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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2012 00:54 
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BRFite

Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31
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http://dailycaller.com/2012/06/13/china ... illions/2/

And an example of the drone action. See the comment by Charles Hang, almost a dissertion.
Note the Lahori Logic when he disses the precedent set by the 1987 payment to the Brits. He dismisses the 1987 precedent because it was of the Qing dynasty which preceded the Nationalists and the CCP. How come the debt of the Qing was payable but the debt of the Nationalists not payable even though they came afte the Qing?

Further notice how he found equivalence between the Chinese government which ruled for many decades and was the recognized authority, and the the US Southern states which never formed a recognized authority. By his Lahori logic every time the government changes, they can right off the older debt...


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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2012 02:20 
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BRFite

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Location: USA
Christopher Sidor wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:
Guys,

You are talking to the CPC. Just to remind people, BRF is banned in Panda land. Has been for a looong time.

Actual Chinese people are some of the most simple and self effacing types one can meet, both in China & Abroad. They detest the CPC with a venom Indians can never match. I would hate for Indians to get the wrong impression of China & the Chinese based on the twisted paid for drones who post here. We have no issue with China & the Chinese, our problems are with Panda wonderland and the dark overlords.


+1
I agree. Most of us have nothing against the Chinese or China per see. What some of us have is a deep loathing for is CPC, its armed thugs, i.e. PLA/PLAN/PLAAF and offcourse the policy that CPC has adopted.


The problem with that statement is that the chinis and the East Asian races in general have a deep loathing for communism that is matched by their racism of the "darker" races of Asia. The mainland chinese in Hong Kong, Japan or Taiwan are treated with disdain for being backward and communist. But at the same time the Indian wife of Martin Jacques, one of the premier Chinese experts in the UK, was left to die in a Hong Kong hospital simply because of her skin color.

I wish that CPC remain in power in China for as long as possible. Because it is the largest drag on their development. Why in hell do we want a democratic China that ends up like a larger Singapore, Hong Kong or Taiwan?

The race is between our civilization and theirs not between ideologies. Most chinamen, except for the drones, know they would be better off in a free system. But that is not what we should we wish for them. It is better they stay communist and inefficient.


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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2012 06:04 
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Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists
Yawn.. Back to regular programming folks.
In shift China Stifles Debate on Economic Change

Quote:
BEIJING — As China heads toward a once-a-decade change of its top leadership, its vaunted embrace a generation ago of markets and economic openness — which catapulted the country from isolated poverty to its place as a global export powerhouse — is also at a turning point.

After nearly a decade of President Hu Jintao’s focus on strengthening the state, a broad consensus of Chinese economists says the country is overdue for another big push to encourage private enterprise and to foster a shift toward a more consumer-driven economy. The challenge, they say, is turning back China’s domineering state sector.

But that seems increasingly unlikely. Publicly controlled enterprises have become increasingly lucrative, generating wealth and privileges for hundreds of thousands of Communist Party members and their families. And in a clear sign of its position, the government has moved to limit public debate on economic policy, shutting out voices for change. While political reform has always been a taboo topic in China, in economics, from the late 1970s to the early 2000s, almost anything went, with powerful voices backing strong measures that challenged the status quo. But now, despite the rise of social media, fewer prominent voices within China are able to make the case for a systemic overhaul that would prepare the nation for long-term prosperity on sturdier foundations.

“It’s not a good time to speak out for reforms, but it’s a good time to speak out against them,” said Li Shuguang, a professor at the China University of Politics and Law. “The government doesn’t encourage debate.”

Few people illustrate this conundrum better than Zhang Weiying, a 53-year-old Peking University professor who is probably the closest China has to an economic dissident.

A cause célèbre in Chinese economics circles, Mr. Zhang was fired a year and a half ago from his post as dean of the university’s Guanghua School of Management. Since then, he has been on an extended sabbatical, traveling widely and giving speeches on the country’s brewing economic troubles, among them slowing domestic growth and a collapse of financing for private enterprise.

The hitch is that much of his work is deliberately hard to access or is consigned to secondary publications.

Last year, he gave an hourlong video interview to the Web site Sina. Although the site belongs to a publicly traded company listed on Nasdaq, Sina works closely with the Chinese government. After a week on the site, the interview was deleted. A Sina spokesman, who refused to give his name, said the video was removed as part of regular site maintenance. Similar interviews from more mainstream experts, however, are still available.

Mr. Zhang’s address this year to the Yabuli China Entrepreneurs Forum seemed to have encountered a similar fate. The speech, which criticized the lack of market-oriented changes, cannot be found on most major Chinese newspaper sites, a sign of government disapproval of his views. Video of the speech is available only on overseas Web sites that are blocked in China :shock: .

“He can’t appear in the big newspapers because he says things that you can’t say,” a senior editor at a major party-run newspaper said. “You can’t challenge the system like that.”

A slightly round, bespectacled man with a shock of white hair, Mr. Zhang does not look like a radical. But his pronouncements are acerbic, reflecting his support for neoclassical economics in the mold of Milton Friedman, the Nobel Prize-winning free-market advocate who taught at the University of Chicago for decades.

“Before 2003, the idea of reform was dominant,” Mr. Zhang said in an interview last month. “Now it’s much harder to make that case.”

Challenging the system, Mr. Zhang contends, has been the key to China’s economic success. Today, he says, that would mean reducing the party’s control over important sectors of the economy. Over the past decade, state companies have maintained and expanded control over industries like automobiles, aviation, chemicals, energy, information technology, machinery, metals, steel and telecommunications.

Mainstream criticism of this trend, however, is limited. A Propaganda Ministry directive this year explicitly banned the term “monopoly” to describe state-owned enterprises. Journalists say they regularly have articles kept from publication if they discuss the deadening effect of state control over so many industries.

This contrasts with the first two decades of China’s economic opening, when the overall trend was toward relaxing state control, and pro-market economists were household names.

Mr. Zhang was a big part of this early effort to move away from communist-style state planning. Working for the influential State Commission for Reforming the Economic System, he was most famous — as a 24-year-old — for writing a paper that led to the replacement of state-designated prices with market prices, one of the landmarks of the 1980s reforms.

After the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre, the reform commission was downgraded, and market-oriented economists went on the defensive. Mr. Zhang went to Oxford to earn a Ph.D. with the Nobel Prize-winning economist James A. Mirrlees, but he returned to China just after Deng Xiaoping reignited economic reforms by taking on the Communist Party’s powerful left wing.

In 1994, Mr. Zhang co-founded the influential China Center for Economic Research at Peking University. In 1997, he moved to the university’s Guanghua management school and two years later was named dean.

His rise tracked a second era of economic liberalization. Mr. Deng brought in reformers like the now-retired President Jiang Zemin and Prime Minister Zhu Rongji to scale back state control, moves that eventually paid off with China joining the World Trade Organization in 2002.

But when they retired, replaced by Mr. Hu and Prime Minister Wen Jiabao, the atmosphere changed. Economic modernization was seen as causing social unrest, which rose steadily during the 2000s. In response, the country put in place a “stability maintenance” apparatus to tamp down criticism.

“Hu Jintao is more a follower of Mao Zedong,” said Mao Yushi, 83, a pro-reform economist who has been vilified during the past decade. “He doesn’t encourage too much discussion.”

Neither did Mr. Zhang’s university. “They began to speak of the need for a harmonious society,” Mr. Zhang said, referring to the watchword of the era of Mr. Hu and Mr. Wen. “Gradually people said you shouldn’t reform so much because you’re just causing trouble.”

Stymied in pursuing a more meritocratic approach at the university, Mr. Zhang began criticizing the government even more forcefully. Even though the economy was still roaring ahead, he began calling the 2000s a “lost decade.”

In late 2010, Mr. Zhang was relieved of his position and put on a two-year sabbatical. University officials declined to comment on his removal, but Chinese news media said at the time that it was because of his “radical” views.

His fate, he says, paralleled a growing belief within China’s leadership that it has little more to learn from the West, especially after the global financial crisis of 2008 and China’s success in riding it out. “We’re suddenly so important,” he says, with more than a touch of sarcasm in his voice. “Look at America. It has problems. We don’t have problems.”

Mr. Zhang acknowledges that he takes a purist’s approach to economic policy. Professor Li, at the China University of Politics and Law, agrees: “No politician could do as he says, but it’s important to have people speaking like that.”

Despite his setbacks, Mr. Zhang is convinced that his views will return to favor. The recent slowing of China’s economy shows that the country’s enormous stimulus package of 2008-9 was just a stopgap, he says. The expected incoming administration of Xi Jinping and Li Keqiang may not have articulated a way forward, but he says he believes the pendulum will inevitably swing back.

“When we had reform, people thought we had problems,” he said. “But now that we don’t have it, they see we need it.”


The parallels between the Hu-Wen "Clique" and the UPA I and UPAII govts in India are uncanny. The UPA too didn't want any reforms when the going was great, reforms weren't "needed" , and look at the mess they have landed the country in. China too is headed exactly the same way, but with the size of the bubble they blew up, it is going to be painful.


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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2012 06:37 
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BRFite

Joined: 21 Nov 2008 04:10
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Location: Bharathavarshey Bharathakhandey Jumbudweepey Kaveryaha Uttare Teerey
Christopher Sidor wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:
Guys,

You are talking to the CPC. Just to remind people, BRF is banned in Panda land. Has been for a looong time.

Actual Chinese people are some of the most simple and self effacing types one can meet, both in China & Abroad. They detest the CPC with a venom Indians can never match. I would hate for Indians to get the wrong impression of China & the Chinese based on the twisted paid for drones who post here. We have no issue with China & the Chinese, our problems are with Panda wonderland and the dark overlords.


+1
I agree. Most of us have nothing against the Chinese or China per see. What some of us have is a deep loathing for is CPC, its armed thugs, i.e. PLA/PLAN/PLAAF and offcourse the policy that CPC has adopted.




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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2012 07:27 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 31 Mar 2006 02:15
Posts: 4068
Location: MO,US,NCJ TN
Meanwhile update on Foxconn wages.....

The horror continues. At least on wages India & Panda Serf same same.. :lol: Some super power.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10182824
Quote:
...the average employee earns about 2,000 yuan per month ($295:£200), but the company pays 100,000 yuan compensation to the family of anyone dying on site.


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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2012 09:19 
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Joined: 05 Dec 2011 19:09
Posts: 56
Theo_Fidel wrote:
Meanwhile update on Foxconn wages.....

The horror continues. At least on wages India & Panda Serf same same.. :lol: Some super power.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10182824
Quote:
...the average employee earns about 2,000 yuan per month ($295:£200), but the company pays 100,000 yuan compensation to the family of anyone dying on site.


Mr. Theo_Fidel turned the clock back to 2010. So let't talk about something about Foxconn in 2010. First let's figure out how the pay was like then in India Foxconn. The sad truth was that the contract workers earned only Rs. 5,000 per month in Chennai Foxconn factory. BTW, Mr. Theo_Fidel ever pointed out out the Chennai workers were very productive.

Besides the underpay problem, many other horrible things were happening in Foxconn Chennai factory then. Guess who standed up for them? Ironically, not the Indian patriots like Mr. Theo_Fidel and other BRers. They turned a deaf ear to it and were busying crying for rights of the poor Chinese workers. It were the Hongkong people who said by chola were kind of racism against India lanched a large-scale protest when the India workers were arrested by India police.

Since Mr.Theo_Fidel is happy for Mummai Metro worker with salary of Rs.3000/month, Foxconn Chennai must be paradise in his India local standard.

It's a wonderful world, indeed.


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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2012 10:05 
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BRFite -Trainee

Joined: 05 Dec 2011 19:09
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In China, almost no one claims China as super power. If you do, you will be laughed at.
The average attitude towards China's development is :
1. China have been developing fast.
2. We still have a long and hard way to go.
Mr.Theo_Fidel seems to enjoy the game of making up a "fact" and then counter it to show how wise he is. Have you fun.

China's political system is closed but the society and mind are much more open than you guys expected. It seems India is just on the contrary.


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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2012 10:20 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 31 Mar 2006 02:15
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Location: MO,US,NCJ TN
Meanwhile in a sign of gratitude more employees jump to no where....

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/06/14/36 ... death.html

Foxconn employee jumps to death in southwest China

Quote:
At least a dozen Foxconn employees have jumped to their deaths or tried to do so since 2010, casting spotlight on the world's largest contract maker of electronics. The Taiwan-based company has been besieged with reports of poor working and living conditions for its workers at factories and dorms. The company installed nets in 2010 to prevent such deaths after the spate of suicides.


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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2012 11:19 
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Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
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Congrats Theo, that fact that dlones are targetting your posts by name means they've struck a chord with the handlers and then some....good going. :)


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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2012 14:21 
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BRFite

Joined: 08 Jan 2010 02:42
Posts: 283
Singha wrote:
the chinese re-education and confession extracting system is apparently called Shuanggui....people who run afoul of the CCP are run through this mill

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/15/world ... .html?_r=1
Quote:
One former propaganda bureau official from Zhejiang Province who was subjected to interrogation a decade ago said he spent nearly two months confined to a series of hotel rooms.
.
.
“In the end I was so exhausted, I agreed to all the accusations against me even though they were false,” said the man, 48, who asked for anonymity because he hopes one day to regain his government job.
So just how many propaganda bureau officials from a single province must have been through the system for this to offer any anonymity? :shock:


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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2012 22:16 
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BRFite

Joined: 10 Jun 2012 10:13
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Location: Gardish me hoon, aasman ka taara hoon.
Why the PRC economic bubble is essentially a Ponzi scheme.

http://realmoney.thestreet.com/articles/02/22/2012/china-has-become-ponzi-scheme

Given the magnitude of this fraud and the number of criminals involved, I am sure Madoff must have quite a few "Why Me?" moments in the slammer. :mrgreen:

BRF bhaiyon aur behnon ko pitr-divas ki shubhkamnayein.

Namaskar,

KL


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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2012 22:58 
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Wong, credit where credit is due. This was a good one. :rotfl:

Quote:
The US doesn't even dare go kick Iran and North Korea's ass and has trouble fighting illiterate Afghans who only have an AK-47 and one goat (Afghan MRE).


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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2012 23:19 
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Guys I misspoke. Apparently it is usually far less than 2,000 yuan even after all the 'increases'. My mistake.

Some super power, 30+ year leading economy, etc....

http://www.cfoworld.com/operations/3209 ... ages-china

Quote:
For workers in Shenzhen, a major manufacturing base for Foxconn, the increase raises monthly salaries to between 2200 yuan ($350) and 2500 yuan. Previously, monthly salaries for Foxconn's Shenzhen workers were at 1800 yuan.


Quote:
Foxconn workers' salaries also vary by location, Chan said. In the city of Zhengzhou, new Foxconn workers make an average monthly salary of 1,350 yuan, she said. "After the wage increase, it will be 1650 yuan," she said. "I think Foxconn is playing with the numbers."


Image
--------------------------------------------

HS, the credit should all go to Sha. He is the one who generously pointed out this little anomaly. His constant support and encouragement too has been crucial. May his kind live long and prosper.


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 01:27 
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Location: Gardish me hoon, aasman ka taara hoon.
^^^^

Damn, those kids sure look too young. The "Rove" is showing on their faces.

KL


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 02:02 
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BRFite

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Location: Gardish me hoon, aasman ka taara hoon.
On the Kleptocrats of Pandaland:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-26/china-s-billionaire-lawmakers-make-u-s-peers-look-like-paupers.html

Quote:
The net worth of the 70 richest delegates in China’s National People’s Congress, which opens its annual session on March 5, rose to 565.8 billion yuan ($89.8 billion) in 2011, a gain of $11.5 billion from 2010....In all levels of the system there seem to be local officials in cahoots with entrepreneurs, enriching themselves...


Now India's UPA/Congress leading lights may not exactly be "poor sons of the soil" either, but that is nothing compared to the above.

Good day,

KL


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 09:26 
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Looks like the local CPC leader washed those T-shirts along with his dye leaching lal-chaddi..... pink color et al.


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 09:54 
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Joined: 26 Feb 2004 12:31
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I have been on this forum 8 years, right from 2004. During all these years, so many debates have been finished between Indian contributors and the "panda drones". Of course, the Indian contributors won all the debates, without any exceptions.

Among them, 2 big battles remembered me the most.

1) In 2005, a big debate had been there, whether the Chinese economy was in fact as big as India in the past year of 2004.
Of course, Indian friends won. Because "the Shanghai statistics, xxxx, xxxx,", in fact Chinese economy was not larger than India despite the official data of twice GDP by then. China would soon collapse because of the over investment, empty expressways, ghost town of Pudong in the largest Chinese city of Shanghai, ......., thus India will catch up soon "within 1 or 2 years", the Indian contributors concluded.

2) In 2012, another big debate has been here, whether Chinese economy in 2004 was in fact as big as India in 2012.
Of course, Indian friends won once. Because "the Shanghai statistics, xxxx, xxxx,", in fact Chinese economy in 2004 was not larger than India in 2012, despite the fact of an inflating US dollar. And China would soon collapse because the over investment, empty high speed trains, ghost town of Ordos (albeit 99% of Chinese have no idea where the remote town is), ......., thus India will catch up soon "within 10 or 20 years", the Indian contributors concluded.

It is really interesting and it is the reason why i have been here for all the 8 years long.


Last edited by wrdos on 18 Jun 2012 11:32, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 10:02 
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Indians have been in this forum for 60 years


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 14:31 
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hnair wrote:
All US officials from Prez Obama keeps saying they 1) they don't like India 2) shower pakistan with daily dose of drone-missiles of love and hugs China by giving India those C17s, P8Is, carrier landing tech..... and the rest of the horrible stuff.

We desperately need PekingENIS thread to dissect these profundities


Please check the prices your country pays for things like the C17s. They are the highest in the world. Higher than rich countries like Saudi Arabia. Pakistan gets the "friend price" or free (military aid). India pays the rip-off price.

hnair wrote:
Taking that joke about RG being the architect of outsourcing further. So in drone-speak, who is the architect of manufacturing shift to China? Dalai Llama?


It surprises me that the Indian commoner is so quick to abandon Rajat, a man that has done so much for India. Hell, I wish there was a Chinese Rajat that has personally channeled billions of business and humanitarian dollars to China. At least your Indian elites and tycoons agrees with me and knows Rajat's immense contributions to India.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/be74ee2a ... z1y3ROcc7r


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 14:47 
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Wong Without Overseas Chinese, Chinese miracle and FDI funneling into China would have never happenned.


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 16:32 
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BRFite

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Location: Gardish me hoon, aasman ka taara hoon.
wong wrote:
Please check the prices your country pays for things like the C17s. They are the highest in the world. Higher than rich countries like Saudi Arabia. Pakistan gets the "friend price" or free (military aid). India pays the rip-off price.


Some serious heartburn about India being able to partner with the US "legally" to obtain military technology, rather than having to take the chinese route of "obtaining" such technology by fraud and cheating ?

The reason why the price is apparently "higher" is - apart from customized technology - the 30%+ offset clause. In other words, India gets a large amount of technology assistance and significant local production by Indian companies. The long-term benefits are well worth it.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/policy/india-to-buy-more-than-16-c-17-airlifters/articleshow/8850290.cms

Quote:
A key advantage of the offsets under this programme is assistance by Boeing to set up an approximately $500 million engine-testing wind tunnel for jet engines with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The air chief said that this project should go a long way in helping Indian scientists develop jet engines.


Arabs neither require - nor can handle - technology offsets, and hence buy off the shelf. And the PLAAF (currently operating a primitive transport fleet) neither can handle such an infusion of technology nor can ever get access to it. Bad luck!

Quote:
It surprises me that the Indian commoner is so quick to abandon Rajat, a man that has done so much for India.


It surprises me that Panda drones have such a high "concern" for Gupta and the "Indian commoner". Since you did not read before, I will repeat for the benefit of your thick skull:

(A) Gupta is not an Indian anymore and needs to obey the legal system in his adopted country,
(B) India is much too big to be unduly affected/influenced by one businessman's philanthropy (or excesses), and
(C) By your Panda-brain logic, the Manhattan federal attorney prosecuting Gupta is also an "Indian commoner". Maybe all that is going on here is that ordinary citizens are respecting the rule of law, unlike whatever whacked-out "loyalty issues" you harbor after your commie-school training program.

Quote:
Hell, I wish there was a Chinese Rajat that has personally channeled billions of business and humanitarian dollars to China.


Hell and back, as it turns there are literally *hundreds* of expat Chinese who have personally channeled billions to Pandaland:

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/item/48061-chinese-are-chinas-strength.html?tmpl=component&print=1

Similarly, Indians remit billions of dollars back to India every year. It is not only one Gupta or Agrawal. Gupta's contributions are well appreciated, but nobody is above the rule of law (unless he happens to be in China and well-connected to the CPC/PLA). Maybe after Gupta comes out of prison, India may play a role in his "rehabilitation".

Again, you are not helping your country's cause much by the quality of your posts here. You are helping promote a sorry caricature of the "Chinese commoner" that is not impressive at all. Before worrying about the "Indian commoner", do yourself and China a favor and try not to be such a dork.

Good day,

KL


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 21:07 
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Wong has a point about a possible NoKo regime change attracting away some FDI from India.

W.German firms invested heavily in the former East after the reunification. I remember some German businessman saying a few years ago that in the 90s German firms did not invest heavily in India cause they were setting up operations in the former East.

Also, NoKo is supposed to have one of the lowest skilled labor rates in the world (even lower than China's!). So the scenario is somewhat plausible. That being said, China's FDI could also be negatively affected.


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 21:34 
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"China's FDI would be affected" ? The Politburo Standing Committee would brown its collective pants inside Zhongnanhai at the thought of the US at their borders again, 60 years after they sent human waves across the border to prevent just that eventuality. Not to mention the PSC would face significant internal turmoil from the pro-PLA faction (Jiang's old clique) demanding more influence, money and weapons for PLA, in contradiction to Hu's effort to have the 'Young Communists' clique gain more power within PSC.

The single most important reason NoKo will not develop into a fantasy economic giant as wong suggests is that China does not want it; they'll have no control over a NoKo growing under US+SoKo influence right beside their capital region. They're perfectly happy to have a pliable fat Kim-midget run the place and maintain an Orwellian buffer state between them and a vastly economically superior SoKo (in comparison to NoKo).


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 21:40 
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Advait wrote:
Wong has a point about a possible NoKo regime change attracting away some FDI from India.

W.German firms invested heavily in the former East after the reunification. I remember some German businessman saying a few years ago that in the 90s German firms did not invest heavily in India cause they were setting up operations in the former East.

Also, NoKo is supposed to have one of the lowest skilled labor rates in the world (even lower than China's!). So the scenario is somewhat plausible. That being said, China's FDI could also be negatively affected.


Chinese foreign policy would be shot to pieces. The "negative effect on FDI" would be nothing compared to that. What next? If Pakistan reforms, they might well pull US FDI away from India as well. It would be highly undesirable for India, but how desirable would that be for China? Wong-sir is shooting himself in the foot, gloating about how US FDI from India is going to go to N. Korea. China herself will fight tooth and nail against that eventuality.


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 21:49 
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^^^^

China has no control over NoKo. It's not even very influential these days. The North Koreans do what they want. If the North Koreans get smart and reform, China couldn't stop it with mythical human waves or not.


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 21:56 
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Aditya_V wrote:
Wong Without Overseas Chinese, Chinese miracle and FDI funneling into China would have never happenned.


True, but the "overseas Chinese" (myself included) is an amalgam of millions and 30 different nationalities and socio-economic groups. Rajat Gupta was one man.

Just one example of how I wished there had been a Chinese Rajat. Louis Gerstner didn't choose India randomly. His fellow HBS/McKinsey alum, Rajat, played an advisory role in that decision. Today, IBM employs over 100,000 high paying, high quality Indian jobs in no small part because of Rajat. And that is but just one example off the top of my head.


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 22:01 
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If NoKo decide to spurn China for the US+SoKo combine, there'll be a regime change in Pyongyang the next morning scripted by Beijing, with another fresh line of beloved leaders being initiated, if not just a military junta.

NoKo under the US umbrella would be fantastic news for India (and for Taiwan) - it would direct Chinese political and military energy into the northeast Bohai Sea area for a long time.


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 22:33 
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It always baffles me that China is comfortable with demented, unstable, nuclear states on its border but not prosperous liberal democracies. It has trouble with every single liberal democracy on its border and around the world. Tells one a lot, Nah!


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 23:08 
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Suraj wrote:
If NoKo decide to spurn China for the US+SoKo combine, there'll be a regime change in Pyongyang the next morning scripted by Beijing, with another fresh line of beloved leaders being initiated, if not just a military junta.

NoKo under the US umbrella would be fantastic news for India (and for Taiwan) - it would direct Chinese political and military energy into the northeast Bohai Sea area for a long time.


Suraj, Kim Il-Sung exiled/executed the pro-China, Yunan faction in the Korean Worker'sParty in 1958. China has been trying to persuade North Korea to reform for at least a decade to no avail.

I think a reformed North Korea would be huge for the economies of the entire region. Many Chinese think tanks are beginning to think this way. Simply put, North Korea in its present state, is just bad for business.


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PostPosted: 18 Jun 2012 23:27 
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wong, if China wanted NoKo to reform it will reform; when an 800lb gorilla asks a mouse to jump, it answers 'how high'. 'China has been trying to persuade NoKo to reform' sounds nice and soothing, and the kind of drivel that gets peddled on economist or foreignpolicy.com to convince the west accordingly. Something on the lines of 'Pakistan had been trying to persuade Bin Laden to wear an Uncle Sam outfit and eat apple pie when Team 6 parachuted in'.

The Kim dynasty has been anachronistic for about half a century now. NoKo is clearly a cats paw to keep Japan and SoKo on their toes, and give China avenues to negotiate, while peddling the faux hapless 'we've been trying to convince Kim onlee' spiel.

Like I said, I would love to see NoKo become a US client state. That would be a fantastic strategic change in the East Asian quadrant, and would be welcomed with open arms in New Delhi and Taipei (at least in the Pan Green circles). It would keep Beijing in turmoil for a long time, and affect the composition and priorities of the PSC.


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 00:18 
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Theo_Fidel wrote:
It always baffles me that China is comfortable with demented, unstable, nuclear states on its border but not prosperous liberal democracies. It has trouble with every single liberal democracy on its border and around the world. Tells one a lot, Nah!


It's about control. The neighborhood that China is immediately interested in is the Indian subcontinent, Japan, Korea, Russia. To control this area, they need unstable states as neighbors to their adversaries. If that means, owing to geographical constraints, that these unstable states also have to be China's neighbors, then so be it. Once they get India/Russia/Japan/S. Korea/Vietnam to fall in line with their worldview, and focus on farther corners of the globe, they will then join up with dictators in Africa/S. America etc. and try and promote democracy in the neighborhood of China.

Compare and contrast with the USA, which is secure in its neighborhood. So they try and get Mexico to be stable and democratic. However, for the rest of the world, the US has a different policy - they've been far more comfortable dealing with rogue states, than genuine democracies. Democracies are subject to political winds. Rogue states tend to remain in the control of whatever dictator is able to grab power. So if you ensure that this dictator is your man, you've got it made for the lifetime of the dictator.

I'm sure you know all this - I'm not really lecturing you. I'm a noob in geopolitics myself. Just pointing it out for readers/lurkers who may be less clued in than I am, even. China and the US are both manipulative states, which are striving to grab the lion's share of the world's resources for themselves, and maybe their cronies. They truly deserve each other.


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 01:04 
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Very good points sudarshan. Using a faux unstable nuclear power is an excellent approach on PRCs part to deal with stable, reasonable democratic states. It lets them work behind the scenes manipulating and forcing the democratic states to devote time and energy to handling the craziness of the loose cannon state, while appearing enlightened and moderate themselves.

That NoKo is clearly a PRC client can be seen from the fact that they NEVER act against PRC. They can go shoot some pro-PRC communists, but then PRC was willing to lose a million grunts in Korea back in 1950-53, so they don't exactly value life, as wong readily admits. All NoKo actions have been against Japan and SoKo - sinking ships, firing missiles, the works.

NoKo can be seen to be working against PRC when they start attacking and sinking PLAN vessels and firing No Dongs at Beijing and Tianjin. Then we can all agree that NoKo is no longer in the PRC orbit... for the few moments before the PRC vaporises them.


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 01:26 
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Sudarshan,

Thanx for explaining in detail what some of us suspect but can rarely find explicit evidence for.
----------------------------------------------

Continuing on the bafflement theme, the #1 beneficiary of the current peace and calm is Panda itself. Yet it goes out of its way to destroy peace through every demented means possible.

Wong, is merely beating out the CPC 'peaceful rise' party line in an attempt to lull/anesthetize us during the attack..


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 01:57 
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Location: Gardish me hoon, aasman ka taara hoon.
This whole discussion on DPR-Korea is only for the purpose of "re"-"re-educating" chinese commies and pinkos reading this thread.

It is obvious to any sane individual that the chance of PRC wanting DPR-Korea to become a liberalized and stable state is about the same as the PRC wanting the Pawkee Nation to become stable and democratic. Either (or both) events would be disastrous to the CPC/PLA in their attempts to "contain" Bharat on one front and the USA-ROC-ROK-Japan combine on the other.

The PRC's support for DPR-Korea and the Pawkee Nation are due to very "base" instincts of fear and insecurity. Both the Indian Ocean and the Pacific, already nearly-"lost causes" for the PLA, will be forever freed from the communist chinese menace. Akhand Bharat - stretching from the Persian Gulf to Indonesia and from Tibet to Antarctica - will only be accelerated.

Mafias and goons like the CPC/PLA are not capable of being world leaders, and never will be. So as the poster Chola keeps repeating, we in Bharat wish the CPC and PLA a long and "successful" innings in running down China and bankrupting it economically, culturally, and politically.

Have a great day,

Kishen Lal


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 02:22 
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Suraj wrote:
NoKo can be seen to be working against PRC when they start attacking and sinking PLAN vessels and firing No Dongs at Beijing and Tianjin. Then we can all agree that NoKo is no longer in the PRC orbit... for the few moments before the PRC vaporises them.


Not a good test. NoKo doesn't attack the US either even though they are technically at war. I believe the last time was in 1976 during the axe incident. It attacks South Korea because it knows it can get away with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident

You'll find that North Korea is crazy, but not crazy enough to attack either China or the US. It doesn't mean either country controls North Korea.


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 02:34 
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wong wrote:

Please check the prices your country pays for things like the C17s. They are the highest in the world. Higher than rich countries like Saudi Arabia. Pakistan gets the "friend price" or free (military aid). India pays the rip-off price.


The world wants good stuff, they pay a good price and buy it from its makers. Not do weird creepy stuff like your military does.

Now Saudi Arabia did not get a neat little testing facility did it? You need to read a bit more about Indian defense offsets policies, before getting excited for pakis and waiting like a beggar-kingpin who goes through the days' pickings that the pakis bring in.

Quote:
It surprises me that the Indian commoner is so quick to abandon Rajat, a man that has done so much for India. Hell, I wish there was a Chinese Rajat that has personally channeled billions of business and humanitarian dollars to China. At least your Indian elites and tycoons agrees with me and knows Rajat's immense contributions to India.


Shree Rajat Gupta is considered a good person by most who know him, so when he has done his time, he will still have friends. But that has nothing to do with what he does in his official capacity. It has been found by the US justice system that Shree Rajat Gupta agreed to play by certain rules, but did not. It does not matter if he adopted Hello Kitty from an orphanage or lined the pockets of everyone from Raisina Hill to Capitol Hill. He is answerable if he breached contracts, because he is supposed to know better. Does not matter who supports him, unlike in your country.

Indian commoner can discern such nuances, when it comes to folks who got convicted, but still bounced back and redeemed themselves. No gulag crap or eternal damnation like poor Shree Zhao Ziyang.

As for your belaboring about "Rajat Gupta invented Indian IT". sure.


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 02:37 
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And yet, when there's a crisis in the peninsula, Pyongyang goes to Beijing for consultations, not Washington DC. Just the recent 'ICBM's (painted dummies though) of theirs were demoed upon Chinese TELARs. Of course, China predictably claimed they had no idea it would be used for military purposes :wink:

I've got to hand it to China - they've got a very cool con job going on in DPRK, telling the west they're actually trying to get Pyongyang to reform. Either that or the west nods and laughs at the whole notion behind closed doors.

Having dealt with one client of yours to our west, we're about the last people you can convince they Pyongyang isn't Beijing's puppet on a chain. Too much evidence to the contrary.


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 02:43 
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C'mon Suraj, historically, Pakistan has been as much (if not more) a US client than a Chinese client state. Together they defeated the Soviets in Afghanistan and helped bring an end to the cold war.


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 02:51 
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wong wrote:
C'mon Suraj, historically, Pakistan has been as much (if not more) a US client than a Chinese client state. Together they defeated the Soviets in Afghanistan and helped bring an end to the cold war.


1) The US didn't supply Pak with nuclear weapons and India-specific missiles, China did
2) The US doesn't have foot-soldiers in Gilgit-Baltistan, China does

Much more can be added to this list. But it's true that Pak is much beholden to the US - it was so sweet, that coalition they had going to defeat the Soviets and establish democracy and brotherly love (read any way you please) in Afghanistan. Also, nice to hear a Chinese admit that Pak is a Chinese client state (if only indirectly).


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PostPosted: 19 Jun 2012 02:58 
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Pakistan allies with anyone who:
* Is Islamic (KSA)
* a rival of India (PRC, US during cold war)
* hands them $$ and weapons (PRC, US)
Who is more or less anything is a matter of the circumstances of the moment.

The DPRK regime exists because of Beijing, period. They serve the strategic buffer of keeping the US away from the border of China. The only reason they don't act against the US directly is that there's an ocean separating the two - by attacking SoKo or Japan they're attacking US interests. There's nothing even close to the DMZ on the PRC/DPRK border.

It is very much in India's interests to see the current DPRK fatso choke on his kimchi and for the US to walk in with SoKo and unify it into a pro-US entity. In one stroke it would put the US/Korean defence positions in a zone covering an arc that encompasses Beijing, Tianjin, Shenyang, Qingdao and a whole bunch of northern Chinese cities, in addition to the ability to monitor the Yellow Sea and East China Sea better.

It would be very interesting to see how much PRC paid the Philippine senate to vote against ratifying the extension of the Subic Bay deal with USN in 1992; the Aquinos were strongly pro-extension. I wouldn't be surprised if the current Philippine regime invites the US back to Subic and Clark bases.


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