Fencing Riverine Borders

[muraliravi]

Gurus,

I want to see if anyone here has any insights into how a riverine border between 2 countries (like India and Bangladesh) can be fenced.

The current strategy of using a boat patrol is very ineffective.

I have some experience as a civil engineer (especially with geotech and hydraulics). I was thinking if we can have a steel bridge over the river act as a fence. We can have enough piers (nicely aligned) and have a nice strong cross wire barrier connected between every pair of piers so that water can go through, but nothing else (no raft or boat stands any chance of sneaking through).

Our river border stretches are not too long at every location (overall we have a lot), but every stretch is small (max will be 7 kms). So it is not a big task to have one done considering the long bridges that have been built of late. Regarding the piers (foundations), we can go quite deep these days. Erosion wont be an issue if we drill deep for these piers.

We can have the height of the piers (and hence the base of the bridge top section) at a height where it wont get flooded. That way it is easy to have a good portion of the wire barriers above water most of the time. The bridge can serve as a huge transport option in WB and Assam. Probably it can be connected to the border fence road directly to make it one full grid.

Any other ideas.

[muraliravi]

[panduranghari]

Some images of the current fences

http://elizabethrush.net/http___elizabe ... adesh.html

[Neshant]

Simplest way, put a dam on the river.

It would control flooding in Bangladesh, it would generate power for India, it would slow down the rate of illegal immigration.

Also how about more active strategy (instead of passive defences) of using drones to patrol the area and then directing patrol boats to intercept.

Eventually all of India's borders should be droned with persistent stare technology. I don't see any other way to cover vast areas of land & sea.

[Rahul Mehta]

My first and last post in this thread.

There is NO need to put any fence on borders to stop infiltrators.

Once we have the TRIVIAL procedures in place to prove/disprove whether a person is bonafide citizen and bonafide refugee, we can stop infiltrators. And proving/disproving whether a person is Bangldeshi or not is TRIVIAL.

The fence was started by ABV to create a fog that he is doing something to stop Bangladeshi, while in reality he wanted to do nothing

[SBajwa]

Believe it or not!! Bangladesh must be merged back to India there is no other option. Sooner it is done the better it will be for everybody.

[Shanmukh]

Gurus,

I want to see if anyone here has any insights into how a riverine border between 2 countries (like India and Bangladesh) can be fenced.

The current strategy of using a boat patrol is very ineffective.

I have some experience as a civil engineer (especially with geotech and hydraulics). I was thinking if we can have a steel bridge over the river act as a fence. We can have enough piers (nicely aligned) and have a nice strong cross wire barrier connected between every pair of piers so that water can go through, but nothing else (no raft or boat stands any chance of sneaking through).

Our river border stretches are not too long at every location (overall we have a lot), but every stretch is small (max will be 7 kms). So it is not a big task to have one done considering the long bridges that have been built of late. Regarding the piers (foundations), we can go quite deep these days. Erosion wont be an issue if we drill deep for these piers.

We can have the height of the piers (and hence the base of the bridge top section) at a height where it wont get flooded. That way it is easy to have a good portion of the wire barriers above water most of the time. The bridge can serve as a huge transport option in WB and Assam. Probably it can be connected to the border fence road directly to make it one full grid.

Any other ideas.

MuraliRavi-ji,
There may be one problem with the solution. Not in terms of practicality - I am sure you have factored it well enough, being a civil engineer, but in terms of offending the wildlife enthusiasts. Many of the north eastern rivers, and north Indian rivers have migratory aquatic life that move from as far north east as Golaghat in Assam or as far west as Varanasi right down to the Bay of Bengal. Your bridge would also obstruct their migration patterns, for some, even their life cycle patterns. You can expect some other aquatic wildlife Medha Patkar, backed by Arvind Kejriwals, to sit in front of your proposed bridges holding a placard. However, if you can think of a solution to this problem, and appease the wildlife enthusiasts, then, I cannot see any problem.

[Bade]

Believe it or not!! Bangladesh must be merged back to India there is no other option. Sooner it is done the better it will be for everybody.

I have always supported this idea, but here in BRF there is little traction for it. It makes sense from all points of view, mostly strategic. Why it was not done in 1971 itself eludes me. There is no fencing that will stop the migration.

[Supratik]

The Bdesh elite is a watered down version of the Pak elite basically an amalgamation of descendents of foreign invaders/settlers and upper caste converts. They look down upon Hindus in a similar fashion and fear Hindu domination. They have practiced one of the longest silent ethnic cleansings in modern history even after Hindus gave them freedom. So any voluntary merging into India is a pipe-dream. They are not even providing transit to the NE or allowing Indian investments. Becoz they fear Hindus will control their economy and hence their country. What B has said is correct in that we should have negotiated control of CHT in exchange for Bdesh freedom in 1971. While no fence can totally block migration 100% a good one is going to make it more difficult and reduce volumes.

[Supratik]

MuraliRavi-ji,
There may be one problem with the solution. Not in terms of practicality - I am sure you have factored it well enough, being a civil engineer, but in terms of offending the wildlife enthusiasts. Many of the north eastern rivers, and north Indian rivers have migratory aquatic life that move from as far north east as Golaghat in Assam or as far west as Varanasi right down to the Bay of Bengal. Your bridge would also obstruct their migration patterns, for some, even their life cycle patterns. You can expect some other aquatic wildlife Medha Patkar, backed by Arvind Kejriwals, to sit in front of your proposed bridges holding a placard. However, if you can think of a solution to this problem, and appease the wildlife enthusiasts, then, I cannot see any problem.

I see the bridge-fence on stilts. So should not block migration of aquatic life.

[muraliravi]

MuraliRavi-ji,
There may be one problem with the solution. Not in terms of practicality - I am sure you have factored it well enough, being a civil engineer, but in terms of offending the wildlife enthusiasts. Many of the north eastern rivers, and north Indian rivers have migratory aquatic life that move from as far north east as Golaghat in Assam or as far west as Varanasi right down to the Bay of Bengal. Your bridge would also obstruct their migration patterns, for some, even their life cycle patterns. You can expect some other aquatic wildlife Medha Patkar, backed by Arvind Kejriwals, to sit in front of your proposed bridges holding a placard. However, if you can think of a solution to this problem, and appease the wildlife enthusiasts, then, I cannot see any problem.

I see the bridge-fence on stilts. So should not block migration of aquatic life.

That was my thought too Nagesh ji, It should not affect it much. The aquatic life can pass through the slits quite easily.

For people who think fence cannot stop migration, c'mon this is not 15th century where we are building 2 ft wooden fences. Fence is a must and it can stop illegal immigration if it is built well with a futuristic mindset. You can put laws and expel people. That will surely reduce the intent of people wanting to come in. Combined with a good fence and furious deportation of people, we can almost bring it to zero.

Regarding merging b'desh in india. First of all they are ridiculously dense, (small area, too many people), india surely does not need that. What India needs is countries like Nepal, bhutan or afghanistan which are sparsely populated. Next, if you can create hindu missionaries that can convert b'desh to dharmic fold in 50 years, work on that first and then we can talk of merger. Even then i would not advocate it simply becos they are so densely populated.

[member_28468]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxBa5bQfTGc[/youtube]in my opinion fencing is not a good option insted active drone coverage and lethal wepons (like some gatling guns ) with good sensor will be expansive but permanent solution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxBa5bQfTGc

[deejay]

X-posting from the Illegal Immigration - Ideas for the New Government

_________

Excellent move:

http://www.theindependentbd.com/index.p ... Itemid=121

India plans special fence on rivers, water bodies

India is planning to build a special type of fence on the rivers and wetlands along its border with Bangladesh, where it is not possible to erect barbed wire fences, in a bid to prevent smuggling, intrusion and increase border security. India has started talks with experts from Singapore to learn from their experience in using floating drums to form barriers to prevent illegal migrants on boats from entering the island state. A BBC report on Sunday night said the move follows a recent statement by the Indian Home Minister Rajnath Singh in parliament that the country wants to plug its missing links on the fence along its 4,096.7km border with Bangladesh.
Only 3,326 km of this border now has barbed wire fencing. Delhi now wants to seal the gaps using experience and expertise of Singapore.
Nehchal Sandhu, deputy security adviser of India, recently told its Border Security Force (BSF) that India wants to have an integrated border management system with sensors installed on the borders alongside the fencing to have a full proof, secure border.

This is exactly what I have been pushing for long. This whole notion that riverine borders cannot be fenced is utter nonsense. Very good move.

plus this,

http://www.allbanglanewspaper.com/after ... adesh.html

After the wire fence now India’s fence in rivers and canals in the border of Bangladesh

In the wetlands of India-Bangladesh border where barbed-wire fence couldn’t be implanted for a long time, there India has initiated to put a special kind of fence over water just like Singapore.

Home Minister Rajnath Singh said recently in the parliament that, government wanted to finish the unfinished work of fencing as quickly as possible – and then India started to talk with the experts of Singapore.

Singapore said they had been successful at stop the illegal immigrants with the special kind of fence in the sea – Government officials of India said, they want to apply a similar method to stop infiltration and smuggling from Bangladesh.

In 2003, the island state Singapore made a long wall along their Pulao Ubin beach so that the illegal immigrant’s boat cannot push back to their cost. After that they align a floating drum wall in the sea of Pasir Ris beach of Singapore.

Although this doesn’t have an aesthetic view, but the authorities claimed this kind of barrier is very effective to prevent immigrants. Now Indian government thinks, if they can put this kind of wall in many areas of Bangladeshi border, it will help to prevent infiltration.

Indian Home Minister Rajnath Singh sad in the first day of the budget session of the current Parliament, their target is to complete the work of fencing in the border which are still to be set.

Mr. Singh said, “The total length of India-Bangladesh is 4096.7 km, but of them, Cabinet Committee on Security approved a proposal of fencing 3326 km. Of them, all work is done except 501 km, along 130 km fence setup work is running rapidly.”

‘But they are in problem for setting up fence in the rest of the areas which are full of rivers, lakes and wetlands; Home Minister admitted it in the Parliament. In fact, the nature of India-Bangladesh border is like that the river or wetlands in many places set the border between two countries, so as a result it is impossible to setting up normal fence there.

But BBC came to know that, when Home Minister gave a statement in Parliament, in the same time government of India already started talks with Singapore – in order to apply their special immigration-skid marine hedge model in this state of rivers and wetlands.

A few weeks ago, Tribal Security Adviser Nehchal Sandhu said in the annual event of Indian Border Security Force BSF that, the gap made in the wire fence due to the rivers and wetlands in the border maybe it could b filled by the experience of Singapore, who have set migration-proof fence in the sea.

He further said, ‘we want an integrated border management system as part of that sensor will be placed in the border along with the fence – and the information has to provide to the nearest border posts that are being caught with the sensor.’

Indian Home ministry officials agreed that it was quite difficult and expensive to set fence in the swamp places of the border modelled like Singapore. This cost could be twice or even three times than setting up such common wire fence.

But intelligence sources claimed, India had no way to stop invoice of drug or counterfeit notes even the travel of members of militant groups without fencing the loopholes in the border.

... and even this,

Please see the below article (please read in full, very detailed awesome article, I am posting highlights)

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/india/saura ... ml?classic

The Indian Military looks East
Thursday , August 07, 2014 at 20 : 05

Given that India's East is set for rapid economic growth in the years ahead even as it serves as a beachhead for closer integration with ASEAN, it is clear that the Indian military's profile in the region is being raised to serve as a backstop for a new security framework that can neutralize threats ranging from conventional war to illegal immigration. The state of West Bengal (WB) given its location is the natural 'pivot' for this component of India's 'look east' policy.

Panagarh is ultimately the centre piece of a whole new web of military infrastructure that is being built on either side of the Siliguri corridor as we can see above. Apart from serving as nodes to strategically support the MSC these multi-use military facilities also have something to do with the fact that the Indian establishment now has a deep suspicion of Bangladeshi aims as well. Bangladesh has been involved in a flurry of bilaterals with the Chinese and the Bangladeshi Army (BA) has in recent times conducted exercises that are suggestive of an offensive posture aimed at disrupting India's connectivity with the North East via the Siliguri Corridor.

Naturally new military facilities in this region will give the Indian Republic an upper hand in tending to 'neighbourly' relations with Bangladesh. And unsurprisingly a lot of the MSC support structure facilities will be based in and around this area including upstream in Purnea, Bihar which already hosts an IAF base and is also being targeted by Bangladesh's DGFI and Pakistan's ISI in a joint move for disruptive aims. New Indian military bastions in the region should serve to facilitate both intelligence and Special Forces operations to completely neutralize any such 'joint move'.

With the rise of Narendra Modi to the helm of Indian affairs, the DGFI's 'strategic' demographic subversion plan is now more or less in shambles as illegal immigration from Bangladesh will no longer be tolerated. In a desperate bid to up the ante, it is known that Bangladeshi intelligence networks have shifted their focus to the riverine channels in South Bengal as a modern fence network comes up along other parts of the India-Bangladesh border. Naturally a final settlement of exclaves/enclaves on the border will help expedite this network further.

The focus of pushing-in illegals into India is now almost certainly the natural riverine network in the Sunderbans and the Midnapore coast just west of it. This region is also being targeted for pushing in arms and subversive elements in addition to the usual trafficking of cattle and drugs. Obviously the South WB situation has made it imperative for the Indian Coast Guard (ICG) to greatly increase its activities in this area with the construction of new stations and basing of substantive assets. An example of the same would be the new ICG station at Fraserganj that will host two hovercrafts to begin with.

India on its part has realized that the era of leaving the Bangladesh border to the simple management of the Border Security Force (BSF) will not suffice and a military backstop is needed. The raised Indian security posture in this environment is in itself a great deterrent to other major powers responding substantially to Bangladeshi overtures.

Well it all makes sense now as to why the MHA is fencing riverine borders on warfooting. Take a look at the map of the indo-bangla border, all the way from the bay of bengal keep moving up along the border line, upto shantiganj it is just riverine (approx 110 kms when i measured it). Thats exactly the sunderbans and vicinity. The good news is, this floating drums are a good way in tandem with IA and IN to really tighten the screws. But in the meanwhile, we should look for even better ways than the floating drums.

Also, I am not sure how many of you know that in the budget the border fence got 5 times the usual allocation (http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140711/j ... 603134.jsp)

[Rishirishi]

Why fence the entire river. Rather fence off 500 meters inside India. Select farmers can be allowed to use the river front.

[muraliravi]

Why fence the entire river. Rather fence off 500 meters inside India. Select farmers can be allowed to use the river front.

Rishi,

Go to India's census in 2011 and see the population density in these border districts. You will be surprised as to how high it is. Fencing 500 meters inside India's territory means we have to do 2 things

1. Either relocate all these people inside the fence. (We have about 700 kms of riverine border. Fencing 1/2 km inside means 350 sq km. The pop density is about 700 per sq km in all these areas. Maybe more, just check. WB itself have very high density compared to India overall). So you are talking about relocating 2.5 lac people or about 60K households. Do you really think Mamta will allow that or will the people be ready.

2. The other option is to declare these are army controlled border districts and forcibly fence 500 meters inside. This means 2.5 lac people will be in no mans land and considering the high mullah pop in these areas, that 500 meters will be annexed by b'desh in no time.

Option 2 will also not be very easy even if you want to give up 500 meters. Lots of protests will happen. Riverine fencing with drum fences is quite effective and will cut out most of the illegals if complemented well by good fencing in non-riverine areas.

[negi]

Why fence the entire river. Rather fence off 500 meters inside India. Select farmers can be allowed to use the river front.

Rivers do not flow along the border but across it , then there are marshes and wetlands. We cannot get around the option of fencing rivers.