatiable domestic demand for iPhones and iPads implies that most Chinese are not rich enough to buy iPhones and iPads. The party should move to give a boost to each Chinese so that they can buy iPhones and iPads."


Quote:
Honda tried exporting the Accord from China, but they found out they could make much more money just selling it locally. What's this about a lack of Chinese consumption??


I'm sorry to say but that sound like bullsh!t. None of the foreign companies have set up car manufacturing bases in China to export, unlike in India which has been identified as a global small car production hub. You see companies like Huyndai, Ford, Suzuki etc can set up 100 per cent owned factories in India and export their production. They also have no fear of IP being stolen. To boot there is a thriving world class auto component hubs in India and the required skilled workforce.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 11:57 
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Suraj wrote:
Excellent posts, amit and gakakkad.


Thanks Suraj. Coming from you it means a lot. :)


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 12:59 
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amit wrote:
Credible posters give a link to any quote they put up but then credible posters do a lot of things... If you see the Nation Master chart, FT is right in pointing out that India is No26 among auto exporting countries. But the devil is in the details, as I always say. China is (drum rolls please...) No37 on the list!

Quote:
Also, at this stage in India's auto development, there should be more than enough domestic demand to consume all the Indian Hyundais and Suzukis domestically assembled. Hyundai shouldn't be exporting its Indian cars. China's auto exports have traditionally been limited by an inability to satisfy domestic car demand.


I do believe that you don't realise how lame duck the above "anal-ysis" sounds. By that logic, for example, all the iPhone and iPad sold in the world are produced in China.

"At this stage of China's economic development (second biggest economy and all that jazz) there should be more than enough domestic demand to consume "almost" all of Foxconns domestically assembled iPhone and iPads. Apple via Foxconn shouldn't be exporting China made iPhones and iPads. The fact that Apple via Foxconn has not been limited by insatiable domestic demand for iPhones and iPads implies that most Chinese are not rich enough to buy iPhones and iPads. The party should move to give a boost to each Chinese so that they can buy iPhones and iPads."


Quote:
Honda tried exporting the Accord from China, but they found out they could make much more money just selling it locally. What's this about a lack of Chinese consumption??


I'm sorry to say but that sound like bullsh!t. None of the foreign companies have set up car manufacturing bases in China to export, unlike in India which has been identified as a global small car production hub. You see companies like Huyndai, Ford, Suzuki etc can set up 100 per cent owned factories in India and export their production. They also have no fear of IP being stolen. To boot there is a thriving world class auto component hubs in India and the required skilled workforce.



Here is the FT link that quoted $5.5 billion in Indian auto exports:
http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2010/0 ... xport-hub/

Now, here's a few to support my $10.6+ billion in china auto exports on 844,000 to 1 million vehicles.
http://www.china.org.cn/business/2012-0 ... 587619.htm
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2012/01 ... 1-million/
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china ... 568274.htm

Never heard of Nation Master, but its numbers are way off for India and China.

Funny, your iPhone and iPad argument actually supports my case. Apple prioritizes US sales over Chinese sales of their products. Apple products sell for more in China than in the US, but Apple wants to satisfy demand in its home market first. This is either their corporate strategy or they never anticipated Chinese demand for Apple products would be so insatiably high. There is a thriving gray market for re-import of Apple products back to China. There are actually riots in China because their aren't enough iPads. Are there riots in India because there aren't enough Indian made Hyundais and Suzukis??? Didn't think so.

amit wrote:
I'm sorry to say but that sound like bullsh!t. None of the foreign companies have set up car manufacturing bases in China to export, unlike in India which has been identified as a global small car production hub. You see companies like Huyndai, Ford, Suzuki etc can set up 100 per cent owned factories in India and export their production. They also have no fear of IP being stolen. To boot there is a thriving world class auto component hubs in India and the required skilled workforce.


That certainly is your spin, but the reality is it takes several year to setup a foreign automobile assembly plant. The overly optimistic, projected local demand in India didn't materialize, so it's export time. If your theory was remotely true, the automobiles being exported would be much higher quality than the lower end, made for India cars. After all why export Nissan's cheapest/lowest car from India, when it's way more profitable to export Nissan Maximas or Infinitis (if exports really were the original intention).

Chinese automobile exports have always been constrained by domestic demand consuming all the domestic production. This is a well known fact both inside and outside China, but it couldn't get through the Indian mental firewall. This export constraint is about to change and you can see that in the 50%+ yoy export growth numbers.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 13:26 
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amit wrote:
It all boils down to the one decade head start China has in its liberalisation drive. And note the time lines hold despite the lack of proper governance in India.


Actually, this statement isn't true either. For China, 1978 to 1990 was just undoing communism. Even the CIA's own economic analysis backs this up. Was India communist between 1978 to 1990, if not then China didn't have a decade head start over India. Real economic reform in China only started in 1992 (and only in the coastal areas), around the same time as India. The "iron rice bowl" and other remnants of communism lasted at least until 1998 with the beginning of massive state-owned company layoffs.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 14:02 
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wong wrote:
Now, here's a few to support my $10.6+ billion in china auto exports on 844,000 to 1 million vehicles.
http://www.china.org.cn/business/2012-0 ... 587619.htm


Wong ji,

How ingenious you are!

Let's just take the link you provided above and have a look at it. It says:

Quote:
China's auto exports hit 849,000 units last year, the highest level seen since the onset of the global financial crisis, the automobile branch of the China Chamber of Commerce for the Import & Export of Machinery & Electronic Products (CCCME AUTO) said on Wednesday.


The report is dated February 2012.

Now the SIAM, that is Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers, the industry body has this on its website:

Quote:
During April-March 2012, the industry exported 2,910,055 automobiles registering a growth of 25.44 percent. Passenger Vehicles registered growth at 14.18 percent in this period.


Now I'm waiting to see what fresh spin you impart. And the fact you haven't heard of Nation Master gives interesting clues on where you actually reside in, methinks!

Quote:
That certainly is your spin, but the reality is it takes several year to setup a foreign automobile assembly plant. The overly optimistic, projected local demand in India didn't materialize, so it's export time. If your theory was remotely true, the automobiles being exported would be much higher quality than the lower end, made for India cars. After all why export Nissan's cheapest/lowest car from India, when it's way more profitable to export Nissan Maximas or Infinitis (if exports really were the original intention).


Another piece of bullsh!t. India has been chosen as a global hub for small cars, which why much of the export goes to Europe. I'm not going to spend time educating you on this aspect of Indian auto industry, just go and google. And what makes you think that cars that are sold in India are less than worldclass? Just because Indian prefer compact cars, that makes these cars comparable to the quality that Geely and others churn out for the Chinese market?

Do you know that Suzuki's design centre in India designs cutting edge cars which the Japanese company then manufactures for the global markets?

Quote:
This export constraint is about to change and you can see that in the 50%+ yoy export growth numbers.


Living in la la land are you? Even your links don's support this particular piece of propaganda.

I get it now. With HSR becoming an embarrassment for even the most die hard drones, now its the great leap forward by the likes of Geely, Chery and others that will be new topic to crow about! :lol:


Last edited by amit on 25 May 2012 14:08, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 14:06 
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wong wrote:
Actually, this statement isn't true either. For China, 1978 to 1990 was just undoing communism. Even the CIA's own economic analysis backs this up. Was India communist between 1978 to 1990, if not then China didn't have a decade head start over India. Real economic reform in China only started in 1992 (and only in the coastal areas), around the same time as India. The "iron rice bowl" and other remnants of communism lasted at least until 1998 with the beginning of massive state-owned company layoffs.


Wow, wow!

So since 1992 the Peoples Republic of China has been a thriving democracy I see? I wonder why Tienanmen happened in that case? Please Wong cut this crap, the folks here are not going to swayed by this kindergarten stuff. There's a lot about China which you can write about which can lead to a serious discussion, don't stretch your already over extended credibility by sprouting such nonsense.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 14:12 
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Amit, this is your link...

"The cumulative production data for April-March 2012 shows production growth of 13.83 percent over same period last year. In March 2012 as compared to March 2011, production grew at a single digit rate of 6.83 percent. In 2011-12, the industry produced 20,366,432 vehicles of which share of two wheelers, passenger vehicles, three wheelers and commercial vehicles were 76 percent, 15 percent, 4 percent and 4 percent respectively.
 
Domestic Sales
The growth rate for overall domestic sales for 2011-12 was 12.24 percent amounting to 17,376,624 vehicles. In the month of only March 2012, domestic sales grew at a rate of 10.11 percent as compared to March 2011."

That's where your 3 million number came from: motorcycles, tricycles, auto rickshaws, etc...

I thought we were talking about cars ????????

All my statements stand. India did not export 3 million cars nor did India consume 17.3 million cars domestically in 2012.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 14:19 
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amit wrote:
wong wrote:
Actually, this statement isn't true either. For China, 1978 to 1990 was just undoing communism. Even the CIA's own economic analysis backs this up. Was India communist between 1978 to 1990, if not then China didn't have a decade head start over India. Real economic reform in China only started in 1992 (and only in the coastal areas), around the same time as India. The "iron rice bowl" and other remnants of communism lasted at least until 1998 with the beginning of massive state-owned company layoffs.


Wow, wow!

So since 1992 the Peoples Republic of China has been a thriving democracy I see? I wonder why Tienanmen happened in that case? Please Wong cut this crap, the folks here are not going to swayed by this kindergarten stuff. There's a lot about China which you can write about which can lead to a serious discussion, don't stretch your already over extended credibility by sprouting such nonsense.


Capitalism is economics, not politics. Democracy vs. authoritarianism has nothing to do with capitalism vs. socialism vs. communism. Capitalism and a 1 party state are not mutually exclusive. I was merely correcting your decade behind in reform excuse, which is simply not true. China and India both started economic reform around the same time in the early 1990s.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 14:20 
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amit wrote:
wong wrote:
Actually, this statement isn't true either. For China, 1978 to 1990 was just undoing communism. Even the CIA's own economic analysis backs this up. Was India communist between 1978 to 1990, if not then China didn't have a decade head start over India. Real economic reform in China only started in 1992 (and only in the coastal areas), around the same time as India. The "iron rice bowl" and other remnants of communism lasted at least until 1998 with the beginning of massive state-owned company layoffs.


Wow, wow!

So since 1992 the Peoples Republic of China has been a thriving democracy I see? I wonder why Tienanmen happened in that case? Please Wong cut this crap, the folks here are not going to swayed by this kindergarten stuff. There's a lot about China which you can write about which can lead to a serious discussion, don't stretch your already over extended credibility by sprouting such nonsense.


Not that I'm agreeing with his assertions, but the Tiananmen square incident happened in 1989! Plus, communism is actually more of an economic philosophy, in contrast to capitalism, though that point is debatable as real-life applications of communism have really blurred the lines between economics and politics.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 14:20 
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Wong,

I see that you have major comprehension problems. Let me make it easy for you. The first para of the link I provided says this:

Quote:
In 2011-12, the industry produced 20,366,432 vehicles of which share of two wheelers, passenger vehicles, three wheelers and commercial vehicles were 76 percent, 15 percent, 4 percent and 4 percent respectively.


I assume, being Chinese, you should be reasonably proficient in maths. Let me explain what the sentence above means. It says of the total vehicle production of 20,366,332, 15 per cent was passenger cars. Now do the math to find out how many passenger cars that means.

Now the para I quoted in my previous post was:

Quote:
During April-March 2012, the industry exported 2,910,055 automobiles registering a growth of 25.44 percent.


In case you have difficulties in understanding, to most Indians (and to most English speaking people around the world) automobiles=passenger cars.

Now do you understand that motorocycles, auto rickshaws etc are not in the picture.

Geez Wong, I have to say this. I used to think you're a smart and savvy poster. I see I was totally off the mark.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 14:23 
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David,

Your right about the timeline, my bad. However, just a note to everyone, I'm not going to waste my time to discuss this stupid assertion that somehow China became a capitalist society after 1992. China was, is and will be for some time to come a dictatorship run by a single party which represents a small clique of people with political and economic power.

That's the way it is. Live with it.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 14:28 
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Sure amit, I'll do the math.

Back of the envelope:

15% of a total production of 20 million vehicles is 3 million cars. That's total production, both domestic and exports. Now, unless Indians consumed zero cars domestically, your 3 million car exports are impossible. Something doesn't add up in your math.

Seriously, 2.9 million cars exported to be exact. So India only consumed ~100,000 cars domestically last year???


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 14:41 
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amit wrote:
David,

Your right about the timeline, my bad. However, just a note to everyone, I'm not going to waste my time to discuss this stupid assertion that somehow China became a capitalist society after 1992. China was, is and will be for some time to come a dictatorship run by a single party which represents a small clique of people with political and economic power.

That's the way it is. Live with it.


You've never been to China, have you?? I grew up in the West, so I think I know capitalism when I see it. If China is not capitalist, I don't know what is ?? One party vs two party state, who cares? For your information, there are corrupt "1 percenters" in multi-party states too (in case you didn't know).


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 17:29 
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wong wrote:
amit wrote:
It all boils down to the one decade head start China has in its liberalisation drive. And note the time lines hold despite the lack of proper governance in India.


Actually, this statement isn't true either. For China, 1978 to 1990 was just undoing communism. Even the CIA's own economic analysis backs this up. Was India communist between 1978 to 1990, if not then China didn't have a decade head start over India. Real economic reform in China only started in 1992 (and only in the coastal areas), around the same time as India. The "iron rice bowl" and other remnants of communism lasted at least until 1998 with the beginning of massive state-owned company layoffs.


If 12 years were spent in "undoing communism", I will claim that India needed 12 years in "undoing NehruGandhi socialism".

Two can play that game.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 20:44 
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I am often accused of derailing threads, but since the train is off its tracks here anyway, here's my 2 cents

Why do we have to keep saying China started reforms in 1978, so we are a decade behind them onlee. Why do we keep comparing ourselves with China. So if China had not started its economic reforms for whatever reasons, there would be no pressure on our government and elites to work for providing Indians a better life??

Before China's economy took off, our elites would often claim that there was no country that matched India's population size, so comparisons with S.Korea, Japan, Singapore and other smaller countries was not being reasonable. This India-China equal equal onlee sounds just like that.

We should benchmark our performance with even more developed countries IMHO.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 21:01 
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ChandraV wrote:

If 12 years were spent in "undoing communism", I will claim that India needed 12 years in "undoing NehruGandhi socialism".

Two can play that game.


That doesn't matter. India has not reached or exceeded China's growth rate during the last thirty years. So it is not just the 10 years late start, it is lot more than that.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 21:06 
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^^Dunno how that works. India's GDP 2012 is == PRC one in 2003. <10 yrs behind. Wonder how that worked if India has *never* exceeded PRC's steroidal growth rates starting 1978. Just wondering onlee. jai hu, jai mao.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 21:15 
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Hari Seldon wrote:
^^Dunno how that works. India's GDP 2012 is == PRC one in 2003. <10 yrs behind. Wonder how that worked if India has *never* exceeded PRC's steroidal growth rates starting 1978. Just wondering onlee. jai hu, jai mao.


I also have that question. It is widely accepted in the world that China has grown at 10% annually in the last 30 years. India in 2012 doesn't look like China in 2003. Rupee overvalue and RMB undervalue?


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 21:27 
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wong wrote:
You've never been to China, have you?? I grew up in the West, so I think I know capitalism when I see it. If China is not capitalist, I don't know what is ?? One party vs two party state, who cares?


I think this should say it all. What a stupid asinine comment. Takes ones breath away.

It is staggering that people such as this grew up in the 'West', says something about the education system and the precipitous decline. Goes along with the McD quality standards.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2012 21:33 
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I'd argue that China spent between 1978 and 2000 undoing what would really be the communist procurement and production system, and is still not done. What they have in its place is state capitalism. They went from being a totalitarian state with a communist socio-economic system to a totalitarian state with a state capitalist system. As recently as the late 1990s China was facing massive restructuring issues as the old SoE behemoths were reoriented and made more efficient through capital infusion and massive workforce retrenchment. The 2001 WTO entry enabled them to channel that surplus workforce into the export engine better.

It's not as if India had little to do to reform. India had a license raj system, which was nothing more than a very well entrenched socialist production/procurement system. It spent the 1991-1998 period (approximately) undoing that system legislatively. It subsequently spend 1998-2003 period reforming the fiscal division system between centre and states. It has since spent the 2003-present period trying to reform the eminent domain and land acquisition policy framework, urban renewal, development of trade and manufacturing.

India still has to address the fiscal division of powers between states and cities, which is why urban development remains the starkest contrast between India and other newly industrializing nations, including China. Nearly all E/SE Asian countries prioritized this because their political systems did not require a mandate from the rural population to make decisions, and they could develop their cities far earlier in the reform process. As India's urban:rural ratio crosses the 50:50 mark, this process will rapidly accelerate - it has already begun in several places.

Fact remains that GDP-wise, whether in absolute dollars or PPP ones, Indian GDP today is approximately where Chinese GDP was in the early-mid 2000s. It has nothing to do with exchange rates - the approximate per capita production level and purchasing power of the citizenry for the two countries - as measured in a fixed unit - during these respective periods were about the same.

Comparing growth rate numbers amounts to very little - you have two systems with opposite political motives to massage their growth numbers: the Indian political system wants to understate it so as to perpetuate the populist dole system that wins elections. The Chinese system desires to show the people that the state is generating rapid economic growth, so as to keep the masses quiet and prevent revolt. Doesn't change the fact that Indian GDP in 2012 = Chinese GDP in the early/mid 2000s, whatever unit you use.


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PostPosted: 26 May 2012 07:49 
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ashi wrote:

I also have that question. It is widely accepted in the world that China has grown at 10% annually in the last 30 years. India in 2012 doesn't look like China in 2003. Rupee overvalue and RMB undervalue?



Indian currency is grossly undervalued ..the recent depreciation is mainly due to faulty monetary policy ..INR will fall to its usual levels once policy is corrected ...INR has been appreciating for the last 2 days...that was as soon as petrol prices were raised ...once diesel and lpg prices are raised , the correction will be swift...

the recent depreciation in INR has been due to crude oil and gold..India is the largest consumer of bullion ...

You are merely parroting the lines of a blogger ,posted by someone in the Indian econ dhaaga...

India in 2012 looks like China in mid 2000s by most parameters ... and looks like the China of 2020 by some other parameters...


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PostPosted: 26 May 2012 08:29 
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gakakkad wrote:

Indian currency is grossly undervalued ..the recent depreciation is mainly due to faulty monetary policy ..INR will fall to its usual levels once policy is corrected ...INR has been appreciating for the last 2 days...that was as soon as petrol prices were raised ...once diesel and lpg prices are raised , the correction will be swift...

the recent depreciation in INR has been due to crude oil and gold..India is the largest consumer of bullion ...

You are merely parroting the lines of a blogger ,posted by someone in the Indian econ dhaaga...

India in 2012 looks like China in mid 2000s by most parameters ... and looks like the China of 2020 by some other parameters...


Rupee depreciates because foreign investors do not believe in India's economy and pulls out. India doesn't produce much that is worthy to export but at the same time India have to import from oil/coal to toys.

http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-column-how-far-is-india-behind-china/20120123.htm


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PostPosted: 26 May 2012 08:38 
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^^ the article is written by the former editor of the pink toilet paper (et)..his knowledge of econ seems rusty at best ...Most of Indian currecnt account efecit was produced by gold+oil+other raw material...Most of Indian exports are manufactured goods like chemicals/pharmaceuticals /refined petro chemicals etc...

if service exports are taken into account we have a positive BOP...


reason why FIIs are pulling out is because Dollar is the safe haven in times of econ crisis ..if has nothing to do with the Indian econ fundamentals ...


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PostPosted: 26 May 2012 10:01 
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ashi wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:
^^Dunno how that works. India's GDP 2012 is == PRC one in 2003. <10 yrs behind. Wonder how that worked if India has *never* exceeded PRC's steroidal growth rates starting 1978. Just wondering onlee. jai hu, jai mao.


I also have that question. It is widely accepted in the world that China has grown at 10% annually in the last 30 years. India in 2012 doesn't look like China in 2003. Rupee overvalue and RMB undervalue?


You missed the point.

How come china, with a larger base + higher growth rates since at least 1991 is only <10 yrs ahead of India today? IMO, it makes PRC growth numbers look suspect. India's relatively transparent and open society+economy makes fudge-ing such numbers much harder.


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PostPosted: 26 May 2012 10:20 
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wong wrote:
You've never been to China, have you?? I grew up in the West, so I think I know capitalism when I see it. If China is not capitalist, I don't know what is ?? One party vs two party state, who cares? For your information, there are corrupt "1 percenters" in multi-party states too (in case you didn't know).


:rotfl: I am gonna use this phrase now "China is a single-party democracy". :rotfl: This needs to go on the BRF Dictionary.

BTW wong sir, if you grew up in the "West" you would know that more than 2 political parties participate in US elections. :lol:


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PostPosted: 26 May 2012 13:36 
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I am not certain whether some of our esteemed posters can engage our Chinese origin posters without name calling or massive ROFLs. That sort of takes the sheen away from the discussion. In the process some genuine points made get countered less on logic and more on rhetoric. Two things that struck me here, is Chinese posters putting 92 as the real date they kick started reform like India. That point can be considered relevant from one aspect. PRC and India had similar GDPs and per cap incomes that time 92. 20 years later China is more than doubly ahead than India is today. It certainly has indicated China's ability to implement change in infrastructure faster than India has. A point on this forum we have acknowledged aned several times by saying China's authoritarian approach has enabled it to acquire land and build relevant infrastructure much faster than India has been able to..in the last 20 years. This is certainly indicated in the higher growth rates from about the same GDP and percap base 20 years ago. China ramped it's manufacturing and industrial bases on major reforms mid 90's, while we struggle to get a POSCO, Mittal in Odisha, still discuss whether retail reform is good or bad. The reasons why China's growth rate and present GDP/ per cap and infrastructure levels are higher are certainly reflected in it's figures.

The other point was production of cars. So what are the numbers for our domestic consumption 4 wheeler passenger and 4 wheeler export. Amit Ji..Wong wrote

Quote:
15% of a total production of 20 million vehicles is 3 million cars. That's total production, both domestic and exports. Now, unless Indians consumed zero cars domestically, your 3 million car exports are impossible. Something doesn't add up in your math.

Seriously, 2.9 million cars exported to be exact. So India only consumed ~100,000 cars domestically last year???


There obviously is something wrong somewhere. So Wong bringing this out enhances the clarity, not takes it away. Reading through the figures get confusing. I am sure the relevant figures are there somewhere. I too will try and find them out. Amit Ji's posts i find always good clarity backed by good sensible data. But i confess i am a little confused here.

Another relevant point made is the Rupee drop. Why is it wrong to state that the present rapid drop in value is because of FII hot money makiig rapid exit? Even i thought that is the biggest reason for it today.


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PostPosted: 26 May 2012 13:42 
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CNN

Beijing (CNN) -- At just after midnight on Saturday, in a bar down an old lane in Beijing, the band suddenly stops playing. Grabbing the microphone, the manager tells everyone to remain in the venue; the police are outside threatening to escort to the nearest police station any foreigner not carrying valid documents. The atmosphere instantly sours.
This is just one of many incidents that have occurred in Beijing over the weekend following last week's launch of a 100-day campaign to "clean out" non-Chinese living or working illegally in the city. Until the end of August, all foreigners are expected to always have on them a valid passport, visa and resident permit, as stipulated by an announcement on Peaceful Beijing, the official Beijing Public Security Bureau account on popular Chinese micro-blogging site Sina Weibo.
If not, they will face repercussions, which range from fines to police detention and deportation.
A number for a hotline locals can call to report suspicious foreigners was also included in the announcement. Since then, the police presence in the main expat and student areas of the city has noticeably increased, households and companies have been spot checked, and queues at local police stations to register residency are large.
The new prickliness could be a sign the government is feeling under pressure from its own population.
Lars Laaman, Professor of Chinese History
Lin Song, media officer of the Exit-Entry Administration Department under the Beijing Municipal Public Security Bureau, was not available to immediately comment when asked about the crackdown. However, last week in an editorial in the Global Times, he remarked: "Some foreigners do not know Chinese laws well, and they might feel strange being randomly questioned by the police, but it is necessary to improve their legal awareness and make sure they stick to Chinese regulations."
Beijing police announced on Thursday that the city's friendly attitude toward foreigners has not changed. "Beijing will stick to the policy of reform and opening up, and we sincerely welcome foreign friends to work and live in Beijing," a spokesman told the state-run Xinhua news agency, adding that foreigners' legitimate rights will be protected.
But the crackdown has left a bitter taste in the mouths of many, not least those who have resided in the city for years and see it as home. Media worker Jacob Trent was pulled off his bike by the police on Saturday and demanded to produce his papers. "I have been living here for a decade and yet I still get treated like -- and sometimes called -- a foreign barbarian," lamented the American, who speaks perfect Mandarin and is engaged to a Chinese girl.
Another longtime expat, David Park, was equally distressed. "I have noticed a change in how I am treated. It has gone from curiosity to hostility," commented Park. The 27-year-old, an employee at a renewable energy firm, has been contemplating a move back to England. These events will make his decision easier, he said.
Park was not the only person expressing a desire to leave in the wake of tensions. Mia Bate, an African-American doing an internship, has no intention to renew her visa once it expires in September. "I never used to notice people looking at me on the streets," she said. "Now I do and it makes me feel really uncomfortable."
The campaign comes amid a heated online debate about the behavior of foreigners in China. The most noticeable example has been the uploading of a video onto the Chinese video sharing site Youku of a foreign man sexually assaulting a Chinese woman in Beijing. The video attracted more than 11 million views and 80,000 comments to date. Beijing police revealed the foreigner in the video to be a Briton on a tourist visa.
I have noticed a change in how I am treated. It has gone from curiosity to hostility.
David Park, UK expat
Police deny the incidents are related, but in the minds of both foreigners and Chinese they are. Prominent host on Chinese Central Television, Yang Rui, posted on Sina Weibo that Beijing must clean out its "foreign trash" to "protect innocent girls." According to Yang, they must "cut off the foreign snake heads."
Similar rhetoric has been voiced by locals offline. When Beijing resident Mandy Zhang's mother caught wind of the video, she called her 26-year-old daughter and asked her not to visit places that foreigners frequent. For both mother and daughter, the visa crackdown might not be an ideal solution, but it is necessary.
"Police cannot tell who is good or not. Some foreign men come here with the wrong intentions," Zhang said, adding: "We treat Westerners too well and this needs to change."
According to statistics provided by the city government, Beijing is home to about 120,000 foreigners. Most have arrived during the past decade, attracted by a booming economy and a visa policy that has been relatively relaxed. Crackdowns on this scale are very rare, with the last noticeable one being in the lead up to the 2008 Beijing Olympics.
Lars Laaman, a professor of Chinese history at London's SOAS, who has lived in the capital on and off since the 1980s, says these incidents only occur when the government is feeling uneasy," he commented, alluding to events that have gripped the nation over the past few months such as the dramatic fall from power of Chongqing party chief Bo Xilai.
Whatever the cause, as China's economy continues to grow, its foreign population will likely rise too. Finding a workable solution to the visa situation will become increasingly important.


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PostPosted: 27 May 2012 09:24 
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From MSNBC:
China's economy suffers 'sharp slowdown'
Quote:
A nationwide real estate downturn, stalling exports and declining consumer confidence have produced what a Chinese cabinet adviser, quoted on the official government Web site on Thursday, characterized as a “sharp slowdown in the economy.”


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PostPosted: 27 May 2012 09:37 
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@ harbans , fii pull out is an important cause..but they are not pulling out because Yindia is weak ,but because unkil is regarded as safe haven...chini athiti are laato ke bhoot so giving the kicks onlee..other wise it is athiti devo bhava onlee ..:)


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PostPosted: 27 May 2012 21:32 
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Advait wrote:
I am often accused of derailing threads, but since the train is off its tracks here anyway, here's my 2 cents

Why do we have to keep saying China started reforms in 1978, so we are a decade behind them onlee. Why do we keep comparing ourselves with China. So if China had not started its economic reforms for whatever reasons, there would be no pressure on our government and elites to work for providing Indians a better life??

Before China's economy took off, our elites would often claim that there was no country that matched India's population size, so comparisons with S.Korea, Japan, Singapore and other smaller countries was not being reasonable. This India-China equal equal onlee sounds just like that.

We should benchmark our performance with even more developed countries IMHO.




A very good post, Advait. That is something that is always missing in discussion of India-China when it is taken as faith that China and India is comparable. The truth is China-India comparison is used in India onlee not in the rest of the world and especially not in the sale-driven world of the MNCs.

There is no reason to suspect that we are "only" a decade behind because the two system are so extremely different that there cannot be a comparison of start dates to even begin comparing. You can only compare likes with likes. You cannot compare, as the old adage says, "apples and oranges."

The day that China began its "liberalization" it was and still is missing all the fundamentals that make a truly liberalized economy work.

For example, in China a private business woman is now on death row for attempting to raise capital. Yes, raising capital for a private firm can result in the death penalty in Pandaland.

So in most basic foundation of modern wealth creation -- the ability to raise money -- China is not only not ahead of India, it is actually centuries behind India.

The other is intellectual property protection. MNCs in chiniland cannot sell things without having them copied and stolen but they are hardly the biggest losers. The biggest losers are firms in chini land itself who cannot prosper from their innovation. The MNCs can always place factories in China to sell to the local population but reserve their R&D at home. And this they do. The protection of IP is what gave the US its greatest boom since the 1980s. It is always what drives Indian tech outsourcing and BPO.

So just in capitalization of private firms and intellectual property protection, India is way ahead.

That is why we cannot pretend that China is simply a decade ahead and that their "liberalization" is already done. If and when the chinis allow private business capitalization and IPP (both of which the MNCs are pushing China to do) then the gap can widen exponentially. Because those things are so basic, their impact can be greater than any change that India can do because it is already a very free and law-based society.

What worse is to imagine a day when the PRC becomes a free society like Taiwan, Japan or South Korea. Again, the international business community is pushing China towards that day. Why? Because they want to sell to an economy that's Japan times 10.

As Indians, we cannot pretend that there is any straight line comparison between India of today and China of 2002. Especially when the chinis themselves compare themselves to the Taiwans and South Koreas of yesteryears. We should not be comparing ourselves with a communist nation. We should be comparing ourselves with democracies like the United States or Brazil and figuring why we are behind them.


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PostPosted: 28 May 2012 09:57 
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harbans wrote:
The other point was production of cars. So what are the numbers for our domestic consumption 4 wheeler passenger and 4 wheeler export. Amit Ji..Wong wrote


Ok my bad on this. I should have responded earlier to what Wong wrote to clear confusion. Unfortunately have been very busy with some stuff at the work place.

First of all some clarity to the export numbers are needed. But even before that we need to understand what are the things covered under "auto exports" category.

This table should clarify for India:

Image

[Note: taken from http://www.siamindia.com/scripts/export-trend.aspx]

Wong ji is right about two-wheelers and three wheelers being included in the total export mix. However, I want to point one figure for 2010-11, that is passenger car exports, because that's where the discussion started. According to SIAM, 456,479 units of passenger cars were exported in this period.

Now, my original point which was challenged by Wong ji, was that India was the third biggest auto exporter in Asia after Japan and South Korea. And to bolster this point he came up with the number for China which was 849,500 units for 2011. Well at first glance it does seem I was wrong because the figure for China is almost double for that of India.

However...

I do have a bad habit of digging behind the numbers. In my search I found something interesting. That is all Chinese news sites, including Xinhua have reported this 849,500 units in such a way that the only conclusion you could draw was that these were passenger vehicle (as distinct from commercial vehicles and truck etc) exports.

Further digging led me to what I would think is a more credible site because its a specialist site called Just Auto

Now this site also gives the same number 849,500. However, it adds an interesting breakdown:

Quote:
Exports of sedans more than doubled to 372,100 units, up 110%. Bus exports were up 34.63% to 102,900 units, while truck exports were up 39.4% to 291,300 units.

Figures released from China Customs varied slightly. Total auto car exports were up 52.2% to 824,000 units, while value of exports increased by 60.5% to $9.9bn.


It does seem from this site that the contentious point about who exports more cars, India or China would show I was right after all! :eek:

Chinese car (only) exports were 372,000 units in 2011 while India was 456,479 units.

If we insist on taking the 849,500 number for China we might as well take the 2,339,333 number for India.

My investigation showed that in one area Wong ji was right. In dollar valuation Chinese exports were higher because bus and truck exports were higher for China than India where the vast majority comprises two and three wheeler which fetch lower per unit price.

Bottomline, India exports more cars than China does. However, China is way ahead in heavy vehicle exports.


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PostPosted: 28 May 2012 10:04 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Posts: 25556
Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
actually china's internal heavy vehicle and bus market is much larger than india's and has been for a long time. all those factories and chi chi roads need plenty of HCV.


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